why there are a lot of dds instead of tanks?

Starlight_Whisper

Sarannah wrote: »

The reason why we see more DPS is because tanks are terrible for questing overland. And in groupcontent, we are often blamed when something goes wrong. I once got kicked from a group at a DPS check boss, that is how strange tanking sometimes is.

Now personally I love tanking, as it is much more dynamic than just having a rotation. You have to see/feel the environment and group, and respond to that. As a pure tank I actually love it when the healer is just an off-healer, and more of a DPS. As a pure tank I can survive a lot, and the extra DPS makes dungeons faster. This makes almost all my runs smooth.

Tanking by no means is boring, it is actually quite intense. If you are only standing still in fights, and find boss fights long, you are doing something wrong. So far I've only had about a handful of bad DPS groups. I also do not follow the tank meta or best sets, I use my own and build the tank around that. Same as I do with my DPS.

With the buff to pure tanks this CP 2.0, it is even more fun. Although I can only do so many runs, as it is quite exhausting to always be aware. Then I just log in a DPS character and do some relaxing overland.

As a pure healer, I love when take is fake tank most of the time. Dungeon design just sucks for support roles....

@ZOS_Finn

Agenericname

preevious wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Again, with all the horror stories ..

"I'm a tank, and everytime I queue, both DPS pull negative numbers . .last time, they were healing the boss in FG1"

I'm the first one to thank my tank during a dungeon, and appreciate all the effort he puts making the run as easy as possible (seriously .. good tanks rules all) , but enough with the lies ..

Either you run in normal, and can't really complain when you get the odd DD, since it's normal, and everyone is a supposed beginner, there..

Or you run in vet, and the overwhelming, crushing majority of the DD you'll encounter are at least correct.

I mean, bad luck can happen, and you might end up with 2 very poor DDs, but saying it happens everytime? It's wrong, and bordeline elitist. It's incredibely rare.
Every other DD I partyfind with are at the very least in the 15-20k range. Often higher.

I don't say it never happens, but the odds are small. (especially for the 2 dds to be utterly bad)

The odds are basically irrelevant. They're enough to make it to where tanks dont want to. At that point the numerical value doesnt matter. Its arbitrary. In other words, 1:10 or 1:100 doesnt matter if the tank isnt willing to roll the dice. There are enough tanks that speak of this to give it substance.

"Every run" is either false or extremely bad luck. I'll give you that. Its not that bad, but I think you may look at it from a DDs perspective. In which case you do have some control over group damage. As a tank, you dont.

I agree with both of the videos. I also agree that there are more tanks in the game than represented in the dugeon finder. I think both contribute to the shortage.

Indeed, you make valid points.

I suppose having a bad tank (yeah, they do exist, too) is more tolerable than having bad damage. I can understand that.
A quick hell failure is better than a long purgatory success, I suppose.
And you sometime can do without a tank, though it's borderline unbearable.

Also, indeed, since I'm a DD, and can perform adequately in any content, I never find myself in groups where damage is a real issue.. still, I look at my % of group damage, when I do a run (combat metrics), so I can "judge" the other DD pretty precisely, since I know where I should stand on that scale.
Most players (all roles confounded) in the vet-running community are quite capables (barring the odd one looking for a carry).


Ultimately, what I mean to say to the community is .. roll that dice a bit more, tank friends ..
Don't expect 120k of combined DPS everytime, but you'll still get decent groups.
We need you !

Yes, as a competent DD, I have no reason to doubt you, you really shouldn't ever see a scenario where both DDs perform poorly.

I do mostly vet DLCs when I PUG and occassionally a base game vet. I dont run normals at all, so thats my data set. I'd say that failures in non-HM vet DLCs are less than 10%. Seriously. The issue with low DPS isnt just low DPS though. Its rarely that low in a vacuum, as in the 10-30k group range. When the runs are bad, they can be rough. Ive seen people get really bitter and nasty. Fortunately, as youve said, that crowd isnt bad.

I agree with video in the OP. As long as Ive played MMOs that had roles, tanks and healers have always been scarce. Which suggests to me that low DPS isnt the only issue, but it is certainly one of them here.

zaria

Brrrofski wrote: »

Well for most normals, you don't need one.

For vet, being a pure tank and ending up with crappy dps is awful. Seriously, I've been like 50 minutes in wayrest 1 before.

On my first tank I was insecure and went for an pure tank build as I only leveled in random dungeons so make an overland setup later. This worked well until I was lvl 48 and got BC2, I learned two things: BC2 has two dps checks keeper Indril and the daedrots on last boss and you can wipe multiple times on both in normal.

One benefit of being an decent tank is that you don't need to run with randoms, you ask for group in guild. Healers has the benefit that its not much difference between an healer and an magic DD, a bit CP and some other morphs if optimized for healing.
I have run vet dungeons with just Ritual of Rebirth and extended ritual on an dps build, yes that is the easier ones
However run plenty of 4DD normal dlc farming runs and on my magplar people don't die simply because I have some healing skills on bars. Love templars because of the rotation
Tanks are less flexible, yes I say most PvP builds could tank any normal and easier vet.

cynicalbutterfly

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

The reason why we see more DPS is because tanks are terrible for questing overland. And in groupcontent, we are often blamed when something goes wrong. I once got kicked from a group at a DPS check boss, that is how strange tanking sometimes is.

Now personally I love tanking, as it is much more dynamic than just having a rotation. You have to see/feel the environment and group, and respond to that. As a pure tank I actually love it when the healer is just an off-healer, and more of a DPS. As a pure tank I can survive a lot, and the extra DPS makes dungeons faster. This makes almost all my runs smooth.

Tanking by no means is boring, it is actually quite intense. If you are only standing still in fights, and find boss fights long, you are doing something wrong. So far I've only had about a handful of bad DPS groups. I also do not follow the tank meta or best sets, I use my own and build the tank around that. Same as I do with my DPS.

With the buff to pure tanks this CP 2.0, it is even more fun. Although I can only do so many runs, as it is quite exhausting to always be aware. Then I just log in a DPS character and do some relaxing overland.

As a pure healer, I love when take is fake tank most of the time. Dungeon design just sucks for support roles....

I'm not a pure healer but I find that I really don't care if the tank is fake or not. I really don't even care if the dps aren't giving out high damage. Important part is whether or not we can finish and if we can then nothing else matters. I'll keep everyone alive and buffed as much as I can to get the job done xD

On another note, I have never done a tank role. It just feels like they're all under way too much pressure in a dungeon. It really shouldn't be that way tbh. The tank should be able to tank the way he/she wants and not what someone else expects. Same goes for dps and healers.

zaria

MalEducado wrote: »

Eedat wrote: »

I don't PUG on my tank because I can't bear getting stuck with two DDs outputting a combined 15k DPS for the hundredth time. I only tank with premades where I can rely on the DDs to not be potatos

thats another reason , specially in vet dlc content... true

Did FH HM today with an random tank. An grey Argonian in probably the bath towel.
He was not so used to the new CP system, but we did HM after 2-3 tires, first HM in the dungeon for me.
Group dps was in the 70K range on tank and spank like the mammoth.

I sensuously respect tanks doing random vet dlc runs, it was not even pledge.

amm7sb14_ESO

cynicalbutterfly wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

The reason why we see more DPS is because tanks are terrible for questing overland. And in groupcontent, we are often blamed when something goes wrong. I once got kicked from a group at a DPS check boss, that is how strange tanking sometimes is.

Now personally I love tanking, as it is much more dynamic than just having a rotation. You have to see/feel the environment and group, and respond to that. As a pure tank I actually love it when the healer is just an off-healer, and more of a DPS. As a pure tank I can survive a lot, and the extra DPS makes dungeons faster. This makes almost all my runs smooth.

Tanking by no means is boring, it is actually quite intense. If you are only standing still in fights, and find boss fights long, you are doing something wrong. So far I've only had about a handful of bad DPS groups. I also do not follow the tank meta or best sets, I use my own and build the tank around that. Same as I do with my DPS.

With the buff to pure tanks this CP 2.0, it is even more fun. Although I can only do so many runs, as it is quite exhausting to always be aware. Then I just log in a DPS character and do some relaxing overland.

As a pure healer, I love when take is fake tank most of the time. Dungeon design just sucks for support roles....

I'm not a pure healer but I find that I really don't care if the tank is fake or not. I really don't even care if the dps aren't giving out high damage. Important part is whether or not we can finish and if we can then nothing else matters. I'll keep everyone alive and buffed as much as I can to get the job done xD

On another note, I have never done a tank role. It just feels like they're all under way too much pressure in a dungeon. It really shouldn't be that way tbh. The tank should be able to tank the way he/she wants and not what someone else expects. Same goes for dps and healers.

I do tank, and this is exactly why I build my tank the way I see fit, and not the way some build guide or follower tells me I should build.

robertthebard

Because of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ivtJD0t9M4&ab_channel=PressStartToLaugh

etchedpixels

kaisernick wrote: »

Tanking however feels like it does nothing right, the lack of a aoe taunt is baffeling as every other mmos has them and sure my tanks are great at soaking damage but they do almost no damage and thats isnt a ideal situation.

The Tormentor set gives an AOE taunt

SilverBride

IMAO it's because tanking isn't fun. Healing either.

Ripping enemies apart is much more fun.

Kiralyn2000

Every MMO I've ever played, this question pops up. There are always more DPS than tanks & healers. For a variety of reasons - tanking/healing is harder and/or gets blamed for wipes; tanking/healing is lousy for solo/questing/etc; DPS is easier/more fun/less stressful/etc.

Nothing new here, I've been hearing the same stuff for 15+ years across lots of games. As long as a game has roles in the first place, there will always be an excess of DPS and a lack of tanks & healers.

amm7sb14_ESO

SilverBride wrote: »

IMAO it's because tanking isn't fun. Healing either.

Ripping enemies apart is much more fun.

Totally disagree.

Tanking and healing is much more fun for me than DPS'ing.

SilverBride

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

IMAO it's because tanking isn't fun. Healing either.

Ripping enemies apart is much more fun.

Totally disagree.

Tanking and healing is much more fun for me than DPS'ing.

It obviously isn't for most or there would be a lot more of them.

Athan1

Because of the modern culture. People nowadays want instant unconditional rewards, no patience for the dd's to kill the boss, just nuke asap, no mechanics involved. Also, people want to play selfishly/solo (in an MMORPG), which the DD playstyle allows more than support roles. It's the "if you want it done right do it yourself" mindset. Why rely on others when you can nuke the boss yourself?

etchedpixels

Athan1 wrote: »

Also, people want to play selfishly/solo (in an MMORPG)

I think you'll find a lot of them actually want to play an Elder Scrolls solo game but there won't be on for another decade, just a Skyrim Extra Remaster Super Gold God They Keep Buying It special edition, with the same bugs as 2014.

One of the myths about tank characters is that they need to suck at DPS. You can build a tank by putting lots into health, but you can also build a good tank by putting lots into magicka or stamina and using a different balance of gear. In fact in U29 that actually seems to work even better than before. Nothing wrong with 64 health 100k health necrotank build but it's not the only way.

You don't even need heavy armour to tank a lot of content or you combine it with jewellery and weapons from a traditionally magicka or stam set. The current templar tanks I use for crystal harvesting are basically a DD build with CP in resists instead, sword/board and some defensive shields and heals slotted. I can heal on the back bar, jab people to death and tank on the front. In fact templar tuirns out to be ideal for this because you can frontbar sword/board and jabs and backbar weapon of choice and healing skills. Warden isn't far behind but you've not got the jabs so you end up having to throw endless birds or similar at targets which isn't so good.

People will say 'oh but if you don't have 45k health then you need sets that don't buff the group' but that turns out to be mostly untrue (you might want one set different only a very low health build) and also the fact you have craploads of magicka means you've got all your skill based buffs and options instead.

The other reason it's a myth for overland stuff is that if you've got about 15 in stamina and some buff skills slotted you can do about 15K/sec single target dps on a warden at least, and up to 50-60K/sec dps on groups. You just need to wear a good choice of medium proc sets and a monster helm they will proc.

amm7sb14_ESO

etchedpixels wrote: »

Athan1 wrote: »

Also, people want to play selfishly/solo (in an MMORPG)

I think you'll find a lot of them actually want to play an Elder Scrolls solo game but there won't be on for another decade, just a Skyrim Extra Remaster Super Gold God They Keep Buying It special edition, with the same bugs as 2014.

One of the myths about tank characters is that they need to suck at DPS. You can build a tank by putting lots into health, but you can also build a good tank by putting lots into magicka or stamina and using a different balance of gear. In fact in U29 that actually seems to work even better than before. Nothing wrong with 64 health 100k health necrotank build but it's not the only way.

You don't even need heavy armour to tank a lot of content or you combine it with jewellery and weapons from a traditionally magicka or stam set. The current templar tanks I use for crystal harvesting are basically a DD build with CP in resists instead, sword/board and some defensive shields and heals slotted. I can heal on the back bar, jab people to death and tank on the front. In fact templar tuirns out to be ideal for this because you can frontbar sword/board and jabs and backbar weapon of choice and healing skills. Warden isn't far behind but you've not got the jabs so you end up having to throw endless birds or similar at targets which isn't so good.

People will say 'oh but if you don't have 45k health then you need sets that don't buff the group' but that turns out to be mostly untrue (you might want one set different only a very low health build) and also the fact you have craploads of magicka means you've got all your skill based buffs and options instead.

The other reason it's a myth for overland stuff is that if you've got about 15 in stamina and some buff skills slotted you can do about 15K/sec single target dps on a warden at least, and up to 50-60K/sec dps on groups. You just need to wear a good choice of medium proc sets and a monster helm they will proc.

Are you able to run trials with that?

I love to see builds off the meta work in vet group content.

SilverBride

Athan1 wrote: »

people want to play selfishly/solo (in an MMORPG)

Selfish? People play to have fun, and they have every right to play any way they choose. They do not have to play a class they don't enjoy so someone else can have fun instead of them. Expecting them to do so is selfish IMAO.

The fact that this is an MMOROG does not obligate anyone to any other player. All that means is that multiple people are playing at the same time.

etchedpixels

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Are you able to run trials with that?

I love to see builds off the meta work in vet group content.

Vet dungeons yes - never really got into or done much with trials. That said it's a lot less useful to be able to deal damage in a vet dungeon as tank because if your DDs suck that much you aren't going to make it up alone, and you'd at least hope to get a real healer. In normals you can mostly DD with a good group and you can carry the group if need be, or fill in the holes if you've got low levels or inexperienced players.

Matchimus

Not everybody has the skills to work in management.

Vanya

Short answer: Damage dealing is faster, more "fun" popular ,lazy, cooler skills,grind,speed, Combat DPS classes are more attractive and will usually provide great enterainment. Long answer: See short answer or add your own.

Tanking in MMO or a tank class is slower and has greater responsibility to take own boss and everyone blames on tank etc

Mayhap in ESO it requires special build and investment I am not sure, but DPS ,by Stars! Yea. Tanking for me is not much of a thrill. I used to be once in other MMO's.

Kiralyn2000

Athan1 wrote: »

Because of the modern culture. People nowadays want instant unconditional rewards blah blah blah

Like I said, there were "omg, there's no tanks, everyone's DPS, queues take forever!" complaints 15 years ago in WoW.

This is nothing new in MMOs. At least once you got past the era of "you need to group to do anything beyond the intro".

Alaztor91

It's no surprise when you take into consideration that like 90+% of the PvE content in game can be done with a DPS character, just requiring you to switch a few DPS skills for healing/mitigation skills.

TheUndeadAmulet

I've played all three roles in ESO - Tank, Healer and DPS - My three main characters right now are a PvE Tank, Healer and DPS. I mostly PUG because I don't play very often anymore and finding a group of people to do stuff with is difficult for me.

Compared to pugging as a DPS or Healer, pugging as a tank is like a gamble. How long is the dungeon going to last? Are you going to be able to finish the dungeon? Is it gonna be a slog or is it going to be fun? The answers to most of the questions are based, primarily, on if the DPS are good; can the group deal good damage? Unfortunately, the chance of rolling a group with good dps that know what they are doing and a group with low dps is fairly even. Why would I take the chance when I can play as a tank or healer and be guaranteed some decent damage?

An Example: The double keys bonus for BC2 is that three daedroth must be alive when Rilis dies. When I last pugged BC2 on my tank, I ended up holding 10+ daedroths at once because group DPS was so pitifully low. I didn't even get double keys because BC2 wasn't the pledge for the day

MalEducado

TheUndeadAmulet wrote: »

I've played all three roles in ESO - Tank, Healer and DPS - My three main characters right now are a PvE Tank, Healer and DPS. I mostly PUG because I don't play very often anymore and finding a group of people to do stuff with is difficult for me.

Compared to pugging as a DPS or Healer, pugging as a tank is like a gamble. How long is the dungeon going to last? Are you going to be able to finish the dungeon? Is it gonna be a slog or is it going to be fun? The answers to most of the questions are based, primarily, on if the DPS are good; can the group deal good damage? Unfortunately, the chance of rolling a group with good dps that know what they are doing and a group with low dps is fairly even. Why would I take the chance when I can play as a tank or healer and be guaranteed some decent damage?

An Example: The double keys bonus for BC2 is that three daedroth must be alive when Rilis dies. When I last pugged BC2 on my tank, I ended up holding 10+ daedroths at once because group DPS was so pitifully low. I didn't even get double keys because BC2 wasn't the pledge for the day

im familiar with that... clasicc moments

VoidCommander

EpicHero wrote: »

There should be a DPS test you need to perform before you can PUG veteran dungeons.

People do less DPS then a tank, and queue up for vet dungeons... And then they take 2 hours for a dungeon that's supposed to be 15/20 minutes, wasting everyone's time.

Oddly enough, having dps requirements to do certain content could actually be a good motivator for players to become tanks and healers, thus supplying the demand for those support roles, and leaving the dps spots open for people who care enough about the game to not suck.

SilverBride

VoidCommander wrote: »

Oddly enough, having dps requirements to do certain content could actually be a good motivator for players to become tanks and healers, thus supplying the demand for those support roles, and leaving the dps spots open for people who care enough about the game to not suck.

Absolutely not. It's bad enough that players impose their standards on others. If the game imposes dps requirements to even participate in certain content, or play a certain role, you will have anarchy on your hands followed by a mass exodus.

By your standards I may suck, but you can't claim I don't care about the game. I love this game and by my standards I succeed at my goal, which is to have fun and relax.

Grandchamp1989

VoidCommander wrote: »

EpicHero wrote: »

There should be a DPS test you need to perform before you can PUG veteran dungeons.

People do less DPS then a tank, and queue up for vet dungeons... And then they take 2 hours for a dungeon that's supposed to be 15/20 minutes, wasting everyone's time.

Oddly enough, having dps requirements to do certain content could actually be a good motivator for players to become tanks and healers, thus supplying the demand for those support roles, and leaving the dps spots open for people who care enough about the game to not suck.

I love this idea. Everyone want to do Vet content but few want to put in the work.
Normal trial and dungeons are for people who don't care. You're not a vet dd if you do 10k dps simple as that.
Then you got 3 options:

1. Learn a rotation and stop wearing beginner green armor
2. Help the community out by making a Tank or Healer
3. Stay in normal were 10k is perfectly fine damage

This games puts people into content they aren't ready for. I blame Zos for that.

SeaArcanist

from my experience the tank has more responsibility. generally people look to the tank to memories the tactics/strategy of the dungeon's. as well as being responsible for making sure sombody is hit and having to explain these mechanics to the other player.

same can be said for healer too. usually its tank or healer who takes charge of the group.

dps just kinda listen, do what they;re told, and hit things. and blame tank/healer when they die.

SeaArcanist

oh a side note tanks are also repsonsible for group buffs to some extent. or sacrificing their damage to buff group with an armor set. on top of trying to do the minimum damame as a tank so they "pull their weight". with all those factors, as a tank, it becomes more of a task. where as if you're an end game dps your path is clear as to what sets to use, and arguably have some freedom of choice. a tank is forced to not only worry about his dps, but debuffs, buffing players. etc. all while juggling in some hits o nthe boss while aggroing and doing the majority of mechanics

ThorianB

MalEducado wrote: »

some ppl say cause you cant share the archievements, but the question is focusing in terms of matchmaking and the how its hard to find tanks, but how it hards to find a competente tank ... the key is in this clip , in my opinion, this guy is a main tank, has a lot of guides, and he did all content in our lovely game...


enjoy yourself

https://clips.twitch.tv/LovelyImpossibleAlmondKeyboardCat-p2v9NQf0-K2OrS2u

I almost exclusively play tanks and heals in other MMOs because i enjoy the roles. I find those roles to be exhausting and just tedious boredum in ESO. Healing feels very generic and bland. Tanking, when you do it "right" is akin to being a busy body paper shuffler. You spend a lot of time micromanaging your character to complete the most basic of tasks.

I have heals and tanks in ESO that i run PUGS with. I can do 1 dungeon on a tank a night and that is it. I am wore out. I can get 2, if they aren't to long, out of heals before i get bored and my mind wonders. In other MMOS i could grind dungeons as either for hours.

ZOS tried to reinevent MMO roles and it just didn't turn out well, imo. Everyone plays DD because the other two roles in this game suck to play.

AyaDark

To start with:
It is not Danguans are not suitable for support roles !

It is BAD supports who are just no need !

And to just think that you must be welcome only becouse play like spam mutagen all the time must be welcomed anywhere is strange for normal player.

Good players can not count on healer. 99% of themheal such bad - that if you will not put self heals you will be just dead.

Tank is not SUPPORT to start with.

It already have its name of the role -TANK- not a support.

And just think that you watch some popular Streamer and his builds, that was trained to some vDLCs, will make you good healer or tank - NO ! It do not work like that.

Why do you think Healers and Tanks must work like that ?

Becouse you se it on some popular streem video ?

You have option to be needed. You just do not want to use it.

The same for DD, that are dead 99% of time for anything. Some small add did AOE - 3 dead bodys that want ebon and more dps sets for them.

With ebon - the same 3 dead bodys ask for some thing else.

Tank is not interested in such play - thank you !

Thats why tank will not go with randoms if he has good DD friends.

And now TANKS even can not T- Bag !!!

So all the way you will suffer for nothing !

All this dead no living thingth will tell you how you need to play, and you evencan not T-Bag it. What is the reason for tank to go random party ?

First of ALL we need option LEGALLY T-Bag such players !

And not affraid of "harrasment".

They do "harrasment", T-Bags just show them their place !!!