(ZOS is missing the point) Let us choose our tutorial quest not just starting location

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Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676794
  • Elsonso
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    Nay, I'm good with just choosing starting location but not tutorial quest
    Inval1d wrote: »

    This was on the patch notes. Is the new tutorial only available if you own Blackwood then? Otherwise, why did they bother changing this if this tutorial won't be playable anymore?

    I was wondering that, myself. They seem to be investing time fiddling with content that they seemingly want to move people away from.
    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
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  • Lyserus
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    Elsonso wrote: »

    I was wondering that, myself. They seem to be investing time fiddling with content that they seemingly want to move people away from.

    Many, I mean too many times did ZOS announce something we wanted, and turned out they miss the point completely :/
  • Chrisbar
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    Honestly, why can't we just have a lobby post character creation and the option of where to start with the tutorial thereof?

    Drop us in the Colored Rooms and let Meridia give us some big speech about our potential to save the world and let her offer us our choice of the beginning zone.

    Those who want to skip the tutorial can skip the lobby altogether.

    I missed seeing the tutorials for Vvardenfell and Summerset and would like the chance to play them someday...
  • Destai
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    Nay, I'm good with just choosing starting location but not tutorial quest
    Happy the thread title was updated, definitely seems like ZOS hasn't thought through all the considerations with adding a universal tutorial. With just a little input, we hopefully can enlighten ZOS on how to better shape content to meet our needs and playing habits.

    So basically here's a summary of what the thread is proposing:
    1. Old tutorials are valuable because they provide cool locations and experiences.
    2. Those experiences should be divorced from the tutorial experience when the new tutorial experience launches.
    3. Old tutorials should serve as an introduction when selecting a given storyline from Balfiera.
    4. Balfiera should explain all combat mechanics and games basics.

    The questions I'd post to everyone:
    1. Is there value in having Balfiera be revisited? If so, should it be a solo instance like Harborage or a true hub? If so, should travel to be free like a room at an inn?
    2. In addition to teaching game basics, should Balfiera also train players on horse leveling and give them skill lines for FG, MG, and Undaunted?
    3. How should prologues be associated with their corresponding storylines in Balfiera, if at all?
    Edited by Destai on April 21, 2021 1:40PM
  • Danikat
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    If the choice is between being locked into a chapter-specific tutorial or the new generic tutorial then I'll take the new one, but I agree that being able to choose your tutorial and not just the map you go to afterwards would be much better.

    The new tutorial is much better for me because it leaves where you were and what you were doing before totally ambiguous - all you're told is you dropped out a portal and there's dozens of ways that could have happened in TES so it's not restricting if you want to make up your own backstory. (For example my sorcerer could have opened the portal himself, my thief could have accidentally activated an artefact he 'found' and my warden could have been sent through one by a daedric cult she was infiltrating.) Similarly it lets you choose where to go and leaves your reasons for choosing it totally up to you. Maybe you were already involved in the Alliance war and you're keen to get back there as soon as possible. Maybe you were on your way to a particular place and a portal at or close to your destination is actually a bonus. Maybe you just want to get as far from where you were as possible.

    The problem is there's a pretty huge disconnect between ending this tutorial and starting the main story of whichever destination you choose. You literally appear from thin air near some NPCs who are entirely unsurprised by your appearance (in spite of many of them mentioning being suspicious of strangers) and they're asking you to help, assuming you will, with no explanation for why they'd trust you or expect help or why you might be inclined to help them.

    All that could be fixed if finishing this tutorial put you into the tutorial for the chapter you've chosen. The tutorial elements could be removed, like the Coldharbour one where if you've already done a tutorial you're not locked into using specific attacks, so it's more like a normal quest than a second tutorial, but you get the introduction to the storyline you've chosen.
    PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

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  • NettleCarrier
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    I just wanted the option to do the Summerset tutorial because I have never done it before - whenever I do actually make a new character. Instead that small bit of content is forever locked to me because I bought chapters after Summerset :/
    GM of Gold Coast Corsairs - PCNA
  • Serenez
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    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/570840/tutorial-miss-fire#latest

    As stated in my comments in the above linked thread I believe the Tutorial and Storyline should be separate from one another.

    I give my reasoning in one post and also identify a possible quest problem (loop back) with the current PTS Tutorial.

    I didn't answer the poll because what I want is a brand new neutral tutorial (no storyline) that teaches basics/new tools/tips etc. plus give players an option to where to start their 'storyline' that isn't confusing or conflicting.

    To see my explanations please see the link above :)

    BTW side note- love the new PTS stacking style pages ! OMG and that can go in personal bank too :) thank you !
  • Túrin_Vidsmidr
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    Yes, starting in a DLC zone makes n0 sense.
    But whatever you want to promote... just let me choose the original Coldharbour dungeon so my character gets established as the Vestige instead of Vampire Snack.
    The best techniques are passed on by the survivors.
  • Aelthwyn
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    I would definitely like to be able to choose the tutorial. I feel like different ones fit better with different characters I create. I also just kind of miss some of the old ones. I don't care if I have to do two tutorials in a row, so long as I get to go back to the k'tora mind trap or the star haven adeptorium.

    Alternately, it might be cool if there was an option to do those chapter intro quests the first time your character travels to the zone it came with. Perhaps there could be a boat or caravan to that location you could choose to take instead of the wayshrine that would then send you into that intro quest. So you could actually do more than one on each character as part of the story of how they came to those places.
  • Lyserus
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    over 120 votes for yes and overall percentage is over 80%, when is the last time you see such united opinion for a single matter on forum? :p

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
    Please let the dev team know our voice!
  • Serenez
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    The issue here is that people are all missing the point of what a Tutorial is actually for.

    Brand New Players
    -- need to learn how to use basic skills/interactions. Old Tutorials do not give the updated combat training that the new ones do. The game will evolve over time and there absolutely needs to be a separate generic tutorial that can be improved upon without too much game story intertwined.

    Currently the Tutorial has lost it's meaning as to the actual purpose of it. I can understand the story immersion aspect from a role players point of view and the 'replay' factor. The entire premise though of what a Tutorial is actually for should not be lost. Tutorials should never be so intertwined with a storyline that they cannot be separated, as this is the problem and where we are at now.

    It is assumed that most people just know how to play an MMO and understand basic fundamentals. Over the past several years, I lost track of how many people I had to show what a wayshrine was, what a Mundas stone was, how to get a horse, what an NPC banker is, and yes how to quickslot potions, to visit bookshelves, look into urns. When there are players well into starting their CP grind do not have a Mundas equipped, know to eat/drink food to improve, understand the fundamentals between wearing armor and the associated skill lines there is a failure of the teaching tools. People that have played these kinds of games take for granted they learned these skills in other games and look for the counterparts in ESO. For those that pick up a computer game for the first time or first time playing an MMO they are truly and completely lost. They do not even know what 'tank' means.

    So while I understand from a replay/roleplay perspective and storyline aspect how you wish to start the (Tutorial) where you want, but I think from what I am hearing it is really the immersion storyline that you are most concerned with and nostalgia of being 'born' in certain lands. This leaves new players in the dust when it comes to 'how to play' as some of the older tutorials do not teach the combat training to the extent the new ones do.

    New players won't know the difference from old tutorial to new if they haven't seen the old ones before. People who are role playing and re-playing do not need to 'learn how to play' so there is no need to go through combat training.

    Could the game recognize a new install of the game and offer the Tutorial (the newest version) to the player so that it can do what it is meant to to and teach the fundamentals of the game necessary to play without any MMO experience. Teach them whatever the latest and current combat techniques etc. Then for players who have already gone through a generic tutorial can skip this but 'choose' from a menu option where they wish to be 'born' in for immersion purposes can choose the 'tutorial old story version) of the chapters or be simply teleported to the wayshrine of their desired land of choice.

    So what I am proposing is: (before creating a specific character)

    1. Have a generic character neutral Tutorial at the beginning of the game launch that teaches basic fundamentals of the game. Gives skills required to understand the fundamentals. Also introduce the Alliances, explain what the different races are, classes are, roles are (tank, dd, healer etc), basic combat skills, Mundas, skyshards, importance of food/drink and armor choices, and attributes like magicka, stamina, health etc.

    2. THEN have the player make their character with the knowledge above and it would assist them in choosing which alliance, which race, which class etc.

    3. THEN have them select where to start and simplify it . a) Main Base Game storyline, and Chapter Storylines and just have the person select if they wish to have the old Tutorial version for immersion purposes or just ported right to a wayshrine.

    This would give everyone I think what is really needed. People could at any time visit the 'generic character neutral' tutorial when they need a refresher. It can be updated at any time with the newest changes and not break the immersion of the game for the roleplayers. It would also give people the option in the menu after character selection to just pick Main Game, Chapters etc and then if they wish to re-do the old Tutorial for story purposes or just port to where they want.

    Going forward - remove any aspect of Tutorial from any Chapter release that is so embedded in the storyline that it can't be divorced from it without causing problems.

    With this solution it gives new players a real basic/neutral Tutorial that can be updated at any time without causing immersion issues. It gives more info to the new player so they can make informed choices with the character creation menu. It gives players the opportunity from the start menu to 'replay' generic tutorial for refresher. It gives role players the 'replay' nostalgia aspect of giving them a choice of revisiting the old Tutorials simply for the immersion aspect. (with disclaimer at menu screen that the combat tutorial is outdated and or missing altogether, and for an updated generalized tutorial see the generic one) It also gives players the option to skip and simply be ported to the wayshrine. It would also hopefully give the Developers more leeway to create new Chapter storylines without being hindered of having to add a Tutorial into the mix.

    The above solution should
    1. Reestablish what a Tutorial is (to teach fundamentals) and completely divorce it form the storyline of the Main game or Chapter.
    2. Give Roleplayers - the replay factor and nostalgia of being 'born again' in those chapters if they wish to re-visit the old outdated Tutorials with the disclaimer of course before the start that the 'tutorial aspect' is outdated and do they wish to continue etc.
    3. Give players an opportunity to revisit the generic Tutorial from main menu, for combat or game refresher without breaking immersion.
    4. Give a foundation for Developers to add to the Generic Tutorial with Dungeon and Trial foundations etc or any updated content fundamentals,. Completely separate from the main storylines once again without breaking immersion.
    5. Give the Developers more freedom of creating a more immersive storyline for each chapter without being hindered with re-creating tutorials over and over again and re-creating this nostalgia-loop that keeps occurring.
  • zvavi
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    Nay, I'm good with just choosing starting location but not tutorial quest
    i know gameplay wise it is much more immersive and fun, but thing is, tutorials became better with time, if they want to make it more immersive, and better, it would take much more work. i mean, if they are willing to go that extra mile, i am all for it, but since i believe the alternative is worse tutorials, but with choice, i prefer it the way it is on the pts.
  • WithMyLaserGun
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    Agree! We should definitely be able to choose our tutorial and starting location!
  • Enodoc
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    Inval1d wrote: »
    This was on the patch notes. Is the new tutorial only available if you own Blackwood then? Otherwise, why did they bother changing this if this tutorial won't be playable anymore?
    I was wondering the same thing :stuck_out_tongue:

    Elsonso wrote: »
    Nope. I want them to make a tutorial quest and then stick with it. No more new tutorial quests each Chapter. One tutorial quest to rule them all.
    Consider an alternative wording to the question - one tutorial quest, but allow us to choose which story introduction quest to play after that tutorial is complete. i.e., choose one of the same introductory quests as before for each story, but with the tutorial aspects removed.
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  • Elsonso
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    Nay, I'm good with just choosing starting location but not tutorial quest
    Enodoc wrote: »
    Consider an alternative wording to the question - one tutorial quest, but allow us to choose which story introduction quest to play after that tutorial is complete. i.e., choose one of the same introductory quests as before for each story, but with the tutorial aspects removed.

    There is another thread where I suggest this in response to something you said there.

    Basically... strip out the tutorial part of the chapter tutorials and have the gates lead there. Reduce the three alliance gates to one gate and have that end up in the wailing prison before moving to the alliance zone.

    They are not going to do anything like this. They have game or budget goals that are opposed to story and lore goals, and the former wins out over the latter. This is leading to continuity errors all over the place, but I figure that these are all lessons learned for the next game, not this one.
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  • Wildberryjack
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    I thought that was what they were going to do and was very disappointed to learn it wasn't the case. I also don't think they should make some generic starter area like WoW just did because it's lame.
    The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls. ~Pablo Picasso
  • Iccotak
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    Elsonso wrote: »

    There is another thread where I suggest this in response to something you said there.

    Basically... strip out the tutorial part of the chapter tutorials and have the gates lead there. Reduce the three alliance gates to one gate and have that end up in the wailing prison before moving to the alliance zone.

    That is what should have been done.

    After the tutorial, Players should have been dropped in the story introduction of their choice.

    I guess the reason ZOS did not do that is they wanted players to be able to immediately join up with their friends after the tutorial. which makes sense - but for New Players (and those wanting story semblance) dropping them in a Main Quest of their choice would give them a sense of direction
    Edited by Iccotak on April 22, 2021 5:01PM
  • Elsonso
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    Nay, I'm good with just choosing starting location but not tutorial quest
    Iccotak wrote: »

    That is what should have been done.

    After the tutorial, Players should have been dropped in the story introduction of their choice.

    I guess the reason ZOS did not do that is they wanted players to be able to immediately join up with their friends after the tutorial. which makes sense - but for New Players (and those wanting story semblance) dropping them in a Main Quest of their choice would give them a sense of direction

    Yeah, ZOS seems to be rather obsessed with getting players right to the game world. I am amazed that they even do a character generation and tutorial for new users, as this adds agonizing torturous minutes to that time. They could just drop them immediately in Blackwood with a random character, letting them use Crown stuff to change race and appearances. They can even randomly assign the class, since new players have no idea what class they want, anyway. </sarcasm>
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  • Iccotak
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    Elsonso wrote: »

    Yeah, ZOS seems to be rather obsessed with getting players right to the game world. I am amazed that they even do a character generation and tutorial for new users, as this adds agonizing torturous minutes to that time. They could just drop them immediately in Blackwood with a random character, letting them use Crown stuff to change race and appearances. They can even randomly assign the class, since new players have no idea what class they want, anyway. </sarcasm>

    well who knows - they may change things with feedback

    the original Coldharbour tutorial/introduction was changed several times.
  • Destai
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    Nay, I'm good with just choosing starting location but not tutorial quest
    Serenez wrote: »
    The issue here is that people are all missing the point of what a Tutorial is actually for.
    [snipped for brevity]

    Excellent write up. Totally agree.

    Of my friends that have played this game, the tutorial and early experience was the worst part of their experience. Not only does the tutorial not equip you with a fundamental understanding of combat - but it doesn't give you enough skills to get a sense of the character until way later. I've known many people who just won't stick around for that.

    There's all these systems - guild/undaunted lines, Mundus, attributes, horse skill, and crafting writs - that additionally define the player experience and take a lot of legwork to get setup when creating a new character. I think the tutorial should explain these systems and get a new character equipped with them.

    Conversely, someone like myself who's played for years and makes an alt, I don't wanna go through all these hoops to get my 9th alt stood up. I've sunk 1500 hours into the game, and I want to make an alt and immediately get a sense of what a class is like. So if I want to see what a Magblade is like, I expect the tutorial to give me a sense of how it is. If there's not enough skills unlocked, it's pointless for me as a seasoned player.

    A lot of us are saying the same thing here - but whether it's communicated back to development or if it's etched in stone remains to be seen. Seems like a good idea that's being implemented poorly because again - we have no idea what's being communicated and considered with development.
    Edited by Destai on April 22, 2021 6:03PM
  • Destai
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    Nay, I'm good with just choosing starting location but not tutorial quest
    Iccotak wrote: »

    That is what should have been done.

    After the tutorial, Players should have been dropped in the story introduction of their choice.

    I guess the reason ZOS did not do that is they wanted players to be able to immediately join up with their friends after the tutorial. which makes sense - but for New Players (and those wanting story semblance) dropping them in a Main Quest of their choice would give them a sense of direction

    I think it's only fair to get players engaged with their friends ASAP. Many people join this game because they think it's Skyrim + friends. They then get in and find out it's not, only after they've waded through a million tutorials and noise. It's juggling act - teaching the game to people or getting them engaged - while having an alt-friendly experience.

    Personally, I think the first 14 levels are pointless and disjointed. Like why can I join dungeons before having weapon-swapping, a core mechanic. Having one tutorial gives ZOS a chance to address some of that clunkiness of the early game experience.

    Edited by Destai on April 22, 2021 7:20PM
  • Aertew
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    If a developer reads this. I would personally like it right after character creation
    Like when we pick a class its on the actual screen. I think after naming the character we have a selection of starting zones. So this would include
    -base game
    Followed by DLC's like
    -morrowind
    -Summerset
    -Elswheyr
    -Greymoor

    Then also have a option to disable tutorial
  • Serenez
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    This is a case of need vs want and is there a middle ground that is achievable.

    We 'need' a Tutorial to teach players. I doubt any one will question that this is a need.

    Players 'want' to start the story where they choose. This has been given to them with this new PTS tutorial. Maybe not how people envisioned it, but I do thank the Devs for their hard work and effort towards working on this.

    Roleplayers 'want' to revisit previous tutorials for the nostalgia story immersion. This is a want and not a need.

    Can the two be merged together in one solution? I proposed an idea in my previous post, however to have the Devs spend time on old content and 'stripping' an old tutorial from it, in my opinion is not the best use of their time or resources. We do not even know if revisiting 'old' tutorials is even possible or what that scope of work looks like. If the opportunity presents itself that revisiting old tutorials is being offered as an option, I would suggest that it be given secondary to a 'main'' generic updated tutorial that is necessary to teach people the basic fundamentals. I would suggest just leaving old tutorials unedited to reduce unnecessary Dev resources, editing old content and just put up a disclaimer that you are visiting previous content with a previously created tutorial for storyline purposes. To please see the updated tutorial for the updated combat content. This option would be less work then trying to edit out tutorial content.

    By divorcing a generalized tutorial from the storyline it breaks the cycle and allows for it to remain chapter after chapter untouched unless there needs to be an update to it. Their focus can then be on creating the Chapter storyline without having to make a new tutorial each and every time. In my opinion this would allow the Devs to update this tutorial at any given patch without it being married to the Chapters. It also creates a foundation to build upon when time and resources are available to potentially create an advanced combat tutorial, introduction to dungeon mechanics, and or trials etc. This could possibly be an addition down the road, once again when time and resources allow. By having it completely detached it opens up more possibilities.
  • NickFirzen
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    I think best would be to have this new one and after entering a portal, it should start its tutorial, but as a quest, for immersion and context on the zone. I mean cut only the teaching part, not all them... :disappointed: I missed out on Nayru's :cry:
  • Serenez
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    Having to revisit each old tutorial and precisely edit each part out and each dialogue that is connected to 'the teaching' aspects in my opinion would be a complete waste of the Devs time.

    Leaving old tutorials unedited would simply mean a player doing a tutorial twice in the same instance and accepting this as a compromise to get their old content while having the new content available to actually do the job of an actual tutorial. There would always be an option to 'skip',

    I think there needs to be a balance between wanting something and acknowledging the reality of the scope of work involved. For nostalgia purposes leaving the content untouched makes sense. All the dialogue is there just how players remember it to be. For brand new players .. well practice makes perfect. Doing a combat sequence twice will ensure they know what they are doing .(IF the chapter they choose even has a combat tutorial, as the earlier ones do not have it as entailed as the newer ones)

    The problem arises if people are asking to just use the 'old tutorials' as the tutorials just because they want it for immersion and story line .. brand new players would lose out on an updated tutorial that contains the new combat tutorial component. I do not see this as a viable option. New players must have a proper tutorial to learn fundamentals.

    Also we do not even know if visiting 'old tutorials' is even an option a the moment or what that particular scope of work would look like.
  • Danikat
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    Serenez wrote: »
    Having to revisit each old tutorial and precisely edit each part out and each dialogue that is connected to 'the teaching' aspects in my opinion would be a complete waste of the Devs time.

    Have you done the Coldharbour tutorial on a character who started in a chapter map?

    They could do exactly what they've done there - keep all the steps, all the dialogue the same and just take out the tutorial bits where you're frozen in place with prompts on screen until you complete a specific action.

    You still have to fight the enemies who previously acted as part of that tutorial but you're free to attack them however you like instead of restricted to only light or heavy attacks.
    Serenez wrote: »
    Also we do not even know if visiting 'old tutorials' is even an option a the moment or what that particular scope of work would look like.

    We know they're still in the game and still functional because they have to be to accomodate players who don't own the latest chapter. ZOS still sell the base game + Morrowind as a discount option and anyone who buys it will get the Morrowind tutorial. If they then choose to buy Summerset or Elseweyr from the crown store but not Greymoor they'll go through the tutorial for Summerset or Elseweyr.

    This isn't asking for ancient and obsolete content which hasn't been in the game for years and has missed numerous updates to be ressurected based on whatever code someone happened to save at the time. They made changes to the Elseweyr tutorial in the last update and the others are all still there and still functional, they're just inaccessible to most players right now.
    PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

    "Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"
  • Inval1d
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    Aye, let us choose our tutorial quest
    Sin_titulo-1.jpg

    I solved this problem ZOS! All you gotta do now is implement it!

    (Just imagine it says "Morrowind" or any other first zone instead of Blackwood)
  • Serenez
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    People are commenting that the combat/tutorial aspects could just be removed from the old tutorials.

    On the outside looking in this looks relatively simple.

    From a programming/coding/editing/development aspect we simply do not know what the scope is, or if it is possible to intertwine the old with the new. Editing may not be as simple as it appears. We do not know how much of a time sync this would be for Devs to edit old tutorial content from every single chapter. Also if they spend time on this .. it means it takes away time polishing the rest of the Chapter release or fixing other content in the game that actually 'needs' fixing' Once again this is a want and not a 'need' and only the Developers can respond 'if' this is possible' within the scope of time/resources currently available.

    So 'if' this is even an option to add old tutorial content into current game character creations it should not be replacing a generic updated tutorial, but used as a secondary tool for teaching to fill in any gaps that were missed.

    And yes .. I have completed the Main Coldharbour questline on multiple characters on multiple platforms/servers to the end of the questline. I have played all the Chapter Tutorials and Questlines. I have not finished 'all' the DLC questlines however those are irrelevant as they do not contain tutorials. I have completed all the Alliance questlines however not all on the same character.
  • Chaos2088
    Chaos2088
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    Nay, I'm good with just choosing starting location but not tutorial quest
    I like the way they ahve done it. It is easier for everyone if they have the same start zone, makes it more clear where you can go in the world and where you will start/give you a choice.

    Also when they add new chapters its easier to slot it and also dev's dont ahve to spend all that time making a new area for a tutorial.

    Just would like the old areas in game (like the island off Vvardenfel) to be in game as a player house or new dungeon/delve/quest area. So doesn't just get left behind as another blank space on the map.
    @Chaos2088 PC EU Server | AD-PvP
  • Thechuckage
    Thechuckage
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    Seems like asking for anything here is like wishing on a monkey's paw. You'll see something happen, but you won't like it.
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