Get 100% MORE damage by animation cancelling

Sorbin

It's been here since the inception, and it's here to stay. Every attempt that ZOS has made to curb animation cancelling has lead to a sluggish, less responsive outcome that has pleased no one.

And calling it an exploit is just silly. Games are very often shaped by emergent gameplay that developers didn't fully understand even when developing the game. Strafe jumping wasn't intended in Quake, but it's a core component of the game. Wavedashing wasn't intended in Smash Brothers Melee; the game still has a very loyal following to this day and is regarded as the peak of competitive Smash.

I get that latency can make it frustrating, but that's sort of the glaring issue that haunts most every aspect of this game as it is. If anyone is envisioning an ESO with long, Dark Souls-style commitment to animations, I simply don't ever see it happening properly in this game.

hackdrag0n

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Weather ZOS admits it or not; LA weaving is intended at this point. A few sets would be rendered usless.

LA sharing the same GCD as skills would also make light attacks usless in general. No one would ever use them again.

Not just dead sets but also rip nightblades. Akaif you can only que one action at a time, even if they're on separate cool down timers.

Seems to me this is the main problem that people have who can't weave: They try to que la and action too closely to each other for the game to register both of them. If they could get the game to register the overlap and still have block, dodge, bar swap over ride them a lot more people might be able to weave.

ThePedge

Merforum wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

100% more damage? Yikes. You are assuming people use a light attack instead of an actual skill. I think it would be more accurate to assume people would either light attack weave or just use skills with no light attacks. If you are someone who is actually light attacking instead of using skills (as in the second equation), you would get way more damage by just leaving out light attacks altogether and just using skills. While light attacks comprise a large portion of damage for those who light attack weave (since you are doing one along with each skill), they are quite weak if you use them in place of a skill.

Actually with literally everyone in the world telling everyone they have to light attack in between each skill, everyone is at least trying to do it. But that actually makes it even worse because when you are doing LA too fast it doesn't even register and sometimes the skill doesn't register. I usually lose DPS when I play that way. I found with my playstyle on basically all builds, I am better off doing 3-4 skills with Heavy and repeat.

What you are pointing out is the reason WHY they need to fix this, it is creating more of a disparity that even my example shows by telling everyone to do this but it being so hard that only few people can or want to do it.

So you are against players who practise getting their effort rewarded?

Good or bad everyone should HAVE to use the same rotation and Casts Per Minute?

Seems very anti-competitive and unrewarding if a new player could pick up the game and be as good as someone who has practised for years.

Merforum

caesarvs wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Every discussion regarding DPS (damage per second) and how to get it as high as possible inevitably end up talking about Light Attack Weaving but not much is said about WHY it offers such insanely high damage. So let's see why that is. If X represents light attack damage and Y represents 'average skill' damage, if you do a perfect Anim Cancel for 10 seconds it looks like this,

X+Y + X+Y + X+Y + X+Y + X+Y + X+Y + X+Y + X+Y + X+Y + X+Y = 10X + 10Y

LA Weave without Anim Cancel looks like this

X + Y + X + Y + X + Y + X + Y + X + Y = 5X + 5Y

It becomes very apparent that a perfect LA weave does 100% more damage than a LA weave without animation canceling because by doing AC you get TWO actions/second while not doing it you only get ONE action/sec. And if most of your skills are DOTs/AOEs it is even more than 100% because they are UP longer and triggered sooner.

Now in real life most 'elite' players get only 90% AC so let's call it 9X+10Y, and most people who try AC but don't succeed get maybe 10% so 6X+5Y, but you can see no matter what you do to change the X LA damage or Y skill damage there will still be a huge difference, if we plug in X=1K, Y=2K, we get elite 29K, normal 16K. IRL the numbers have much more disparity that this so this is probably just one issue.

There is actually 2 ways to fix this if you are really concerned about (raising the floor/lowering the ceiling) or balancing.

1. Make it much easier to animation cancel by buffering button pushes so if someone pushes LA, then a skill within 1 second it will register more often. Instead of the way it is now where even the best of the best can only do it 90% of the time and that is on a dummy, in real content I bet they don't get that much. If it was easy enough so literally everyone could do it 75% of time and elite 100% that would really help.

2. Make LA use same GCD as everything else, ie don't allow 2 actions per second only 1 action. Still allow block, roll, bash etc to cancel animation but it should cancel the ACTION also not just the Animation, that way people won't feel the need to use this as a combat tactic.

Personally I prefer the second option because with all the lag and disparity of ping/FPS on systems, some people having high end rigs, video, KBM, etc, more than one action per second seems to be literally too fast for ESO system to handle and probably causing some of the lag. Action would still be super fast just not too fast for the servers and everyone playing to react to. Sorry this is a whole separate problem but related to why some people no matter how hard they try can't do AC very well.

While I think weaving is fine, animation cancelling I find it rather stupid. From a "immersion/realism" perspective(dunno what would be the right word), I just can't deal with the idea of damaging enemies without seeing the damage action itself happening (e.g. you dont see the animation of the light attack, but it still does damage).
Sadly, if you want to be "accepted" as a DPS in endgame, most guilds wants you to push much more higher numbers than the needed for complete the content (you know, with the "skip mechs" mentality and all that). Sure, you can make your own guild with lower requirements, but thats not the point here.
So, OP: if you have difficulties with weaving, I'll link you a "solution" that some (many? who knows) players used/uses:

https://github.com/256shadesofgrey/eso-light-attack-weave

Just search for this link here on forum and you'll see understand what it does...

Thanks for the info. I am sure lots of people also use macros like that but it isn't that important to me to potentially get banned for cheating.

But I spent a good part of today on the PTS server and can say without any doubt if my connection to NA live was as good as PTS, I probably would have already been doing LA/AC for years. As cheesy as it is, everyone who does it gets massive increase in DPS 30-100% at least. Although my heavy attack builds still feel more fun and less strenuous.

It would be better if they fixed it though.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

2. Absolutely not. This would gut combat and LAs would become useless. Why would I ever light attack if I could cast a skill with the same opportunity cost. The answer is that you would not. The game would need completely rebalanced and would be a massive undertaking.

That is the beauty of combat in this game. There are many layers to a min/maxed damage rotation and it requires player skill, developed through practice, to juggle them all. Nothing requires you to attempt any of it other than Veteran HMs and Trifectas, or high end PVP. PVP without AC would be a nightmare. Your ability to react to your opponent would be all but eliminated.

Look, I get that animation cancelling and weaving aren't going anywhere.

But, I'm STILL galled by the fact that they didn't intend for it to be this way. And I'm DEEPLY repulsed by the idea that a fundamental mechanic (the standard Light Attack) is going to be completely invisible, for the most part.

If I were to watch a movie where the heroes raise their weapons to fire, then something blows up on the other end without them actually firing the weapon, I'd want my money back.

It's here. It's part of the zeitgeist. I get it.

But we don't have to like it, and we don't have to pretend it's polished, streamlined, and intentionally complex.

Not coming at you, though. You're awesome, and I get a lot out of reading your posts. I've even taken that advice into the game, with DANG good results. BEARHUGS!!!

First glad, you have found my many rantings over the years to be helpful. First and foremost, that is what I try to do on these forums. Admittedly, sometimes I break from that.

I will, however, push back just a bit. You actually do see the light attacks. When you watch a good weave with low ping, it actually looks very fluid to me. Certainly it gets choppy with higher ping, which I admit could be counter to immersion, but very little of the LA animation is clipped, and its really just the end of the follow through. On a staff you still see it go forward and shoot the elemental damage, on DW for example, you still see the weapon strike the target. If you use the movie example, well, you don't just attack and hold a pose, you move immediately into the next attack. This allows you to do that. You are a powerful being with unique abilities, but you also wield a basic weapon. LA weaving allows you to blend those two together, which is what I assume our heroes would attempt to do.

Ironically, the one type of AC useful to damage that really does clip the animation is swap canceling, and NOBODY talks about it. Probably because most people do this without realizing it. You cast an animation, and then you swap to a different bar. The game allows it because it makes combat feel more fluid. And similar to block, you need to be able to do it, especially in PVP to react to your opponent (certainly why it was coded with a higher priority). If you want to know what it would be like if you couldn't do this, play sorc with Hardcasting frags as a spammable, because it wont let you swap until the animation completely resolves. It is really clunky to play with and frankly feels awful to use.

In fact, the hardest part about doing the parse I showed was trying NOT to swap cancel. Similar to block canceling, people do it all the time and have no idea they are technically animation canceling.

Swap cancelled or not, GCD still applies. Not such a big deal with light attacks because the cooldown is shorter, but with skills if you happen to get ahead of yourself it won’t cast.

Nowhere is this lore prevalent than a Necro rotation casing BB every third skill where BB will be physically greyed out until it is available when you split your backbar in this manner. Now BB is 3 seconds but if you are doing your 2 LA-skill than swap cancel you’ll see it right away. A good Necro user trusts the skill to be up the second he/she hits the button/key, many Necro users will spam the hell out of BB until it casts.

The irony here is that what I just mentioned above is part of the skill gap of why some people can barely break 60k on a Necro and others can break 90k. One skill cast that many times perfectly over the rotation makes all the difference from mid to upper tier DPS.

Other skills/procs have a similar skill gap. And that’s the real difference between floor and ceiling.

Of course the GCD still applies. But swap cancelling is what allows you to maintain your pace when you swap between bars i your rotation. If swapping was on the same GCD as skills, you would lose pace when you swapped. The bigger point is that 1, it chops the animation way more than a LA weave (some skills more than others) and 2 everyone does it too some degree without even realizing they are doing (of course like anything, it can be perfected). 3 almost nobody knows talks about it.

As to Necro, yes the skills can be buggy. That said, blastbones has a travel time. If you are in melee you can cast it every third skill, whether you need to swap between casts or not. If at range you cannot cast every third skill.

On a dummy, I never have issues with blastbones going off. In actual content, you have to be sure it actually goes off before you cast again anytime your don’t have your nose on the boss. Hardest part I think for Necros is being sure you have corpses up for some skills. Siphon is probably the skill I try to cast and have issues with the most.

Necro can be played with a very static rotation, but it does take a lot of bar swapping compared to other classes, which certainly causes some people issues. If you are having issues with BB firing on a target dummy, you are trying to go to fast or not casting 2 skills in between.

Yeah I know the feeling regarding Necro for sure for corpses and siphon. I had to slow up slightly (full disclosure I do parse with a metronome, was a music student in a former life.) Other classes I can play at 57bpm though I set it for 114 and alternate LA-skill on the beats and it works fine (console plus input lag, needs a different cadence between skills and hitting them evenly seems to make the difference. Necro on the other hand I am at 55 (set to 110) and that hits the sweet spot. That amounts to .91 LA ratio versus .95 ratio which for console is pretty good. Full static rotations because console is not user friendly either and it’s hard to read the buff/debuff timers plus some just don’t exists so you need a rotation you can trust.

Regarding AC I generally swap on certain skills. My MagDK swaps on whip and eruption, both my nightblades swap on trap/degen or shade/siphon, magplar on purifying light and trap/rune, Stamden on SA and poison injection. Necro swaps on everything 🤣. On stam toons with bows I also bash cancel endless hail. I like to bash weave engulfing flames on MagDK as well. I’m debating bash canceling swallow soul on Magblade, but at 4x per rotation it gets expensive fast, could just block cancel I suppose.

For sure AC is an acquired skill and a necessity to maintain rhythm. And the way I run my practice tempos that means the AC, pots and synergies fall between the beats. For the musician in me that’s simple subdivision.

I use music analogies all the time when I am helping people 1 on 1 to work on their rotation. I also used to parse with a metronome. It's a great way to make the timing second nature.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

Ippokrates

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

If I were to watch a movie where the heroes raise their weapons to fire, then something blows up on the other end without them actually firing the weapon, I'd want my money back.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

2. Absolutely not. This would gut combat and LAs would become useless. Why would I ever light attack if I could cast a skill with the same opportunity cost. The answer is that you would not. The game would need completely rebalanced and would be a massive undertaking.

That is the beauty of combat in this game. There are many layers to a min/maxed damage rotation and it requires player skill, developed through practice, to juggle them all. Nothing requires you to attempt any of it other than Veteran HMs and Trifectas, or high end PVP. PVP without AC would be a nightmare. Your ability to react to your opponent would be all but eliminated.

Look, I get that animation cancelling and weaving aren't going anywhere.

But, I'm STILL galled by the fact that they didn't intend for it to be this way. And I'm DEEPLY repulsed by the idea that a fundamental mechanic (the standard Light Attack) is going to be completely invisible, for the most part.

If I were to watch a movie where the heroes raise their weapons to fire, then something blows up on the other end without them actually firing the weapon, I'd want my money back.

It's here. It's part of the zeitgeist. I get it.

But we don't have to like it, and we don't have to pretend it's polished, streamlined, and intentionally complex.

Not coming at you, though. You're awesome, and I get a lot out of reading your posts. I've even taken that advice into the game, with DANG good results. BEARHUGS!!!

First glad, you have found my many rantings over the years to be helpful. First and foremost, that is what I try to do on these forums. Admittedly, sometimes I break from that.

I will, however, push back just a bit. You actually do see the light attacks. When you watch a good weave with low ping, it actually looks very fluid to me. Certainly it gets choppy with higher ping, which I admit could be counter to immersion, but very little of the LA animation is clipped, and its really just the end of the follow through. On a staff you still see it go forward and shoot the elemental damage, on DW for example, you still see the weapon strike the target. If you use the movie example, well, you don't just attack and hold a pose, you move immediately into the next attack. This allows you to do that. You are a powerful being with unique abilities, but you also wield a basic weapon. LA weaving allows you to blend those two together, which is what I assume our heroes would attempt to do.

Ironically, the one type of AC useful to damage that really does clip the animation is swap canceling, and NOBODY talks about it. Probably because most people do this without realizing it. You cast an animation, and then you swap to a different bar. The game allows it because it makes combat feel more fluid. And similar to block, you need to be able to do it, especially in PVP to react to your opponent (certainly why it was coded with a higher priority). If you want to know what it would be like if you couldn't do this, play sorc with Hardcasting frags as a spammable, because it wont let you swap until the animation completely resolves. It is really clunky to play with and frankly feels awful to use.

In fact, the hardest part about doing the parse I showed was trying NOT to swap cancel. Similar to block canceling, people do it all the time and have no idea they are technically animation canceling.

Swap cancelled or not, GCD still applies. Not such a big deal with light attacks because the cooldown is shorter, but with skills if you happen to get ahead of yourself it won’t cast.

Nowhere is this lore prevalent than a Necro rotation casing BB every third skill where BB will be physically greyed out until it is available when you split your backbar in this manner. Now BB is 3 seconds but if you are doing your 2 LA-skill than swap cancel you’ll see it right away. A good Necro user trusts the skill to be up the second he/she hits the button/key, many Necro users will spam the hell out of BB until it casts.

The irony here is that what I just mentioned above is part of the skill gap of why some people can barely break 60k on a Necro and others can break 90k. One skill cast that many times perfectly over the rotation makes all the difference from mid to upper tier DPS.

Other skills/procs have a similar skill gap. And that’s the real difference between floor and ceiling.

Of course the GCD still applies. But swap cancelling is what allows you to maintain your pace when you swap between bars i your rotation. If swapping was on the same GCD as skills, you would lose pace when you swapped. The bigger point is that 1, it chops the animation way more than a LA weave (some skills more than others) and 2 everyone does it too some degree without even realizing they are doing (of course like anything, it can be perfected). 3 almost nobody knows talks about it.

As to Necro, yes the skills can be buggy. That said, blastbones has a travel time. If you are in melee you can cast it every third skill, whether you need to swap between casts or not. If at range you cannot cast every third skill.

On a dummy, I never have issues with blastbones going off. In actual content, you have to be sure it actually goes off before you cast again anytime your don’t have your nose on the boss. Hardest part I think for Necros is being sure you have corpses up for some skills. Siphon is probably the skill I try to cast and have issues with the most.

Necro can be played with a very static rotation, but it does take a lot of bar swapping compared to other classes, which certainly causes some people issues. If you are having issues with BB firing on a target dummy, you are trying to go to fast or not casting 2 skills in between.

Yeah I know the feeling regarding Necro for sure for corpses and siphon. I had to slow up slightly (full disclosure I do parse with a metronome, was a music student in a former life.) Other classes I can play at 57bpm though I set it for 114 and alternate LA-skill on the beats and it works fine (console plus input lag, needs a different cadence between skills and hitting them evenly seems to make the difference. Necro on the other hand I am at 55 (set to 110) and that hits the sweet spot. That amounts to .91 LA ratio versus .95 ratio which for console is pretty good. Full static rotations because console is not user friendly either and it’s hard to read the buff/debuff timers plus some just don’t exists so you need a rotation you can trust.

Regarding AC I generally swap on certain skills. My MagDK swaps on whip and eruption, both my nightblades swap on trap/degen or shade/siphon, magplar on purifying light and trap/rune, Stamden on SA and poison injection. Necro swaps on everything 🤣. On stam toons with bows I also bash cancel endless hail. I like to bash weave engulfing flames on MagDK as well. I’m debating bash canceling swallow soul on Magblade, but at 4x per rotation it gets expensive fast, could just block cancel I suppose.

For sure AC is an acquired skill and a necessity to maintain rhythm. And the way I run my practice tempos that means the AC, pots and synergies fall between the beats. For the musician in me that’s simple subdivision.

I use music analogies all the time when I am helping people 1 on 1 to work on their rotation. I also used to parse with a metronome. It's a great way to make the timing second nature.

Me too, but I cannot shot in proper tempo. How many ticks you are using? I was trying somewhat between 60-67.

Everest_Lionheart

Ippokrates wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

If I were to watch a movie where the heroes raise their weapons to fire, then something blows up on the other end without them actually firing the weapon, I'd want my money back.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

2. Absolutely not. This would gut combat and LAs would become useless. Why would I ever light attack if I could cast a skill with the same opportunity cost. The answer is that you would not. The game would need completely rebalanced and would be a massive undertaking.

That is the beauty of combat in this game. There are many layers to a min/maxed damage rotation and it requires player skill, developed through practice, to juggle them all. Nothing requires you to attempt any of it other than Veteran HMs and Trifectas, or high end PVP. PVP without AC would be a nightmare. Your ability to react to your opponent would be all but eliminated.

Look, I get that animation cancelling and weaving aren't going anywhere.

But, I'm STILL galled by the fact that they didn't intend for it to be this way. And I'm DEEPLY repulsed by the idea that a fundamental mechanic (the standard Light Attack) is going to be completely invisible, for the most part.

If I were to watch a movie where the heroes raise their weapons to fire, then something blows up on the other end without them actually firing the weapon, I'd want my money back.

It's here. It's part of the zeitgeist. I get it.

But we don't have to like it, and we don't have to pretend it's polished, streamlined, and intentionally complex.

Not coming at you, though. You're awesome, and I get a lot out of reading your posts. I've even taken that advice into the game, with DANG good results. BEARHUGS!!!

First glad, you have found my many rantings over the years to be helpful. First and foremost, that is what I try to do on these forums. Admittedly, sometimes I break from that.

I will, however, push back just a bit. You actually do see the light attacks. When you watch a good weave with low ping, it actually looks very fluid to me. Certainly it gets choppy with higher ping, which I admit could be counter to immersion, but very little of the LA animation is clipped, and its really just the end of the follow through. On a staff you still see it go forward and shoot the elemental damage, on DW for example, you still see the weapon strike the target. If you use the movie example, well, you don't just attack and hold a pose, you move immediately into the next attack. This allows you to do that. You are a powerful being with unique abilities, but you also wield a basic weapon. LA weaving allows you to blend those two together, which is what I assume our heroes would attempt to do.

Ironically, the one type of AC useful to damage that really does clip the animation is swap canceling, and NOBODY talks about it. Probably because most people do this without realizing it. You cast an animation, and then you swap to a different bar. The game allows it because it makes combat feel more fluid. And similar to block, you need to be able to do it, especially in PVP to react to your opponent (certainly why it was coded with a higher priority). If you want to know what it would be like if you couldn't do this, play sorc with Hardcasting frags as a spammable, because it wont let you swap until the animation completely resolves. It is really clunky to play with and frankly feels awful to use.

In fact, the hardest part about doing the parse I showed was trying NOT to swap cancel. Similar to block canceling, people do it all the time and have no idea they are technically animation canceling.

Swap cancelled or not, GCD still applies. Not such a big deal with light attacks because the cooldown is shorter, but with skills if you happen to get ahead of yourself it won’t cast.

Nowhere is this lore prevalent than a Necro rotation casing BB every third skill where BB will be physically greyed out until it is available when you split your backbar in this manner. Now BB is 3 seconds but if you are doing your 2 LA-skill than swap cancel you’ll see it right away. A good Necro user trusts the skill to be up the second he/she hits the button/key, many Necro users will spam the hell out of BB until it casts.

The irony here is that what I just mentioned above is part of the skill gap of why some people can barely break 60k on a Necro and others can break 90k. One skill cast that many times perfectly over the rotation makes all the difference from mid to upper tier DPS.

Other skills/procs have a similar skill gap. And that’s the real difference between floor and ceiling.

Of course the GCD still applies. But swap cancelling is what allows you to maintain your pace when you swap between bars i your rotation. If swapping was on the same GCD as skills, you would lose pace when you swapped. The bigger point is that 1, it chops the animation way more than a LA weave (some skills more than others) and 2 everyone does it too some degree without even realizing they are doing (of course like anything, it can be perfected). 3 almost nobody knows talks about it.

As to Necro, yes the skills can be buggy. That said, blastbones has a travel time. If you are in melee you can cast it every third skill, whether you need to swap between casts or not. If at range you cannot cast every third skill.

On a dummy, I never have issues with blastbones going off. In actual content, you have to be sure it actually goes off before you cast again anytime your don’t have your nose on the boss. Hardest part I think for Necros is being sure you have corpses up for some skills. Siphon is probably the skill I try to cast and have issues with the most.

Necro can be played with a very static rotation, but it does take a lot of bar swapping compared to other classes, which certainly causes some people issues. If you are having issues with BB firing on a target dummy, you are trying to go to fast or not casting 2 skills in between.

Yeah I know the feeling regarding Necro for sure for corpses and siphon. I had to slow up slightly (full disclosure I do parse with a metronome, was a music student in a former life.) Other classes I can play at 57bpm though I set it for 114 and alternate LA-skill on the beats and it works fine (console plus input lag, needs a different cadence between skills and hitting them evenly seems to make the difference. Necro on the other hand I am at 55 (set to 110) and that hits the sweet spot. That amounts to .91 LA ratio versus .95 ratio which for console is pretty good. Full static rotations because console is not user friendly either and it’s hard to read the buff/debuff timers plus some just don’t exists so you need a rotation you can trust.

Regarding AC I generally swap on certain skills. My MagDK swaps on whip and eruption, both my nightblades swap on trap/degen or shade/siphon, magplar on purifying light and trap/rune, Stamden on SA and poison injection. Necro swaps on everything 🤣. On stam toons with bows I also bash cancel endless hail. I like to bash weave engulfing flames on MagDK as well. I’m debating bash canceling swallow soul on Magblade, but at 4x per rotation it gets expensive fast, could just block cancel I suppose.

For sure AC is an acquired skill and a necessity to maintain rhythm. And the way I run my practice tempos that means the AC, pots and synergies fall between the beats. For the musician in me that’s simple subdivision.

I use music analogies all the time when I am helping people 1 on 1 to work on their rotation. I also used to parse with a metronome. It's a great way to make the timing second nature.

Me too, but I cannot shot in proper tempo. How many ticks you are using? I was trying somewhat between 60-67.

For me it’s class dependant. Theoretically the highest you can go is 60, however 57 it probably the true ceiling. That will net you a LA ratio of 0.95 per second. A few exceptional players can hit higher than that. I am more comfortable at 56 which is 0.93 LA per second on my MagDK, magblade and Stamden. I feel more comfortable at 55 (0.91 LA per sec) on magcro and magplar because of the channel/travel times of certain skills.

I’m the end it’s more important for all of the LA and skills to actually land than it is to cast them as fast as possible. You miss a blastbones or two on Necro and your numbers tank. Any class with ele weapons if you miss your numbers tank. If you are using cheaper pots and degen as you source of major sorcery and you miss a cast, your dps tanks. Miss your wall of elements and your DPS tanks. See where I am going with this?

Accuracy always before speed.

Merforum

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

zvavi

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Edited for Rude Comment]

Merforum

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Snip]

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

[Edited for removed content]

VaranisArano

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Snip]

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

The PTS server isn't better than the Live server. It's just empty by comparison. It has a tiny load of people.

But think back to ZOS trying to test dragon hunts on the PTS. It couldn't handle it.

There's nothing special about it, except that the PTS is normally responding to very few players.

Nymzy

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

I don't wanna sound rude but it really feels like you have no idea what you are talking about.
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

I know it may be very difficult but please refrain from constantly insulting people.

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

1. 30-100% is kind of a big margin, for very light attack intensive classes like nightblades the damage increase is 25% for top tier players. https://imgur.com/a/WIq9Da3 (20% of the total damage, 25% increase opposed to not weaving)
2. How are people going to hit 70k dps when lightattacks are removed if they cannot even hit it with lightattacks? It's not solving the issue of new players lacking damage, content is not getting easier.
3. Harpooners wading kilt, a well thought out change to make crit stacking less appealing indeed.
4. Yes high ping is annoying, it doesn't make weaving impossible though you need to get adjusted to the timing.
The real problem is dieing to desynced mechanics.

Merforum

VaranisArano wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

I don't wanna sound rude but it really feels like you have no idea what you are talking about.
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

I know it may be very difficult but please refrain from constantly insulting people.

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

The PTS server isn't better than the Live server. It's just empty by comparison. It has a tiny load of people.

But think back to ZOS trying to test dragon hunts on the PTS. It couldn't handle it.

There's nothing special about it, except that the PTS is normally responding to very few players.

I didn't say the PTS server/network is better than live, I said that since I have much better performance on PTS than live it is probably a problem on their end. And being an IT infrastructure guy for 30 years I can say without question that upgrading hardware/network at this point is a minimal next step to address the lag issues. As you say the software works to a point then get overwhelmed. The bad part is if it is the hardware that is hitting a limit and you keep messing with the software, you can actually make things much worse to the point when you finally move to good hardware it won't help. Hardware is so cheap and Microsoft has tons of it, that it is inconceivable that they don't do this soon.

Merforum

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Snip]

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

1. 30-100% is kind of a big margin, for very light attack intensive classes like nightblades the damage increase is 25% for top tier players. https://imgur.com/a/WIq9Da3 (20% of the total damage, 25% increase opposed to not weaving)
2. How are people going to hit 70k dps when lightattacks are removed if they cannot even hit it with lightattacks? It's not solving the issue of new players lacking damage, content is not getting adjusted
3. Harpooners wading kilt, a well thought out change to make crit stacking less appealing indeed.
4. Yes high ping is annoying.

1.Just from your picture I can see elemental weapon at 7.8K, fiery weapon 4K, burning 3.7K, so there is extra 15+K you are conveniently ignoring. Those are FREE procs from LA, which is FREE if LA/AC is used. BTW I will also say that 'assassins will' for 9K is proccing 2X as fast because you can do LA for FREE every second, so you not only get a skill cast + LA every second, you get assassin's will every 5 seconds. Tell me how often that would happen without LA/AC. WHOLLY crap your example is worse than others I have see with all the FREE LA/AC damage in that rotation. And what about Proccing Zaan. Here's the test, use exact same build/rotation without LA/AC, this will be way less than 70K DPS for sure.

2. Luckily we already had one of our experts test without LA/AC and it was 70K DPS, so they can still do all content. Don't try to change the subject to what beginners can or can't do that is off topic, BTW they adjust content all the time and actually have said they don't want people bypassing mechs so either they continue to increase boss health which just makes it harder to mid level or reduce DPS at top (which they've said many times is a goal and the reason for my suggestion and this thread), they could also just put DPS caps on bosses which would also solve the problem

3.BTW to my third point look at that crit chance 79% and crit damage 117%, OMG that is insane. Harpooner's is to get trial players to buy expansion, is that not completely obvious, then they'll nerf it

It is pretty obvious that removing LA/AC and reducing crit chance/dmg to 50% cap, would help to 'lower the ceiling' of insane power creep while at the same time NOT Nerfing low-mid DPS. No one is arguing the reality of the facts just hoping ZOS won't realize this to be easiest path to solving these issues.

zvavi

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Snip]

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

1. No it is not, take any stamina character and you will barely get 10% damage from la, and AC is non existent, if your computer is not animating properly because of technical issues it is not AC. Upgrade your gear.
2. Yes cause nerfing us more will 100% make content easier for people that can't make it /s
3. I am not arguing about what is the right way to go about it. Nor what you said is true, on the PTS we are getting a new mythic that is built into crit damage, so crit will be king more than ever. PS, ms is not that strong in dungeons where you are lacking lots of group crit damage modifiers.
4. Naturally, and it is the only thing in your post that makes sense, everything else lacks a lot of logical connections.

zvavi

Merforum wrote: »

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Snip]

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

1. 30-100% is kind of a big margin, for very light attack intensive classes like nightblades the damage increase is 25% for top tier players. https://imgur.com/a/WIq9Da3 (20% of the total damage, 25% increase opposed to not weaving)
2. How are people going to hit 70k dps when lightattacks are removed if they cannot even hit it with lightattacks? It's not solving the issue of new players lacking damage, content is not getting adjusted
3. Harpooners wading kilt, a well thought out change to make crit stacking less appealing indeed.
4. Yes high ping is annoying.

1.Just from your picture I can see elemental weapon at 7.8K, fiery weapon 4K, burning 3.7K, so there is extra 15+K you are conveniently ignoring. Those are FREE procs from LA, which is FREE if LA/AC is used. BTW I will also say that 'assassins will' for 9K is proccing 2X as fast because you can do LA for FREE every second, so you not only get a skill cast + LA every second, you get assassin's will every 5 seconds. Tell me how often that would happen without LA/AC. WHOLLY crap your example is worse than others I have see with all the FREE LA/AC damage in that rotation. And what about Proccing Zaan. Here's the test, use exact same build/rotation without LA/AC, this will be way less than 70K DPS for sure.

2. Luckily we already had one of our experts test without LA/AC and it was 70K DPS, so they can still do all content. Don't try to change the subject to what beginners can or can't do that is off topic, BTW they adjust content all the time and actually have said they don't want people bypassing mechs so either they continue to increase boss health which just makes it harder to mid level or reduce DPS at top (which they've said many times is a goal and the reason for my suggestion and this thread), they could also just put DPS caps on bosses which would also solve the problem

3.BTW to my third point look at that crit chance 79% and crit damage 117%, OMG that is insane. Harpooner's is to get trial players to buy expansion, is that not completely obvious, then they'll nerf it

It is pretty obvious that removing LA/AC and reducing crit chance/dmg to 50% cap, would help to 'lower the ceiling' of insane power creep while at the same time NOT Nerfing low-mid DPS. No one is arguing the reality of the facts just hoping ZOS won't realize this to be easiest path to solving these issues.

Burning procs of other things than light attacks, and he could have used other spammable than elemental weapon...while nb's are a class that gets the most of light attacks, that's because they are built that way. Take a stamina parse. Stop looking at mag parses. You will se much smaller margin.

And no, it is not obvious that putting cap on crit at 50% will need mid tier dps, because half of them are running mother's sorrow too.

Merforum

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

I don't wanna sound rude but it really feels like you have no idea what you are talking about.
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

I know it may be very difficult but please refrain from constantly insulting people.

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

1. No it is not, take any stamina character and you will barely get 10% damage from la, and AC is non existent, if your computer is not animating properly because of technical issues it is not AC. Upgrade your gear.
2. Yes cause nerfing us more will 100% make content easier for people that can't make it /s
3. I am not arguing about what is the right way to go about it. Nor what you said is true, on the PTS we are getting a new mythic that is built into crit damage, so crit will be king more than ever. PS, ms is not that strong in dungeons where you are lacking lots of group crit damage modifiers.
4. Naturally, and it is the only thing in your post that makes sense, everything else lacks a lot of logical connections.

Since everything I said has been PROVEN without a shadow of a doubt, including apparently you are incapable of making a comment without insults, I will say I am done with you.

Nymzy

Merforum wrote: »

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Snip]

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

1. 30-100% is kind of a big margin, for very light attack intensive classes like nightblades the damage increase is 25% for top tier players. https://imgur.com/a/WIq9Da3 (20% of the total damage, 25% increase opposed to not weaving)
2. How are people going to hit 70k dps when lightattacks are removed if they cannot even hit it with lightattacks? It's not solving the issue of new players lacking damage, content is not getting adjusted
3. Harpooners wading kilt, a well thought out change to make crit stacking less appealing indeed.
4. Yes high ping is annoying.

1.Just from your picture I can see elemental weapon at 7.8K, fiery weapon 4K, burning 3.7K, so there is extra 15+K you are conveniently ignoring. Those are FREE procs from LA, which is FREE if LA/AC is used. BTW I will also say that 'assassins will' for 9K is proccing 2X as fast because you can do LA for FREE every second, so you not only get a skill cast + LA every second, you get assassin's will every 5 seconds. Tell me how often that would happen without LA/AC. WHOLLY crap your example is worse than others I have see with all the FREE LA/AC damage in that rotation. And what about Proccing Zaan. Here's the test, use exact same build/rotation without LA/AC, this will be way less than 70K DPS for sure.

2. Luckily we already had one of our experts test without LA/AC and it was 70K DPS, so they can still do all content. Don't try to change the subject to what beginners can or can't do that is off topic, BTW they adjust content all the time and actually have said they don't want people bypassing mechs so either they continue to increase boss health which just makes it harder to mid level or reduce DPS at top (which they've said many times is a goal and the reason for my suggestion and this thread), they could also just put DPS caps on bosses which would also solve the problem

3.BTW to my third point look at that crit chance 79% and crit damage 117%, OMG that is insane. Harpooner's is to get trial players to buy expansion, is that not completely obvious, then they'll nerf it

It is pretty obvious that removing LA/AC and reducing crit chance/dmg to 50% cap, would help to 'lower the ceiling' of insane power creep while at the same time NOT Nerfing low-mid DPS. No one is arguing the reality of the facts just hoping ZOS won't realize this to be easiest path to solving these issues.

1. If light attack weaving was to get removed proc set's and skills that have light attacks as their proc requirement would get adjusted to work in another way, for all I care this would have been a petsorc using maw and deadric prey, literally the same damage as zaan. Elemental weapon is a skill GCD, it being the exception to the rule of requiring a light attack to empower (what a coincidence, almost like it was intented) could have been literally any other spammable in the game like forcepulse, aertherial burst or blood for blood which has a much higher tooltip anyway while not requiring a light attack. And last, weapons enchants also proc from weapon abilities.

2. 70k dummy dps is not enough to complete all achievements in the game, if it were there wouldn't be only 5 groups with Godslayer in the first year of release.

3. They could have literally made that mythic tons of other ways to make it increase damage without buffing crit stacking. meanwhile they specifically chose to increase crit damage. Besides this mythic is separate from elemental catalyst which was introduced with the nerf to precise weapons. These choices were consciously made.

Merforum

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Snip]

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

1. 30-100% is kind of a big margin, for very light attack intensive classes like nightblades the damage increase is 25% for top tier players. https://imgur.com/a/WIq9Da3 (20% of the total damage, 25% increase opposed to not weaving)
2. How are people going to hit 70k dps when lightattacks are removed if they cannot even hit it with lightattacks? It's not solving the issue of new players lacking damage, content is not getting adjusted
3. Harpooners wading kilt, a well thought out change to make crit stacking less appealing indeed.
4. Yes high ping is annoying.

1.Just from your picture I can see elemental weapon at 7.8K, fiery weapon 4K, burning 3.7K, so there is extra 15+K you are conveniently ignoring. Those are FREE procs from LA, which is FREE if LA/AC is used. BTW I will also say that 'assassins will' for 9K is proccing 2X as fast because you can do LA for FREE every second, so you not only get a skill cast + LA every second, you get assassin's will every 5 seconds. Tell me how often that would happen without LA/AC. WHOLLY crap your example is worse than others I have see with all the FREE LA/AC damage in that rotation. And what about Proccing Zaan. Here's the test, use exact same build/rotation without LA/AC, this will be way less than 70K DPS for sure.

2. Luckily we already had one of our experts test without LA/AC and it was 70K DPS, so they can still do all content. Don't try to change the subject to what beginners can or can't do that is off topic, BTW they adjust content all the time and actually have said they don't want people bypassing mechs so either they continue to increase boss health which just makes it harder to mid level or reduce DPS at top (which they've said many times is a goal and the reason for my suggestion and this thread), they could also just put DPS caps on bosses which would also solve the problem

3.BTW to my third point look at that crit chance 79% and crit damage 117%, OMG that is insane. Harpooner's is to get trial players to buy expansion, is that not completely obvious, then they'll nerf it

It is pretty obvious that removing LA/AC and reducing crit chance/dmg to 50% cap, would help to 'lower the ceiling' of insane power creep while at the same time NOT Nerfing low-mid DPS. No one is arguing the reality of the facts just hoping ZOS won't realize this to be easiest path to solving these issues.

Burning procs of other things than light attacks, and he could have used other spammable than elemental weapon...while nb's are a class that gets the most of light attacks, that's because they are built that way. Take a stamina parse. Stop looking at mag parses. You will se much smaller margin.

And no, it is not obvious that putting cap on crit at 50% will need mid tier dps, because half of them are running mother's sorrow too.

These are the parses people are sharing on the thread, don't blame me. But it is categorically true that LA/AC has mega effect beyond just the LA damage itself.

Of course, every Mag is using MS because crit is insanely powerful form of FREE damage, but as you say most mid level wouldn't get all the benefits of Trial buffs so are still under the 50% cap, which again proves absolutely that that kind of a cap would reduce high-end DPS while not affecting mid level at all.

Merforum

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Snip]

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

1. 30-100% is kind of a big margin, for very light attack intensive classes like nightblades the damage increase is 25% for top tier players. https://imgur.com/a/WIq9Da3 (20% of the total damage, 25% increase opposed to not weaving)
2. How are people going to hit 70k dps when lightattacks are removed if they cannot even hit it with lightattacks? It's not solving the issue of new players lacking damage, content is not getting adjusted
3. Harpooners wading kilt, a well thought out change to make crit stacking less appealing indeed.
4. Yes high ping is annoying.

1.Just from your picture I can see elemental weapon at 7.8K, fiery weapon 4K, burning 3.7K, so there is extra 15+K you are conveniently ignoring. Those are FREE procs from LA, which is FREE if LA/AC is used. BTW I will also say that 'assassins will' for 9K is proccing 2X as fast because you can do LA for FREE every second, so you not only get a skill cast + LA every second, you get assassin's will every 5 seconds. Tell me how often that would happen without LA/AC. WHOLLY crap your example is worse than others I have see with all the FREE LA/AC damage in that rotation. And what about Proccing Zaan. Here's the test, use exact same build/rotation without LA/AC, this will be way less than 70K DPS for sure.

2. Luckily we already had one of our experts test without LA/AC and it was 70K DPS, so they can still do all content. Don't try to change the subject to what beginners can or can't do that is off topic, BTW they adjust content all the time and actually have said they don't want people bypassing mechs so either they continue to increase boss health which just makes it harder to mid level or reduce DPS at top (which they've said many times is a goal and the reason for my suggestion and this thread), they could also just put DPS caps on bosses which would also solve the problem

3.BTW to my third point look at that crit chance 79% and crit damage 117%, OMG that is insane. Harpooner's is to get trial players to buy expansion, is that not completely obvious, then they'll nerf it

It is pretty obvious that removing LA/AC and reducing crit chance/dmg to 50% cap, would help to 'lower the ceiling' of insane power creep while at the same time NOT Nerfing low-mid DPS. No one is arguing the reality of the facts just hoping ZOS won't realize this to be easiest path to solving these issues.

1. If light attack weaving was to get removed proc set's and skills that have light attacks as their proc requirement would get adjusted to work in another way, for all I care this would have been a petsorc using maw and deadric prey, literally the same damage as zaan. Elemental weapon is a skill GCD, it being the exception to the rule of requiring a light attack to empower (what a coincidence, almost like it was intented) could have been literally any other spammable in the game like forcepulse, aertherial burst or blood for blood which has a much higher tooltip anyway while not requiring a light attack. And last, weapons enchants also proc from weapon abilities.

2. 70k dummy dps is not enough to complete all achievements in the game, if it were there wouldn't be only 5 groups with Godslayer in the first year of release.

3. They could have literally made that mythic tons of other ways to make it increase damage without buffing crit stacking. meanwhile they specifically chose to increase crit damage. Besides this mythic is separate from elemental catalyst which was introduced with the nerf to precise weapons. These choices were consciously made.

YOU sent that parse to me as some proof but I blew it out of the water because it showed EXACTLY the OPPOSITE. I am getting so tired of this and think I am done. Think what you want, I don't really care. ZOS will either fix the power creep in the best way possible remove LA/AC and tone down crit to 50% (and/or add DPS caps to bosses or w/sdmg, stat caps across board) or keep nerfing everyone trying to solve that or give us better companions or whatever.

zvavi

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Snip]

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

1. 30-100% is kind of a big margin, for very light attack intensive classes like nightblades the damage increase is 25% for top tier players. https://imgur.com/a/WIq9Da3 (20% of the total damage, 25% increase opposed to not weaving)
2. How are people going to hit 70k dps when lightattacks are removed if they cannot even hit it with lightattacks? It's not solving the issue of new players lacking damage, content is not getting adjusted
3. Harpooners wading kilt, a well thought out change to make crit stacking less appealing indeed.
4. Yes high ping is annoying.

1.Just from your picture I can see elemental weapon at 7.8K, fiery weapon 4K, burning 3.7K, so there is extra 15+K you are conveniently ignoring. Those are FREE procs from LA, which is FREE if LA/AC is used. BTW I will also say that 'assassins will' for 9K is proccing 2X as fast because you can do LA for FREE every second, so you not only get a skill cast + LA every second, you get assassin's will every 5 seconds. Tell me how often that would happen without LA/AC. WHOLLY crap your example is worse than others I have see with all the FREE LA/AC damage in that rotation. And what about Proccing Zaan. Here's the test, use exact same build/rotation without LA/AC, this will be way less than 70K DPS for sure.

2. Luckily we already had one of our experts test without LA/AC and it was 70K DPS, so they can still do all content. Don't try to change the subject to what beginners can or can't do that is off topic, BTW they adjust content all the time and actually have said they don't want people bypassing mechs so either they continue to increase boss health which just makes it harder to mid level or reduce DPS at top (which they've said many times is a goal and the reason for my suggestion and this thread), they could also just put DPS caps on bosses which would also solve the problem

3.BTW to my third point look at that crit chance 79% and crit damage 117%, OMG that is insane. Harpooner's is to get trial players to buy expansion, is that not completely obvious, then they'll nerf it

It is pretty obvious that removing LA/AC and reducing crit chance/dmg to 50% cap, would help to 'lower the ceiling' of insane power creep while at the same time NOT Nerfing low-mid DPS. No one is arguing the reality of the facts just hoping ZOS won't realize this to be easiest path to solving these issues.

Burning procs of other things than light attacks, and he could have used other spammable than elemental weapon...while nb's are a class that gets the most of light attacks, that's because they are built that way. Take a stamina parse. Stop looking at mag parses. You will se much smaller margin.

And no, it is not obvious that putting cap on crit at 50% will need mid tier dps, because half of them are running mother's sorrow too.

These are the parses people are sharing on the thread, don't blame me. But it is categorically true that LA/AC has mega effect beyond just the LA damage itself.

Of course, every Mag is using MS because crit is insanely powerful form of FREE damage, but as you say most mid level wouldn't get all the benefits of Trial buffs so are still under the 50% cap, which again proves absolutely that that kind of a cap would reduce high-end DPS while not affecting mid level at all.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Qpxng4a2PYmk8bv1#fight=1&type=damage-done&source=1

The only "trial buff" that gives you crit is the sorcerer's 6% crit... Because optimizing gear for if there is sorc in group, or no sorc in group, is what people mid tier players do...

Nymzy

Merforum wrote: »

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Snip]

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

1. 30-100% is kind of a big margin, for very light attack intensive classes like nightblades the damage increase is 25% for top tier players. https://imgur.com/a/WIq9Da3 (20% of the total damage, 25% increase opposed to not weaving)
2. How are people going to hit 70k dps when lightattacks are removed if they cannot even hit it with lightattacks? It's not solving the issue of new players lacking damage, content is not getting adjusted
3. Harpooners wading kilt, a well thought out change to make crit stacking less appealing indeed.
4. Yes high ping is annoying.

1.Just from your picture I can see elemental weapon at 7.8K, fiery weapon 4K, burning 3.7K, so there is extra 15+K you are conveniently ignoring. Those are FREE procs from LA, which is FREE if LA/AC is used. BTW I will also say that 'assassins will' for 9K is proccing 2X as fast because you can do LA for FREE every second, so you not only get a skill cast + LA every second, you get assassin's will every 5 seconds. Tell me how often that would happen without LA/AC. WHOLLY crap your example is worse than others I have see with all the FREE LA/AC damage in that rotation. And what about Proccing Zaan. Here's the test, use exact same build/rotation without LA/AC, this will be way less than 70K DPS for sure.

2. Luckily we already had one of our experts test without LA/AC and it was 70K DPS, so they can still do all content. Don't try to change the subject to what beginners can or can't do that is off topic, BTW they adjust content all the time and actually have said they don't want people bypassing mechs so either they continue to increase boss health which just makes it harder to mid level or reduce DPS at top (which they've said many times is a goal and the reason for my suggestion and this thread), they could also just put DPS caps on bosses which would also solve the problem

3.BTW to my third point look at that crit chance 79% and crit damage 117%, OMG that is insane. Harpooner's is to get trial players to buy expansion, is that not completely obvious, then they'll nerf it

It is pretty obvious that removing LA/AC and reducing crit chance/dmg to 50% cap, would help to 'lower the ceiling' of insane power creep while at the same time NOT Nerfing low-mid DPS. No one is arguing the reality of the facts just hoping ZOS won't realize this to be easiest path to solving these issues.

1. If light attack weaving was to get removed proc set's and skills that have light attacks as their proc requirement would get adjusted to work in another way, for all I care this would have been a petsorc using maw and deadric prey, literally the same damage as zaan. Elemental weapon is a skill GCD, it being the exception to the rule of requiring a light attack to empower (what a coincidence, almost like it was intented) could have been literally any other spammable in the game like forcepulse, aertherial burst or blood for blood which has a much higher tooltip anyway while not requiring a light attack. And last, weapons enchants also proc from weapon abilities.

2. 70k dummy dps is not enough to complete all achievements in the game, if it were there wouldn't be only 5 groups with Godslayer in the first year of release.

3. They could have literally made that mythic tons of other ways to make it increase damage without buffing crit stacking. meanwhile they specifically chose to increase crit damage. Besides this mythic is separate from elemental catalyst which was introduced with the nerf to precise weapons. These choices were consciously made.

YOU sent that parse to me as some proof but I blew it out of the water because it showed EXACTLY the OPPOSITE. I am getting so tired of this and think I am done. Think what you want, I don't really care. ZOS will either fix the power creep in the best way possible remove LA/AC and tone down crit to 50% (and/or add DPS caps to bosses or w/sdmg, stat caps across board) or keep nerfing everyone trying to solve that or give us better companions or whatever.

I wasn't expecting to get such a creative answer to beat around the bush that light attacks increase dps by 100% to be honest.
But you are correct, it was a very bad example.
https://imgur.com/a/si95LVl | This one is actually one i made for Liko's channel during the greymoor patch.
Yes the burning is from maw for the most part, not from the weapon enchant.

P.S this was done with staff expert still being a thing in CP but hey that only works in your benefit .

Merforum

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Snip]

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

1. 30-100% is kind of a big margin, for very light attack intensive classes like nightblades the damage increase is 25% for top tier players. https://imgur.com/a/WIq9Da3 (20% of the total damage, 25% increase opposed to not weaving)
2. How are people going to hit 70k dps when lightattacks are removed if they cannot even hit it with lightattacks? It's not solving the issue of new players lacking damage, content is not getting adjusted
3. Harpooners wading kilt, a well thought out change to make crit stacking less appealing indeed.
4. Yes high ping is annoying.

1.Just from your picture I can see elemental weapon at 7.8K, fiery weapon 4K, burning 3.7K, so there is extra 15+K you are conveniently ignoring. Those are FREE procs from LA, which is FREE if LA/AC is used. BTW I will also say that 'assassins will' for 9K is proccing 2X as fast because you can do LA for FREE every second, so you not only get a skill cast + LA every second, you get assassin's will every 5 seconds. Tell me how often that would happen without LA/AC. WHOLLY crap your example is worse than others I have see with all the FREE LA/AC damage in that rotation. And what about Proccing Zaan. Here's the test, use exact same build/rotation without LA/AC, this will be way less than 70K DPS for sure.

2. Luckily we already had one of our experts test without LA/AC and it was 70K DPS, so they can still do all content. Don't try to change the subject to what beginners can or can't do that is off topic, BTW they adjust content all the time and actually have said they don't want people bypassing mechs so either they continue to increase boss health which just makes it harder to mid level or reduce DPS at top (which they've said many times is a goal and the reason for my suggestion and this thread), they could also just put DPS caps on bosses which would also solve the problem

3.BTW to my third point look at that crit chance 79% and crit damage 117%, OMG that is insane. Harpooner's is to get trial players to buy expansion, is that not completely obvious, then they'll nerf it

It is pretty obvious that removing LA/AC and reducing crit chance/dmg to 50% cap, would help to 'lower the ceiling' of insane power creep while at the same time NOT Nerfing low-mid DPS. No one is arguing the reality of the facts just hoping ZOS won't realize this to be easiest path to solving these issues.

1. If light attack weaving was to get removed proc set's and skills that have light attacks as their proc requirement would get adjusted to work in another way, for all I care this would have been a petsorc using maw and deadric prey, literally the same damage as zaan. Elemental weapon is a skill GCD, it being the exception to the rule of requiring a light attack to empower (what a coincidence, almost like it was intented) could have been literally any other spammable in the game like forcepulse, aertherial burst or blood for blood which has a much higher tooltip anyway while not requiring a light attack. And last, weapons enchants also proc from weapon abilities.

2. 70k dummy dps is not enough to complete all achievements in the game, if it were there wouldn't be only 5 groups with Godslayer in the first year of release.

3. They could have literally made that mythic tons of other ways to make it increase damage without buffing crit stacking. meanwhile they specifically chose to increase crit damage. Besides this mythic is separate from elemental catalyst which was introduced with the nerf to precise weapons. These choices were consciously made.

YOU sent that parse to me as some proof but I blew it out of the water because it showed EXACTLY the OPPOSITE. I am getting so tired of this and think I am done. Think what you want, I don't really care. ZOS will either fix the power creep in the best way possible remove LA/AC and tone down crit to 50% (and/or add DPS caps to bosses or w/sdmg, stat caps across board) or keep nerfing everyone trying to solve that or give us better companions or whatever.

I wasn't expecting to get such a creative answer to beat around the bush that light attacks increase dps by 100% to be honest.
But you are correct, it was a very bad example.
https://imgur.com/a/si95LVl | This one is actually one i made for Liko's channel during the greymoor patch.
Yes the burning is from maw for the most part, not from the weapon enchant.

P.S this was done with staff expert still being a thing in CP but hey that only works in your benefit .

I actually don't have time for playing this game, but obviously templars have massive amount of channeled skills that make LA/AC less doable especially in execute phase, that's like showing a heavy attack parse and saying see no light attacks. And crit is off the charts so proving my point again.

But this did make me think of another thing ZOS should think about, they tried to tweak these major/minor buffs but only succeeded in nerfing low-mid while not effecting hgh end dps which was the goal. I propose LIMITING # of buffs anyone can have a 1 time to 4, this will dramatically reduce the insane FREE damage at top/trial without effecting everyone else.

Nymzy

Merforum wrote: »

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Nymzy wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Since it has been conclusively proven that

1. light attack animation canceling substantially increases DPS
2. people can get great DPS without doing it
3. it represent most of the discrepancy between mid and higher level DPS
4. with high ping rate it is unattainable to many

Zos could look at fixing this if 'lowering the ceiling' is a true goal.

BTW just tested on PTS with 50 ping (never spiked to 999+ once OMG), and I can actually do LA/AC much easier, I would almost say if they could fix their live server so most people had less than 100-200ms ping, it would be make this issue less extreme

1. Substantially is a subjective term. You keep using 30k as the number, then later you say 30-100%. These arent true no matter how many times you repeat them, and you are inflating the values. LAs come down to the Damage it self, ult generation, and enchant procs (these can come from other sources). A perfected rotation resulting in 100k would be probably in the low 80s with no weave. LA weaving is 50% of your APMs for call it 20% (maybe 25%) of damage. Seems like a pretty good spot.

2. Again, great is subjective. Enough to clear content? Yep! Enough to push all the tri-fectas (clearly the game is balanced around LA weaving), nope. In fact, I take the other side of this argument. No reason to mess with it. You dont need to do it to clear content, but you do need to do it and practice it if you want all the difficult achievements and titles. Again, Seems like a pretty good spot. Every everyone could install ESO and get Godslayer, the title would have no meaning.

3. Hard disagree. The rotation itself is what does it. Weaving is a small part of the rotation (and frankly one of the easier parts), but not even close to the whole thing. Skill order and pace and much more important.

4. Inconsistent ping can cause issues, but high ping should not. I can parse close to 100k on a dummy, but I play with Aussies that can wipe the floor with me, and their ping is quadruple mine. I will say that with high ping, animation canceling does look much more choppy. But I am never going to get on board with balancing the game around high ping.

To be candid, you didn't conclusively prove anything. You are trying to deal in absolutes when everything is a shade of grey. If you are only pulling 30k on a dummy, animation canceling is very low on your list of problems.

1. You yourself conclusively proved it, that using the exact same build/rotation (which BTW seems fishy because there are no heavy attacks and never runs out of Mag and spamming crystal frag would never work in reality) but original was 100K, yours was 70K so that is 30% decrease. I will not go into it for the hundredth time but LA damage itself is only PART of the benefit. LA/AC allows you to get 2 action in 1 sec, which as you point out LA gives you ult/glyph/etc, so if you get 1 LA per sec extra all that stuff has chance to go off, compared to if you do LA without LA/AC each LA cost a GCD (you have to CHOOSE when to do LA or skill, it creates an opportunity cost, not just FREE LA with all the benefits of it)
And 100% increase is actually easy, I went from like 8K DPS to 16K with just doing LA/AC about 30%, so it has diminishing returns but still SUBSTANTIAL.

2. GREAT means enough to easily clear all content in the game. Any achievements which 99% of people could care less about would just be scaled to having max DPS at 70K for everyone, that is easy.

3. I said MOST, but actually crit chance/damage is probably the other biggest factor, if those were capped at 50% then the insane powercreep would also be much reduced (bringing mid level closer to high end DPS). BTW just like what YOU PROVED with the dummy, we are talking about using the exact same rotation and changing other variables (like LA/CA or I'd also like to see 50% crit cap). If we were talking about a terrible rotation vs a good rotation that is completely different topic. And I would agree that it was very important, but that deals with going from a beginner to a mid level, what we are addressing here is why is a mid level person with same gear/rotation/etc having 30+% less DPS than higher end.

4. Everyone positively knows lag is a big issue and I am talking about spiking to 999+, not just being over 150 ping, I spent a week on PTS with FPS 40-60 (on live it is 30 cause I also have old laptop which doesn't help either) and ping about 60, and it is night and day difference, like I said when I can literally SEE LA/AC happen I can actually do it, on live the animation is too slow to know when to cancel it, but as I said I could see using PTS to train yourself how to do it, then try in live, on PTS I saw 999+ I think once on live I see it all the time, if you don't know what red 999+ is you are super lucky

Thank you very much for helping to definitively prove that LA/AC should be seriously looked into by ZOS.

[Snip]
1. This is exactly what people do. In trials too. They get good results.
2. Well, most of it is "easily" passable with that damage if everyone are following mechanics.
3. No. It won't. It will just make no one build into crit, people will build into other things, other things will be "meta" and people like you will still be on the forums crying that meta gear should be nerfed, even though it is barely 5% above non meta gear.
4. Now that's something we can agree on! Most of the l2p issues players have with the game, are the bugs and lags, if zos really wants to "higher the floor" they should fix those.


PS, from your last message, it really feels like your beef is not with animation canceling, but bad latency, be it on your side, or server side, you can't blame latency for "animation canceling" while in truth your pc just won't play what it should in time.

[Snip]

1. LA/AC represents 30-100% of DPS, CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN, it's unnecessary part of game and removing it would instantly fix a big part of DPS gap between mid/top
2. Everyone agrees 70K DPS is good enough for all content, even if there was something that require more ZOS could simply tune it down, meaning this is also POSITIVELY PROVEN
3. When every single Mag toon in PVE can replace any set they have with Mother Sorrow and that alone increase DPS, Crit is overtuned, this is also DEFINITELY PROVEN, BTW ZOS already knows crit is too high and is making changes to fix it so arguing the opposite at this point seems very weird
4. Thank you this one is so obvious anyone who denies it is really just lying

BTW by using PTS I have proven for myself that while my laptop is not good (my connection is great on fiber gig) it is more the 'live' server that has problems that is causing lag. I suggest ZOS upgrades to new/better servers and makes sure before moving over that the networking is perfect.

1. 30-100% is kind of a big margin, for very light attack intensive classes like nightblades the damage increase is 25% for top tier players. https://imgur.com/a/WIq9Da3 (20% of the total damage, 25% increase opposed to not weaving)
2. How are people going to hit 70k dps when lightattacks are removed if they cannot even hit it with lightattacks? It's not solving the issue of new players lacking damage, content is not getting adjusted
3. Harpooners wading kilt, a well thought out change to make crit stacking less appealing indeed.
4. Yes high ping is annoying.

1.Just from your picture I can see elemental weapon at 7.8K, fiery weapon 4K, burning 3.7K, so there is extra 15+K you are conveniently ignoring. Those are FREE procs from LA, which is FREE if LA/AC is used. BTW I will also say that 'assassins will' for 9K is proccing 2X as fast because you can do LA for FREE every second, so you not only get a skill cast + LA every second, you get assassin's will every 5 seconds. Tell me how often that would happen without LA/AC. WHOLLY crap your example is worse than others I have see with all the FREE LA/AC damage in that rotation. And what about Proccing Zaan. Here's the test, use exact same build/rotation without LA/AC, this will be way less than 70K DPS for sure.

2. Luckily we already had one of our experts test without LA/AC and it was 70K DPS, so they can still do all content. Don't try to change the subject to what beginners can or can't do that is off topic, BTW they adjust content all the time and actually have said they don't want people bypassing mechs so either they continue to increase boss health which just makes it harder to mid level or reduce DPS at top (which they've said many times is a goal and the reason for my suggestion and this thread), they could also just put DPS caps on bosses which would also solve the problem

3.BTW to my third point look at that crit chance 79% and crit damage 117%, OMG that is insane. Harpooner's is to get trial players to buy expansion, is that not completely obvious, then they'll nerf it

It is pretty obvious that removing LA/AC and reducing crit chance/dmg to 50% cap, would help to 'lower the ceiling' of insane power creep while at the same time NOT Nerfing low-mid DPS. No one is arguing the reality of the facts just hoping ZOS won't realize this to be easiest path to solving these issues.

1. If light attack weaving was to get removed proc set's and skills that have light attacks as their proc requirement would get adjusted to work in another way, for all I care this would have been a petsorc using maw and deadric prey, literally the same damage as zaan. Elemental weapon is a skill GCD, it being the exception to the rule of requiring a light attack to empower (what a coincidence, almost like it was intented) could have been literally any other spammable in the game like forcepulse, aertherial burst or blood for blood which has a much higher tooltip anyway while not requiring a light attack. And last, weapons enchants also proc from weapon abilities.

2. 70k dummy dps is not enough to complete all achievements in the game, if it were there wouldn't be only 5 groups with Godslayer in the first year of release.

3. They could have literally made that mythic tons of other ways to make it increase damage without buffing crit stacking. meanwhile they specifically chose to increase crit damage. Besides this mythic is separate from elemental catalyst which was introduced with the nerf to precise weapons. These choices were consciously made.

YOU sent that parse to me as some proof but I blew it out of the water because it showed EXACTLY the OPPOSITE. I am getting so tired of this and think I am done. Think what you want, I don't really care. ZOS will either fix the power creep in the best way possible remove LA/AC and tone down crit to 50% (and/or add DPS caps to bosses or w/sdmg, stat caps across board) or keep nerfing everyone trying to solve that or give us better companions or whatever.

I wasn't expecting to get such a creative answer to beat around the bush that light attacks increase dps by 100% to be honest.
But you are correct, it was a very bad example.
https://imgur.com/a/si95LVl | This one is actually one i made for Liko's channel during the greymoor patch.
Yes the burning is from maw for the most part, not from the weapon enchant.

P.S this was done with staff expert still being a thing in CP but hey that only works in your benefit .

1. I actually don't have time for playing this game, but obviously templars have massive amount of channeled skills that make LA/AC less doable especially in execute phase, that's like showing a heavy attack parse and saying see no light attacks. And crit is off the charts so proving my point again.

2. But this did make me think of another thing ZOS should think about, they tried to tweak these major/minor buffs but only succeeded in nerfing low-mid while not effecting hgh end dps which was the goal. I propose LIMITING # of buffs anyone can have a 1 time to 4, this will dramatically reduce the insane FREE damage at top/trial without effecting everyone else.

1.Literally no channeled skills before before execute, 13 radiant oppression casts with a channel time of 1.8 seconds is 10 light attacks lost, a 5% gain on lightattack damage, wow. (besides, there is staff expert present and i provide my full uptime of empower).
Also what is wrong with stacking crit, like you see any difference slapping on BSW, scathing, julianos, warmaiden or what ever set. They are all sets that boost stats, they are invisible. And actually, Stacking Siroria (spelldamage) with crit is more efficiënt than stacking 2 crit sets. It's almost like there is some sort of variation

2. [Snip]

[Edited for bait]

zvavi

Merforum wrote: »

But this did make me think of another thing ZOS should think about, they tried to tweak these major/minor buffs but only succeeded in nerfing low-mid while not effecting hgh end dps which was the goal. I propose LIMITING # of buffs anyone can have a 1 time to 4, this will dramatically reduce the insane FREE damage at top/trial without effecting everyone else.

Long ago, we had not many buffs in game. People run 8 same class in trials as damage dealers, since then zos introduced strong class buffs, and class sets, to ensure people will want to run more variety. Reducing buffs to 4 will bring us back to groups of 8 X class dds.

Merforum

Thanks for all the comments and info. Looks like If ZOS wants to close the gap between high DPS and mid level there are a few good suggestion on the table:

1. Fix LA/AC, either make LA in same GCD, remove LA/make medium light, or widen window for it to register to make it much easier to do (something like 1 skill per second or 1 skill plus LA every 1.5 sec with correct animation)

2. Cap Crit chance and damage at 50% each

3. Reduce # of Buffs on 1 player at a time, and don't let major/minor of same thing stack but maybe keep a few class passive buffs outside of that for build/class diversity, ALTHOUGH PVPer will NOT like that part so SEPARATE PVE and PVP

4. CAP DPS per boss per area, for instance don't allow more than 40K group DPS to normal dungeon bosses, not more than 80K group DPS to Vet dungeon, maybe cap individual DPS to 40K per DD in normal trial and 70K for Vet, (super easy fix in PVE but not for PVP, unless you cap individual DPS to maybe 10K in PVP that could work and cap healing at 5K)

5.Use CAPs on various stats that are being stacked and overpowered
a. mag/stam/health 40K max/ recovery also 2K max
b. w/s dmag 4-6K max (4K in normal/PVP, 6K in vet content)
c. see #2 crit cap
d. whatever else is being overly stacked

zvavi

Merforum wrote: »

Thanks for all the comments and info. Looks like If ZOS wants to close the gap between high DPS and mid level there are a few good suggestion on the table:

1. Fix LA/AC, either make LA in same GCD, remove LA/make medium light, or widen window for it to register to make it much easier to do (something like 1 skill per second or 1 skill plus LA every 1.5 sec with correct animation)

2. Cap Crit chance and damage at 50% each

3. Reduce # of Buffs on 1 player at a time, and don't let major/minor of same thing stack but maybe keep a few class passive buffs outside of that for build/class diversity, ALTHOUGH PVPer will NOT like that part so SEPARATE PVE and PVP

4. CAP DPS per boss per area, for instance don't allow more than 40K group DPS to normal dungeon bosses, not more than 80K group DPS to Vet dungeon, maybe cap individual DPS to 40K per DD in normal trial and 70K for Vet, (super easy fix in PVE but not for PVP, unless you cap individual DPS to maybe 10K in PVP that could work and cap healing at 5K)

5.Use CAPs on various stats that are being stacked and overpowered
a. mag/stam/health 40K max/ recovery also 2K max
b. w/s dmag 4-6K max (4K in normal/PVP, 6K in vet content)
c. see #2 crit cap
d. whatever else is being overly stacked

Meh mate. If zos wants to higher floor, they should do 2 things.
1. Fix their game (bugs, lags, optimize it more, etc etc)
2. Create in-game proper tutorials and training grounds.

Anything you suggested is dumbing down the game, you are asking for:
1. Slower combat.
2. Gear to not matter. (It doesn't even balance stam Vs mag correctly, since stamina gets bonus weapon damage from armor).
3. Buffs to not matter (heck, people will be forced to NOT bring buffs, to ensure only the strongest one exists).
4. Ultimates to not matter (since during ultimate time your damage spikes up above your usual damage)
5. Gear to not matter, again.

You may enjoy such a game, I wouldn't. As I mentioned the previous list of what zos should really do, there are ways to help floor without dumbing down the game.

Merforum

zvavi wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Thanks for all the comments and info. Looks like If ZOS wants to close the gap between high DPS and mid level there are a few good suggestion on the table:

1. Fix LA/AC, either make LA in same GCD, remove LA/make medium light, or widen window for it to register to make it much easier to do (something like 1 skill per second or 1 skill plus LA every 1.5 sec with correct animation)

2. Cap Crit chance and damage at 50% each

3. Reduce # of Buffs on 1 player at a time, and don't let major/minor of same thing stack but maybe keep a few class passive buffs outside of that for build/class diversity, ALTHOUGH PVPer will NOT like that part so SEPARATE PVE and PVP

4. CAP DPS per boss per area, for instance don't allow more than 40K group DPS to normal dungeon bosses, not more than 80K group DPS to Vet dungeon, maybe cap individual DPS to 40K per DD in normal trial and 70K for Vet, (super easy fix in PVE but not for PVP, unless you cap individual DPS to maybe 10K in PVP that could work and cap healing at 5K)

5.Use CAPs on various stats that are being stacked and overpowered
a. mag/stam/health 40K max/ recovery also 2K max
b. w/s dmag 4-6K max (4K in normal/PVP, 6K in vet content)
c. see #2 crit cap
d. whatever else is being overly stacked

Meh mate. If zos wants to higher floor, they should do 2 things.
1. Fix their game (bugs, lags, optimize it more, etc etc)
2. Create in-game proper tutorials and training grounds.

Anything you suggested is dumbing down the game, you are asking for:
1. Slower combat.
2. Gear to not matter. (It doesn't even balance stam Vs mag correctly, since stamina gets bonus weapon damage from armor).
3. Buffs to not matter (heck, people will be forced to NOT bring buffs, to ensure only the strongest one exists).
4. Ultimates to not matter (since during ultimate time your damage spikes up above your usual damage)
5. Gear to not matter, again.

You may enjoy such a game, I wouldn't. As I mentioned the previous list of what zos should really do, there are ways to help floor without dumbing down the game.

1. Yes everyone wants bug/lag fixes, new hardware.
2. On PTS right now they have 'combat tips' which tells people when to block/roll/interrupt which is really great and wish I had from beginning, also the have companions which will help the 'floor', which is not the issue at all

But none of that or anything many people say on this forum addresses the insane power creep, which ZOS knows is a big problem and should address directly with any of my suggestions. The fact that you personally benefit from such overtuning is why you are constantly going on threads trying to convince people that anything that could fix that is bad idea. ZOS will either fix it or they won't.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Merforum wrote: »

Thanks for all the comments and info. Looks like If ZOS wants to close the gap between high DPS and mid level there are a few good suggestion on the table:

1. Fix LA/AC, either make LA in same GCD, remove LA/make medium light, or widen window for it to register to make it much easier to do (something like 1 skill per second or 1 skill plus LA every 1.5 sec with correct animation)

2. Cap Crit chance and damage at 50% each

3. Reduce # of Buffs on 1 player at a time, and don't let major/minor of same thing stack but maybe keep a few class passive buffs outside of that for build/class diversity, ALTHOUGH PVPer will NOT like that part so SEPARATE PVE and PVP

4. CAP DPS per boss per area, for instance don't allow more than 40K group DPS to normal dungeon bosses, not more than 80K group DPS to Vet dungeon, maybe cap individual DPS to 40K per DD in normal trial and 70K for Vet, (super easy fix in PVE but not for PVP, unless you cap individual DPS to maybe 10K in PVP that could work and cap healing at 5K)

5.Use CAPs on various stats that are being stacked and overpowered
a. mag/stam/health 40K max/ recovery also 2K max
b. w/s dmag 4-6K max (4K in normal/PVP, 6K in vet content)
c. see #2 crit cap
d. whatever else is being overly stacked

While your suggestions would reduce top dps, I honestly doubt it would reduce the gap. Instead it would increase the need to have a perfect group composition for the boss you fight.
Right now most buff sets are relatively well balanced, so it doesn't matter much which set you wear as a tank or healer, as long as you get a good uptime on the sets you use. But if you put caps on stats you can get a situation where the "mid level" healer wearing spell power cure adds nothing to the group because everyone is already at the weapon damage cap, while the healer in the "high level" group checked everyones weapon damage and the available buffs before the fight and decided to use e.g. martial knowledge instead of spell power cure.
Capping dps will have a huge impact on balance between classes or builds. Keep in mind, that there are some classes that have very consistant damage, while others have high damage spikes with phases of lower damage inbetween. So if you put a cap, the consistant build will easiely manage, while the "spiky" build will suffer loosing its damage spikes.

In my opinion a better way to address this would be to design fights in a way, so they become mechanically more difficult when you have higher dps. Have adds and mini bosses spawn based on boss hp and not on a timer, don't allow us to skip mechanics with high dps and instead make multiple mechanics happen in rapid succession if we have too high dps.
Maybe even let the boss enrage more and more when he takes too much damage.