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why there are a lot of dds instead of tanks?

  • DigiAngel
    DigiAngel
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    I JUST started playing a tank (low level, just for daily tc) and I honestly really like it. It appeals to my "DON'T WORRY, I'LL SAVE YOU!" mentality :)
  • BlueRaven
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    DigiAngel wrote: »
    I JUST started playing a tank (low level, just for daily tc) and I honestly really like it. It appeals to my "DON'T WORRY, I'LL SAVE YOU!" mentality :)

    When you are in a group it’s fine. The pain comes when trying to do things on your own.
  • BejaProphet
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    @avalon you are stretching my words to frame them as unreasonable. I said 10k. Not 10-20k as a tank. And I specified that I was talking about people really doing their role. But let’s make this even clearer. I’ll make a series of concise clear assertions, and you tell me precisely where my reasoning breaks down or becomes unreasonable or is elitist.

    Assertion 1:. The role of DD’s (damage dealers) by definition is to provide the bulk of the groups damage.

    Assertion 2: If a DD can not out damage a true tank and a true healer, they are not providing the bulk of the damage therefore are not fulfilling the defined task of a DD’s role. (By “true tank and healer” I mean players actually spec’d for that role. Not fakes who slotted a taunt.)

    Assertion 3: If somebody has not yet figured out how to do their role in beginner content, they ought not fill randomqueues for advanced content where a very basic degree of competency is assumed.


    Where did I go wrong or turn elitist?
  • MalEducado
    MalEducado
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    @avalon you are stretching my words to frame them as unreasonable. I said 10k. Not 10-20k as a tank. And I specified that I was talking about people really doing their role. But let’s make this even clearer. I’ll make a series of concise clear assertions, and you tell me precisely where my reasoning breaks down or becomes unreasonable or is elitist.

    Assertion 1:. The role of DD’s (damage dealers) by definition is to provide the bulk of the groups damage.

    Assertion 2: If a DD can not out damage a true tank and a true healer, they are not providing the bulk of the damage therefore are not fulfilling the defined task of a DD’s role. (By “true tank and healer” I mean players actually spec’d for that role. Not fakes who slotted a taunt.)

    Assertion 3: If somebody has not yet figured out how to do their role in beginner content, they ought not fill randomqueues for advanced content where a very basic degree of competency is assumed.


    Where did I go wrong or turn elitist?

    ppl want to queue as a dd with 10k of dmg, non stop dying , and not have to deal with th responsabilities of the tanks and healers... just ocupied a placed in the activity while the other ones do his job... you are not elitist, you only say de true, but the true not like everyone and they calling you elitist
  • MalEducado
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    Tanking is just not fun in ESO. You can be the best tank in ESO and you'll be at mercy of your DPS's ability to DPS.

    Tanking is a civil service and something that has to be done, not something many people choose to do because it's fun.... because it's not. Tank mains in ESO have to have the patience of a saint to stick with that role for so long.

    such a lovely words
  • AyaDark
    AyaDark
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    Scardan wrote: »
    AyaDark wrote: »
    Scardan wrote: »
    Tanks, what about damage of Power Bash? It deals actually more damage than brawler and I have used brawler as spammable and things died quick in overland. And in normal dungeons. Power Slam looks like good for questing and solo gameplay on paper. It looks very tasty, actually. Every block increases your damage, every use of this skill increases its damage up to 50%, looks like good spamable.

    Than try it ;)

    But i do not see it as some thing good.

    Brawler is really good ability.

    I will, but I would like to hear other people opinions about it.
    Also I am obsessed with the idea of two handed tank/DD, like in old school mmorpgs.

    Tank with 1 hand ans shield and 2 handed on other bar is good option.

    The same for duals and bow.

    It can solo a lot, it can do quests.

    It can do normal tanking.

    It can do this: (vHRC)
    https://youtu.be/gs-1yNqTgSU

    Or this: (SkyReach)
    https://youtu.be/Mj308aKAsU0

    Normal TANK how it should be !!!

    Not META garbage support build for tank.
    Edited by AyaDark on March 18, 2021 1:42PM
  • Avalon
    Avalon
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    @avalon you are stretching my words to frame them as unreasonable. I said 10k. Not 10-20k as a tank. And I specified that I was talking about people really doing their role. But let’s make this even clearer. I’ll make a series of concise clear assertions, and you tell me precisely where my reasoning breaks down or becomes unreasonable or is elitist.

    Assertion 1:. The role of DD’s (damage dealers) by definition is to provide the bulk of the groups damage.

    Assertion 2: If a DD can not out damage a true tank and a true healer, they are not providing the bulk of the damage therefore are not fulfilling the defined task of a DD’s role. (By “true tank and healer” I mean players actually spec’d for that role. Not fakes who slotted a taunt.)

    Assertion 3: If somebody has not yet figured out how to do their role in beginner content, they ought not fill randomqueues for advanced content where a very basic degree of competency is assumed.


    Where did I go wrong or turn elitist?

    Except, where I was stretching it is the 10-20k, where most tanks JUST graduating from normal to vet are doing 5’ish. I was going towards what you were saying, because it’s fairly ridiculous. I was trying to give you at least a tiny leg to stand on, but, guess you didn’t like it... the vast majority of players CAN do vet dungeons, and don’t measure up to your standards. Pretty much the definition of elitism when people CAN do it, they’re just not being allowed to (kicked) or so heavily frowned on that people make posts, or rebuke any who bring up how those are treated.

    As for the whole issue on which is more important... I’d say on normals, just DPS, but on vet? Healers. Not every DPS has a heal slotted for dungeons, and if they DO, it’s a sign of the real problem, as instead of having a better ability giving them MORE DPS, they’ve adapted to having crappy or fake healers. No such adaptation can be made for tanking, though, so everyone perceives the issue as being fake tanks, not healers.

    If we had real healers all the time, wouldn’t be a need to slot the heal in dungeons. As someone who loves tanking, what destroys my interest in dungeons is crappy anti-tank mechanics being so prevalent, but also fake healers. I have decent ways to keep myself alive, but no real healer, plus DPS actually worrying about DPS? Fake healer wipes the group. Enemies WILL turn on DPS because they have some abilities that are regardless of taunt, and just a little slip, DPS goes down.

    If we had a real healer, they’d have a Regen, or other HOT, or have a damage shield, etc... all sorts of support stuff the healer is responsible for.

    Instead, we have ‘healers’ that are actually just DPS, so everyone’s on their own. Most of the time not really an issue, but since PUGs always involve some Billy-Bad*** type that goes charging off ahead trying to Solo the dungeon, even on vet... way too many runs get wiped. If I’m by myself, on a boss I know has anti-tank mechanics where they have an ability that goes after highest DPS regardless of taunt, I sometimes get kicked, because the DPS has no clue about it, and having 3 of them? Bye bye tank for no friggin reason.

    If we’d had a healer, we’d have had no issues. Lack of one leads to DPS overtrusting their self-heals, and unless they ARE bad***, ends up getting them killed - and the tank gets the blame, regardless of whether they could actually do anything to change it.

    Fake tanks are bad... but fake healers wipe runs.
  • AyaDark
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    But if you show this to a lot of tanks - they will not play META raid with you.

    And a lot of them will GO to DD, as I do before.

    Because good tanks already know how to tank, now they can + dps, they can solo a lot, so META lose them.

    And META is not interested lose players.

    So how META avoid it ?

    "Tank is useless, tank is support" - just hoping he will not see the truth and just live them away.

    Because they can not do thingth other way - they can just hit dummy.

    They can not live, they can not AOE, they can not think themselves and play builds of 2016 year. Not builds sorry - with just the same idea like sets limit them in 2016 year.
    Edited by AyaDark on March 18, 2021 1:57PM
  • BejaProphet
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    @avalon you just ignored everything I said. But I’ll take that as my answer.

    If you do decide to actually engage my words please tag my name in the response, because I’m no longer expecting you to do so and won’t be checking for it.
  • Avalon
    Avalon
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    @avalon you just ignored everything I said. But I’ll take that as my answer.

    If you do decide to actually engage my words please tag my name in the response, because I’m no longer expecting you to do so and won’t be checking for it.

    The person who misread or ignored my comments telling me I did the same *shrug* no loss.
  • umagon
    umagon
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    These are my thoughts:

    Tanks do not have their own content like the damage dealing role. In fact, one hand sets like perfected void bash, and perfected rampaging slash that can only be acquired by being in the damage dealing role especially with perfected void bash.

    Due to the way healing and damage scale off the same stats it’s much easier for a player who mostly plays in the healing role to switch to the damage dealing role. Many of them backbar dps already so they have experience with dps rotations.

    With tanks it’s all in deal all of the gear and setup is based around tanking responsibilities and there is no other end game content you can use it in. Tanks don’t have a solo arena where they can test/prove their skill and earn nice awards like arena weapons and skins.

    So, there aren’t going to be many players who want to play a role where they are only awarded gear if they assist damage dealers. It’s like why play tank when you have play dps to get most of the awards in the game?

    Tanking is more hassle and less awards. You miss block you get one shot, you mess up the dodge roll you get one shot, you don’t move out of the aoe fast enough you get one shot. Damage dealer misses one button on their rotation not a big deal. Tank misses one button everyone dies.

    Then ZOS is like “let’s make tanks sprint slower, dodge roll cost more, and make them take more damage for using heavy armor.” “We are sure that will motivate players to play the role with fewest self-earned awards available in the game.”
  • BejaProphet
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    Avalon wrote: »
    @avalon you just ignored everything I said. But I’ll take that as my answer.

    If you do decide to actually engage my words please tag my name in the response, because I’m no longer expecting you to do so and won’t be checking for it.

    The person who misread or ignored my comments telling me I did the same *shrug* no loss.

    I gave you three crystal clear assertions summing up the entirety of my view and challenged you to show the fault in them.

    The burden is now on you to do so. I’m not obligated to chase the red herrings or straw man arguments which you create.

    I am sincerely willing to be shown where I am wrong in those three assertions, but to do that you will have to engage them rather than discuss a ranting characterization of my view.
  • Daemonai
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    zaria wrote: »
    Did FH HM today with an random tank. An grey Argonian in probably the bath towel.
    He was not so used to the new CP system, but we did HM after 2-3 tires, first HM in the dungeon for me.
    Group dps was in the 70K range on tank and spank like the mammoth.

    I ***sensuously*** respect tanks doing random vet dlc runs, it was not even pledge.

    I don't think that's what you meant, but he was in a bath towel, so maybe :D
  • Avalon
    Avalon
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    Avalon wrote: »
    @avalon you just ignored everything I said. But I’ll take that as my answer.

    If you do decide to actually engage my words please tag my name in the response, because I’m no longer expecting you to do so and won’t be checking for it.

    The person who misread or ignored my comments telling me I did the same *shrug* no loss.

    I gave you three crystal clear assertions summing up the entirety of my view and challenged you to show the fault in them.

    The burden is now on you to do so. I’m not obligated to chase the red herrings or straw man arguments which you create.

    I am sincerely willing to be shown where I am wrong in those three assertions, but to do that you will have to engage them rather than discuss a ranting characterization of my view.

    Your ‘assertions’ had already been handled, but, let’s go over it again:

    Assertion 1:. The role of DD’s (damage dealers) by definition is to provide the bulk of the groups damage.

    True.

    Assertion 2: If a DD can not out damage a true tank and a true healer, they are not providing the bulk of the damage therefore are not fulfilling the defined task of a DD’s role. (By “true tank and healer” I mean players actually spec’d for that role. Not fakes who slotted a taunt.)

    Until in veteran content, where they get better equipment, different equipment, more money, so on so forth, as well as ring exposed to better quality players and so many more details - ‘true tanks’ and ‘true healers’ are doing, at best, 10k DPS. As I stated in my reply to your ‘assertions’ I was being kind giving you 10-20k, but you didn’t like that, so I will give you the hard fact: most tanks and healers in normal are doing 5k’ish. Thus, the DPS doing 10k IS doing way more. They just aren’t up to YOUR snuff. So, instead of being allowed to grow, learn, etc? You are saying go back to the little leagues where they will never progress.

    Assertion 3: If somebody has not yet figured out how to do their role in beginner content, they ought not fill randomqueues for advanced content where a very basic degree of competency is assumed.

    Once a player is at the top end of the tier they are IN, they need to be allowed to enter into the next tier. That tier in question is veteran level dungeons. I answered THIS before, too. This is why I said YOU are ignoring what I said, so you claiming it? Yeah...

    You are not assuming a basic level of competency, you are assuming your adjusted level. A person ready for veteran is at the top of what normal can easily provide. They move through normal without issue, and can probably even SOLO normal dungeons. They have very little left to offer in forms of progression.

    To give you an example or two: my tank (5k DPS) can solo almost every one of the original dungeons, so can my magblade (13-15k, has been able to since 10k, though). According to your standards, neither should be going to veteran. And, my magblade should probably not be claiming to be DPS even.

    I’ve tried explaining these to you, but you ignore all of it, make your own ‘assertions’ then call me out for not answering YOUR comments, when you have yet to do so for MINE. So, again, no loss when arguing against someone who plugs their ears then says you aren’t replying properly. That’s called narcissism btw.

    What’s worse, my comment actually DID answer, you just didn’t like the answer. So, no thanks, you’re wrong, and elitist, I’ve provided ample reason and proof. If players have reached the top of the current tier, and can actually succeed on the next tier with reasonable difficulties, then they are ready for that next tier. YOU say they aren’t. That’s pretty friggin elitist, and holds them back from necessary experience and gear for growth.
  • BejaProphet
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    @avalon Thank you for responding to my actual points this time. I mean that sincerely, no sarcasm intended.

    However, if we continue in an attempt to find common ground (and I hope we do), it would be helpful if you limited your responses to the ideas that you feel are the most direct and relevant. As is there is no way I can respond to every thought in your last post and I fear that will inevitably lead you to think I’m dodging whatever statement I find inconvenient. (Less direct name calling also would help.)

    But I will give an attempt to state how I think you just advanced the conversation and I ask your forgiveness in advance if I leave out something you thought crucial.

    Assertion one you and I agree upon. The job of a DD is to provide the bulk of the groups damage.

    Assertion two: It sounded to me like we agree in theory, but we disagree on where that falls in practice. So let me ask you to clarify. Do you agree that whether it be 5k or 10k or anything else....do you agree in notion that if a DD is not putting out an amount of damage that outstrips the capability of a true tank or healer then they are failing at their role as we defined in assertion one?

    Assertion three: you said a lot of interesting stuff, but I need to know what you mean by “tier.” You said that once a player is at the top of that “tier” they need to be allowed to move to the next. Other statement make me think you mean that they have gotten all the gear they can. But I’m not certain you mean that.

    I look forward to understanding you view better.
    Edited by BejaProphet on March 18, 2021 4:11PM
  • Agenericname
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    @BejaProphet
    #3. I dont think the assertation is wrong as much as the game doesnt facilitate this as well as it could. If you draw the line for advanced content at the normal/vet line, which should be the case since the qualifier was "random queue" it can be an unrealistic expectation.

    Currently the random normal and random vet do not scale with the difficulty. That makes the normal all that much more enticing, which draws in some players who are drastically over-powered in that content. So the issues boils down to whether or not someone playing in normal dungeon in PUGs have the opportunity to both gauge and learn what they need to transition to vet.

    In many cases Id say no, they dont. Previous successes, lack of need for sustained damage, and no real need for mitigation can lead to a false sense of confidence. Which is to say, most wouldn't know they werent ready until they got there.

    I dont think that it's elitism, or even close. I simply dont think that we see a reliable way for that to happen.
  • Avalon
    Avalon
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    @avalon Thank you for responding to my actual points this time. I mean that sincerely, no sarcasm intended.

    However, if we continue in an attempt to find common ground (and I hope we do), it would be helpful if you limited your responses to the ideas that you feel are the most direct and relevant. As is there is no way I can respond to every thought in your last post and I fear that will inevitably lead you to think I’m dodging whatever statement I find inconvenient. (Less direct name calling also would help.)

    But I will give an attempt to state how I think you just advanced the conversation and I ask your forgiveness in advance if I leave out something you thought crucial.

    Assertion one you and I agree upon. The job of a DD is to provide the bulk of the groups damage.

    Assertion two: It sounded to me like we agree in theory, but we disagree on where that falls in practice. So let me ask you to clarify. Do you agree that whether it be 5k or 10k or anything else....do you agree in notion that if a DD is not putting out an amount of damage that outstrips the capability of a true tank or healer then they are failing at their role as we defined in assertion one?

    Assertion three: you said a lot of interesting stuff, but I need to know what you mean by “tier.” You said that once a player is at the top of that “tier” they need to be allowed to move to the next. Other statement make me think you mean that they have gotten all the gear they can. But I’m not certain you mean that.

    I look forward to understanding you view better.

    First, using subjective terminology, such as ‘true’ can lead to misunderstandings. For me, all ‘true’ implies for tanks and healers is that this is their actual, REAL, focus and build. Not that they are a DPS that slapped on a taunt or heal to claim they are something else. However, I feel you might be bringing an elitist POV in, and saying a ‘true’ tank is one who can do the ‘job’ as seen from your POV, at a much higher vantage point than I exist at. That might include doing X amount of DPS or having gear to which I am not able to obtain. At which point, we have issues again.

    So, for MY purposes: true means they are capable of doing the base level of their job, and their build is aimed at that goal. Base being capability of taking a lot of punishment, mitigating as much as possible, and keeping the attention of a boss through taunt, not DPS, as long as they have a healer whose build is likewise designed with the pure aim of keeping that tank standing, and the DPS when possible, while providing support abilities to aid the DPS in doing their jobs better.

    Under those understandings, yes, the DPS should aim to do more DPS, sufficiently, than the other two roles. HOWEVER, keep in mind that a DPS with 300 CP and gold gear, pumping out 10-15k DPS will NOT look like a DPS when in a group with a tank and/or healer with 1000+ CP, vet Trial-level gear, and a few million gold just sitting in their bank, etc.

    So, again, it depends entirely on your POV, where is your personal vantage point located. If it’s been at the vet trial level for over a year, you’ve likely forgotten where you came from truly. You might have rose-colored glasses, nostalgia, or all sorts of things, and, as such, not recall realistically how you got there. That’s not being offensive, that’s reality, it happens in all areas of life, not just games. But, in games it’s called elitism. And, signs of it are when people require people to live up to the ‘current’ expectations, based on a flawed recollection, of what ‘should’ be.

    That’s what I feel you are doing, and many others here. Take a look at the DPS poll recently posted. It pretty much proves most people on forums are so advanced that they’ve done most everything, and have gotten to high positions. OTOH, I hang around with people mostly at my level of the game, and the results are FAR different.

    Now, by level, or tier, I mean normal dungeons, vet dungeons. Trials go in there somewhere, but are harder to gauge, as they involve so many for some of them, that fluctuation etc is more difficult to ascertain. But, for what we have been discussing: normal vs vet dungeons. The reason is that some gear (mainly monster sets) cannot be gotten in normal dungeons, thus requiring veterans. Some of those monster sets can mean a huge difference in DPS (Zaan, Grothdaar, Maw), as well as helping Healers or Tanks greatly in their roles.

    I have grouped with tanks who could pull 20k DPS, and my DPS is maybe 15k depending on circumstances. To that tank, I’m NOT a DPS. To the normal tanks I’ve been around in normal, and even in vets sometimes, I’m tripling them. Huge variance based on simple perspectives, POV.

    At my tier (normal, starting on vets), top DPS I’ve seen (in game, people i hang with, etc) IS me. And, I’ve talked to tons of people, grouped with at least hundreds. Very rarely, I see someone higher, so rare I don’t even include them, because they were obviously slumming, and I never saw them again. So, I come here, with my 15k ‘DPS’(as basically the best I have directly seen from everyone I’ve been around more than once), and see over half the people have over 30k.

    That should tell you, the people HERE are the ‘ivory tower’ peeps, not the norm. The norm are the ones being kicked because they just don’t do ‘enough’.
  • BejaProphet
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    @Agenericname I think you are right on all accounts. I do not say that anything can or ought to be done, I merely am saying that at least in theory it is not elitist to say that somebody who can’t fulfill the DD role ought not to dungeon finder advanced content.

    The NOTION is not elitist. I never kick in PUGs, I never belittle anybody in my group. If at all possible I carry them through the dungeon. Nor should they be banned nor should there be elaborate tests for entry.

    I am only saying that it’s not elitist to say they should be able to perform the role before they choose to subject others to them joining.
  • BejaProphet
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    @avalon thanks, that post was very helpful.

    If you don’t mind, I’d like to focus on your response to assertion 2. We agree on assertion 1, and I know how I’d respond to three, but two is the first place we diverge.

    For help to those reading us let me post a super nifty header...

    Assertion 2 in my personal belief: A DD who is unable to surpass the capability of true tanks and healers in dealing damage is failing at the role.

    First, I agree with your definition of a true tank. That is what I mean. I’m saying “true” merely to distance our discussion from people saying “My tank does 28k!” And when we look we can’t recognize it as a tank.

    Second, while defining terms let’s say what we mean by elitism. Strictly speaking the word does not fit ESO at all. It’s about government and power being put in the hands of the select and most fit few. But obviously we mean something else. So let’s say elitism is catering the game to the elite few rather than the masses who don’t fit that standard.

    But I want to argue we must distinguish elitism from just having bare minimum standards. For example, when a nation legally requires a passable degree of vision to allow people to drive, that is not elitism.

    So what I ask if you, is to put aside the fear of what I might be saying and consider if what I am actually saying is a demand that the game be catered to an elite few or if instead I am merely asserting the bare minimum to do a task.

    Keep in mind. All I have said is that 10k is insufficient, and 20k is plenty. I don’t pretend to know where to draw the line between there. I just know that somewhere between there they hit the point a good true tank can’t.

    So this brings us to three.. What are they failing or succeeding at? Answer: the job of doing damage in a way a true support can’t. Whether or not the dungeon succeeds isn’t the question. Anybody can be carried through a dungeon. In assertion two, we are asking not whether the group succeeds, but whether that individual did his job. And his job is to bring a level of damage that a support build can’t.

    So here is my biggest idea in this massive post: for me to expect them to bring a level of damage that support builds can’t, is NOT elitism but rather me looking for the bare minimum to do a job. Not unlike asking a prospective driver to be able to see.

    From there, we now need to address your very excellent comments on point of view. Where is that line actually at?

    First, we must acknowledge we are talking about veteran content. They have chosen to jump into the deep end of the pool, and it will no longer do to make arguments based on allowances. Let them join us if they like, let them be carried or let them thrive, none of it matters when we ask the simple question of if they were able to fulfill the role of DD where they actually were.

    Second, what amount? Well let’s focus on tanks since it will like be the lesser amount. We’ll use my DPS. I have written a guide on tanking. In this guide I argue -at length- why a tank should NOT pursue personal dps. I think tanks should focus entirely on tanking and personal DPS is a distraction from that. But even with that conviction I think I do 6-7k damage with only rotating through my TANK skills. So I am quite certain that a TRUE tank as we defined it, who actually cared about DPS could squeeze out 10k if they cared to. And some gimmick builds will hit 15k while still being a very robust legitimate tank. That is simply the reality at the end of the journey. Not the upper crust elites, merely just the end of leveling and getting set up.

    Now, one tank may do 3k, me 6k, and another 10k. It doesn’t matter. I am saying that until an aspiring DD breaks out of that damage spectrum that tanks are in, they aren’t really a DAMAGE DEALER as distinct from tanks are they?

    I expect my DD’s to do a level of damage that I’m not going to see from a TRUE tank. 10k is not that.

    So I assert, I am not catering the game to the elite few, I am asking the bare minimum dps to actually distinguish yourself from the other roles based on doing a different range of damage.

    Edited for grammer
    Edited by BejaProphet on March 18, 2021 6:16PM
  • josiahva
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    I main a tank...in fact I very rarely play other roles.

    Before this patch, I would tank every day, 4-5 dungeons, maybe a trial, and the odd dragon or more challenging world boss. With this patch, I am down to tanking less than once a week, (and not even playing at all otherwise). My reasons are as follows:

    1. The new champion system. The fact that I am forced to spend 33% of my champion points in a tree that has relatively little combat use...the crafting tree...this is a huge problem...it wasn't bad with the old system because my 1150 CP or whatever was MORE than enough to unlock all the PVE tanking stuff I needed, with plenty left over for damage and/or healing things. But now, I have nowhere close to enough CP to unlock even the tanking stuff I need, much less the optional stuff. The new system moves all the worthless stars into a single tree instead of being spread between them where you can ignore them and choose something relevant.

    In addition to that, the fact you have to slot most of the interesting abilities shoehorns you into only doing a single thing well. There goes the versatility of being able to use dressing room and go hybrid Tank/DPS, or hybrid Tank/Healer...now all I can do effectively is tank....even if a hybrid role is more useful in a given boss fight or dungeon. I now have no choice...all I can do is taunt and block, buff things....the DPS got their wish...tanks are purely buff monkeys now without any flexibility. Great job ZOS...now I don;t want to tank anymore. I can't even be bothered to log in to grind CP anymore because to do so I am forced to log into a DPS to make it even moderately interesting.

    2. The heavy armor nerfs. I don't mind taking more damage from magicka attacks...whatever, I can deal with that easily enough. What gets me is the speed nerf...why? What is the point of that garbage? Now I am forced to waste even MORE CP to increase my out of combat speed so the DPS don't have to wait around so long for me to reach the fights...and of course that means less CP in combat effective things. Then the roll dodge penalty...why does everyone else who isnt taking the brunt of the attacks get to roll dodge just fine, but tanks who HAVE to survive when they can't face-tank something get penalized for doing so? Sure...I can spend more CP to get a free roll dodge(and I have) every 30 seconds...great...except the reality is I have to roll dodge a lot more often than that in some fights...and doing so wastes CP that could make more effective in other areas.

    I am sure a lot of people are thrilled that people are shoehorned into their specific role by these changes....but for those who prefer to play more versatile characters, we got screwed, and tank has always been a versatile role(or had the capability to be one). So yeah....fewer tanks because there is less reason to play....it takes a bit to master the tank role...but once you do, instead of branching out and adding heals or damage, now all you CAN do is tank, and that is boring. My resources are under much more strain since the patch, so even if I had the capability to be hybrid DPS/tank still, I don't have the stamina left available to do any real amount of damage with. Prior to the patch, I was able to pull off a decent 15-20k single target while tanking...now, and BEST I can reach 13k and most of that comes from proc sets because I am forced to slot tank-relevant stars as the primary role. Yay, PvP players got their wish...tanks do less damage, the result is that PvE tanks have become completely disinterested unless they like playing the meat-shield buff monkey tank stereotype.
  • Agenericname
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    @BejaProphet
    I agree, I do not believe that it's elitist or even close to it. Ideally its exactly what should happen.




  • Avalon
    Avalon
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    @BejaProphet

    I think we agree on a lot more than either realize... however, I still need to get a single thing through. The aspiring vet DPS might only have 9-10K on leaving Normal-Tier. A monster set like Zaan or Maw could easily add 2-3K, putting them above your minimum. However, to get that set, they need to do veteran content. There is a point where you become the manager telling a prospective employee that you won't hire them because they need experience, but they cannot get experience without getting a job doing whatever it is. That is why I am telling you there is a level of elitism in your comments (which, btw, has gone down since you started responding and discussing, just fyi).

    You are also one of the lower end elitist-sounding people I have seen on here, and in game. To me, btw, elitism is when the country club says you can't join, because you don't make $X per year, don't belong to certain groups, etc. We can exchange those requirements for "Doesn't do enough DPS" and "Isn't in a guild that will escort them through and get them to higher level gear". Most don't belong to the second, and the newer players, without friends (or only friends that are in the same category), will find getting the first one to be a little problematic if other players demand higher requirements (again, you are only asking >10K, but most seem to want 15K or more just to start veteran content).

    So, yeah, sounds elitist when those sorts of requirements are being made. Elitists DO exist, and they are worse than any fake-whatever. My friend readied up as a tank, has taunt, 30K+ health with good resists (25K+), and was kicked from a NORMAL because on trash fights he was using a 2H weapon...

    That sort of mentality is all over in this game, and worse in veteran content. No one seems to care about a DPS readying up as a healer, though. And, that has ruined several runs I've been on (as DPS or tank). We can kite the boss around and pass them off, etc (especially on normal), but true healers layer healing, it isn't just an emergency button being spammed and hoping. So, if just a few things go sideways, not having a real healer screws everyone. And, as we both agree - tanks don't do a lot of DPS, so only so much the tank can do while they are still standing there with 3 corpses due to no healer. Yeah, I can continue fighting for 20 minutes and eventually kill it... but, I think everyone's time is way better spent otherwise, right?

    So, yeah, I agree... DPS 'should' have a base minimum, but that minimum should be wherever they are confidently handling normal content, and getting bored with how easy it is. When that happens, they should, by all means, graduate to veteran content. If anyone up there has issue with them doing that, then they are being elitist - because even THEY came from somewhere, and had to make that jump at some point, and the VAST majority of people playing vet didn't wait until 15-20K, they jumped closer to 10K, maybe even under it (especially on old dungeons).
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Avalon wrote: »
    @BejaProphet

    I think we agree on a lot more than either realize... however, I still need to get a single thing through. The aspiring vet DPS might only have 9-10K on leaving Normal-Tier. A monster set like Zaan or Maw could easily add 2-3K, putting them above your minimum. However, to get that set, they need to do veteran content. There is a point where you become the manager telling a prospective employee that you won't hire them because they need experience, but they cannot get experience without getting a job doing whatever it is. That is why I am telling you there is a level of elitism in your comments (which, btw, has gone down since you started responding and discussing, just fyi).

    You are also one of the lower end elitist-sounding people I have seen on here, and in game. To me, btw, elitism is when the country club says you can't join, because you don't make $X per year, don't belong to certain groups, etc. We can exchange those requirements for "Doesn't do enough DPS" and "Isn't in a guild that will escort them through and get them to higher level gear". Most don't belong to the second, and the newer players, without friends (or only friends that are in the same category), will find getting the first one to be a little problematic if other players demand higher requirements (again, you are only asking >10K, but most seem to want 15K or more just to start veteran content).

    So, yeah, sounds elitist when those sorts of requirements are being made. Elitists DO exist, and they are worse than any fake-whatever. My friend readied up as a tank, has taunt, 30K+ health with good resists (25K+), and was kicked from a NORMAL because on trash fights he was using a 2H weapon...

    That sort of mentality is all over in this game, and worse in veteran content. No one seems to care about a DPS readying up as a healer, though. And, that has ruined several runs I've been on (as DPS or tank). We can kite the boss around and pass them off, etc (especially on normal), but true healers layer healing, it isn't just an emergency button being spammed and hoping. So, if just a few things go sideways, not having a real healer screws everyone. And, as we both agree - tanks don't do a lot of DPS, so only so much the tank can do while they are still standing there with 3 corpses due to no healer. Yeah, I can continue fighting for 20 minutes and eventually kill it... but, I think everyone's time is way better spent otherwise, right?

    So, yeah, I agree... DPS 'should' have a base minimum, but that minimum should be wherever they are confidently handling normal content, and getting bored with how easy it is. When that happens, they should, by all means, graduate to veteran content. If anyone up there has issue with them doing that, then they are being elitist - because even THEY came from somewhere, and had to make that jump at some point, and the VAST majority of people playing vet didn't wait until 15-20K, they jumped closer to 10K, maybe even under it (especially on old dungeons).
    However if you do 10K dps you are very unlikely to get Zaan, Scalecaller Peak is not very forgiving.

    Maw on the other hand you can get, yes I say you should do around 20K dps in vet dungeons, but that is my standard and I just don't use that character in an 4 key run.
    But BC2 is not that hard you just need some coordination for HM, don't fake tank it, yes it can be done but require skill and an real tank works much better here.

    Healers, all of my magic builds have an healer option, the one I use is my magplar, hat tricks is running mother sorrow, zaan, malestrom staff and SPC front bar, extended ritual and ritual of rebirth for healing.
    That is an DD setup for an 3-4 DD run or healer for easy stuff. Use spell strategist if some else heals but still have ritual of rebirth on bar. Yes you loose combat prayer but you get 30k dps if I dont' have to heal much.
    Obviously I can switch to an more healing focused build then needed
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Starlight_Whisper
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    IMAO it's because tanking isn't fun. Healing either.

    Ripping enemies apart is much more fun.

    Totally disagree.

    Tanking and healing is much more fun for me than DPS'ing.

    It obviously isn't for most or there would be a lot more of them.

    The question is why not?
  • SilverBride
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    IMAO it's because tanking isn't fun. Healing either.

    Ripping enemies apart is much more fun.

    Totally disagree.

    Tanking and healing is much more fun for me than DPS'ing.

    It obviously isn't for most or there would be a lot more of them.

    The question is why not?

    For me personally it's because I find being a tank too much work. You have to know all the fights, etc., to a degree beyond what the dps need to know, and I don't want to have to study to play a game.

    And healing is too stressful because you are responsible for keeping everyone in the group alive.

    I only want to be responsible for my own actions and ripping mobs apart is what is fun for me.
    Edited by SilverBride on March 18, 2021 9:36PM
    PCNA
  • Jusey1
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    Danikat wrote: »
    (Also tanking solo is pointless because there's no one else for them to attack anyway.)

    There's also the fact that anyone can technically taunt anyways when playing in a public area...So there's no need to run full tank anywhere outside of dungeons and trials.
  • BejaProphet
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    I agree we are coming to some common ground. But if you look back through all my posts (which I routinely do when I find myself in heated discussions) I have been extremely consistent in my view. Perhaps my tone changed, I’m not sure. But what I called for was always the same.

    Second, to clarify, I’m saying 10k is insufficient. 20k is sufficient. I don’t know where the actual line is in between.

    Third, if a person can’t hit more than 10k no monster set will suddenly make a person competent. I think you have a mistaken notion of how much of a difference they make. And beside monster sets, NOTHING is locked behind vet content.

    Fourth, I don’t think you understand how low of a bar I am suggesting.

    To demonstrate, I literally just paused writing this and walked over to a 3 million health training dummy (not the one that buffs you). Let me tell you about my character

    This is my tank character. I swapped out my gear skills and mundus. Used a different food.

    I have decent damage sets but I do not have meta gear. No perfected yards yadda.

    I used mighty chudan monster set just to prove monster sets won’t carry somebody.

    I am a harry-arsed Nord.

    I have 64 attributes into health.

    I do better DPS with dual wield but I used a two-handed weapon because I think it looks cool.

    I’m using trash looted potions cuz I’m cheap.

    Here is the kicker. I have absolutely not one single CP point in anything that would help my damage. This is effectively a zero CP character as far as damage is concerned.. This is because consoles just got update 29 and I haven’t worked damage stuff yet, only tanking.

    Results: 25,741 damage per second.

    And I’m being told that I’m on the light end of elitist because my expectations of dedicated damage dealers is someplace between 10-20k?

    It’s not elitism, it’s called kindness. All I ask is for them to do enough to at least identify as a damage dealer. What I am asking is simply asking people to be able to see before they drive. I’m not kicking people out of the country club because they are poor folk.

    And even when they don’t, I’ve never once booted one from a dungeon for low DPS.
  • StamPlar_1976
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    The average damage is so awful that I couldn't stand tanking for pugs. I'm not even an endgame dps and I still hit harder than most pugs I come across, which is odd. I see cp 810+ people just spamming snipe and maybe a light attack here or there and it hurts my spirit.

    I'm sorry. I keep seeing this posted in every thread like this. In the hundreds of random queues I have been in, I have never seen the snipe bow light attack spammer. Matter of fact. The amount of bad runs I have had with terrible players of all roles, especially dps, is less than less than 1 percent. And in those times that I have had those bad pugs, the majority of the time it wasn't the dps that wasn't pulling their weight.

    I don't know who y'all are pugging with. But I really have to wonder if some of y'all are exaggerating the frequency of having bad pugs just to make your points.
  • VaxtinTheWolf
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    I guess not many remember the smooth, quick and easy sessions but they certainly remember when one of your DPS is turning tail back towards the entrance from a single mob in a non DLC Veteran and/or when their combat consists of light attacking three times, then using two abilities, light attacking 4 more times, heavy attacking once, another light attack and then using a healing ability when everyone is already near or at 100%. Been a while but that's a close example of one experience I had and I remember it because their behavior never changed despite me spending half the dungeon telling them not to run away, and to stay close to the group, but they seemed to just ignore my requests. May not happen often but it's probably more memorable since it's a bad experience.


    In my case, I haven't been playing this game that much so haven't been fulfilling the tank role in a while. I want to get into DLC dungeons, but also don't want to waste anyone's' time either since I like to 'explore' and admire the environments, go through the Quest and let the NPC's speak all their dialogue options and learn the mechanics of each fight at a slower pace rather than having them skipped or ignored. This is why I have soloed maybe two or three of them on normal at least once on my Nightblade Tank a long time ago so I could do those things, but not confident enough to group for them.
    Edited by VaxtinTheWolf on March 19, 2021 2:09AM
    || AD - Rah'Jiin Lv50 Khajiit Nightblade (Damage) || EP - Generic Argonian Lv50 Argonian Nightblade (Tank) || DC - Zinkotsu Lv50 Breton Nightblade (Healer) ||
    || DC - Ja'Kiro Feral-Heart Lv50 Khajiit Dragonknight (Damage) || EP - VaxtinTheWolf Lv50 Redguard Templar (Tank) || AD - Velik Iranis Lv50 Dark Elf Sorcerer (Tank ) ||
    || EP - Einvarg The Frozen Lv50 Nord Warden (Tank/Healer) || EP - Keem-Ja Lv4 Argonian Necromancer (Healer/Tank) ||
    PC - North American Server (Champion 1300+)
  • MalEducado
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    The average damage is so awful that I couldn't stand tanking for pugs. I'm not even an endgame dps and I still hit harder than most pugs I come across, which is odd. I see cp 810+ people just spamming snipe and maybe a light attack here or there and it hurts my spirit.

    I'm sorry. I keep seeing this posted in every thread like this. In the hundreds of random queues I have been in, I have never seen the snipe bow light attack spammer. Matter of fact. The amount of bad runs I have had with terrible players of all roles, especially dps, is less than less than 1 percent. And in those times that I have had those bad pugs, the majority of the time it wasn't the dps that wasn't pulling their weight.

    I don't know who y'all are pugging with. But I really have to wonder if some of y'all are exaggerating the frequency of having bad pugs just to make your points.

    i did some no death runs in pug... falkreath hold, scalecaller and march of sacrifices... but its a miracle to find good players
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