Clarification: how is CP getting translated over?

Sju

furiouslog wrote: »

Sju wrote: »

You earned the experience for the cp you have now. Can you or someone please give a legitimate reasoning for why you think you earned more cp than you already have without doing any work? Because I still haven't seen a good argument for it

I could give you the wage analogy, or the vma weapons analogy, but we all know it'll just be another argument trying to convince us it is wrong, even though it is the same exact thing.

I think I've provided a good argument, but you'll have to go back a few posts and check it out.

No, I don't think you did, otherwise I wouldn't have repeated these facts.

furiouslog

Sju wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

Sju wrote: »

You earned the experience for the cp you have now. Can you or someone please give a legitimate reasoning for why you think you earned more cp than you already have without doing any work? Because I still haven't seen a good argument for it

I could give you the wage analogy, or the vma weapons analogy, but we all know it'll just be another argument trying to convince us it is wrong, even though it is the same exact thing.

I think I've provided a good argument, but you'll have to go back a few posts and check it out.

No, I don't think you did, otherwise I wouldn't have repeated these facts.

As I've pointed out, a new CP does not equal an old CP. Therefore, they are not comparable. What is comparable is your stats. If you can't replicate your stats with your transferable CP (setting aside trade-offs in the new tree), then skills and abilities you already earned have to be re-earned via XP grind. That's not fair. Counterpoint?

ApoAlaia

Sju wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Sju wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

They didn't do this when they increased the max to 810. Why would they do it now?

Are you also saying to give 360 CP to people with 500 CP? Because I assume that even they were acquiring CP at a slower rate that they will after the update. Every time they increased the CP cap, it moved the curve of XP needed to acquire CP. Obviously we should not give such a boost to those of us with 810+ CP while not giving it to someone with 500 CP who also had slower CP accumulation pre-patch.

I am suspicious of anyone only talking about what boon can be given to 810+ CP players.

I don't want a boon, per se, although I think CP earned should stay earned. I just don't want a detriment.

Me neither; I wasn't after a boon, I wasn't asking to be awarded unearned experience, I wanted my legitimately accrued experience to apply to the heavily revised requirements.

Alas according to the developers the experience I have accrued over the past few years is somehow lesser in quality than the one that will be awarded moving forward thus needing significantly more of it to qualify for the same [CP].

But you are absolutely asking for unearned experience.

I really have no idea how you reach that conclusion. I qualify for the CP I have because I have earned the experience required to qualify for the CP I have.

Care to elaborate?

You earned the experience for the cp you have now. Can you or someone please give a legitimate reasoning for why you think you earned more cp than you already have without doing any work? Because I still haven't seen a good argument for it

I could give you the wage analogy, or the vma weapons analogy, but we all know it'll just be another argument trying to convince us it is wrong, even though it is the same exact thing.

If you want to make a 'real world' analogy to illustrate your point you could try one with experience.

As in the experience required to get chartered as a civil engineer, or to get offered a partnership on a legal firm for instance.

There are many 'real world' scenarios where you need 'x' experience to qualify for 'y'.

Either way I have accrued exactly the amount of experience required to qualify for my current CP, no more, no less.

Come Monday that amount of experience would qualify someone for a significantly higher CP yet I will remain exactly the same CP I am today.

Hence saying that according to the developers the experience I have accrued until this point is of significantly lesser quality than the experience that will be awarded from Monday on.

trackdemon5512

furiouslog wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Perhaps it’s better to think in the terms “end of life”. Every game seemingly has an EOL point where it all creatively ends. Maybe the game persists but development ends on it. Now who knows where we are in ESO’s finite life but each year we edge closer to the end.

That said there is no way you can attract new players if they can’t catch up to the current base. Sure the current base has played more and earned more but if things stay the same you have players that will never ever catch up to them.

Great point, but I have two counterpoints:

1. I don't think that nerfing veteran players existing stats and capabilities significantly in the name of closing the gap is equitable and fair to people who have already been supporting their game. It's too great of a cost with little benefit in extending EOL. In my case, under the example solution I provided, I'd get 1660 CP instead of 1300 CP. That's plenty of space for my characters o grow, and it does not put me so far ahead of new players that they can't catch up under the new XP curve. I still would have spent more XP to get to that level then they will.

2. The game is more popular than it's ever been (part of the reason they are probably improving accessibility - check Steamcharts), which is encouraging for EOL - and an additional reason why fully invested players who obviously want to continue playing should not get nerfed, especially given the amount of horizontal progression currently available to them and possibly in the future as they continue to make changes.

You made additional points about elitism. Sharing my experience, I agree, but the CP system won't fix that. A friend and I left an elitist guild and started our own with the intent of helping new players who wanted to progress move up and get to veteran content. We started almost a year ago, and we launched our first home-grown prog group last week, which is awesome. But, it's also a long time. I get that. Yet, if I wake up on Tuesday and can't do the same DPS and survive as well on my magplar anymore as a result of nerfs, I'm not going to want to have to grind for weeks to get where I was. It's a disincentive to stay and keep doing what I do. Some people on my team will have it a lot worse given their current CP, which makes it harder to clear when it's already challenging as is. Does that make sense?

1. The nerf to player stats is all around, not just to veterans. The DPS has gotten out of control with straight burn and the complete ignoring of mechanics in PVE. There are unintentional design exploits that result in increased damage (usually overlooked sets for a patch) and then there are those that creep up. The latter was exemplified by the flaws of CP1.0 at higher levels and is precisely why the cap hasn’t changed in 2.25 years.

The developers aren’t just nerfing you to close gaps between players, they’re doing so because it’s hampering their ability to actually design the game. You can’t develop new experiences and have the bypassed every DLC with players doing insane damage. What else are they to do when those same players complain that the game isn’t a challenge and that one-shot mechanics aren’t fair? The veteran players have to give in order for everyone else, including the devs, to move forward.

2. Yes the game is arguably more popular than ever BUT gaining new players isn’t as important as active retention. New players are a dime a dozen, ask any bot farmer. But players that stay in, add to the community, engage, and most importantly for ZOS subscribe to ESO+ are far far more important. They drive the revenue (and I’m guessing profits) that keep this game going.

Whales exist and are important financially but the cumulative impact of those non-endgame casual players far far exceeds what those whales are capable of. This is precisely why instead of a new class/race the game is getting “companions” this year. It’s about abolishing inequality.

furiouslog

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

1. The nerf to player stats is all around, not just to veterans. The DPS has gotten out of control with straight burn and the complete ignoring of mechanics in PVE. There are unintentional design exploits that result in increased damage (usually overlooked sets for a patch) and then there are those that creep up. The latter was exemplified by the flaws of CP1.0 at higher levels and is precisely why the cap hasn’t changed in 2.25 years.

I acknowledge this need. That nerf is handled already and effectively through forcing tradeoffs, though, not by artificially lowering ability by resetting CP to place equivalent vertical progression at a higher baseline - that should not be the approach. I'm fine with their new design.

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

2. Yes the game is arguably more popular than ever BUT gaining new players isn’t as important as active retention. New players are a dime a dozen, ask any bot farmer. But players that stay in, add to the community, engage, and most importantly for ZOS subscribe to ESO+ are far far more important. They drive the revenue (and I’m guessing profits) that keep this game going.

So shouldn't they be trying to retain me as well? I'm in that cohort. I'm unhappy. What's being done about my retention?

stefj68

i tested 36 differents profiles for my 810cp characters, and i need 350-400cp per tree so 1200cp total to be in the same spot as i was before...

for 10 of my accounts i need 1800cp, those are filling 2 roles, either dps heal or tank... and were spec to do good at those 2 roles... not excellent but good... ya sure i could reallocated my cp each time but at a cost

i already earned the experience to be over 1200cp... according to the new curve... and could be exactly where i want to be at day 1 on 26 of my accounts, if they reconsider xp for vets payed at quadruple cost... or readjustment of the curved by 25% or simple lower cost of each skills lines by 33% before this goes lives...

ive played over 100hours on the pts in last 4 weeks... so i am not throwing up stuff in the air just for fun...

its a vMA 2.0 fiasco in even worst

and since we are limited to 4 perks, per three, having 2400 or 1200 cp won't increase your dps overall so we should not be penalized...

i can't redo all the quest line ive done to rearn those xp lost... so for me its grind all over again... or delete toons and start over...

please reset all quest so we can do them again
or compensate us for the new curved and all those hard earned extra cp cost past 810
and at least
free respect for a year
and 2 race changes token per 8 character you have
or a free 3 months races changes token

end billing done on 2 accounts
thanks ZOS for the journey

tmbrinks

You can spec into both heals and tank on Live right now?

I know when I swapped from healing to tanking on my main, I always had to respec my CP

trackdemon5512

furiouslog wrote: »

So shouldn't they be trying to retain me as well? I'm in that cohort. I'm unhappy. What's being done about my retention?

@furiouslog

Well the hard truth comes down to a numbers game. You are ONE versus the MANY. You've surpassed a point where your technical expertise and knowledge of the game far outmatches other players. But at the same time what is the cost of keeping one (or the few like you) happy versus the larger numbers. You can pay for ESO+ and buy crowns but your buying power is always drastically outmatched by those of the many others.

If I bought a year membership and 21000 crowns that comes out to $300 US. If you quit ZOS loses out on at least $15 a month.

Now compare that to 20 other players who are more casual and do a single month subscription to ESO. In one month they match your yearly amount. In two months they double that. Now expand that to the millions of active account and potential accounts and you can easily see that you may be a large fish but your in an ocean and not a pond, there are plenty of ways to make up your loss.

This is why most game companies won't even chase after twitch streaming stars. Yes they provide publicity but there are plenty of others out there to take up and make up. Deltia left ESO for years after I believe a funeral for their Templar, only coming back to dip their toe this past pts. The game didn't die and easily moved beyond.

It just comes down to that addressing your unhappiness isn't worth not addressing the unhappiness of others.

stefj68 wrote: »

i tested 36 differents profiles for my 810cp characters, and i need 350-400cp per tree so 1200cp total to be in the same spot as i was before...

for 10 of my accounts i need 1800cp, those are filling 2 roles, either dps heal or tank... and were spec to do good at those 2 roles... not excellent but good... ya sure i could reallocated my cp each time but at a cost

i already earned the experience to be over 1200cp... according to the new curve... and could be exactly where i want to be at day 1 on 26 of my accounts, if they reconsider xp for vets payed at quadruple cost... or readjustment of the curved by 25% or simple lower cost of each skills lines by 33% before this goes lives...

ive played over 100hours on the pts in last 4 weeks... so i am not throwing up stuff in the air just for fun...

its a vMA 2.0 fiasco in even worst

and since we are limited to 4 perks, per three, having 2400 or 1200 cp won't increase your dps overall so we should not be penalized...

i can't redo all the quest line ive done to rearn those xp lost... so for me its grind all over again... or delete toons and start over...

please reset all quest so we can do them again
or compensate us for the new curved and all those hard earned extra cp cost past 810
and at least
free respect for a year
and 2 race changes token per 8 character you have
or a free 3 months races changes token

end billing done on 2 accounts
thanks ZOS for the journey

@stefj68 you are an EXTREME OUTLIER. Congrats on that play commitment as I nor many others can match it. But even the developers don't have that many accounts/characters. Yes, cumulatively you may have far more game experience than the vast majority of us but you can't in any way represent the general player that the developers must cater to. As such trying to comply with your request for change tokens and etc just is out of hand from what anyone else really needs. Statistically it sounds cold but in any study of a group we would have to disregard your data as you skew way to the right and well beyond three standard deviations from the center. Using your situations to address large scale change would not help in the long run for the whole.

furiouslog

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

So shouldn't they be trying to retain me as well? I'm in that cohort. I'm unhappy. What's being done about my retention?

@furiouslog

Well the hard truth comes down to a numbers game. You are ONE versus the MANY. You've surpassed a point where your technical expertise and knowledge of the game far outmatches other players. But at the same time what is the cost of keeping one (or the few like you) happy versus the larger numbers. You can pay for ESO+ and buy crowns but your buying power is always drastically outmatched by those of the many others.

If I bought a year membership and 21000 crowns that comes out to $300 US. If you quit ZOS loses out on at least $15 a month.

Now compare that to 20 other players who are more casual and do a single month subscription to ESO. In one month they match your yearly amount. In two months they double that. Now expand that to the millions of active account and potential accounts and you can easily see that you may be a large fish but your in an ocean and not a pond, there are plenty of ways to make up your loss.

This is why most game companies won't even chase after twitch streaming stars. Yes they provide publicity but there are plenty of others out there to take up and make up. Deltia left ESO for years after I believe a funeral for their Templar, only coming back to dip their toe this past pts. The game didn't die and easily moved beyond.

It just comes down to that addressing your unhappiness isn't worth not addressing the unhappiness of others.

So the formula I proposed that I thought was fair was this (this time using Excel):

New CP = if(Old CP<810,truncate((1170/810) * Old CP),(1170 + Old CP - 810))

Whose happiness is reduced under this scenario? Given that it's as mathematically fair as can be, people might still complain about other specifics (e.g. the CP=XP arguers), but they can't argue with the analysis and calculations that have been done to date and how it will affect play and the abilities they've earned in the game.

And this is not just me being unhappy. 80 percent of the forum respondents have weighed in on this negatively one way or the other. People I play with in my guild are outraged, but they're not posting about it. They think I am ridiculous to even try making the point, saying I'm tilting at windmills, but they are still unhappy. So we are clear: I don't mind that new players get many benefits via this new design relative to my prior effort. I understand that point and welcome it in general. The specifics are where I have an issue. We have no way to calculate the number of people that are affected negatively one way or the other and truly angry about it, which is why I proposed giving ZOS feedback in other ways in another thread. ZOS will hopefully have a better understanding of the stake, and I'd prefer they know what it is earlier than later so if it ever has a hope of being addressed, it will get addressed, but I also don't realistically think they will do anything.

Incidentally, I buy more than 21000 crowns per year, I also run a guild that helps new players grow, and we made a pretty decent video for their contest. I'm clearly a fan and supporter of the game despite its flaws. I'm sure that influences the underlying economics of my mentality. Even so I'm aware of my singular contribution relative to the entire player base. It's a decimal of a decimal, but I thought under the circumstances of a fairly broad outpouring of community anger, the favor of a response would be warranted, either by way of clear explanation that addressed the reason behind the frustration, or by implementing a superior solution that maximized consumer satisfaction. Maybe a lot of these other guys who are complaining don't buy crowns.

But the point is moot, really. Like I said, I'm accepting that it's happening and giving it a shot, and if I still can't deal with it after some research, tests, and a cool down period, I'll do what I think is best for me, and feeling exploited and ignored is not going to be any part of that.

In addition, I appreciate the time you are investing to share your perspective, and thanks for trying to change my mind. You and @tmbrinks have, actually, to a point. I think I have listened to you guys throughout this thread and in others, but I seem to be unable to convince anyone who does not already agree with me where I am coming from. I guess I am inadequate at expressing myself.

remosito

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Perhaps it’s better to think in the terms “end of life”. Every game seemingly has an EOL point where it all creatively ends. Maybe the game persists but development ends on it. Now who knows where we are in ESO’s finite life but each year we edge closer to the end.

That said there is no way you can attract new players if they can’t catch up to the current base. Sure the current base has played more and earned more but if things stay the same you have players that will never ever catch up to them.

Great point, but I have two counterpoints:

1. I don't think that nerfing veteran players existing stats and capabilities significantly in the name of closing the gap is equitable and fair to people who have already been supporting their game. It's too great of a cost with little benefit in extending EOL. In my case, under the example solution I provided, I'd get 1660 CP instead of 1300 CP. That's plenty of space for my characters o grow, and it does not put me so far ahead of new players that they can't catch up under the new XP curve. I still would have spent more XP to get to that level then they will.

2. The game is more popular than it's ever been (part of the reason they are probably improving accessibility - check Steamcharts), which is encouraging for EOL - and an additional reason why fully invested players who obviously want to continue playing should not get nerfed, especially given the amount of horizontal progression currently available to them and possibly in the future as they continue to make changes.

You made additional points about elitism. Sharing my experience, I agree, but the CP system won't fix that. A friend and I left an elitist guild and started our own with the intent of helping new players who wanted to progress move up and get to veteran content. We started almost a year ago, and we launched our first home-grown prog group last week, which is awesome. But, it's also a long time. I get that. Yet, if I wake up on Tuesday and can't do the same DPS and survive as well on my magplar anymore as a result of nerfs, I'm not going to want to have to grind for weeks to get where I was. It's a disincentive to stay and keep doing what I do. Some people on my team will have it a lot worse given their current CP, which makes it harder to clear when it's already challenging as is. Does that make sense?

2. Yes the game is arguably more popular than ever BUT gaining new players isn’t as important as active retention. New players are a dime a dozen, ask any bot farmer. But players that stay in, add to the community, engage, and most importantly for ZOS subscribe to ESO+ are far far more important. They drive the revenue (and I’m guessing profits) that keep this game going.

no cp scaling lead me to cancel eso+...

honey_badger82

I have been building up my enlightenment for almost 2 weeks now just logging into my CP level characters just to do crafting writs and collect mail from hirelings. I used the rest of my time to bring up my last 2 characters to CP level.
Anyone know if at least all that built up enlightenment will transfer over? I was hoping it would and because of the new xp curve that it would go much further than right now, I am around 935 currently so well past any curve on live.

trackdemon5512

remosito wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Perhaps it’s better to think in the terms “end of life”. Every game seemingly has an EOL point where it all creatively ends. Maybe the game persists but development ends on it. Now who knows where we are in ESO’s finite life but each year we edge closer to the end.

That said there is no way you can attract new players if they can’t catch up to the current base. Sure the current base has played more and earned more but if things stay the same you have players that will never ever catch up to them.

Great point, but I have two counterpoints:

1. I don't think that nerfing veteran players existing stats and capabilities significantly in the name of closing the gap is equitable and fair to people who have already been supporting their game. It's too great of a cost with little benefit in extending EOL. In my case, under the example solution I provided, I'd get 1660 CP instead of 1300 CP. That's plenty of space for my characters o grow, and it does not put me so far ahead of new players that they can't catch up under the new XP curve. I still would have spent more XP to get to that level then they will.

2. The game is more popular than it's ever been (part of the reason they are probably improving accessibility - check Steamcharts), which is encouraging for EOL - and an additional reason why fully invested players who obviously want to continue playing should not get nerfed, especially given the amount of horizontal progression currently available to them and possibly in the future as they continue to make changes.

You made additional points about elitism. Sharing my experience, I agree, but the CP system won't fix that. A friend and I left an elitist guild and started our own with the intent of helping new players who wanted to progress move up and get to veteran content. We started almost a year ago, and we launched our first home-grown prog group last week, which is awesome. But, it's also a long time. I get that. Yet, if I wake up on Tuesday and can't do the same DPS and survive as well on my magplar anymore as a result of nerfs, I'm not going to want to have to grind for weeks to get where I was. It's a disincentive to stay and keep doing what I do. Some people on my team will have it a lot worse given their current CP, which makes it harder to clear when it's already challenging as is. Does that make sense?

2. Yes the game is arguably more popular than ever BUT gaining new players isn’t as important as active retention. New players are a dime a dozen, ask any bot farmer. But players that stay in, add to the community, engage, and most importantly for ZOS subscribe to ESO+ are far far more important. They drive the revenue (and I’m guessing profits) that keep this game going.

no cp scaling lead me to cancel eso+...

I mean you're asking the developers to create an entirely new system by which to equate XP to new CP or bump up CP on every account by a unique percentage to each individual.

A system that would need extensive testing. A system that if it screws up more likely than not can wipe your CP amounts from the database. A system that if it does work would drive customer service crazy with requests saying that individuals should have a different CP than what they see.

And a process that is rendered completely meaningless because your CP number, which never is to decrease, doesn't dictate your power level. What does dictate that power is how the developers assign points and values to CP stars and constellations that literally change from patch to patch.

What you're saying is that asking the developers to needlessly waste their time led you to cancel ESO+ rather than them catering to a very select few who are vocal on a Public Test Server message board.

remosito

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Perhaps it’s better to think in the terms “end of life”. Every game seemingly has an EOL point where it all creatively ends. Maybe the game persists but development ends on it. Now who knows where we are in ESO’s finite life but each year we edge closer to the end.

That said there is no way you can attract new players if they can’t catch up to the current base. Sure the current base has played more and earned more but if things stay the same you have players that will never ever catch up to them.

Great point, but I have two counterpoints:

1. I don't think that nerfing veteran players existing stats and capabilities significantly in the name of closing the gap is equitable and fair to people who have already been supporting their game. It's too great of a cost with little benefit in extending EOL. In my case, under the example solution I provided, I'd get 1660 CP instead of 1300 CP. That's plenty of space for my characters o grow, and it does not put me so far ahead of new players that they can't catch up under the new XP curve. I still would have spent more XP to get to that level then they will.

2. The game is more popular than it's ever been (part of the reason they are probably improving accessibility - check Steamcharts), which is encouraging for EOL - and an additional reason why fully invested players who obviously want to continue playing should not get nerfed, especially given the amount of horizontal progression currently available to them and possibly in the future as they continue to make changes.

You made additional points about elitism. Sharing my experience, I agree, but the CP system won't fix that. A friend and I left an elitist guild and started our own with the intent of helping new players who wanted to progress move up and get to veteran content. We started almost a year ago, and we launched our first home-grown prog group last week, which is awesome. But, it's also a long time. I get that. Yet, if I wake up on Tuesday and can't do the same DPS and survive as well on my magplar anymore as a result of nerfs, I'm not going to want to have to grind for weeks to get where I was. It's a disincentive to stay and keep doing what I do. Some people on my team will have it a lot worse given their current CP, which makes it harder to clear when it's already challenging as is. Does that make sense?

2. Yes the game is arguably more popular than ever BUT gaining new players isn’t as important as active retention. New players are a dime a dozen, ask any bot farmer. But players that stay in, add to the community, engage, and most importantly for ZOS subscribe to ESO+ are far far more important. They drive the revenue (and I’m guessing profits) that keep this game going.

no cp scaling lead me to cancel eso+...

I mean you're asking the developers to create an entirely new system by which to equate XP to new CP or bump up CP on every account by a unique percentage to each individual.

A system that would need extensive testing. A system that if it screws up more likely than not can wipe your CP amounts from the database. A system that if it does work would drive customer service crazy with requests saying that individuals should have a different CP than what they see.

And a process that is rendered completely meaningless because your CP number, which never is to decrease, doesn't dictate your power level. What does dictate that power is how the developers assign points and values to CP stars and constellations that literally change from patch to patch.

What you're saying is that asking the developers to needlessly waste their time led you to cancel ESO+ rather than them catering to a very select few who are vocal on a Public Test Server message board.

jesus.. it's a one off, offline, isolated db script that runs during downtime. all it does is run through acounts. read a couple of numbers. do a coyple of trivial computations. and write back a couple different numbers.

peanuts.

it's written and tested on a testdb in a couple hours.

Disclaimer: writing such one-off db scripts is part of my job.

remosito

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I have been building up my enlightenment for almost 2 weeks now just logging into my CP level characters just to do crafting writs and collect mail from hirelings. I used the rest of my time to bring up my last 2 characters to CP level.
Anyone know if at least all that built up enlightenment will transfer over? I was hoping it would and because of the new xp curve that it would go much further than right now, I am around 935 currently so well past any curve on live.

bloody hope so. am on target for 4.8M when servers come back. cp810-1800 enlightenment will be worth 3x in CP.

but i don't put it beyond them to just wipe enlightenment too for no good reason.

trackdemon5512

remosito wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Perhaps it’s better to think in the terms “end of life”. Every game seemingly has an EOL point where it all creatively ends. Maybe the game persists but development ends on it. Now who knows where we are in ESO’s finite life but each year we edge closer to the end.

That said there is no way you can attract new players if they can’t catch up to the current base. Sure the current base has played more and earned more but if things stay the same you have players that will never ever catch up to them.

Great point, but I have two counterpoints:

1. I don't think that nerfing veteran players existing stats and capabilities significantly in the name of closing the gap is equitable and fair to people who have already been supporting their game. It's too great of a cost with little benefit in extending EOL. In my case, under the example solution I provided, I'd get 1660 CP instead of 1300 CP. That's plenty of space for my characters o grow, and it does not put me so far ahead of new players that they can't catch up under the new XP curve. I still would have spent more XP to get to that level then they will.

2. The game is more popular than it's ever been (part of the reason they are probably improving accessibility - check Steamcharts), which is encouraging for EOL - and an additional reason why fully invested players who obviously want to continue playing should not get nerfed, especially given the amount of horizontal progression currently available to them and possibly in the future as they continue to make changes.

You made additional points about elitism. Sharing my experience, I agree, but the CP system won't fix that. A friend and I left an elitist guild and started our own with the intent of helping new players who wanted to progress move up and get to veteran content. We started almost a year ago, and we launched our first home-grown prog group last week, which is awesome. But, it's also a long time. I get that. Yet, if I wake up on Tuesday and can't do the same DPS and survive as well on my magplar anymore as a result of nerfs, I'm not going to want to have to grind for weeks to get where I was. It's a disincentive to stay and keep doing what I do. Some people on my team will have it a lot worse given their current CP, which makes it harder to clear when it's already challenging as is. Does that make sense?

2. Yes the game is arguably more popular than ever BUT gaining new players isn’t as important as active retention. New players are a dime a dozen, ask any bot farmer. But players that stay in, add to the community, engage, and most importantly for ZOS subscribe to ESO+ are far far more important. They drive the revenue (and I’m guessing profits) that keep this game going.

no cp scaling lead me to cancel eso+...

I mean you're asking the developers to create an entirely new system by which to equate XP to new CP or bump up CP on every account by a unique percentage to each individual.

A system that would need extensive testing. A system that if it screws up more likely than not can wipe your CP amounts from the database. A system that if it does work would drive customer service crazy with requests saying that individuals should have a different CP than what they see.

And a process that is rendered completely meaningless because your CP number, which never is to decrease, doesn't dictate your power level. What does dictate that power is how the developers assign points and values to CP stars and constellations that literally change from patch to patch.

What you're saying is that asking the developers to needlessly waste their time led you to cancel ESO+ rather than them catering to a very select few who are vocal on a Public Test Server message board.

jesus.. it's a one off, offline, isolated db script that runs during downtime. all it does is run through acounts. read a couple of numbers. do a coyple of trivial computations. and write back a couple different numbers.

peanuts.

it's written and tested on a testdb in a couple hours.

Disclaimer: writing such one-off db scripts is part of my job.

A simple script in a game whose engine and assets are as buggy as this one can have dire consequences. Recall what happened with World of Warcraft almost two years ago when they wrote a script to automate a leveling task previously done manually.

https://kotaku.com/blizzard-is-sorry-world-of-warcraft-patch-8-0-messed-up-1827735593

AlnilamE

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I have been building up my enlightenment for almost 2 weeks now just logging into my CP level characters just to do crafting writs and collect mail from hirelings. I used the rest of my time to bring up my last 2 characters to CP level.
Anyone know if at least all that built up enlightenment will transfer over? I was hoping it would and because of the new xp curve that it would go much further than right now, I am around 935 currently so well past any curve on live.

There are no changes to enlightenment.

remosito

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Perhaps it’s better to think in the terms “end of life”. Every game seemingly has an EOL point where it all creatively ends. Maybe the game persists but development ends on it. Now who knows where we are in ESO’s finite life but each year we edge closer to the end.

That said there is no way you can attract new players if they can’t catch up to the current base. Sure the current base has played more and earned more but if things stay the same you have players that will never ever catch up to them.

Great point, but I have two counterpoints:

1. I don't think that nerfing veteran players existing stats and capabilities significantly in the name of closing the gap is equitable and fair to people who have already been supporting their game. It's too great of a cost with little benefit in extending EOL. In my case, under the example solution I provided, I'd get 1660 CP instead of 1300 CP. That's plenty of space for my characters o grow, and it does not put me so far ahead of new players that they can't catch up under the new XP curve. I still would have spent more XP to get to that level then they will.

2. The game is more popular than it's ever been (part of the reason they are probably improving accessibility - check Steamcharts), which is encouraging for EOL - and an additional reason why fully invested players who obviously want to continue playing should not get nerfed, especially given the amount of horizontal progression currently available to them and possibly in the future as they continue to make changes.

You made additional points about elitism. Sharing my experience, I agree, but the CP system won't fix that. A friend and I left an elitist guild and started our own with the intent of helping new players who wanted to progress move up and get to veteran content. We started almost a year ago, and we launched our first home-grown prog group last week, which is awesome. But, it's also a long time. I get that. Yet, if I wake up on Tuesday and can't do the same DPS and survive as well on my magplar anymore as a result of nerfs, I'm not going to want to have to grind for weeks to get where I was. It's a disincentive to stay and keep doing what I do. Some people on my team will have it a lot worse given their current CP, which makes it harder to clear when it's already challenging as is. Does that make sense?

2. Yes the game is arguably more popular than ever BUT gaining new players isn’t as important as active retention. New players are a dime a dozen, ask any bot farmer. But players that stay in, add to the community, engage, and most importantly for ZOS subscribe to ESO+ are far far more important. They drive the revenue (and I’m guessing profits) that keep this game going.

no cp scaling lead me to cancel eso+...

I mean you're asking the developers to create an entirely new system by which to equate XP to new CP or bump up CP on every account by a unique percentage to each individual.

A system that would need extensive testing. A system that if it screws up more likely than not can wipe your CP amounts from the database. A system that if it does work would drive customer service crazy with requests saying that individuals should have a different CP than what they see.

And a process that is rendered completely meaningless because your CP number, which never is to decrease, doesn't dictate your power level. What does dictate that power is how the developers assign points and values to CP stars and constellations that literally change from patch to patch.

What you're saying is that asking the developers to needlessly waste their time led you to cancel ESO+ rather than them catering to a very select few who are vocal on a Public Test Server message board.

jesus.. it's a one off, offline, isolated db script that runs during downtime. all it does is run through acounts. read a couple of numbers. do a coyple of trivial computations. and write back a couple different numbers.

peanuts.

it's written and tested on a testdb in a couple hours.

Disclaimer: writing such one-off db scripts is part of my job.

A simple script in a game whose engine and assets are as buggy as this one can have dire consequences. Recall what happened with World of Warcraft almost two years ago when they wrote a script to automate a leveling task previously done manually.

https://kotaku.com/blizzard-is-sorry-world-of-warcraft-patch-8-0-messed-up-1827735593

Thanks for the link. Interesting read. Did you actually read it?

Because it quite clearly shows what they did is very very different from what would be needed here. They changed a gazillion different things. For a lot of which new values were never in ranges that were tested and interfaced with game code in a gazillion of places.

With CP boost. Only a couple of values have to be changed. And new values are all in ranges that have already been tested on pts. And interface with game code in very few places..

Ariont

I have been playing since the game released. My ESO+ sub has never lapsed. To date I have accumulated 1449 CP points, that divided by 3 for each tree equals 483 points. With the max CP being set at 3600, it means that in order to fill out everything in each tree will require 1200 CP points.

I am 70 years old and I play about 6 to 8 hours a day. At this rate I might actually never see 3600 CP points. I have no intention of grinding my life away so I can say I have X number of CP points. There have been a lot of changes over the years to the game and I seem to have adapted to the changes without having lost my enjoyment in the game or the friends I play with.

With the upcoming changes it will be another time where I'll need to adapt to the changes and make the best of it. I guess I just have a different perspective at this age, but the game is my entertainment and it comes at a really cheap price of 50 cents a day for the sub. I think I am getting more than my monies worth. Of course others value may vary.

virtus753

Ariont wrote: »

With the max CP being set at 3600, it means that in order to fill out everything in each tree will require 1200 CP points.

That’s no longer true. It is impossible to fill everything in each tree in 2.0, because it would take more than 1200 points. The new system seems designed to feel less like there is a definitive endpoint. It’s not “I get to 3600 and then I mindlessly take everything and I’m done.” There will always be choices to make and remake, which gives it a much more open-ended feel and places less emphasis on reaching 3600.

EirgarthEldjarns

You know, it is going to happen... so either adapt of leave <shrugs>... I have been playing MMOs for a LOOONG time and seen some really dumb changes that have ruined games outright... not giving extra CPs that some feel they deserve will not kill the game... it always seems that whenever there is a large change to the game, there are some that will scream and yell on how it is unfair, they will storm off and more then once, I usually see those same folks come back after a few months.

The biggest issue with ZOS is that they don't communicate well, I don't know of many that would argue with that...

It was mentioned by someone that x% of folks feel the same way ON THE FORUMS... most players don't even bother with the forums, even less for the PTS discussions... heck, more then once these last few weeks, I have spoken to older players who didn't even know what the PTS was used for.

The change isn't going to make me want to quit, I am actually looking forward for a new CP threshold to strive for.

Lastly, if ZoS was as 'evil' as some try to make them, they could just disregard all xp after 810 and leave it at that.

Eir

Artanisul

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Sju wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Sju wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

They didn't do this when they increased the max to 810. Why would they do it now?

Are you also saying to give 360 CP to people with 500 CP? Because I assume that even they were acquiring CP at a slower rate that they will after the update. Every time they increased the CP cap, it moved the curve of XP needed to acquire CP. Obviously we should not give such a boost to those of us with 810+ CP while not giving it to someone with 500 CP who also had slower CP accumulation pre-patch.

I am suspicious of anyone only talking about what boon can be given to 810+ CP players.

I don't want a boon, per se, although I think CP earned should stay earned. I just don't want a detriment.

Me neither; I wasn't after a boon, I wasn't asking to be awarded unearned experience, I wanted my legitimately accrued experience to apply to the heavily revised requirements.

Alas according to the developers the experience I have accrued over the past few years is somehow lesser in quality than the one that will be awarded moving forward thus needing significantly more of it to qualify for the same [CP].

But you are absolutely asking for unearned experience.

I really have no idea how you reach that conclusion. I qualify for the CP I have because I have earned the experience required to qualify for the CP I have.

Care to elaborate?

You earned the experience for the cp you have now. Can you or someone please give a legitimate reasoning for why you think you earned more cp than you already have without doing any work? Because I still haven't seen a good argument for it

I could give you the wage analogy, or the vma weapons analogy, but we all know it'll just be another argument trying to convince us it is wrong, even though it is the same exact thing.

If you want to make a 'real world' analogy to illustrate your point you could try one with experience.

As in the experience required to get chartered as a civil engineer, or to get offered a partnership on a legal firm for instance.

There are many 'real world' scenarios where you need 'x' experience to qualify for 'y'.

Either way I have accrued exactly the amount of experience required to qualify for my current CP, no more, no less.

Come Monday that amount of experience would qualify someone for a significantly higher CP yet I will remain exactly the same CP I am today.

Hence saying that according to the developers the experience I have accrued until this point is of significantly lesser quality than the experience that will be awarded from Monday on.

In your real world analogy the rank you have achieved is X. In the future that rank will require far less, as it always has when the goal posts have been moved. Your rank wont change just because the ranks are easier now, just like it wasnt changed before. The system remains consistent with ESO past. I dont see the legitimate argument. This shouldnt surprise anyone based on what we know of how they have handled "level cap raises" in the past. This is just how it is done here.

It hurts to lose power, but surely it cant be a surprise that they needed to reign in the crazyness we all saw at the higher end.

AlnilamE

Ariont wrote: »

I have been playing since the game released. My ESO+ sub has never lapsed. To date I have accumulated 1449 CP points, that divided by 3 for each tree equals 483 points. With the max CP being set at 3600, it means that in order to fill out everything in each tree will require 1200 CP points.

I am 70 years old and I play about 6 to 8 hours a day. At this rate I might actually never see 3600 CP points. I have no intention of grinding my life away so I can say I have X number of CP points. There have been a lot of changes over the years to the game and I seem to have adapted to the changes without having lost my enjoyment in the game or the friends I play with.

With the upcoming changes it will be another time where I'll need to adapt to the changes and make the best of it. I guess I just have a different perspective at this age, but the game is my entertainment and it comes at a really cheap price of 50 cents a day for the sub. I think I am getting more than my monies worth. Of course others value may vary.

I'm at 1429 CP and I'll just keep playing as I'm playing. It actually got a lot easier to get to 3600 in the new scaling, but it's still going to take a while.

Doing what is fun will get us there!

honey_badger82

remosito wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I have been building up my enlightenment for almost 2 weeks now just logging into my CP level characters just to do crafting writs and collect mail from hirelings. I used the rest of my time to bring up my last 2 characters to CP level.
Anyone know if at least all that built up enlightenment will transfer over? I was hoping it would and because of the new xp curve that it would go much further than right now, I am around 935 currently so well past any curve on live.

bloody hope so. am on target for 4.8M when servers come back. cp810-1800 enlightenment will be worth 3x in CP.

but i don't put it beyond them to just wipe enlightenment too for no good reason.

AlnilamE wrote: »

honey_badger82 wrote: »

I have been building up my enlightenment for almost 2 weeks now just logging into my CP level characters just to do crafting writs and collect mail from hirelings. I used the rest of my time to bring up my last 2 characters to CP level.
Anyone know if at least all that built up enlightenment will transfer over? I was hoping it would and because of the new xp curve that it would go much further than right now, I am around 935 currently so well past any curve on live.

There are no changes to enlightenment.

Glad to hear I will keep it, as of last night I was at about 3.2 mil for enlightenment.
I figured that since the xp to reach X CP level is changed they would reset all our xp to what our current level is and in doing so wipe out any enlightenment with it.
If they do not set our xp to our current level on the new scale then they will end up having to have 2 separate xp and leveling systems wouldn't they?

I mean if the new xp for my current level is X and I have Y which happens to be significantly higher than X there would have to be a separate system that would still allow me to gain levels with new gates for each level.

furiouslog

Ariont wrote: »

I have been playing since the game released. My ESO+ sub has never lapsed. To date I have accumulated 1449 CP points, that divided by 3 for each tree equals 483 points. With the max CP being set at 3600, it means that in order to fill out everything in each tree will require 1200 CP points.

I am 70 years old and I play about 6 to 8 hours a day. At this rate I might actually never see 3600 CP points. I have no intention of grinding my life away so I can say I have X number of CP points. There have been a lot of changes over the years to the game and I seem to have adapted to the changes without having lost my enjoyment in the game or the friends I play with.

With the upcoming changes it will be another time where I'll need to adapt to the changes and make the best of it. I guess I just have a different perspective at this age, but the game is my entertainment and it comes at a really cheap price of 50 cents a day for the sub. I think I am getting more than my monies worth. Of course others value may vary.

Wow. I kind of want to help you get to 3600 now, but I agree that 3600 does not equal enjoyment. It's not really bucket-list-worthy, either.

Out of curiosity, what do you enjoy about the game? For me, because I've done most everything apart from the harder vet trials and trifectas on DLC dungeons, a lot of what I do is just a backdrop to socialize in Discord, with a 50/50 mix of PVE and PVP stuff. I probably play about 10-15 hours per week. Sometimes I throw chunks of time into housing.

Ariont

virtus753 wrote: »

Ariont wrote: »

With the max CP being set at 3600, it means that in order to fill out everything in each tree will require 1200 CP points.

That’s no longer true. It is impossible to fill everything in each tree in 2.0, because it would take more than 1200 points. The new system seems designed to feel less like there is a definitive endpoint. It’s not “I get to 3600 and then I mindlessly take everything and I’m done.” There will always be choices to make and remake, which gives it a much more open-ended feel and places less emphasis on reaching 3600.

That's true. I totally agree. The devs did say that the whole idea was that this would be expandable in the future. I know there will be some things we will have to figure out for our builds with this new system, but that will be the "fun" things we'll all go though once again.

I think the point I was trying to get across is that it will take a long time to accumulate so many points and I'm not concerned about it.

Thank you for your input. I think you made the point much more clearer than I did in a lot less words.

Ariont

furiouslog wrote: »

Wow. I kind of want to help you get to 3600 now, but I agree that 3600 does not equal enjoyment. It's not really bucket-list-worthy, either.

Out of curiosity, what do you enjoy about the game? For me, because I've done most everything apart from the harder vet trials and trifectas on DLC dungeons, a lot of what I do is just a backdrop to socialize in Discord, with a 50/50 mix of PVE and PVP stuff. I probably play about 10-15 hours per week. Sometimes I throw chunks of time into housing.

What I enjoy about the game - There is so much content.
One character took a year to do every quest in the game up through the thieves guild and dark brotherhood. As each expansion was released I have sort of spread the content among different characters.

It took me a while to start doing the daily writs and that is now done on 11 characters.

I spent a year in Cyrodiil with one character and I go there occasionally now. Not into the PVP aspect as much any more.

Was a solo player for most of my time in the game, but the past couple of years I have been experimenting with a couple of characters with different builds. I am a member of one guild that does a lot of vet dungeons and trials and because of them I learned how to make a really good healer character. A few months ago it was suggested that if I could get my DPS to a certain level "40+", it would open up a lot of new things to do. So I got to experiment with a couple of characters working on different builds. Now I usually take my Healer and DPS characters into vet trials 4 nights a week, vet dungeons with a group of friends when possible.

I started a guild on my second account and we went through the "We need a trader!" for over a year before I got tired of the "This is more like a job and not much time to play my game." So I made it a social guild. Made a lot of friends because of the guild.

Got into the housing sort of when I developed Moon Sugar Meadow and the free villa in Artaeum. I work on this a bit in a few different properties now, but not in any big rush to completely do every property. Gives me something else to look forward to.

So I guess to boil it all down to a few simple things: It would be so much content, new friends from all over the world to play with, and a chance to experiment and learn new things.

Sahidom

The answer to the OP subject title:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/563606/cp-2-0-faq#latest

No one's losing what they've already earned quantified by the number of CP.

Vahrokh

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Perhaps it’s better to think in the terms “end of life”. Every game seemingly has an EOL point where it all creatively ends. Maybe the game persists but development ends on it. Now who knows where we are in ESO’s finite life but each year we edge closer to the end.

That said there is no way you can attract new players if they can’t catch up to the current base. Sure the current base has played more and earned more but if things stay the same you have players that will never ever catch up to them.

Great point, but I have two counterpoints:

1. I don't think that nerfing veteran players existing stats and capabilities significantly in the name of closing the gap is equitable and fair to people who have already been supporting their game. It's too great of a cost with little benefit in extending EOL. In my case, under the example solution I provided, I'd get 1660 CP instead of 1300 CP. That's plenty of space for my characters o grow, and it does not put me so far ahead of new players that they can't catch up under the new XP curve. I still would have spent more XP to get to that level then they will.

2. The game is more popular than it's ever been (part of the reason they are probably improving accessibility - check Steamcharts), which is encouraging for EOL - and an additional reason why fully invested players who obviously want to continue playing should not get nerfed, especially given the amount of horizontal progression currently available to them and possibly in the future as they continue to make changes.

You made additional points about elitism. Sharing my experience, I agree, but the CP system won't fix that. A friend and I left an elitist guild and started our own with the intent of helping new players who wanted to progress move up and get to veteran content. We started almost a year ago, and we launched our first home-grown prog group last week, which is awesome. But, it's also a long time. I get that. Yet, if I wake up on Tuesday and can't do the same DPS and survive as well on my magplar anymore as a result of nerfs, I'm not going to want to have to grind for weeks to get where I was. It's a disincentive to stay and keep doing what I do. Some people on my team will have it a lot worse given their current CP, which makes it harder to clear when it's already challenging as is. Does that make sense?

1. The nerf to player stats is all around, not just to veterans. The DPS has gotten out of control with straight burn and the complete ignoring of mechanics in PVE. There are unintentional design exploits that result in increased damage (usually overlooked sets for a patch) and then there are those that creep up. The latter was exemplified by the flaws of CP1.0 at higher levels and is precisely why the cap hasn’t changed in 2.25 years.

The developers aren’t just nerfing you to close gaps between players, they’re doing so because it’s hampering their ability to actually design the game. You can’t develop new experiences and have the bypassed every DLC with players doing insane damage. What else are they to do when those same players complain that the game isn’t a challenge and that one-shot mechanics aren’t fair? The veteran players have to give in order for everyone else, including the devs, to move forward.

2. Yes the game is arguably more popular than ever BUT gaining new players isn’t as important as active retention. New players are a dime a dozen, ask any bot farmer. But players that stay in, add to the community, engage, and most importantly for ZOS subscribe to ESO+ are far far more important. They drive the revenue (and I’m guessing profits) that keep this game going.

Whales exist and are important financially but the cumulative impact of those non-endgame casual players far far exceeds what those whales are capable of. This is precisely why instead of a new class/race the game is getting “companions” this year. It’s about abolishing inequality.

1. Since when the customers have to pay for the manufacturer's mistakes? Usually, the latter deal with it and begs pardon.

2. I am "player retention" material too. I started in closed beta. OF COURSE I am a position of advantage, it's the whole point of starting early, paying collector's editions and so on. So what? ESO is exactly doing what they did with Istaria: constantly screwing loyal players (I am loyal enough that I literally have the "loyal customer Tiger mount" !). What will they get? Exactly like in Istaria: the elder players see they are not "player retention" material and quit. And, in fact, I am exactly going to cancel my sub right now. I don't tolerate disrespect after I *FED* ZOS for 7 years. Istaria lost so many players due to this attitude that in the end they defaulted as a company and sold off for pennies.

3. Whales are the 20% (and below) of players who earn 80% of the money. No, it's not true AT ALL that new players bring in more cash than whales, no game shows this. New players come in, see a 2015 era MMO with stale mechanics. They play for free and don't feel attached or loyal at all. Loyalty is earned over years and it's loyal players who keep buying and collecting stuff. ZOS never worked very hard to keep loyal players to begin with and this move is not going to help that.

trackdemon5512

Vahrokh wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

trackdemon5512 wrote: »

Perhaps it’s better to think in the terms “end of life”. Every game seemingly has an EOL point where it all creatively ends. Maybe the game persists but development ends on it. Now who knows where we are in ESO’s finite life but each year we edge closer to the end.

That said there is no way you can attract new players if they can’t catch up to the current base. Sure the current base has played more and earned more but if things stay the same you have players that will never ever catch up to them.

Great point, but I have two counterpoints:

1. I don't think that nerfing veteran players existing stats and capabilities significantly in the name of closing the gap is equitable and fair to people who have already been supporting their game. It's too great of a cost with little benefit in extending EOL. In my case, under the example solution I provided, I'd get 1660 CP instead of 1300 CP. That's plenty of space for my characters o grow, and it does not put me so far ahead of new players that they can't catch up under the new XP curve. I still would have spent more XP to get to that level then they will.

2. The game is more popular than it's ever been (part of the reason they are probably improving accessibility - check Steamcharts), which is encouraging for EOL - and an additional reason why fully invested players who obviously want to continue playing should not get nerfed, especially given the amount of horizontal progression currently available to them and possibly in the future as they continue to make changes.

You made additional points about elitism. Sharing my experience, I agree, but the CP system won't fix that. A friend and I left an elitist guild and started our own with the intent of helping new players who wanted to progress move up and get to veteran content. We started almost a year ago, and we launched our first home-grown prog group last week, which is awesome. But, it's also a long time. I get that. Yet, if I wake up on Tuesday and can't do the same DPS and survive as well on my magplar anymore as a result of nerfs, I'm not going to want to have to grind for weeks to get where I was. It's a disincentive to stay and keep doing what I do. Some people on my team will have it a lot worse given their current CP, which makes it harder to clear when it's already challenging as is. Does that make sense?

1. The nerf to player stats is all around, not just to veterans. The DPS has gotten out of control with straight burn and the complete ignoring of mechanics in PVE. There are unintentional design exploits that result in increased damage (usually overlooked sets for a patch) and then there are those that creep up. The latter was exemplified by the flaws of CP1.0 at higher levels and is precisely why the cap hasn’t changed in 2.25 years.

The developers aren’t just nerfing you to close gaps between players, they’re doing so because it’s hampering their ability to actually design the game. You can’t develop new experiences and have the bypassed every DLC with players doing insane damage. What else are they to do when those same players complain that the game isn’t a challenge and that one-shot mechanics aren’t fair? The veteran players have to give in order for everyone else, including the devs, to move forward.

2. Yes the game is arguably more popular than ever BUT gaining new players isn’t as important as active retention. New players are a dime a dozen, ask any bot farmer. But players that stay in, add to the community, engage, and most importantly for ZOS subscribe to ESO+ are far far more important. They drive the revenue (and I’m guessing profits) that keep this game going.

Whales exist and are important financially but the cumulative impact of those non-endgame casual players far far exceeds what those whales are capable of. This is precisely why instead of a new class/race the game is getting “companions” this year. It’s about abolishing inequality.

1. Since when the customers have to pay for the manufacturer's mistakes? Usually, the latter deal with it and begs pardon.

2. I am "player retention" material too. I started in closed beta. OF COURSE I am a position of advantage, it's the whole point of starting early, paying collector's editions and so on. So what? ESO is exactly doing what they did with Istaria: constantly screwing loyal players (I am loyal enough that I literally have the "loyal customer Tiger mount" !). What will they get? Exactly like in Istaria: the elder players see they are not "player retention" material and quit. And, in fact, I am exactly going to cancel my sub right now. I don't tolerate disrespect after I *FED* ZOS for 7 years. Istaria lost so many players due to this attitude that in the end they defaulted as a company and sold off for pennies.

3. Whales are the 20% (and below) of players who earn 80% of the money. No, it's not true AT ALL that new players bring in more cash than whales, no game shows this. New players come in, see a 2015 era MMO with stale mechanics. They play for free and don't feel attached or loyal at all. Loyalty is earned over years and it's loyal players who keep buying and collecting stuff. ZOS never worked very hard to keep loyal players to begin with and this move is not going to help that.

1. You essentially benefitted from insane DPS allowed for the last several year. ZOS knew it was broken well before Murkmire came out and that it was hampering development. Now they attempted some mitigation efforts but the long term solution was deemed what is now "CP 2.0" years ago.

You and others reaped the rewards with easier clears of content that was supposed to be more challenging. The achievements you earned haven't been taken away. Your CP isn't being taken away. Only the necessary correction that has been openly discussed for years to bring things back to an acceptable level is being implemented. If ZOS wanted to make you "pay" they easily could have just squished CP and dropped you back like they did in WOW back in October.

2. You seem to correlate loyalty with the notion that developer owes you something and should follow your direction/wants. That's not how a business nor a functional product designed for the masses works. While loyalty is appreciated it cannot result in choices that while it may benefit a few essentially harms the many. Here, the previous CP system hampered advancing development and created constraints. It needed to be changed and balanced for long term health of the game. Your want benefits you in the short run but doesn't help the vast majority in the long run. As such your loyalty doesn't factor in.

Real world example: Harley Davidson has brand loyalty amongst its customers. As a business its dying though they haven't kept up with the times and evolved properly. They need new customers and yet their adherence towards marketing really only toward the loyal ones has curtailed any growth and they're still doing terribly. Loyalty, while great, is leading to the end of Harley Davidson.

3. New players come in, they pay a price for a new game copy. They experience an ESO+ trial, they subscribe. They see something they like in the crown store, they make an impulse buy. Those kinds of transactions happen thousands of times more often than what whales possibly do. Those kinds of transactions are the ones you can take to shareholders and count on as constant. Those kinds of transactions keep products alive. Singular individuals cannot make up for that. As shown with a player such as yourself a single slight can result in one person leaving but the rest staying. The value of that one cannot be greater than the rest otherwise it's bad business. Tailoring a business to one individuals wants may keep them loyal but it comes at serious cost.

Loyalty is great for bonuses. Loyalty cannot define the bottom line.