why there are a lot of dds instead of tanks?

AyaDark

And i DO not even Talk about low DPS groups, where people try their best and listen.

I tell about self important DDs+Healers, that say that TANK is support. And learn them how to play.

I can solo they newer can pass without me.

But such self important, always know better what others need to do.

What is the reason to help them ?

I better do not get reward my self and leave, than help such people.

Once i ask party who kill boss 10 minutes - will you already kill it ???

They say sorry. I do all dunguan with them and say nothing bad to them !
Because they are sorry ! They really try.

They do not say that you are not good support for yheir dps on tank !

But once i was sad to support their dps in the same situation. T-baged them do leave from the group !

But now i even do not have such option - "harrasment".

But play with such people is - "OK"

They wipe the group - "its OK, you just need to better support them"

It is you who is bad ! Not them ! They really think so.

Newer help anymore to such people !

Attitude is very important !

And I say it before. Tank do not feel respect to randoms, to community - because such attitude for them for years !

Help ? I will help friends, people who do try their best.

But i will not help to toxic -"you are support to our dps" players.

Want tanks ? Change attitude to them !

tc91101

Athan1 wrote: »

Because of the modern culture. People nowadays want instant unconditional rewards, no patience for the dd's to kill the boss, just nuke asap, no mechanics involved. Also, people want to play selfishly/solo (in an MMORPG), which the DD playstyle allows more than support roles. It's the "if you want it done right do it yourself" mindset. Why rely on others when you can nuke the boss yourself?

That has to be the funniest thing I've read all day. It's a video game that people do for fun. Interjecting ideas like "modern culture" and "selfishly/solo" is ludicrous. There are literally people starving or worse in this world.

AyaDark

Selfish solo is bad for them.

They just want all people on earth do all for them, just becouse they want it.

And it is not selfish !

Nice difinition for selfish and not selfish !

SilverBride

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I love this idea. Everyone want to do Vet content but few want to put in the work.
Normal trial and dungeons are for people who don't care. You're not a vet dd if you do 10k dps simple as that.
Then you got 3 options:

1. Learn a rotation and stop wearing beginner green armor
2. Help the community out by making a Tank or Healer
3. Stay in normal were 10k is perfectly fine damage

This games puts people into content they aren't ready for. I blame Zos for that.

1. First of all, not everyone wants to do vet content. I know I couldn't care less about it because I don't want my game to turn into a job of always chasing the bis gear and changing rotations etc. And I am far from the only one.

2. Second, you can't guilt people to play a class they don't want to "help the community".

3. Third, if someone does want to play vet content but doesn't meet your standards don't queue for randoms and you won't have to play with them.

The game doesn't put anyone anywhere. People play how they want and where they want. You can't blame ZoS because they give you the option to only group with people you know play how you do. This is one of the major functions of a guild. If you choose to queue instead of utilizing this then all the blame is on you.

The real answer to the problem is to make tanks and heals more fun and rewarding. Locking dps out of content will only leave you with an empty server.

AyaDark

SilverBride wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

I love this idea. Everyone want to do Vet content but few want to put in the work.
Normal trial and dungeons are for people who don't care. You're not a vet dd if you do 10k dps simple as that.
Then you got 3 options:

1. Learn a rotation and stop wearing beginner green armor
2. Help the community out by making a Tank or Healer
3. Stay in normal were 10k is perfectly fine damage

This games puts people into content they aren't ready for. I blame Zos for that.

1. First of all, not everyone wants to do vet content. I know I couldn't care less about it because I don't want my game to turn into a job of always chasing the bis gear and changing rotations etc. And I am far from the only one.

2. Second, you can't guilt people to play a class they don't want to "help the community".

3. Third, if someone does want to play vet content but doesn't meet your standards don't queue for randoms and you won't have to play with them.

The game doesn't put anyone anywhere. People play how they want and where they want. You can't blame ZoS because they give you the option to only group with people you know play how you do. This is one of the major functions of a guild. If you choose to queue instead of utilizing this then all the blame is on you.

The real answer to the problem is to make tanks and heals more fun and rewarding. Locking dps out of content will only leave you with an empty server.

Normals easely pass with fake tanks.

So it is not even a problem or is it?

Tanks really are needed in hard hiting HMs and it is not simple task !

And with good group it is OK, it is fun.

People have to respect tank choise, if he do his main task.

Tank is not a support ! Some times healer is !

But tank is a tank and nothing more.

And if you want Tank do DPS and support, first do support him, tank some adds and do you main task good.

Only than ask tank for support.

I do not ask, becouse i have conscience.

Epilog

EpicHero wrote: »

There should be a DPS test you need to perform before you can PUG veteran dungeons.

In "The Secret World" (the original, not that legends crap) they actually had this. A NPC Gatekeeper for every role that was a pure DPS/HPS/Tank check to unlock the harder modes of dungeons. They could implement the same in ESO as something like Undaunted mentor quests or something.

(TSW had also more variety in gameplay and what was needed for each dungeon, which made the tank role a lot more interessing....and taxing...but also more rewarding and able for bragging rights...leech/interupt/glasscannon-tank anyone?^^)

SilverBride

Epilog wrote: »

In "The Secret World" (the original, not that legends crap) they actually had this. A NPC Gatekeeper for every role that was a pure DPS/HPS/Tank check to unlock the harder modes of dungeons.

WoW had something similar, too, but for all classes. It failed and they dropped it.

If you want people to play tank and heal make it fun.

Vevvev

Tanking is just not fun in ESO. You can be the best tank in ESO and you'll be at mercy of your DPS's ability to DPS.

Tanking is a civil service and something that has to be done, not something many people choose to do because it's fun.... because it's not. Tank mains in ESO have to have the patience of a saint to stick with that role for so long.

Aznarb

MissAethe wrote: »

Honestly, what Grand above me said and then some other personal experience/opinions.

When you run as a tank, you expect your DPS to burn enemies while you hold them, and you expect the healer to keep everyone alive. Yet what I've came across in every instance of groupfinder I've bothered with, is either the healer isn't actually a healer but is a third DPS, or, the DPS keep using their own taunts on the bosses, so I end up having to out-taunt my own teammates. That's super frustrating to deal with and extremely distracting.

The second thing is I've noticed a lot of mixed "schools of thought" about what a tank should and shouldn't be. Some argue a tank has to be a team support only: their gear should provide group healing, group shielding, etc always and above anything else. Others say that you can provide that in your skills so gear doesn't matter nearly as much as what your techniques are. A third say a mix of both is ideal.

What I've ran into and what is extremely frustrating to me personally, is the lack of wiggle room in this. I'm running a Warden ice-tank, my entire build is on debuffing the snot out of enemies and keeping them locked in on chilled status constantly (minor brittle at 100% upkeep for instance). Everything I do provides everything my team needs, I even have a healing Ult and skill slotted as well to heal when my healer isn't keeping up (or isn't a healer to begin with). The gear I'm running at the moment isn't optimized, it's trash combo junk I've picked up but gives me some nice buffs as well, but I stay at 52k HP at my current set up. That's a LOT of health for a non-geared tank, on top of all of the buffs I give and debuffs I apply in skills. It's not meta by any sense of the word, but it absolutely works and I've had no issues running (I've completely the majority of my dungeon runs with one DPS and that's it, to make a point).

But the moment you start talking sets with people, I get hit immediately with "oh, you can't run that tank because you're not wearing -insert specific gear here-". I've been told, straight up, that my tanking was amazing at the end of a vet run only to be told that, "well actually you could've done a lot better if you were wearing..." when asked what gear I had on post-no-death run. It doesn't matter that we got through the dungeon without a hitch, it doesn't matter that we sailed smooth without issues, what suddenly matters is I'm not wearing whatever equipment a person is convinced I should be wearing because someone else told them that's all you can wear.

Overall, I LOVE to tank in this game, but I get extremely frustrated when people start claiming sets override skill, and that I need to have certain gear to be mechanically sound (no, being mechanically sound is how you're mechanically sound). I grasp that running vet trials and serious end-game that you want to max out your support with key sets, I do, but constantly being put down for not having The Optimized Build when I'm tanking vet in trash, is super super annoying.

As a healer, I'll join you on this.
To much peoplke speak about meta w/o any knowledge of what is a meta, when and where it's efficient and WHY it's efficient.
Meta is "better" that doesn't mean that other set are trash, not at all, you can clear this game with so much combo of gear..

Avalon

I’d like to make a very important comment about some elitism I’m seeing in this discussion...

Saying that if you only have 10-15k DPS, you need to go back to normals... sorry, but that’s pretty elitist. I’ve been playing off and on since the game came out, and due to lack of friends playing until recently, stuck to normal stuff (I didn’t feel ready for veteran content by myself, and a lot of times get kicked).

The problem is that I’ve had gold gear, purple gear, etc, tried various rotations and builds, classes and races, etc etc. and NEVER got over 12k DPS until I started doing veteran stuff and getting monster sets, and stuff I never could get in normals fo4 some reason (plus trials and such).

Now, my DPS is up to over 20k. Probably still not great for vet content... but, progression is the name of the game, can’t just boot people because they’re not perfectly up to snuff. They need that introductory level of vet stuff, and the harder dungeons (where even on normal, people seem to treat it as vet-level and kick you if they think you aren’t high enough DPS even on NORMAL).

So, kind of chill on that... be more understanding and all. But, I agree fake tanks n healers sucks. Been on the receiving end of that way too often as my tank (bad DPS claiming healer, but not... and low DPS, too)

Contaminate

Because dps is the default and dps can get carried.

The ratio of GOOD dps to tanks and healers is much less severe

amm7sb14_ESO

Vevvev wrote: »

Tanking is just not fun in ESO. You can be the best tank in ESO and you'll be at mercy of your DPS's ability to DPS.

Tanking is a civil service and something that has to be done, not something many people choose to do because it's fun.... because it's not. Tank mains in ESO have to have the patience of a saint to stick with that role for so long.

I choose to do it because it's fun. The biggest enjoyment I get out of this game is tanking vet dungeons and trials.

Being *told* how to tank and having specific gear or bar setups demanded and imposed on me is not fun, and I refuse to build my tanks in a way that others demand, but the aspect of tanking itself is very enjoyable for me.

Nastassiya

So I am a tank and I get insta queues, when I decide to join a random pug, in a random queue. Normally I do not join a random because I get a fair amount of toxic groups. People generally expect me to know the higher end dungeons and boss mechanics. I do not know these because I am married with a full time career. Being told that I should know these fights, from a DPS that doesn't have the role of keeping agro, maneuvering the boss, and trying to also manage adds so the healer lives, is a pita when you don't have a group that isn't willing to spend 2 minutes to explain the fire.

Contaminate

Nastassiya wrote: »

So I am a tank and I get insta queues, when I decide to join a random pug, in a random queue. Normally I do not join a random because I get a fair amount of toxic groups. People generally expect me to know the higher end dungeons and boss mechanics. I do not know these because I am married with a full time career. Being told that I should know these fights, from a DPS that doesn't have the role of keeping agro, maneuvering the boss, and trying to also manage adds so the healer lives, is a pita when you don't have a group that isn't willing to spend 2 minutes to explain the fire.

If the dps are decent, tossing up a comment about not knowing the dungeon in group should get at least a cursory explanation of each boss fight. People generally don’t want to fail their run because the tank’s running in blind.

RebornV3x

It simply comes down to dps is king in eso as a tank your at the mercy of your dps as a dps I feel as if I can control the fights better if you have 2 bad dps it doesn't matter how good you tank your screwed and this is one reason why people don't tank that really hasn't been mentioned here.

DreamsUnderStars

My opinion: tanking in this game isn't fun.

Scardan

DreamsUnderStars wrote: »

My opinion: tanking in this game isn't fun.

On forums, people complain about every role. I especially like those who are afraid of carries. They always write in such a way that it turns out they did not help someone and therefore should be happy, but this dude sat on their neck, drove into their apartment and tells them to go and earn money for his new Iphone. Freaking dramatic.

I'm exaggerating a little, but you get the idea xD
Some games manage to make tanks do damage with their skills (they are burst damage oriented and DDs do DPS) but you see what people think about tanks with burst damage in PvP x).

Sarannah

I love tanking, and would tank more if we had dual spec.

zaria

cynicalbutterfly wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

The reason why we see more DPS is because tanks are terrible for questing overland. And in groupcontent, we are often blamed when something goes wrong. I once got kicked from a group at a DPS check boss, that is how strange tanking sometimes is.

Now personally I love tanking, as it is much more dynamic than just having a rotation. You have to see/feel the environment and group, and respond to that. As a pure tank I actually love it when the healer is just an off-healer, and more of a DPS. As a pure tank I can survive a lot, and the extra DPS makes dungeons faster. This makes almost all my runs smooth.

Tanking by no means is boring, it is actually quite intense. If you are only standing still in fights, and find boss fights long, you are doing something wrong. So far I've only had about a handful of bad DPS groups. I also do not follow the tank meta or best sets, I use my own and build the tank around that. Same as I do with my DPS.

With the buff to pure tanks this CP 2.0, it is even more fun. Although I can only do so many runs, as it is quite exhausting to always be aware. Then I just log in a DPS character and do some relaxing overland.

As a pure healer, I love when take is fake tank most of the time. Dungeon design just sucks for support roles....

I'm not a pure healer but I find that I really don't care if the tank is fake or not. I really don't even care if the dps aren't giving out high damage. Important part is whether or not we can finish and if we can then nothing else matters. I'll keep everyone alive and buffed as much as I can to get the job done xD

On another note, I have never done a tank role. It just feels like they're all under way too much pressure in a dungeon. It really shouldn't be that way tbh. The tank should be able to tank the way he/she wants and not what someone else expects. Same goes for dps and healers.

I'm as pure healer as needed, one fun build I have on magplar is mother sorrow, SPC front bar, maelstrom staff and zaan.
have extended ritual up and Ritual of Rebirth as emergency heal, if people need more healing I use an resto staff.
Combat prayer and lots more HoT. But yes one of the reasons I dislike fake tanks is that most of them do tank level dps.
None would complain about an fake tank if they did 30K dps.
Seriously lots of pvp builds could tank standard vet dungeons as real tanks and do decent dps on top, I want the tower trolls to tank dungeons instead

fiftypercentgrey

I love playing a tank.
It is a common misconception that it is the tank who needs to know the mechanics and everything. It is is everyone. And if someone does not know them, they should speak up so the mechanics can be explained. I hate ending up with 2 DDs who just want to be carried through the dungeon, blaming everyone else for their own shortcomings.

SammyKhajit

Tried tanking. Questing etc is fun, takes a lot of damage. But very unfair when it comes to events when you have to deal the most damages etc to get gold boxes from WBs.

AyaDark

Aznarb wrote: »

MissAethe wrote: »

Honestly, what Grand above me said and then some other personal experience/opinions.

When you run as a tank, you expect your DPS to burn enemies while you hold them, and you expect the healer to keep everyone alive. Yet what I've came across in every instance of groupfinder I've bothered with, is either the healer isn't actually a healer but is a third DPS, or, the DPS keep using their own taunts on the bosses, so I end up having to out-taunt my own teammates. That's super frustrating to deal with and extremely distracting.

The second thing is I've noticed a lot of mixed "schools of thought" about what a tank should and shouldn't be. Some argue a tank has to be a team support only: their gear should provide group healing, group shielding, etc always and above anything else. Others say that you can provide that in your skills so gear doesn't matter nearly as much as what your techniques are. A third say a mix of both is ideal.

What I've ran into and what is extremely frustrating to me personally, is the lack of wiggle room in this. I'm running a Warden ice-tank, my entire build is on debuffing the snot out of enemies and keeping them locked in on chilled status constantly (minor brittle at 100% upkeep for instance). Everything I do provides everything my team needs, I even have a healing Ult and skill slotted as well to heal when my healer isn't keeping up (or isn't a healer to begin with). The gear I'm running at the moment isn't optimized, it's trash combo junk I've picked up but gives me some nice buffs as well, but I stay at 52k HP at my current set up. That's a LOT of health for a non-geared tank, on top of all of the buffs I give and debuffs I apply in skills. It's not meta by any sense of the word, but it absolutely works and I've had no issues running (I've completely the majority of my dungeon runs with one DPS and that's it, to make a point).

But the moment you start talking sets with people, I get hit immediately with "oh, you can't run that tank because you're not wearing -insert specific gear here-". I've been told, straight up, that my tanking was amazing at the end of a vet run only to be told that, "well actually you could've done a lot better if you were wearing..." when asked what gear I had on post-no-death run. It doesn't matter that we got through the dungeon without a hitch, it doesn't matter that we sailed smooth without issues, what suddenly matters is I'm not wearing whatever equipment a person is convinced I should be wearing because someone else told them that's all you can wear.

Overall, I LOVE to tank in this game, but I get extremely frustrated when people start claiming sets override skill, and that I need to have certain gear to be mechanically sound (no, being mechanically sound is how you're mechanically sound). I grasp that running vet trials and serious end-game that you want to max out your support with key sets, I do, but constantly being put down for not having The Optimized Build when I'm tanking vet in trash, is super super annoying.

As a healer, I'll join you on this.
To much peoplke speak about meta w/o any knowledge of what is a meta, when and where it's efficient and WHY it's efficient.
Meta is "better" that doesn't mean that other set are trash, not at all, you can clear this game with so much combo of gear..

Meta newer was better.It us more DPS on dummy about.

Tsar_Gekkou

The average damage is so awful that I couldn't stand tanking for pugs. I'm not even an endgame dps and I still hit harder than most pugs I come across, which is odd. I see cp 810+ people just spamming snipe and maybe a light attack here or there and it hurts my spirit.

CaptainVenom

People feel satisfied when they kill. That is why. Look at how many people around the forums love to post their DPS and build so other be like whoa. It's related to ego (and to the basic objetive in a MMO: kill things and get a reward).

AyaDark

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

The average damage is so awful that I couldn't stand tanking for pugs. I'm not even an endgame dps and I still hit harder than most pugs I come across, which is odd. I see cp 810+ people just spamming snipe and maybe a light attack here or there and it hurts my spirit.

DPS is simple.

You do not need even LA for it.

People just do not understand basiks and META promoters do it such way,that a lot of people can not normally play.

How to do DPS ?

You can use 4 proc sets.
2 pannel with enchants

If each set hit 3k, each glyph hit 3k - you need to press 2 buttons each 10 seconds to get 20 k DPS. To proc all of this.

And you just need spam any 1 direct skill to get 10 more = 30 k DPS.

It is simple logick.

The same for LA snipe - 30 k dps rotation with good wpd.

https://youtu.be/l3AD7GH2LF4

But META promoters do it the way it sounds difficult to new players. They can not get how to do it - they do not understand basicks, that no one tells them !

Because if they do understand it, META would be no need !

Scardan

Tanks, what about damage of Power Bash? It deals actually more damage than brawler and I have used brawler as spammable and things died quick in overland. And in normal dungeons. Power Slam looks like good for questing and solo gameplay on paper. It looks very tasty, actually. Every block increases your damage, every use of this skill increases its damage up to 50%, looks like good spamable.

AyaDark

Scardan wrote: »

Tanks, what about damage of Power Bash? It deals actually more damage than brawler and I have used brawler as spammable and things died quick in overland. And in normal dungeons. Power Slam looks like good for questing and solo gameplay on paper. It looks very tasty, actually. Every block increases your damage, every use of this skill increases its damage up to 50%, looks like good spamable.

Than try it

But i do not see it as some thing good.

Brawler is really good ability.

BejaProphet

@Avalon I think it is fair to say somebody isn’t really a damage dealer until they start doing DPS that a tank and healer can not match.

People call out fake tanks and fake healers. But are you really filling the roll of DD when you are failing to bring a unique level if damage to the group?

I’m not talking crazy numbers. 20k is plenty to qualify. But there is a good reason that I would say 10k does not count. It is because your tank is likely doing that much. I don’t mean hybrid kind of tank. I mean the dude in something like Ebon alkosh with sword and shield with two hand back bar.

A tank becomes a tank when they do the job of tanking.

A healer becomes a healer when they do the job of healing.

A damage dealer becomes a damage dealer when they do their job by bringing a level of damage that surpasses what support classes do.

I think saying such a notion is elitist is unfair.

Scardan

AyaDark wrote: »

Scardan wrote: »

Tanks, what about damage of Power Bash? It deals actually more damage than brawler and I have used brawler as spammable and things died quick in overland. And in normal dungeons. Power Slam looks like good for questing and solo gameplay on paper. It looks very tasty, actually. Every block increases your damage, every use of this skill increases its damage up to 50%, looks like good spamable.

Than try it

But i do not see it as some thing good.

Brawler is really good ability.

I will, but I would like to hear other people opinions about it.
Also I am obsessed with the idea of two handed tank/DD, like in old school mmorpgs.

Avalon

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Avalon I think it is fair to say somebody isn’t really a damage dealer until they start doing DPS that a tank and healer can not match.

People call out fake tanks and fake healers. But are you really filling the roll of DD when you are failing to bring a unique level if damage to the group?

I’m not talking crazy numbers. 20k is plenty to qualify. But there is a good reason that I would say 10k does not count. It is because your tank is likely doing that much. I don’t mean hybrid kind of tank. I mean the dude in something like Ebon alkosh with sword and shield with two hand back bar.

A tank becomes a tank when they do the job of tanking.

A healer becomes a healer when they do the job of healing.

A damage dealer becomes a damage dealer when they do their job by bringing a level of damage that surpasses what support classes do.

I think saying such a notion is elitist is unfair.

Well, we should probably start with your notion of tanks and eaters doing over 10k DPS, then? Again, elitism to think tanks pulling 10-20k (same with healers), I’d almost start thinking they weren’t doing their ‘claimed’ jobs, and are instead going with the ‘but did you die?’ Way of reasoning to prove they did their job. At that point, 4 DPS could claim they had a tank and healer, since they each had a way to heal themselves, and one even threw inner fire on their bar... yay tank!

But, no. There are stages in progression where tanks and eaters are only doing 5-10k. So, again, the premise is ‘if we have really good, well-equipped, tanks and healers... can the shabbily equipped guy who has only been doing normals claim he’s really a DPS?’ When the tanks and healers are equipped the same, etc... they don’t do that sort of DPS, either.

Or, are we saying that until you grind out a ton of champion points, you can’t progress to veteran? Because those goal posts move pretty often. Used to be ok to do vets with a lot less, and now it seems people are implying a level of around 400-810. Will that change to needing over 1200, or something else? Sounds like elitism... not actually requiring people do their actual jobs... but, that they do them well enough to make fights take next to zero time.

If so, that’s not just elitism, it’s an issue of patience - they don’t want to deal with slow fights due to people not being awesome yet.