A proposed shake of Green Tree

spartaxoxo

The way this system currently functions is unbeleafable, and the complaints about it are numerous. This thread won't rehash these old complaints, as there are many other spinners who have woven these tales much better than I care to here. Instead, I have deciduously and with great care proposed a new way to structure these branches. I hope you find this thread arbors a solution that can work to improve the game.

Okay no more tree puns. Anyway, I think we can all agree we don't want to constantly slot a new passive for every little resource we decide to pick, barter, open, steal, or loot. At the same time, ZOS doesn't want us to have all the bonuses and to make meaningful choices.

So I tried to balance this POV.

First off is that all active slots that increase odds, resource loot speed, item values or flat chances are now passive.

This means the following active skills are now passive

Cutpurse's Art
Infamous
Meticulous Disassembly
Master Gatherer
Treasure Hunter
Plentiful Harvest
Reel Technique
Rationer
Sustaining Shadows
Professional Upkeep
Fade Away


Skills that buff your speed, give new abilites, or enhance the way we interact with loot in unique ways remain active

These are

Gifted Rider
War Mount
Homemaker
Angler's Instinct
Liquid Effiency
Steed's Blessing
Friends in Low Places
Shadow Strike

By reducing the active skills to only those things which feel like they are uniquely enhancing our characters, feel like real mini skills, or ones that respect the various reasons we may want to move at base speed (certain jumps, roleplaying, etc), I think we can reduce the amount the green tree feels like busywork while still encouraging us to make choices about what we want slotted at any given time.

Alright that's all I have. Time to make like a tree, and leaf. 🍃 🍂 🌿 🌳

trackdemon5512

I really don't understand the grief with the craft tree. Let's be honest in that 95% of the time you will have four specific abilities slotted.

These are

Homemaker
Treasure Hunter
Master Gatherer
Plentiful Harvest

Lets look at the others:

Gifted Rider - Most useful in Cyrodiil where players aren't farming. Also useful in overworld but not so much seeing as Major Gallop is a passive assault ability. Replace Homemaker with it and then slot it back later if needed but c'mon you were fast enough without it before this patch.

Shadowstrike - this is a glorified version of the same exact skill in the Dark Brotherhood skill line which only has a 15 percent chance. It's really unnecessary and unless you're specifically looting and killing you don't need it on always (or ever really).

Infamous - Are you going to fence a bunch of items? Ok slot this. Are you done fencing? Take it off. You lost maybe 3 seconds max for some more gold. Fair trade off.

Meticulous Disassembly - Are you going to refine a bunch of items? Ok slot this. Are you done refining? Take it off. You lost maybe 3 seconds max for some more mats. Fair trade off.

Reel Technique/Angler's Instinct - Are you fishing? Slot em. Not like you're looting nodes or treasure chests. Seriously you're standing in one place, pressing a button, and watching Netflix at the same time. It's an intensive time sink in the first place.

War Mount - Are you in Cyrodiil? Are you somehow a high CP without investing anything into the stamina from stables? Slot it. You don't need Homemaker in Cyrodiil.

Liquid Efficiency - Using potions and poisons eh? Guess you must be in battle a lot. If that's the case what do you need Plentiful Harvest, Master Gatherer, or Homemaker for?



These are all fine compromises, esp if it takes stress off the system. The green tree is fine and I can't wait to see it expanded in more detail with future updates.

CyberOnEso

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

I really don't understand the grief with the craft tree. Let's be honest in that 95% of the time you will have four specific abilities slotted.

These are

Homemaker
Treasure Hunter
Master Gatherer
Plentiful Harvest

Lets look at the others:

Gifted Rider - Most useful in Cyrodiil where players aren't farming. Also useful in overworld but not so much seeing as Major Gallop is a passive assault ability. Replace Homemaker with it and then slot it back later if needed but c'mon you were fast enough without it before this patch.

Shadowstrike - this is a glorified version of the same exact skill in the Dark Brotherhood skill line which only has a 15 percent chance. It's really unnecessary and unless you're specifically looting and killing you don't need it on always (or ever really).

Infamous - Are you going to fence a bunch of items? Ok slot this. Are you done fencing? Take it off. You lost maybe 3 seconds max for some more gold. Fair trade off.

Meticulous Disassembly - Are you going to refine a bunch of items? Ok slot this. Are you done refining? Take it off. You lost maybe 3 seconds max for some more mats. Fair trade off.

Reel Technique/Angler's Instinct - Are you fishing? Slot em. Not like you're looting nodes or treasure chests. Seriously you're standing in one place, pressing a button, and watching Netflix at the same time. It's an intensive time sink in the first place.

War Mount - Are you in Cyrodiil? Are you somehow a high CP without investing anything into the stamina from stables? Slot it. You don't need Homemaker in Cyrodiil.

Liquid Efficiency - Using potions and poisons eh? Guess you must be in battle a lot. If that's the case what do you need Plentiful Harvest, Master Gatherer, or Homemaker for?



These are all fine compromises, esp if it takes stress off the system. The green tree is fine and I can't wait to see it expanded in more detail with future updates.

Sadly this list doesn't include Steed's Blessing which I personally do not want to live without.

Also, whilst I am not saying this is exactly how it works. I have been told that Meticulous Dissaembly affects deconstructing, which I personally do multiple times per day.

deleted221106-002999

The only proposed change I'd be interested in is seeing them all as always enabled passives with zero micromanagement.

If you have the cp to have them all (I don't) then you should be able to use them all (green tree, quality of life - I dont take so much issue with the other trees).

Bradyfjord

I often open chests and gather mats while questing/skysharding/etc. The new green champion point tree is not as intuitive as I had hoped. I can live with it, but I am not happy with it. I am sure I will make my peace with it, because the game is otherwise quite good.

peacenote

I just want to say I am a big fan of the puns.

Czeri

Souterain wrote: »

The only proposed change I'd be interested in is seeing them all as always enabled passives with zero micromanagement.

If you have the cp to have them all (I don't) then you should be able to use them all (green tree, quality of life - I dont take so much issue with the other trees).

This. Sure we each slot the 4 that are most useful most often for our particular activities, and yes, most of the skills weren't even created prior to CP2, so it's not like we miss them specifically, but it's just infuriating that something you've earned the points for and which doesn't give you any combat advantage, needs to be micro-managed. It's a chore, regardless of how little time/effort it might take.

spartaxoxo

Czeri wrote: »

Souterain wrote: »

The only proposed change I'd be interested in is seeing them all as always enabled passives with zero micromanagement.

If you have the cp to have them all (I don't) then you should be able to use them all (green tree, quality of life - I dont take so much issue with the other trees).

This. Sure we each slot the 4 that are most useful most often for our particular activities, and yes, most of the skills weren't even created prior to CP2, so it's not like we miss them specifically, but it's just infuriating that something you've earned the points for and which doesn't give you any combat advantage, needs to be micro-managed. It's a chore, regardless of how little time/effort it might take.

This. It feels like you're missing out on stuff you've earned forever or that you'll be micromanagement a lot

Olauron

spartaxoxo wrote: »

First off is that all active slots that increase odds, resource loot speed, item values or flat chances are now passive.

This means the following active skills are now passive

Master Gatherer
Treasure Hunter
Plentiful Harvest
Reel Technique

Skills that buff your speed, give new abilites, or enhance the way we interact with loot in unique ways remain active

These are

Homemaker
Angler's Instinct

Really? Angler's Instinct is about increasing chances. Treasure Hunter is about interacting with loot. Homemaker is about increasing the odds.

Overall I disagree. Vertical progression (passives) in green tree should end on the same CP level as in blue and red trees. Any rework should decrease the false horizontal progression and increase meaningful horizontal progression.

trackdemon5512

CyberOnEso wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

I really don't understand the grief with the craft tree. Let's be honest in that 95% of the time you will have four specific abilities slotted.

These are

Homemaker
Treasure Hunter
Master Gatherer
Plentiful Harvest

Lets look at the others:

Gifted Rider - Most useful in Cyrodiil where players aren't farming. Also useful in overworld but not so much seeing as Major Gallop is a passive assault ability. Replace Homemaker with it and then slot it back later if needed but c'mon you were fast enough without it before this patch.

Shadowstrike - this is a glorified version of the same exact skill in the Dark Brotherhood skill line which only has a 15 percent chance. It's really unnecessary and unless you're specifically looting and killing you don't need it on always (or ever really).

Infamous - Are you going to fence a bunch of items? Ok slot this. Are you done fencing? Take it off. You lost maybe 3 seconds max for some more gold. Fair trade off.

Meticulous Disassembly - Are you going to refine a bunch of items? Ok slot this. Are you done refining? Take it off. You lost maybe 3 seconds max for some more mats. Fair trade off.

Reel Technique/Angler's Instinct - Are you fishing? Slot em. Not like you're looting nodes or treasure chests. Seriously you're standing in one place, pressing a button, and watching Netflix at the same time. It's an intensive time sink in the first place.

War Mount - Are you in Cyrodiil? Are you somehow a high CP without investing anything into the stamina from stables? Slot it. You don't need Homemaker in Cyrodiil.

Liquid Efficiency - Using potions and poisons eh? Guess you must be in battle a lot. If that's the case what do you need Plentiful Harvest, Master Gatherer, or Homemaker for?



These are all fine compromises, esp if it takes stress off the system. The green tree is fine and I can't wait to see it expanded in more detail with future updates.

Sadly this list doesn't include Steed's Blessing which I personally do not want to live without.

Also, whilst I am not saying this is exactly how it works. I have been told that Meticulous Dissaembly affects deconstructing, which I personally do multiple times per day.

All of the good bonuses, including Steed’s Blessing and Meticulous Disassembly, are brand new to the game. Great boons but they’re on top of what we had from the previous system.

Also as for meticulous I’ll just start banking all of my items. Once the bank is full it’s decon time all at once.

joseayalac

I couldn't agree more with OP!

Luke_Flamesword

Design of craft tree is stupid in current form. They want to have more choices in higher levels and this is great for combat, but pointless for crafting tree. Your choices in crafting tree in practice is all-the-time swapping between every different in-game acitivity and this is what we should do? Really ZOS? This is my reward? Constant micromagament and checking which passsives I have active?

I see simple solution - craft tree doesn't need to be so complex as rest of trees. If they don't want more slots (oh, give me 6 at least with current system) they should just merge some passives into one. Overall needed points can be the same, they can just add more steps in merged passives.

Master Gatherer and Plentifull Harvest
Treasure Hunter and Homemaker
Reel Technique and Angler's Instincts
Rationer and Liquid Efficiency
War Mount and Gifted Rider
and some mixing for thieving ones.

With merging crucial passives we can avoid 90% of reslotting and have feeling that we at least using all the most basic ones. There are still be some choices, but this is won't be so annoying as it is now.

spartaxoxo

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

First off is that all active slots that increase odds, resource loot speed, item values or flat chances are now passive.

This means the following active skills are now passive

Master Gatherer
Treasure Hunter
Plentiful Harvest
Reel Technique

Skills that buff your speed, give new abilites, or enhance the way we interact with loot in unique ways remain active

These are

Homemaker
Angler's Instinct

Really? Angler's Instinct is about increasing chances. Treasure Hunter is about interacting with loot. Homemaker is about increasing the odds.

Overall I disagree. Vertical progression (passives) in green tree should end on the same CP level as in blue and red trees. Any rework should decrease the false horizontal progression and increase meaningful horizontal progression.

They increase odds but in a unique way. Angler's is like fishing with an extra person and homemaker gives you an additional plan rather than just a flat chance. I can see maybe the argument for Angler's but homemaker works very different to other increases, it's not a flat increase.

Homemaker is something unique and different and the first time it worked on something nice for me I got so excited I ran to show my guild the cool new passive. That to me is worth a slot. Slots shouldn't only be boring stuff imo, but it should be stuff that means we don't need to micromanage everything.

Olauron

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They increase odds but in a unique way. Angler's is like fishing with an extra person and homemaker gives you an additional plan rather than just a flat chance. I can see maybe the argument for Angler's but homemaker works very different to other increases, it's not a flat increase.

Homemaker is something unique and different and the first time it worked on something nice for me I got so excited I ran to show my guild the cool new passive. That to me is worth a slot. Slots shouldn't only be boring stuff imo, but it should be stuff that means we don't need to micromanage everything.

Homemaker is the same as Plentiful harvest, it gives you a chance to get 2nd draw of the loot. The only difference is you always have the 1st draw with 100% chance for resources, but it is less than 100% chance to get 1st furnishing plan. This, however, is the difference not of the CP star, this is the difference of base action. Both stars work the same.

Micromanagement is not good, but macromanagement should remain. There should be a choice whatever activity you do. Do you farming resources? You choose between speed of movement, speed of harvesting and quality of harvesting. Do you stealing? You choose between stealth quality, loot quality and chance to get away from guards. This is not easy to implement for everything (and that is the reason we have what we have), but for Meticulous Disassembly, for example, it is possible to make different stars for different type of loot: for mats. for tempers, for trait stones, for style stones. Then a player would make a choice to get something he needs, but not everything.

Slottable stars will not be boring and the choice will not be boring, if to a question “Honey or condensed milk with your bread?” a player can answer only "Honey" or only "Condensed milk", not "Both, but don’t bother about the War Mount, please".

spartaxoxo

Olauron wrote: »

Micromanagement is not good, but macromanagement should remain. There should be a choice whatever activity you do.

No. There shouldn't be a choice for every activity we do. Some things should just work or you end up spending more time in menus than you do actually playing, which is neither good nor healthy.

This game is about story, adventure, and exploration. In fact, one of the largest parts of the Elder Scrolls franchise has always been it's fantastic approach to exploration. Things just work and the choices come from what you DO with the things you explored, not from micromanaging every little thing.

It's just garbage design and the game does NOT have to make everything frustrating.

Having the passives that don't feel like active powers become things that require activation doesn't enhance immersion nor exploration, it breaks them.

twev

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

CyberOnEso wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

I really don't understand the grief with the craft tree. Let's be honest in that 95% of the time you will have four specific abilities slotted.

These are

Homemaker
Treasure Hunter
Master Gatherer
Plentiful Harvest

Lets look at the others:

Gifted Rider - Most useful in Cyrodiil where players aren't farming. Also useful in overworld but not so much seeing as Major Gallop is a passive assault ability. Replace Homemaker with it and then slot it back later if needed but c'mon you were fast enough without it before this patch.

Shadowstrike - this is a glorified version of the same exact skill in the Dark Brotherhood skill line which only has a 15 percent chance. It's really unnecessary and unless you're specifically looting and killing you don't need it on always (or ever really).

Infamous - Are you going to fence a bunch of items? Ok slot this. Are you done fencing? Take it off. You lost maybe 3 seconds max for some more gold. Fair trade off.

Meticulous Disassembly - Are you going to refine a bunch of items? Ok slot this. Are you done refining? Take it off. You lost maybe 3 seconds max for some more mats. Fair trade off.

Reel Technique/Angler's Instinct - Are you fishing? Slot em. Not like you're looting nodes or treasure chests. Seriously you're standing in one place, pressing a button, and watching Netflix at the same time. It's an intensive time sink in the first place.

War Mount - Are you in Cyrodiil? Are you somehow a high CP without investing anything into the stamina from stables? Slot it. You don't need Homemaker in Cyrodiil.

Liquid Efficiency - Using potions and poisons eh? Guess you must be in battle a lot. If that's the case what do you need Plentiful Harvest, Master Gatherer, or Homemaker for?



These are all fine compromises, esp if it takes stress off the system. The green tree is fine and I can't wait to see it expanded in more detail with future updates.

Sadly this list doesn't include Steed's Blessing which I personally do not want to live without.

Also, whilst I am not saying this is exactly how it works. I have been told that Meticulous Dissaembly affects deconstructing, which I personally do multiple times per day.

All of the good bonuses, including Steed’s Blessing and Meticulous Disassembly, are brand new to the game. Great boons but they’re on top of what we had from the previous system.

Also as for meticulous I’ll just start banking all of my items. Once the bank is full it’s decon time all at once.

The "brand new to the game" boons are ones you're going to be competing against if you dont have them slotted, too.

The "decon time all at once" issue is one that will hit players without a sub a lot harder/more often than subbed player.

Olauron

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Micromanagement is not good, but macromanagement should remain. There should be a choice whatever activity you do.

No. There shouldn't be a choice for every activity we do. Some things should just work or you end up spending more time in menus than you do actually playing, which is neither good nor healthy.

This game is about story, adventure, and exploration. In fact, one of the largest parts of the Elder Scrolls franchise has always been it's fantastic approach to exploration. Things just work and the choices come from what you DO with the things you explored, not from micromanaging every little thing.

It's just garbage design and the game does NOT have to make everything frustrating.

Having the passives that don't feel like active powers become things that require activation doesn't enhance immersion nor exploration, it breaks them.

Then there should be no choice between healing and damaging stars, between direct damage and aoe stars, between block and break free stars. But there is this choice, this is the soul of horizontal progression, and the same horizontal progression should be for all non-combat activities. The only question is how to make changing the green slottables with same frequency as blue and red slottables.

spartaxoxo

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Micromanagement is not good, but macromanagement should remain. There should be a choice whatever activity you do.

No. There shouldn't be a choice for every activity we do. Some things should just work or you end up spending more time in menus than you do actually playing, which is neither good nor healthy.

This game is about story, adventure, and exploration. In fact, one of the largest parts of the Elder Scrolls franchise has always been it's fantastic approach to exploration. Things just work and the choices come from what you DO with the things you explored, not from micromanaging every little thing.

It's just garbage design and the game does NOT have to make everything frustrating.

Having the passives that don't feel like active powers become things that require activation doesn't enhance immersion nor exploration, it breaks them.

Then there should be no choice between healing and damaging stars, between direct damage and aoe stars, between block and break free stars. But there is this choice, this is the soul of horizontal progression, and the same horizontal progression should be for all non-combat activities. The only question is how to make changing the green slottables with same frequency as blue and red slottables.

There is a massive gulf, as big as the Illiad Bay, between "no choices at all" and "the game should not make you micromanage".

The answer is very easy as to how you make the swapping as infrequent as the other trees, you get rid of all the micromanagement passives, like I suggested.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to gather speed or percent chance have no business being actives.

Olauron

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Micromanagement is not good, but macromanagement should remain. There should be a choice whatever activity you do.

No. There shouldn't be a choice for every activity we do. Some things should just work or you end up spending more time in menus than you do actually playing, which is neither good nor healthy.

This game is about story, adventure, and exploration. In fact, one of the largest parts of the Elder Scrolls franchise has always been it's fantastic approach to exploration. Things just work and the choices come from what you DO with the things you explored, not from micromanaging every little thing.

It's just garbage design and the game does NOT have to make everything frustrating.

Having the passives that don't feel like active powers become things that require activation doesn't enhance immersion nor exploration, it breaks them.

Then there should be no choice between healing and damaging stars, between direct damage and aoe stars, between block and break free stars. But there is this choice, this is the soul of horizontal progression, and the same horizontal progression should be for all non-combat activities. The only question is how to make changing the green slottables with same frequency as blue and red slottables.

There is a massive gulf, as big as the Illiad Bay between "no choices at all" and "the game should not make you micromanage".

The answer is very easy as to how you make the swapping as infrequent as the other trees, you get rid of all the micromanagement passives, like I suggested.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to gather speed or percent chance have no business being actives.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to movement speed or mount speed have no business being actives.
Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to magicka or spell damage have no business being actives.
There is zero difference with your statement.

The point is if you make all the "boring" (for you) and with too much micromanagement stuff into passives, you will make vertical progression extremely high and give high CP players too much at the same time.

I can say the much easier way to remove micromanagement is to increase the cooldown to something like 20 or 24 hours (like horse feeding or daily activities). There, you don't need to micromanage every activity anymore. The CP bonus is not that high that you can't do the activity without it, so you will have to play with the choice you have made (macromanagement) for the next 20 or 24 hours.

BlueRaven

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Micromanagement is not good, but macromanagement should remain. There should be a choice whatever activity you do.

No. There shouldn't be a choice for every activity we do. Some things should just work or you end up spending more time in menus than you do actually playing, which is neither good nor healthy.

This game is about story, adventure, and exploration. In fact, one of the largest parts of the Elder Scrolls franchise has always been it's fantastic approach to exploration. Things just work and the choices come from what you DO with the things you explored, not from micromanaging every little thing.

It's just garbage design and the game does NOT have to make everything frustrating.

Having the passives that don't feel like active powers become things that require activation doesn't enhance immersion nor exploration, it breaks them.

Then there should be no choice between healing and damaging stars, between direct damage and aoe stars, between block and break free stars. But there is this choice, this is the soul of horizontal progression, and the same horizontal progression should be for all non-combat activities. The only question is how to make changing the green slottables with same frequency as blue and red slottables.

There is a massive gulf, as big as the Illiad Bay between "no choices at all" and "the game should not make you micromanage".

The answer is very easy as to how you make the swapping as infrequent as the other trees, you get rid of all the micromanagement passives, like I suggested.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to gather speed or percent chance have no business being actives.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to movement speed or mount speed have no business being actives.
Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to magicka or spell damage have no business being actives.
There is zero difference with your statement.

The point is if you make all the "boring" (for you) and with too much micromanagement stuff into passives, you will make vertical progression extremely high and give high CP players too much at the same time.

I can say the much easier way to remove micromanagement is to increase the cooldown to something like 20 or 24 hours (like horse feeding or daily activities). There, you don't need to micromanage every activity anymore. The CP bonus is not that high that you can't do the activity without it, so you will have to play with the choice you have made (macromanagement) for the next 20 or 24 hours.

I don’t want to be stuck with a passive I may not actually use that day. There is a passive already on a one day cool down, why do I need it slotted if I used it? Or if I am not stealing anything that day?

“Sorry trial team, I just slotted my passives to decon some items, guess I can’t heal for you today as I cannot change my passives again.”

There are too many slot passives that are for specific use only. Why do I need to have reduced repair costs turned on if I am not repairing? Why do I need a passive for fishing or stealing if I am in a trial?

The slot passives should be the ones that are great for long term use. Like increasing the chance to get furniture plans, motifs, or antiquity leads. Or how about having armor degrade slower if a passive is slotted? Or a way to detect heavy sacks, if the right passive is slotted?

If I am not repairing, I don’t need a decrease in repair costs. If I am not selling stolen loot, I don’t need a passive slotted that increases the gold I get for them. It’s just pointless micro management.

[Edit to remove bait]

spartaxoxo

Olauron wrote: »

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to movement speed or mount speed have no business being actives.
Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to magicka or spell damage have no business being actives.
There is zero difference with your statement.

Untrue. One is just materials, which are cheaply and easily available to all. The other is POWER which has a large impact on people's abilities to form groups. The greater difference in power between low and high cp, the less desirable the low cp player is to group up with. The greater the difference in mats between low and high players, the more likely the higher cp player is willing to share their wealth with the lower one whether through affordable trade or gifts. Because they'll have so many they'll be devalued.

Just because they share surface similarities does not make them equivalent.

Olauron wrote: »

The point is if you make all the "boring" (for you) and with too much micromanagement stuff into passives, you will make vertical progression extremely high and give high CP players too much at the same time.

How is vertical progression extremely high because at the end of this month I'll have 11k mats instead of 13k mats depending on my passive? How is vertical progression extremely high if one person has to take an extra .5 seconds to harvest a node and the other doesn't? These are quality of life features, not power.

Olauron wrote: »

I can say the much easier way to remove micromanagement is to increase the cooldown to something like 20 or 24 hours (like horse feeding or daily activities). There, you don't need to micromanage every activity anymore. The CP bonus is not that high that you can't do the activity without it, so you will have to play with the choice you have made (macromanagement) for the next 20 or 24 hours.

It's much easier to lop off an orc's head than to cure their vampirism, but it doesn't make it a good decision.

spartaxoxo

BlueRaven wrote: »

The slot passives should be the ones that are great for long term use.

Precisely! Which is why I put the burden on ones that were unique or felt like additonal skills. Even power crafters tend to specialize. Be it the anglers who bring in tons of fish for all our exp pots, the homemakers doing the Artaeum Shuffle down in Blackreach, or the shadowy thief "breaking immersion" at the Skywatch party.

So long term, you'd likely slot the active items that make your crafting speciality more unique and interesting. The stuff that makes you better at it. And leave it at that. And if you decide to do another activity, you'll slot those.

The percent increase and harvesting speed ones aren't unique feeling skills that enhance your crafty gameplay, they are flat bonuses and QOL improvements that you'd want to have on at all times so that when you pass by things while questing or whatever, you don't feel like you're missing out. That's what turns them into chores

Olauron

BlueRaven wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Micromanagement is not good, but macromanagement should remain. There should be a choice whatever activity you do.

No. There shouldn't be a choice for every activity we do. Some things should just work or you end up spending more time in menus than you do actually playing, which is neither good nor healthy.

This game is about story, adventure, and exploration. In fact, one of the largest parts of the Elder Scrolls franchise has always been it's fantastic approach to exploration. Things just work and the choices come from what you DO with the things you explored, not from micromanaging every little thing.

It's just garbage design and the game does NOT have to make everything frustrating.

Having the passives that don't feel like active powers become things that require activation doesn't enhance immersion nor exploration, it breaks them.

Then there should be no choice between healing and damaging stars, between direct damage and aoe stars, between block and break free stars. But there is this choice, this is the soul of horizontal progression, and the same horizontal progression should be for all non-combat activities. The only question is how to make changing the green slottables with same frequency as blue and red slottables.

There is a massive gulf, as big as the Illiad Bay between "no choices at all" and "the game should not make you micromanage".

The answer is very easy as to how you make the swapping as infrequent as the other trees, you get rid of all the micromanagement passives, like I suggested.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to gather speed or percent chance have no business being actives.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to movement speed or mount speed have no business being actives.
Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to magicka or spell damage have no business being actives.
There is zero difference with your statement.

The point is if you make all the "boring" (for you) and with too much micromanagement stuff into passives, you will make vertical progression extremely high and give high CP players too much at the same time.

I can say the much easier way to remove micromanagement is to increase the cooldown to something like 20 or 24 hours (like horse feeding or daily activities). There, you don't need to micromanage every activity anymore. The CP bonus is not that high that you can't do the activity without it, so you will have to play with the choice you have made (macromanagement) for the next 20 or 24 hours.

This is the worst idea I have heard so far. I am not sure if are just exaggerating to make a point or not, but the idea of such a long cool down is just awful.

I don’t want to be stuck with a passive I may not actually use that day. There is a passive already on a one day cool down, why do I need it slotted if I used it? Or if I am not stealing anything that day?

“Sorry trial team, I just slotted my passives to decon some items, guess I can’t heal for you today as I cannot change my passives again.”

There are too many slot passives that are for specific use only. Why do I need to have reduced repair costs turned on if I am not repairing? Why do I need a passive for fishing or stealing if I am in a trial?

The slot passives should be the ones that are great for long term use. Like increasing the chance to get furniture plans, motifs, or antiquity leads. Or how about having armor degrade slower if a passive is slotted? Or a way to detect heavy sacks, if the right passive is slotted?

If I am not repairing, I don’t need a decrease in repair costs. If I am not selling stolen loot, I don’t need a passive slotted that increases the gold I get for them. It’s just pointless micro management.

The point is
1) horizontal progression should be the same for every constellation;
2) the choice of slottable should matter.

Repair cost reduce as a slottable doesn't work, because it is false horizontal progression. It is vertical progression, because player can simply change it for the activity. Making it passive will change nothing. Yes, players will get their whole 100 gold without micromanaging a slot, but the main problem - that it is part of vertical progression instead of horizontal progression - will remain.

Current slottables (and passives) don't work as part of the horizontal progression, because they are not conflicting, and they are not conflicting, because there are activities completely distinct. Obviously, you don't care about movement, when you stand near merchant of near crafting station. The only good way to change slottables is to make them conflicting. There is choice between conflicting things, there is no choice between not conflicting things. You can make them conflicting by a) changing the effects, making those effects more applicable to different activities; b) splitting constellation into different constellations (with decreasing an individual number of slots, of course). I doubt that ZOS will make such a huge change, to be honest.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to movement speed or mount speed have no business being actives.
Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to magicka or spell damage have no business being actives.
There is zero difference with your statement.

Untrue. One is just materials, which are cheaply and easily available to all. The other is POWER which has a large impact on people's abilities to form groups. The greater difference in power between low and high cp, the less desirable the low cp player is to group up with. The greater the difference in mats between low and high players, the more likely the higher cp player is willing to share their wealth with the lower one whether through affordable trade or gifts.

Just because they share surface similarities does not make them equivalent.

Olauron wrote: »

The point is if you make all the "boring" (for you) and with too much micromanagement stuff into passives, you will make vertical progression extremely high and give high CP players too much at the same time.

How is vertical progression extremely high because at the end of this month I'll have 11k mats instead of 13k mats depending on my passive? How is vertical progression extremely high if one person has to take an extra .5 seconds to harvest a node and the other doesn't? These are quality of life features, not power..

You are wrong thinking of it as QoL features. Those are effectiveness features, the same as for combat. You are competing with other players for resources (directly, for resource nodes, and indirectly by selling or not buying from guild stores mats, tempers, stones). You are competing with other players for chests and loot (directly, for opening a chest, and indirectly by selling or not buying contents of the chest). You are competing with other players for gold you get from stealing, for gold or items themselves when searching furnishing plans, fish/roe (the better your gold per time effectiveness, the more economic power you have).

spartaxoxo

Olauron wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Micromanagement is not good, but macromanagement should remain. There should be a choice whatever activity you do.

No. There shouldn't be a choice for every activity we do. Some things should just work or you end up spending more time in menus than you do actually playing, which is neither good nor healthy.

This game is about story, adventure, and exploration. In fact, one of the largest parts of the Elder Scrolls franchise has always been it's fantastic approach to exploration. Things just work and the choices come from what you DO with the things you explored, not from micromanaging every little thing.

It's just garbage design and the game does NOT have to make everything frustrating.

Having the passives that don't feel like active powers become things that require activation doesn't enhance immersion nor exploration, it breaks them.

Then there should be no choice between healing and damaging stars, between direct damage and aoe stars, between block and break free stars. But there is this choice, this is the soul of horizontal progression, and the same horizontal progression should be for all non-combat activities. The only question is how to make changing the green slottables with same frequency as blue and red slottables.

There is a massive gulf, as big as the Illiad Bay between "no choices at all" and "the game should not make you micromanage".

The answer is very easy as to how you make the swapping as infrequent as the other trees, you get rid of all the micromanagement passives, like I suggested.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to gather speed or percent chance have no business being actives.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to movement speed or mount speed have no business being actives.
Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to magicka or spell damage have no business being actives.
There is zero difference with your statement.

The point is if you make all the "boring" (for you) and with too much micromanagement stuff into passives, you will make vertical progression extremely high and give high CP players too much at the same time.

I can say the much easier way to remove micromanagement is to increase the cooldown to something like 20 or 24 hours (like horse feeding or daily activities). There, you don't need to micromanage every activity anymore. The CP bonus is not that high that you can't do the activity without it, so you will have to play with the choice you have made (macromanagement) for the next 20 or 24 hours.

This is the worst idea I have heard so far. I am not sure if are just exaggerating to make a point or not, but the idea of such a long cool down is just awful.

I don’t want to be stuck with a passive I may not actually use that day. There is a passive already on a one day cool down, why do I need it slotted if I used it? Or if I am not stealing anything that day?

“Sorry trial team, I just slotted my passives to decon some items, guess I can’t heal for you today as I cannot change my passives again.”

There are too many slot passives that are for specific use only. Why do I need to have reduced repair costs turned on if I am not repairing? Why do I need a passive for fishing or stealing if I am in a trial?

The slot passives should be the ones that are great for long term use. Like increasing the chance to get furniture plans, motifs, or antiquity leads. Or how about having armor degrade slower if a passive is slotted? Or a way to detect heavy sacks, if the right passive is slotted?

If I am not repairing, I don’t need a decrease in repair costs. If I am not selling stolen loot, I don’t need a passive slotted that increases the gold I get for them. It’s just pointless micro management.

The point is
1) horizontal progression should be the same for every constellation;
2) the choice of slottable should matter.

Repair cost reduce as a slottable doesn't work, because it is false horizontal progression. It is vertical progression, because player can simply change it for the activity. Making it passive will change nothing. Yes, players will get their whole 100 gold without micromanaging a slot, but the main problem - that it is part of vertical progression instead of horizontal progression - will remain.

Current slottables (and passives) don't work as part of the horizontal progression, because they are not conflicting, and they are not conflicting, because there are activities completely distinct. Obviously, you don't care about movement, when you stand near merchant of near crafting station. The only good way to change slottables is to make them conflicting. There is choice between conflicting things, there is no choice between not conflicting things. You can make them conflicting by a) changing the effects, making those effects more applicable to different activities; b) splitting constellation into different constellations (with decreasing an individual number of slots, of course). I doubt that ZOS will make such a huge change, to be honest.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to movement speed or mount speed have no business being actives.
Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to magicka or spell damage have no business being actives.
There is zero difference with your statement.

Untrue. One is just materials, which are cheaply and easily available to all. The other is POWER which has a large impact on people's abilities to form groups. The greater difference in power between low and high cp, the less desirable the low cp player is to group up with. The greater the difference in mats between low and high players, the more likely the higher cp player is willing to share their wealth with the lower one whether through affordable trade or gifts.

Just because they share surface similarities does not make them equivalent.

Olauron wrote: »

The point is if you make all the "boring" (for you) and with too much micromanagement stuff into passives, you will make vertical progression extremely high and give high CP players too much at the same time.

How is vertical progression extremely high because at the end of this month I'll have 11k mats instead of 13k mats depending on my passive? How is vertical progression extremely high if one person has to take an extra .5 seconds to harvest a node and the other doesn't? These are quality of life features, not power..

You are wrong thinking of it as QoL features. Those are effectiveness features, the same as for combat.

No. Not really. Even combat bonuses can have quality of life features vs direct skills. Which is why even in our combat skills that directly effect our ability to compete with each other have many passive skills and why developers will term some things as quality of life changes. This idea that every single action we take in game to do something besides just standing there looking pretty is part of some competition and therefore must all be made as difficult as possible is ridiculous.

Nobody who is actually trying to compete is ever gonna do these things without those passives. The competition in the market are using them. They are the ones slotting them constantly. They are the ones micromanaging things. And that shouldn't ever be the way that competition is done.

It shouldn't be done through a menu but through active gameplay. Who is grinding vs who is not. Not first I slotted this passive to pick up this flower and then I went back into my menu to slot this other passive while I fished out this spot, and and then I slotted one for that treasure chest!

They just hand you mats when you login for goodness sake! What you're describing is not how people compete. Which is why these are QOL features.

They compete by investing time into active gameplay. They pay dues in traders, keep track of prices, actively spend time grinding instead of only doing fun things, activate a resource node first, etc. That's how they compete. Not a miniscule amount of time spent grabbing a node once they are already harvesting on the way to some quest.

Olauron

spartaxoxo wrote: »

activate a resource node first, etc. That's how they compete.

Yes, that is exactly how they compete directly. But to activate the node first you need a) maximum speed to get to this node; b) minimum time to spend on picking previous node; c) maximum loot (including chance to loot) in this node. And here is where the choice is: you can't have all. Here is where horizontal progression works. That's why those stars should never be passive. You must choose what do you need more: quantity of contents, quality of contents, speed getting from one contents to another, speed taking these contents to faster be at the next contents.
And the same applies to chests, etc.

BlueRaven

Olauron wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Micromanagement is not good, but macromanagement should remain. There should be a choice whatever activity you do.

No. There shouldn't be a choice for every activity we do. Some things should just work or you end up spending more time in menus than you do actually playing, which is neither good nor healthy.

This game is about story, adventure, and exploration. In fact, one of the largest parts of the Elder Scrolls franchise has always been it's fantastic approach to exploration. Things just work and the choices come from what you DO with the things you explored, not from micromanaging every little thing.

It's just garbage design and the game does NOT have to make everything frustrating.

Having the passives that don't feel like active powers become things that require activation doesn't enhance immersion nor exploration, it breaks them.

Then there should be no choice between healing and damaging stars, between direct damage and aoe stars, between block and break free stars. But there is this choice, this is the soul of horizontal progression, and the same horizontal progression should be for all non-combat activities. The only question is how to make changing the green slottables with same frequency as blue and red slottables.

There is a massive gulf, as big as the Illiad Bay between "no choices at all" and "the game should not make you micromanage".

The answer is very easy as to how you make the swapping as infrequent as the other trees, you get rid of all the micromanagement passives, like I suggested.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to gather speed or percent chance have no business being actives.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to movement speed or mount speed have no business being actives.
Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to magicka or spell damage have no business being actives.
There is zero difference with your statement.

The point is if you make all the "boring" (for you) and with too much micromanagement stuff into passives, you will make vertical progression extremely high and give high CP players too much at the same time.

I can say the much easier way to remove micromanagement is to increase the cooldown to something like 20 or 24 hours (like horse feeding or daily activities). There, you don't need to micromanage every activity anymore. The CP bonus is not that high that you can't do the activity without it, so you will have to play with the choice you have made (macromanagement) for the next 20 or 24 hours.

This is the worst idea I have heard so far. I am not sure if are just exaggerating to make a point or not, but the idea of such a long cool down is just awful.

I don’t want to be stuck with a passive I may not actually use that day. There is a passive already on a one day cool down, why do I need it slotted if I used it? Or if I am not stealing anything that day?

“Sorry trial team, I just slotted my passives to decon some items, guess I can’t heal for you today as I cannot change my passives again.”

There are too many slot passives that are for specific use only. Why do I need to have reduced repair costs turned on if I am not repairing? Why do I need a passive for fishing or stealing if I am in a trial?

The slot passives should be the ones that are great for long term use. Like increasing the chance to get furniture plans, motifs, or antiquity leads. Or how about having armor degrade slower if a passive is slotted? Or a way to detect heavy sacks, if the right passive is slotted?

If I am not repairing, I don’t need a decrease in repair costs. If I am not selling stolen loot, I don’t need a passive slotted that increases the gold I get for them. It’s just pointless micro management.

The point is
1) horizontal progression should be the same for every constellation;
2) the choice of slottable should matter.

Repair cost reduce as a slottable doesn't work, because it is false horizontal progression. It is vertical progression, because player can simply change it for the activity. Making it passive will change nothing. Yes, players will get their whole 100 gold without micromanaging a slot, but the main problem - that it is part of vertical progression instead of horizontal progression - will remain.

Current slottables (and passives) don't work as part of the horizontal progression, because they are not conflicting, and they are not conflicting, because there are activities completely distinct. Obviously, you don't care about movement, when you stand near merchant of near crafting station. The only good way to change slottables is to make them conflicting. There is choice between conflicting things, there is no choice between not conflicting things. You can make them conflicting by a) changing the effects, making those effects more applicable to different activities; b) splitting constellation into different constellations (with decreasing an individual number of slots, of course). I doubt that ZOS will make such a huge change, to be honest.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to movement speed or mount speed have no business being actives.
Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to magicka or spell damage have no business being actives.
There is zero difference with your statement.

Untrue. One is just materials, which are cheaply and easily available to all. The other is POWER which has a large impact on people's abilities to form groups. The greater difference in power between low and high cp, the less desirable the low cp player is to group up with. The greater the difference in mats between low and high players, the more likely the higher cp player is willing to share their wealth with the lower one whether through affordable trade or gifts.

Just because they share surface similarities does not make them equivalent.

Olauron wrote: »

The point is if you make all the "boring" (for you) and with too much micromanagement stuff into passives, you will make vertical progression extremely high and give high CP players too much at the same time.

How is vertical progression extremely high because at the end of this month I'll have 11k mats instead of 13k mats depending on my passive? How is vertical progression extremely high if one person has to take an extra .5 seconds to harvest a node and the other doesn't? These are quality of life features, not power..

You are wrong thinking of it as QoL features. Those are effectiveness features, the same as for combat. You are competing with other players for resources (directly, for resource nodes, and indirectly by selling or not buying from guild stores mats, tempers, stones). You are competing with other players for chests and loot (directly, for opening a chest, and indirectly by selling or not buying contents of the chest). You are competing with other players for gold you get from stealing, for gold or items themselves when searching furnishing plans, fish/roe (the better your gold per time effectiveness, the more economic power you have).

And my point is passive that is used for 5 seconds once per day should not be a slot passive.
I refine mats maybe once every two weeks. Why should this be a slot passive? So I can remember to turn it on and turn it off again? My character does not live nor adventure at a craft table. Having to load a specific set of passives just for being at one is bad game play.
I may fish once a month, did my character “Forget” how to fish well if I don’t turn the passive on? Is turning this passive on and off, “fun”?
I repair at a vendor once every three days, why do I need it on for the rest of that time? There are actions that are too specific or mundane of a task to deserve a slot.

Increasing the chance to find some item, is a good thing to have on all time. I can choose what to look for so THAT is a good passive to make as a slot choice. I am CHOOSING to look for more furniture patterns, at the expense of finding more motifs or heavy sacks, for example. That is a real player choice.
Decreasing the cost of repair, if I need to repair, and if I happen to be doing it at a vendor, is something I need under very specific circumstances. It does not need to be on all the time. This is a bad passive to make a slot choice. Because you are just hurting yourself when it’s on and not repairing, which on balance is fairly rare. All it becomes is repairing with extra steps. Not fun nor fluid gameplay.

spartaxoxo

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

activate a resource node first, etc. That's how they compete.

Yes, that is exactly how they compete directly. But to activate the node first you need a) maximum speed to get to this node; b) minimum time to spend on picking previous node; c) maximum loot (including chance to loot) in this node. And here is where the choice is: you can't have all. Here is where horizontal progression works. That's why those stars should never be passive. You must choose what do you need more: quantity of contents, quality of contents, speed getting from one contents to another, speed taking these contents to faster be at the next contents.
And the same applies to chests, etc.

This is ridiculous. You don't need the latter two at all. Max loot has no improvement at all on competing for someone for a node. Any serious farmer isn't gonna be picking mats in a spot with high competition for the same resource. It's a collosal waste of time. They are gonna have a somewhat secluded spot and passersby by are gonna get only a couple of nodes off them in a small amount of time, which isn't gonna change passives or not. And all serious farmers actively getting lots of loot will have those skills slotted. So them being active or not creates no change to real farming competition.

Also I don't want to hear your fake concern about vertical progression blocking newbies if this is how you're looking at it. We must all micromanage these things because some newbie might get the same amount of columbine as me off a single node!

The proposed suggestion includes movement speed as an active.

twev

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

activate a resource node first, etc. That's how they compete.

Yes, that is exactly how they compete directly. But to activate the node first you need a) maximum speed to get to this node; b) minimum time to spend on picking previous node; c) maximum loot (including chance to loot) in this node. And here is where the choice is: you can't have all. Here is where horizontal progression works. That's why those stars should never be passive. You must choose what do you need more: quantity of contents, quality of contents, speed getting from one contents to another, speed taking these contents to faster be at the next contents.
And the same applies to chests, etc.

What about the competition that has maximum speed slotted, and doesn't care about the extra return slots, so they clear the whole field ahead of players of nodes and treasure chests while harvesting it all except they leave all the worms and junk items in nodes and treasure chests behind for the slower players who slotted for maximum yield?

Thats just one small example of what is going to be the topic in forums over the next few weeks/months.
Leaving worms and junk in chests is already an issue, now it's going to be a bigger issue when thats all that the slower players find anywhere a fast player has stripped.

Lets not even bring up the topic of harvest bots doing it faster 24/7.

spartaxoxo

twev wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

activate a resource node first, etc. That's how they compete.

Yes, that is exactly how they compete directly. But to activate the node first you need a) maximum speed to get to this node; b) minimum time to spend on picking previous node; c) maximum loot (including chance to loot) in this node. And here is where the choice is: you can't have all. Here is where horizontal progression works. That's why those stars should never be passive. You must choose what do you need more: quantity of contents, quality of contents, speed getting from one contents to another, speed taking these contents to faster be at the next contents.
And the same applies to chests, etc.

What about the competition that has maximum speed slotted, and doesn't care about the extra return slots, so they clear the whole field ahead of players of nodes and treasure chests while harvesting it all except they leave all the worms and junk items in nodes and treasure chests behind for the slower players who slotted for maximum yield?

Thats just one small example of what is going to be the topic in forums over the next few weeks/months.
Leaving worms and junk in chests is already an issue, now it's going to be a bigger issue when thats all that the slower players find anywhere a fast player has stripped.

Lets not even bring up the topic of harvest bots doing it faster 24/7.

That's one reason why speed should be an active. There's an actual power and competition to movement speed. There's also a lot of reasons people may want to move at base speed, like when crossing narrow paths in some parts of the game or when roleplaying. Movement speed, ultimately, is one of the cleanest and easiest things to make an active skill. I think all the movement speed stuff should remain actives.

Olauron

BlueRaven wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Micromanagement is not good, but macromanagement should remain. There should be a choice whatever activity you do.

No. There shouldn't be a choice for every activity we do. Some things should just work or you end up spending more time in menus than you do actually playing, which is neither good nor healthy.

This game is about story, adventure, and exploration. In fact, one of the largest parts of the Elder Scrolls franchise has always been it's fantastic approach to exploration. Things just work and the choices come from what you DO with the things you explored, not from micromanaging every little thing.

It's just garbage design and the game does NOT have to make everything frustrating.

Having the passives that don't feel like active powers become things that require activation doesn't enhance immersion nor exploration, it breaks them.

Then there should be no choice between healing and damaging stars, between direct damage and aoe stars, between block and break free stars. But there is this choice, this is the soul of horizontal progression, and the same horizontal progression should be for all non-combat activities. The only question is how to make changing the green slottables with same frequency as blue and red slottables.

There is a massive gulf, as big as the Illiad Bay between "no choices at all" and "the game should not make you micromanage".

The answer is very easy as to how you make the swapping as infrequent as the other trees, you get rid of all the micromanagement passives, like I suggested.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to gather speed or percent chance have no business being actives.

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to movement speed or mount speed have no business being actives.
Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to magicka or spell damage have no business being actives.
There is zero difference with your statement.

The point is if you make all the "boring" (for you) and with too much micromanagement stuff into passives, you will make vertical progression extremely high and give high CP players too much at the same time.

I can say the much easier way to remove micromanagement is to increase the cooldown to something like 20 or 24 hours (like horse feeding or daily activities). There, you don't need to micromanage every activity anymore. The CP bonus is not that high that you can't do the activity without it, so you will have to play with the choice you have made (macromanagement) for the next 20 or 24 hours.

This is the worst idea I have heard so far. I am not sure if are just exaggerating to make a point or not, but the idea of such a long cool down is just awful.

I don’t want to be stuck with a passive I may not actually use that day. There is a passive already on a one day cool down, why do I need it slotted if I used it? Or if I am not stealing anything that day?

“Sorry trial team, I just slotted my passives to decon some items, guess I can’t heal for you today as I cannot change my passives again.”

There are too many slot passives that are for specific use only. Why do I need to have reduced repair costs turned on if I am not repairing? Why do I need a passive for fishing or stealing if I am in a trial?

The slot passives should be the ones that are great for long term use. Like increasing the chance to get furniture plans, motifs, or antiquity leads. Or how about having armor degrade slower if a passive is slotted? Or a way to detect heavy sacks, if the right passive is slotted?

If I am not repairing, I don’t need a decrease in repair costs. If I am not selling stolen loot, I don’t need a passive slotted that increases the gold I get for them. It’s just pointless micro management.

The point is
1) horizontal progression should be the same for every constellation;
2) the choice of slottable should matter.

Repair cost reduce as a slottable doesn't work, because it is false horizontal progression. It is vertical progression, because player can simply change it for the activity. Making it passive will change nothing. Yes, players will get their whole 100 gold without micromanaging a slot, but the main problem - that it is part of vertical progression instead of horizontal progression - will remain.

Current slottables (and passives) don't work as part of the horizontal progression, because they are not conflicting, and they are not conflicting, because there are activities completely distinct. Obviously, you don't care about movement, when you stand near merchant of near crafting station. The only good way to change slottables is to make them conflicting. There is choice between conflicting things, there is no choice between not conflicting things. You can make them conflicting by a) changing the effects, making those effects more applicable to different activities; b) splitting constellation into different constellations (with decreasing an individual number of slots, of course). I doubt that ZOS will make such a huge change, to be honest.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to movement speed or mount speed have no business being actives.
Stuff that is just a boring flat increase to magicka or spell damage have no business being actives.
There is zero difference with your statement.

Untrue. One is just materials, which are cheaply and easily available to all. The other is POWER which has a large impact on people's abilities to form groups. The greater difference in power between low and high cp, the less desirable the low cp player is to group up with. The greater the difference in mats between low and high players, the more likely the higher cp player is willing to share their wealth with the lower one whether through affordable trade or gifts.

Just because they share surface similarities does not make them equivalent.

Olauron wrote: »

The point is if you make all the "boring" (for you) and with too much micromanagement stuff into passives, you will make vertical progression extremely high and give high CP players too much at the same time.

How is vertical progression extremely high because at the end of this month I'll have 11k mats instead of 13k mats depending on my passive? How is vertical progression extremely high if one person has to take an extra .5 seconds to harvest a node and the other doesn't? These are quality of life features, not power..

You are wrong thinking of it as QoL features. Those are effectiveness features, the same as for combat. You are competing with other players for resources (directly, for resource nodes, and indirectly by selling or not buying from guild stores mats, tempers, stones). You are competing with other players for chests and loot (directly, for opening a chest, and indirectly by selling or not buying contents of the chest). You are competing with other players for gold you get from stealing, for gold or items themselves when searching furnishing plans, fish/roe (the better your gold per time effectiveness, the more economic power you have).

And my point is passive that is used for 5 seconds once per day should not be a slot passive.
I refine mats maybe once every two weeks. Why should this be a slot passive? So I can remember to turn it on and turn it off again? My character does not live nor adventure at a craft table. Having to load a specific set of passives just for being at one is bad game play.
I may fish once a month, did my character “Forget” how to fish well if I don’t turn the passive on? Is turning this passive on and off, “fun”?
I repair at a vendor once every three days, why do I need it on for the rest of that time? There are actions that are too specific or mundane of a task to deserve a slot.

Increasing the chance to find some item, is a good thing to have on all time. I can choose what to look for so THAT is a good passive to make as a slot choice. I am CHOOSING to look for more furniture patterns, at the expense of finding more motifs or heavy sacks, for example. That is a real player choice.
Decreasing the cost of repair, if I need to repair, and if I happen to be doing it at a vendor, is something I need under very specific circumstances. It does not need to be on all the time. This is a bad passive to make a slot choice. Because you are just hurting yourself when it’s on and not repairing, which on balance is fairly rare. All it becomes is repairing with extra steps. Not fun nor fluid gameplay.

Making a slottable into passive changes nothing. That was vertical progression disguised as horizontal, it remains vertical progression. Some players don't need to do some clicks in the UI - so what? On the conceptual level everything is the same.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

activate a resource node first, etc. That's how they compete.

Yes, that is exactly how they compete directly. But to activate the node first you need a) maximum speed to get to this node; b) minimum time to spend on picking previous node; c) maximum loot (including chance to loot) in this node. And here is where the choice is: you can't have all. Here is where horizontal progression works. That's why those stars should never be passive. You must choose what do you need more: quantity of contents, quality of contents, speed getting from one contents to another, speed taking these contents to faster be at the next contents.
And the same applies to chests, etc.

This is ridiculous. You don't need the latter two at all. Max loot has no improvement at all on competing for someone for a node. Any serious farmer isn't gonna be picking mats in a spot with high competition for the same resource. It's a collosal waste of time. They are gonna have a somewhat secluded spot and passersby by are gonna get only a couple of nodes off them in a small amount of time, which isn't gonna change passives or not. And all serious farmers actively getting lots of loot will have those skills slotted. So them being active or not creates no change to real farming competition.

Also I don't want to hear your fake concern about vertical progression blocking newbies if this is how you're looking at it. We must all micromanage these things because some newbie might beat me to one columbine or treasure chest!

The proposed suggestion includes movement speed as an active.

So you are trying to tell me that farmers don't use Plentiful harvest? They don't look for max loot, then they don't need this star. Well, this is news to me. Then, however, they can simply not slot it at all and clearly don't need it as a passive, since max loot is not what they are looking for.
More speed for movement and more speed for harvesting is more mats per hour. Are you seriously telling me that more mats per hour is not important for farmers?
More speed doesn't mean that you must "steal" a node from somebody else. It means that (exaggerating, but it will matter more the more time you are farming) you take two other nodes, while your competitor is still harvesting the first. Of course, the numbers are not that big, that you will take two, but every second matters.

And you may have missed it, but the point of horizontal progression is not to micromanage. It is to make a choice. Do you want to decrease your visibility radius to take resource nodes and chests without fighting or do you want to get double resources? You can't micromanage it, the same way you can't run to the node with max speed and then change the slot to get max resources from the node (because you will lose more time on changing than you will get from speed).

twev wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

activate a resource node first, etc. That's how they compete.

Yes, that is exactly how they compete directly. But to activate the node first you need a) maximum speed to get to this node; b) minimum time to spend on picking previous node; c) maximum loot (including chance to loot) in this node. And here is where the choice is: you can't have all. Here is where horizontal progression works. That's why those stars should never be passive. You must choose what do you need more: quantity of contents, quality of contents, speed getting from one contents to another, speed taking these contents to faster be at the next contents.
And the same applies to chests, etc.

What about the competition that has maximum speed slotted, and doesn't care about the extra return slots, so they clear the whole field ahead of players of nodes and treasure chests while harvesting it all except they leave all the worms and junk items in treasure chests behind for the slower players who slotted for maximum yield?

Thats just one small example of what is going to be the topic in forums over the next few weeks/months.

There are always trolls in any activity, but they are not the majority. But if there are so many trolls, then a farmer has to decide, what to do: equip the ring of wild hunt or respec slottables to be faster for a price of something else.

spartaxoxo

So you are trying to tell me that farmers don't use Plentiful harvest? They don't look for max loot, then they don't need this star. Well, this is news to me. Then, however, they can simply not slot it at all and clearly don't need it as a passive, since max loot is not what they are looking for.

No. I am not saying anything remotely of the sort. I am talking about these passives actually function in real gameplay and not just paper theorizing.

In the real world gameplay, you are going to focus on one farming activity, maybe 2 for a set amount of time. During that time you will NOT be doing others things in any appreciable amount so you don't need those passives. I will NOT be fishing when I am farming furnishing plans to sell, for a very easy example. The amount of you do those other actives when engaging in serious competition will be negligible.

So you know what you're going to do? You're going to slot all 3 related passives and a speed boost, find a spot with minimum competition and then get to work. You're not going to be making choices because why the hell would you? WTF do I need with a deconstruct passive when I'm fishing?

The serious competition has absolutely zero bearing on these passives because they will always have them slotted by default. Only a fool would farm housing mats for hours without homemaker.

So when do these actually function as slottables? And not just something you have on all the time. When you're NOT engaged in serious competition. When you see a node on your way to walking into cloudrest because you're tired of porting while walking in. When you're a new player who simply don't have it yet and can't do much to compete on the market yet. When you're listening to Razum-dar tell you about the Yahgra and spot that shiny chest behind him.

THAT is when these things being slottable become micromanagement. And those things have little connection to serious competition. Having them available when you're not being competitive...all it does is prevents micromanagement, resentment and constant UI engagement and instead makes way for actual gameplay.

Since no sane person would be without when seriously competiting (making them effectively passive during those activities) and people are gonna want to play around them when they aren't seriously competiting but happen upon something during normal gameplay, making them a passive is a QOL feature only.