Do you like more micromanagement with CP 2.0?

RedMuse

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like the idea behind this was not to micromanage it, it was to make you decide what you want to focus on.

It's really the game designers saying "Hey, we'll make it easy for you to get good fish or you can have it easy to get high quality stuff in chests! Which would you choose for your gameplay?" They have it set so you can switch whenever you want, depending on which direction you want to go.

It's the players that hear that and are saying "I need the fishing passive only when I'm fishing and the chest passive only when I'm looting chests and the..."

It just feel like it's designed that you need to make some sacrifices in your gameplay if you want certain passives, but the fact that it allows you to swap at will makes it so you can either play the 'let me swap my CP every three seconds' or the 'meh, I'm not fussed if I sacrifice a gold mat when refining' game.

I feel like the idea to just give all fo the green slots to red and blue isn't solving anything. Would I like to slot more power CPs? Yes. But then I don't need to make choices anymore since I can just get everything. And the devs' entire presentation about this was making choices. I still think we should have to make sacrifices in one place to get somewhere in another.

After all, if the game was only about getting everything and sacrificing nothing, why even bother giving us characters? Just open the game, there's a maxed-stats blank slate, and then we're all on the same level, right?

Which makes sense for combat because balancing among other things. How in the name of all Deadric Princes does this remotely make sense for chest picking and fishing! They'll have to do a lot of fast talking to convince players that this is in any way logical for "overland and chill", instead they've just said nothing so I can only assume you're wrong.

Edit: Also if this was to be a true choice and not a pretend one they should bar us from getting it altogether. Like you can only buy X amount of slottables so you have to choose. Instead they introduce false choices which tends to *** people off. If they want players to choose then that is what they should do. Like with the current system where you only have X number of points that you can slot so you can't get everything and people are fine with that because that's a true choice. In CP 2.0 at least insofar crafting et al goes, it's solely fake choices, and that tend to make people angry. Either make us actually choose or let us have it all, stop with the fakeouts.

BalticBlues

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

Q&A of what is coming to consoles:

Scardan wrote: »

(PC player) I do not care. I will not micromanage everything, it is not required to play, OP. The poll is based on very high lvl perfectionism.

renne wrote: »

(Console player) As a console player I am really dreading the massively negative QoL impact this is going to have on my play time. Having to remember to swap out things I never used to BECAUSE they were passives and now I have to have slotted in order to not be gimped just playing the game the way I normally do, is going to be SO PAINFUL.

tomofhyrule

RedMuse wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like the idea behind this was not to micromanage it, it was to make you decide what you want to focus on.

It's really the game designers saying "Hey, we'll make it easy for you to get good fish or you can have it easy to get high quality stuff in chests! Which would you choose for your gameplay?" They have it set so you can switch whenever you want, depending on which direction you want to go.

It's the players that hear that and are saying "I need the fishing passive only when I'm fishing and the chest passive only when I'm looting chests and the..."

It just feel like it's designed that you need to make some sacrifices in your gameplay if you want certain passives, but the fact that it allows you to swap at will makes it so you can either play the 'let me swap my CP every three seconds' or the 'meh, I'm not fussed if I sacrifice a gold mat when refining' game.

I feel like the idea to just give all fo the green slots to red and blue isn't solving anything. Would I like to slot more power CPs? Yes. But then I don't need to make choices anymore since I can just get everything. And the devs' entire presentation about this was making choices. I still think we should have to make sacrifices in one place to get somewhere in another.

After all, if the game was only about getting everything and sacrificing nothing, why even bother giving us characters? Just open the game, there's a maxed-stats blank slate, and then we're all on the same level, right?

Which makes sense for combat because balancing among other things. How in the name of all Deadric Princes does this remotely make sense for chest picking and fishing! They'll have to do a lot of fast talking to convince players that this is in any way logical for "overland and chill", instead they've just said nothing so I can only assume you're wrong.

Edit: Also if this was to be a true choice and not a pretend one they should bar us from getting it altogether. Like you can only buy X amount of slottables so you have to choose. Instead they introduce false choices which tends to *** people off. If they want players to choose then that is what they should do. Like with the current system where you only have X number of points that you can slot so you can't get everything and people are fine with that because that's a true choice. In CP 2.0 at least insofar crafting et al goes, it's solely fake choices, and that tend to make people angry. Either make us actually choose or let us have it all, stop with the fakeouts.

My feeling is that not much of this is gamechanging, so I'm not going to bother with the hassle of "you have to reslot everything every time you do something!" Is it annoying? Yeah. Is it insurmountable? No.

If I go through a series of dungeons and then repair my gear at a merchant but forgot to slot the passive, I'm out what, 126 gold? When I got much more than that from running the dungeon, or from my wirts, or I can get that easily from chests I find out and about. It's not a major thing if I miss slotting Rationer and my food lasts for only 120 minutes instead of 130.

I think the point is that many of these slottables have counterparts that are passives or other factors already - Meticulous Disassembly is just like another level of the crafting decon things. Rationer is just like Gourmand/Connoisseur. Angler's Instincts are just like Artaeum Fish Bowl. If you really need to get the bonus it provides, you can take the time to slot it. If you can't be bothered, you don't.

Now I do think it would be more interesting if they closed off sections like they do with skill morphs, but then people would complain about how "We shouldn't have to choose between faster fishing versus better quality fish!!!"

I'm sure the Doylist interpretation of this system was something along the lines of:
"Well, we want 4 slottables per tree and we got a good mix of things people have to pick for the Warrior and Mage, but I have no idea what we could make slottable for Thief."
"Meh, just pick some things to make slottable. The players will deal with it. If they want something they can put it on. If they care enough to get them all, then they can swap. Come on, time for lunch break."
I'm sure that even the devs aren't expecting us to want to slot everything. But yeah, sometimes they're off the mark on what they want versus what all the players do - you see how many times they 'fix' Alkosh since tanks are wearing it instead of StamDPS.

So in short, It's a bit annoying, but I'm already over it since I can so easily adapt my gameplay around it - I don't care enough to min-max and reslot every time I take a step. If I miss out on some things, c'est la vie. I'm much more concerned with other things in this update like the armor changes since that sounds like disaster for my tank, but after checking out the PTS it might not even be as bad as I thought it'd be.

BalticBlues

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I can so easily adapt my gameplay around it
[...]If I miss out on some things, c'est la vie.

This sounds like you must be incredibly rich (or ignorant, sorry).
However, most Average Joes are not.

Example: There is an active for refining. Refining is giving you gold materials.
For most people getting these gold materials is essential for their gameplay.
However, how often do you refine? Once per week, fortnight or month?

Answer: You refine so rarely, you certainly do not pick this active for regular gameplay.
Result: This active is not any adding any meaningful gameplay option. It is just adding another layer of micromanagement where you must not forget to activate this active once per week/fortnight/month, or you will bite into your chair when you do.

stefj68

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

everyone said that crafting treee everything should be passive, we all agreed on that except ZOS
we will see with the launch if they listen to us!

time to place your bet

MaegMaeg

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

It's really only the green tree....

walking around while waiting in dungeon queue...
-sees a flower: oh let me change cp slots so I can pick it up!

-finds a fishing pond: hmm I'm missing a fish in this area, let me change cp slots, maybe I'll get it!

-finds a chest: gotta change cp slots, so it's worth it!

-finds lots of materials: ah yes, change cp slots.

-inventory full: I should change cp slots, so I can get to the next wayshrine quick.

-back in town: need to change cp slots to sell my stuff

-still in town: I could change cp slots and process some of the materials I gathered....

-finally found a group for dungeon: one sec guys, gotta change my cp slots....

-tank quits, healer quits:......... Guess I change cp slots again and go back gathering?


Sounds like fun?

Really ZOS?......

tomofhyrule

BalticBlues wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I can so easily adapt my gameplay around it
[...]If I miss out on some things, c'est la vie.

This sounds like you must be incredibly rich (or ignorant, sorry).
However, most Average Joes are not.

...or I'm just kinda casual and don't go meta chasing or hardcore trading. But thank you for implying that 'casual' means 'ignorant,' it's always interesting to see how the leet uberz community sees casuals.

You're noting gold mats are essential for gameplay. I'd wager that many 'Average Joes' don't really care about gold mats and needing to upgrade and kit out 18 characters. I can assure you that you don't need a gold CP160 perfect Siroria inferno staff to do overworld content. Maybe Average Joe ubers will have a full cadre of perfected characters and be masters of the trading system, but that's not the average player in game.

I admitted that needing to slot things is annoying. But I'll deal with it. If that means that I refined mats with my 3x multiplier from the extraction passive and forgot to slot disassembly as well, that's on me. But that's also one of those things that if you mess it up once, you don't do it again. How many people have ever accidentally eaten a super expensive motif/style page on an alt that they meant to put on the guild trader? Should we therefore add a "Are you sure you want to use this page? Write CONFIRM to eat it!" to prevent people from messing up that way?

My point is that it's annoying, but workable. Is it a step backwards? Yes. Is it frustrating? Yes. Is it literally the end of the world? No. PC players will get an addon for it within hours so the annoyance is gone. Console players or people who don't play addons will have to get used to swapping CP, or being more judicious about tasks - if you don't want to swap CP every three seconds, maybe then you can't farm mats, then fish some, then go chest hunting, then go repair and decon. You need to do each at a different time.

I'm the kind of player that, if there were no slottables on the green tree, I'd be fine. If all of them were slottable, I'd be fine. There are way bigger things to worry about in game than whether I can RP walk through town at 2 mph or at 2.1 mph depending on what I decided to slot.

Like I said, I'm sure most of this is slottable just because they needed something to be slottable on this tree. Everything could well be passives, but their design is 4 slotted CP stars per constellation, so they needed to come up with some slottables for the green tree. They probably could have made better choices (if they had one that gave increased chances of leads dropping, maybe I'd finally be able to find some Ancestral Reach motifs...), but I'm not really concerned with needing to reslot if I'm only going to be saving myself about 100 gold on repairs.

virtus753

tomofhyrule wrote: »

They probably could have made better choices (if they had one that gave increased chances of leads dropping, maybe I'd finally be able to find some Ancestral Reach motifs...), but I'm not really concerned with needing to reslot if I'm only going to be saving myself about 100 gold on repairs.

They also could have made better choices by fixing long-term bugs like the one preventing Ancestral Reach from dropping properly as intended during excavations. Unless they’re going to implement a universal Bugfix node. I could go for that.

gariondavey

No!

Also lmao at the huge percentage of people who also feel this way. Hopefully they listen...

starkerealm

RogueShark wrote: »

This is actually the only part of the new CP system I'm not a huge fan of. I wish, mostly/especially with the green tree, that there were more things set passively rather than needing to be slotted. God help me the day I forget to slot meticulous disassembly or whatever and go on a huge survey refining + decon spree with my fishing crap slotted on accident. xD

On the, "bright," side... meticulous disassembly currently does nothing if you already have extraction maxed out. (It appears to add a hidden +1 to the refinement/decon passives, but if you already have 3/3 extraction it does nothing.

starkerealm

BalticBlues wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I can so easily adapt my gameplay around it
[...]If I miss out on some things, c'est la vie.

This sounds like you must be incredibly rich (or ignorant, sorry).
However, most Average Joes are not.

Example: There is an active for refining. Refining is giving you gold materials.
For most people getting these gold materials is essential for their gameplay.
However, how often do you refine? Once per week, fortnight or month?

Answer: You refine so rarely, you certainly do not pick this active for regular gameplay.
Result: This active is not any adding any meaningful gameplay option. It is just adding another layer of micromanagement where you must not forget to activate this active once per week/fortnight/month, or you will bite into your chair when you do.

I realize I just said this to someone else, but at least on the current PTS build, Meticulous Disassembly doesn't do anything if you already have the passives maxed out. I'd be right there with you about it being annoying if I forgot to slot it before doing a refinement blitz... if it actually did anything on my crafter.

Fennwitty

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

Make sure to mention your feelings in the official feedback thread too. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/559378/pts-update-29-feedback-thread-for-champion-point-system

DreadDaedroth

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

All Non combat champion point stars should be active even if not slotted.

Sarannah

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

One thing that is not mentioned here: Even on PC where players can use add-ons, this is a terrible system. As some players who use add-ons would gain a bonus over players who do not use add-ons. It should never happen that those without add-ons get less loot and resources vs those who do use add-ons. Making these skills passives would be best. Or if ZOS really wants us to make choices between these, they should only allow players to swap actives when in town! This way active switching would not give an advantage.

PS: I'm massively against switching actives/micromanagement, as I like to wander around and do everything at the same time.

Sahidom

The "micromanagement" is deceptive wording. There are several useful stars with limited active slots; Sure you could get into micro managed state to *** active slots every detail of your gameplay.

ESO is a graphical combat system with mini games under the umbrella of the entire game. The CP 2.0 system does offer several options to enhance your primary gameplay with the character.

It's a system where you can't always have your icing on your cake i.e. limiting being able to deal great damage, soak damage and heal awesome. The want to do all the above under the phase let's not micromanage our CPS resists the want to adapt into the CP 2.0 system. I anticipate those who allocate to their primary gameplay won't notice this micromanagement terminology, as a hindrance.

Marto

Yes, I like to spend my play time with more micromanagement and less gameplay

Wow... What a useful, unbiased poll.

I'm sure ZOS will look at this, and think "This is great feedback, we must definitely listen to these players!"

lillybit

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

Marto wrote: »

Wow... What a useful, unbiased poll.

I'm sure ZOS will look at this, and think "This is great feedback, we must definitely listen to these players!"

Yeah that's the reason they'll ignore it, because unbiased polls get soooo much more attention!

RogueShark

starkerealm wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

This is actually the only part of the new CP system I'm not a huge fan of. I wish, mostly/especially with the green tree, that there were more things set passively rather than needing to be slotted. God help me the day I forget to slot meticulous disassembly or whatever and go on a huge survey refining + decon spree with my fishing crap slotted on accident. xD

On the, "bright," side... meticulous disassembly currently does nothing if you already have extraction maxed out. (It appears to add a hidden +1 to the refinement/decon passives, but if you already have 3/3 extraction it does nothing.

Well now I'm just sad.

remosito

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

RogueShark wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

This is actually the only part of the new CP system I'm not a huge fan of. I wish, mostly/especially with the green tree, that there were more things set passively rather than needing to be slotted. God help me the day I forget to slot meticulous disassembly or whatever and go on a huge survey refining + decon spree with my fishing crap slotted on accident. xD

On the, "bright," side... meticulous disassembly currently does nothing if you already have extraction maxed out. (It appears to add a hidden +1 to the refinement/decon passives, but if you already have 3/3 extraction it does nothing.

Well now I'm just sad.

be happy. it was fixed in 6.3.4 and niw gives an rstimated 12.5% boost to temper drop rate from refinement.

remosito

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

Sahidom wrote: »

The "micromanagement" is deceptive wording. There are several useful stars with limited active slots; Sure you could get into micro managed state to *** active slots every detail of your gameplay.

ESO is a graphical combat system with mini games under the umbrella of the entire game. The CP 2.0 system does offer several options to enhance your primary gameplay with the character.

It's a system where you can't always have your icing on your cake i.e. limiting being able to deal great damage, soak damage and heal awesome. The want to do all the above under the phase let's not micromanage our CPS resists the want to adapt into the CP 2.0 system. I anticipate those who allocate to their primary gameplay won't notice this micromanagement terminology, as a hindrance.

you havent much looked at the green tree i venture.

Scardan

BalticBlues wrote: »

Q&A of what is coming to consoles:

Scardan wrote: »

(PC player) I do not care. I will not micromanage everything, it is not required to play, OP. The poll is based on very high lvl perfectionism.

renne wrote: »

(Console player) As a console player I am really dreading the massively negative QoL impact this is going to have on my play time. Having to remember to swap out things I never used to BECAUSE they were passives and now I have to have slotted in order to not be gimped just playing the game the way I normally do, is going to be SO PAINFUL.

What?

Scardan

BalticBlues wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I can so easily adapt my gameplay around it
[...]If I miss out on some things, c'est la vie.

This sounds like you must be incredibly rich (or ignorant, sorry).
However, most Average Joes are not.

Example: There is an active for refining. Refining is giving you gold materials.
For most people getting these gold materials is essential for their gameplay.
However, how often do you refine? Once per week, fortnight or month?

Answer: You refine so rarely, you certainly do not pick this active for regular gameplay.
Result: This active is not any adding any meaningful gameplay option. It is just adding another layer of micromanagement where you must not forget to activate this active once per week/fortnight/month, or you will bite into your chair when you do.

Nope, he must not. This passive works well for somebody who does it very often in large quantities, he will full profit from it. Somebody who refines mats 1 time in month will not see a difference. It is not worth to micromanage for him. Calculate the chances, you will see it too.

remosito

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

Scardan wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I can so easily adapt my gameplay around it
[...]If I miss out on some things, c'est la vie.

This sounds like you must be incredibly rich (or ignorant, sorry).
However, most Average Joes are not.

Example: There is an active for refining. Refining is giving you gold materials.
For most people getting these gold materials is essential for their gameplay.
However, how often do you refine? Once per week, fortnight or month?

Answer: You refine so rarely, you certainly do not pick this active for regular gameplay.
Result: This active is not any adding any meaningful gameplay option. It is just adding another layer of micromanagement where you must not forget to activate this active once per week/fortnight/month, or you will bite into your chair when you do.

Nope, he must not. This passive works well for somebody who does it very often in large quantities, he will full profit from it. Somebody who refines mats 1 time in month will not see a difference. It is not worth to micromanage for him. Calculate the chances, you will see it too.

frequency does nit matter at all. quantity alone matters.

I refine every 3 month or so. 50-100k+ mats.

with 100k difference is 62.5 gold tempers. A few 100k gold...

Hotdog_23

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

Love ESO but with this new level of micromanagement if might be time to look at other games just to see what is out there.

ZOS has added to ESO to help bridge the gap a little with PC vs. console such as multicraft but with this new CP system they will have effective made the gap larger by a lot.

Already seen add-ons talked about here on the forum that will automate the process of slotting the necessary stars needed when needed for when they interact with a merchant, crafting station, fishing etc.

Glad our PC brothers and sisters are going to get add-ons that will automatically slots the necessary stars but to give this level of micromanagement to the game is dishearten to say the least for console players.

More time spent micromanaging is less time playing the game compared to what it will be like before CP 2.0.

They either need to make more of the crafting tree passive slots of give us more stars for this tree vs. the other trees.

Posted here and PTS Update 29 - Feedback Thread for Champion Point System https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/559378/pts-update-29-feedback-thread-for-champion-point-system#latest

Stay safe and have fun

PS, Micromanagement is not fun ZOS

Kurat

remosito wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

The "micromanagement" is deceptive wording. There are several useful stars with limited active slots; Sure you could get into micro managed state to *** active slots every detail of your gameplay.

ESO is a graphical combat system with mini games under the umbrella of the entire game. The CP 2.0 system does offer several options to enhance your primary gameplay with the character.

It's a system where you can't always have your icing on your cake i.e. limiting being able to deal great damage, soak damage and heal awesome. The want to do all the above under the phase let's not micromanage our CPS resists the want to adapt into the CP 2.0 system. I anticipate those who allocate to their primary gameplay won't notice this micromanagement terminology, as a hindrance.

you havent much looked at the green tree i venture.

https://github.com/CyberOnEso/JackOfAllTrades

Green tree is no longer a problem.

Secondsz

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

The micro management is aweful.

I find it amazing the, there are 2 polls up, 1 about scaling current EXP earned to what your new CP level *should* be, 81% in favor. And now this one about the aweful micro management, which is also going to end up 80%+ in favor of making more of it passive.

Yet they choose to continue down the path an overwhelming majority dont want.

When do you ever see polls anywhere that achieve this sort of one sided result.

So out of touch its crazy.

remosito

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

Kurat wrote: »

remosito wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

The "micromanagement" is deceptive wording. There are several useful stars with limited active slots; Sure you could get into micro managed state to *** active slots every detail of your gameplay.

ESO is a graphical combat system with mini games under the umbrella of the entire game. The CP 2.0 system does offer several options to enhance your primary gameplay with the character.

It's a system where you can't always have your icing on your cake i.e. limiting being able to deal great damage, soak damage and heal awesome. The want to do all the above under the phase let's not micromanage our CPS resists the want to adapt into the CP 2.0 system. I anticipate those who allocate to their primary gameplay won't notice this micromanagement terminology, as a hindrance.

you havent much looked at the green tree i venture.

https://github.com/CyberOnEso/JackOfAllTrades

Green tree is no longer a problem.

one word: consoles

Massacre_Wurm

MaegMaeg wrote: »

It's really only the green tree....

walking around while waiting in dungeon queue...
-sees a flower: oh let me change cp slots so I can pick it up!

-finds a fishing pond: hmm I'm missing a fish in this area, let me change cp slots, maybe I'll get it!

-finds a chest: gotta change cp slots, so it's worth it!

-finds lots of materials: ah yes, change cp slots.

-inventory full: I should change cp slots, so I can get to the next wayshrine quick.

-back in town: need to change cp slots to sell my stuff

-still in town: I could change cp slots and process some of the materials I gathered....

-finally found a group for dungeon: one sec guys, gotta change my cp slots....

-tank quits, healer quits:......... Guess I change cp slots again and go back gathering?


Sounds like fun?

Really ZOS?......

Yep. Thats why they should charge you for stlotting and uslotting stars. It will create meaningful decisions and choices.

starkerealm

remosito wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

This is actually the only part of the new CP system I'm not a huge fan of. I wish, mostly/especially with the green tree, that there were more things set passively rather than needing to be slotted. God help me the day I forget to slot meticulous disassembly or whatever and go on a huge survey refining + decon spree with my fishing crap slotted on accident. xD

On the, "bright," side... meticulous disassembly currently does nothing if you already have extraction maxed out. (It appears to add a hidden +1 to the refinement/decon passives, but if you already have 3/3 extraction it does nothing.

Well now I'm just sad.

be happy. it was fixed in 6.3.4 and niw gives an rstimated 12.5% boost to temper drop rate from refinement.

I was testing this on 6.3.4. Prior to that, having it equipped would prevent you from receiving any upgrade materials. So, "fixed," in the sense that it technically works. But all it seems to do is apply a hidden +1 to your extraction passives, with the passives still capping at +3.

Ishtarknows

No, I like to spend my play time with more gameplay and less micromanagement

I'm in several trial prog teams and while we are resetting the instance / having a short break etc I like to run around farming mats. Right now, most of my characters have the passive giving a chance to get double drops from nodes so I know I not missing out on anything. In order to maintain this I'd have to:
1. remember that I am now restricted in my character's diversity. My 40k+ achievement point main is relegated to crafter now because reasons
2. Decide whether I have time to manually change my cp in order to maximise my 2 minute farm and then change it back in time to port back to the trial
3. Farm mats
4. Remember to change it back. I'm a support so y'know optimisation important
5. Make similar decisions if I come across a chest on my farm with the replacement for treasure hunter passive

I'm on console so this all seems like a micromanaging pita for no good reason. Why should the ability to get more from a node be active rather than passive if I've enough cp to allocate permanently?

The combat power nerf I was prepared for, it's been a long time coming, but I'm not looking forward to being crap at everything just so new players can reach supposed parity in super quick time.
I say 'supposed' because player ability and experience will almost always be more important than being able to slot appropriate cp stars.