BejaProphet wrote: »@avalon you are stretching my words to frame them as unreasonable. I said 10k. Not 10-20k as a tank. And I specified that I was talking about people really doing their role. But let’s make this even clearer. I’ll make a series of concise clear assertions, and you tell me precisely where my reasoning breaks down or becomes unreasonable or is elitist.
Assertion 1:. The role of DD’s (damage dealers) by definition is to provide the bulk of the groups damage.
Assertion 2: If a DD can not out damage a true tank and a true healer, they are not providing the bulk of the damage therefore are not fulfilling the defined task of a DD’s role. (By “true tank and healer” I mean players actually spec’d for that role. Not fakes who slotted a taunt.)
Assertion 3: If somebody has not yet figured out how to do their role in beginner content, they ought not fill randomqueues for advanced content where a very basic degree of competency is assumed.
Where did I go wrong or turn elitist?
Tanking is just not fun in ESO. You can be the best tank in ESO and you'll be at mercy of your DPS's ability to DPS.
Tanking is a civil service and something that has to be done, not something many people choose to do because it's fun.... because it's not. Tank mains in ESO have to have the patience of a saint to stick with that role for so long.
Tanks, what about damage of Power Bash? It deals actually more damage than brawler and I have used brawler as spammable and things died quick in overland. And in normal dungeons. Power Slam looks like good for questing and solo gameplay on paper. It looks very tasty, actually. Every block increases your damage, every use of this skill increases its damage up to 50%, looks like good spamable.
Than try it
But i do not see it as some thing good.
Brawler is really good ability.
I will, but I would like to hear other people opinions about it.
Also I am obsessed with the idea of two handed tank/DD, like in old school mmorpgs.
BejaProphet wrote: »@avalon you are stretching my words to frame them as unreasonable. I said 10k. Not 10-20k as a tank. And I specified that I was talking about people really doing their role. But let’s make this even clearer. I’ll make a series of concise clear assertions, and you tell me precisely where my reasoning breaks down or becomes unreasonable or is elitist.
Assertion 1:. The role of DD’s (damage dealers) by definition is to provide the bulk of the groups damage.
Assertion 2: If a DD can not out damage a true tank and a true healer, they are not providing the bulk of the damage therefore are not fulfilling the defined task of a DD’s role. (By “true tank and healer” I mean players actually spec’d for that role. Not fakes who slotted a taunt.)
Assertion 3: If somebody has not yet figured out how to do their role in beginner content, they ought not fill randomqueues for advanced content where a very basic degree of competency is assumed.
Where did I go wrong or turn elitist?
BejaProphet wrote: »@avalon you just ignored everything I said. But I’ll take that as my answer.
If you do decide to actually engage my words please tag my name in the response, because I’m no longer expecting you to do so and won’t be checking for it.
BejaProphet wrote: »@avalon you just ignored everything I said. But I’ll take that as my answer.
If you do decide to actually engage my words please tag my name in the response, because I’m no longer expecting you to do so and won’t be checking for it.
The person who misread or ignored my comments telling me I did the same *shrug* no loss.
Did FH HM today with an random tank. An grey Argonian in probably the bath towel.
He was not so used to the new CP system, but we did HM after 2-3 tires, first HM in the dungeon for me.
Group dps was in the 70K range on tank and spank like the mammoth.
I ***sensuously*** respect tanks doing random vet dlc runs, it was not even pledge.
BejaProphet wrote: »BejaProphet wrote: »@avalon you just ignored everything I said. But I’ll take that as my answer.
If you do decide to actually engage my words please tag my name in the response, because I’m no longer expecting you to do so and won’t be checking for it.
The person who misread or ignored my comments telling me I did the same *shrug* no loss.
I gave you three crystal clear assertions summing up the entirety of my view and challenged you to show the fault in them.
The burden is now on you to do so. I’m not obligated to chase the red herrings or straw man arguments which you create.
I am sincerely willing to be shown where I am wrong in those three assertions, but to do that you will have to engage them rather than discuss a ranting characterization of my view.
BejaProphet wrote: »@avalon Thank you for responding to my actual points this time. I mean that sincerely, no sarcasm intended.
However, if we continue in an attempt to find common ground (and I hope we do), it would be helpful if you limited your responses to the ideas that you feel are the most direct and relevant. As is there is no way I can respond to every thought in your last post and I fear that will inevitably lead you to think I’m dodging whatever statement I find inconvenient. (Less direct name calling also would help.)
But I will give an attempt to state how I think you just advanced the conversation and I ask your forgiveness in advance if I leave out something you thought crucial.
Assertion one you and I agree upon. The job of a DD is to provide the bulk of the groups damage.
Assertion two: It sounded to me like we agree in theory, but we disagree on where that falls in practice. So let me ask you to clarify. Do you agree that whether it be 5k or 10k or anything else....do you agree in notion that if a DD is not putting out an amount of damage that outstrips the capability of a true tank or healer then they are failing at their role as we defined in assertion one?
Assertion three: you said a lot of interesting stuff, but I need to know what you mean by “tier.” You said that once a player is at the top of that “tier” they need to be allowed to move to the next. Other statement make me think you mean that they have gotten all the gear they can. But I’m not certain you mean that.
I look forward to understanding you view better.
However if you do 10K dps you are very unlikely to get Zaan, Scalecaller Peak is not very forgiving.@BejaProphet
I think we agree on a lot more than either realize... however, I still need to get a single thing through. The aspiring vet DPS might only have 9-10K on leaving Normal-Tier. A monster set like Zaan or Maw could easily add 2-3K, putting them above your minimum. However, to get that set, they need to do veteran content. There is a point where you become the manager telling a prospective employee that you won't hire them because they need experience, but they cannot get experience without getting a job doing whatever it is. That is why I am telling you there is a level of elitism in your comments (which, btw, has gone down since you started responding and discussing, just fyi).
You are also one of the lower end elitist-sounding people I have seen on here, and in game. To me, btw, elitism is when the country club says you can't join, because you don't make $X per year, don't belong to certain groups, etc. We can exchange those requirements for "Doesn't do enough DPS" and "Isn't in a guild that will escort them through and get them to higher level gear". Most don't belong to the second, and the newer players, without friends (or only friends that are in the same category), will find getting the first one to be a little problematic if other players demand higher requirements (again, you are only asking >10K, but most seem to want 15K or more just to start veteran content).
So, yeah, sounds elitist when those sorts of requirements are being made. Elitists DO exist, and they are worse than any fake-whatever. My friend readied up as a tank, has taunt, 30K+ health with good resists (25K+), and was kicked from a NORMAL because on trash fights he was using a 2H weapon...
That sort of mentality is all over in this game, and worse in veteran content. No one seems to care about a DPS readying up as a healer, though. And, that has ruined several runs I've been on (as DPS or tank). We can kite the boss around and pass them off, etc (especially on normal), but true healers layer healing, it isn't just an emergency button being spammed and hoping. So, if just a few things go sideways, not having a real healer screws everyone. And, as we both agree - tanks don't do a lot of DPS, so only so much the tank can do while they are still standing there with 3 corpses due to no healer. Yeah, I can continue fighting for 20 minutes and eventually kill it... but, I think everyone's time is way better spent otherwise, right?
So, yeah, I agree... DPS 'should' have a base minimum, but that minimum should be wherever they are confidently handling normal content, and getting bored with how easy it is. When that happens, they should, by all means, graduate to veteran content. If anyone up there has issue with them doing that, then they are being elitist - because even THEY came from somewhere, and had to make that jump at some point, and the VAST majority of people playing vet didn't wait until 15-20K, they jumped closer to 10K, maybe even under it (especially on old dungeons).
SilverBride wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »IMAO it's because tanking isn't fun. Healing either.
Ripping enemies apart is much more fun.
Totally disagree.
Tanking and healing is much more fun for me than DPS'ing.
It obviously isn't for most or there would be a lot more of them.
Starlight_Whisper wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »SilverBride wrote: »IMAO it's because tanking isn't fun. Healing either.
Ripping enemies apart is much more fun.
Totally disagree.
Tanking and healing is much more fun for me than DPS'ing.
It obviously isn't for most or there would be a lot more of them.
The question is why not?
Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »The average damage is so awful that I couldn't stand tanking for pugs. I'm not even an endgame dps and I still hit harder than most pugs I come across, which is odd. I see cp 810+ people just spamming snipe and maybe a light attack here or there and it hurts my spirit.
StamPlar_1976 wrote: »Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »The average damage is so awful that I couldn't stand tanking for pugs. I'm not even an endgame dps and I still hit harder than most pugs I come across, which is odd. I see cp 810+ people just spamming snipe and maybe a light attack here or there and it hurts my spirit.
I'm sorry. I keep seeing this posted in every thread like this. In the hundreds of random queues I have been in, I have never seen the snipe bow light attack spammer. Matter of fact. The amount of bad runs I have had with terrible players of all roles, especially dps, is less than less than 1 percent. And in those times that I have had those bad pugs, the majority of the time it wasn't the dps that wasn't pulling their weight.
I don't know who y'all are pugging with. But I really have to wonder if some of y'all are exaggerating the frequency of having bad pugs just to make your points.