Adjust PVP part of the Telvar risk?

coop500

P.S: please read this entirely before voting! Thank you~

Okay, to start this off, let me preface this by explaining I do NOT mind players getting my telvar if they beat me, it's part of the imperial city/sewers and should remain as such. Otherwise it would be farmed to the point of having no real value. And plus a good chunk of the fun is the risk.

My suggestion instead comes from the no risk vs taking ALL the risk. That, IMO, is what I am purposing to suggest. I had a few examples of how to make this more fair, but basically gankers can currently take zero risk while attacking players to steal half their stones.

Instead, make the gankers have to carry some stones too. We have a multiplier already, use that.

X1 = 10% of the stones taken (this is 0 stones)
X2 = 25% of the stones taken (keep in mind this is easily achievable by just carrying 100 stones)
X3 = 50% of the stones taken (this is 1000 stones)
X4 = ALL the stones taken (I think this is 10000? so yeah, I feel this is risky enough for a full take, maybe 75%)

The whole telvar system pushes a risk for reward vibe, the more you carry, the more you can earn, except when it comes to PVP. All this really does is cause people to prey upon folks grinding stones while taking no risk on their own. If they are good PVPers, why take the risk of farming stones from NPC daedra when you can just nuke someone and take theirs while carrying like, 0 stones?

This also rewards us who are taking the (currently) only risk, if we managed to fend off our attacker.

Another way you can do it is probably even MORE simple but IDK if it will work as well.

Simply make it so you take as much as you are carrying OR all if they have less than you do. I'll list some examples

If you (the attacker) are carrying, say, 500 stones and you attack someone with 3000 stones, you get 500 from them.

If you (the attacker) are carrying 3000 stones and you attack someone with 500, you get all of them.

If both of you are carrying around 500, then you'd take your 500 and leave them with whatever is left over.

Basically your current telvar balance = how much you take, a straight up cross.

I personally like my first purposal better, but I would honestly be happy for ANY kind of system that makes everyone take at least somewhat equal risk. As it stands, the risk is very one sided and I am hoping I'm not the only one that would like to see this changed.

nukk3r

Yes, I like the first idea

First idea seems more fair. Someone who doesn't care for the stupid stones, like me, won't lose much and won't gain much. People who care about them will earn more with the risk of losing more.
Second idea is silly, if a ganker carries 3k TV and dies to someone carrying 500, their target should be reimbursed for the trouble, not leave the ganker with 2.5k. This lowers the risk of a gank and doesn't punish a player for poor performance.

coop500

Other

nukk3r wrote: »

First idea seems more fair. Someone who doesn't care for the stupid stones, like me, won't lose much and won't gain much. People who care about them will earn more with the risk of losing more.
Second idea is silly, if a ganker carries 3k TV and dies to someone carrying 500, their target should be reimbursed for the trouble, not leave the ganker with 2.5k. This lowers the risk of a gank and doesn't punish a player for poor performance.

That's why I stated that IDK if it would work as well. I prefer the first idea too, but with ZOS I figured it might be too hard for their spaghetti code lol.

coop500

Other

Honestly I'm not too picky on the details, it's just, as it stands, it sucks lol. I would love to see it adjusted somehow so the risk is more equal.

Fischblut

I like the idea of changing it, but have an idea/change of my own (please explain in comments!)

I would simply reduce amount of tel var lost upon death. Make it 10% loss, and IC will become truly welcoming place

coop500

Other

Fischblut wrote: »

I would simply reduce amount of tel var lost upon death. Make it 10% loss, and IC will become truly welcoming place

I would not complain about that haha, but I think that might remove a lot of the risk and we face de-valuing telvar.

Goregrinder

No, leave the system as it is

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

VaranisArano

Fischblut wrote: »

I would simply reduce amount of tel var lost upon death. Make it 10% loss, and IC will become truly welcoming place

It used to be 80% loss to a player and 10% loss to an NPC death. It's pretty predictable what players did, and so it got adjusted to 50% loss to any death.

coop500

Other

Goregrinder wrote: »

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

There's no actual risk... they lose nothing if they die?

coop500

Other

VaranisArano wrote: »

Fischblut wrote: »

I would simply reduce amount of tel var lost upon death. Make it 10% loss, and IC will become truly welcoming place

It used to be 80% loss to a player and 10% loss to an NPC death. It's pretty predictable what players did, and so it got adjusted to 50% loss to any death.

Yeah I bet, people will abuse nearly anything so lol.

Taloros

I made a similar suggestions here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/470345/suggestion-increase-tel-var-stone-loot/p1

Goregrinder

No, leave the system as it is

coop500 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

There's no actual risk... they lose nothing if they die?

They lose telvar, just the same as when the player they kill dies if their gank is successful. Both players in this scenario task the same risk of losing telvar upon death. The difference here is that the ganker is guaranteed to run zero defenses other than cloak and a heal. No impen, like 11k resists, no shields, no armor buffs, no evasion, nothing to help them mitigate damage if they are caught or make a mistake.

The best advice I can give anyone complaining about anything is to actually take the time to learn how the thing they are complaining about actually works. Roll a NB, run a generic gank setup, and try to gank good PVPers, I'd suggest try to gank 20 good players. Not potatoes, good players. Then out of those 20, tally up how many of them you actually ganked in a 2 or 3 second window before they could react. I am going to guess that 10 of them were ungankable the first round, and you had to restealth and reset. I would also guess that out of the 10 players you failed to gank on the first shot, 8 of them chased you down, kept you from re-cloaking, and killed you.

The thing is, there is a cap to how much burst damage we can effectively do in a 2 or 3 second window. While a bad player is easy to gank, a good player is hard to gank. Even with snipe, even with Onslaught, a good player is going to know to dodge roll immediately/Break free, pop their heals, pop an anti-stealth pot, or throw dots on you to keep you from recloaking.

There are good players in PVP, some of them even godlike, but most are potatoes. If you're getting ganked left and right so easily, have you considered that you're just one of the potatoes? Because the truth is, potatoes are easy kills for any experienced PVPer regardless of if they are a ganker or not.

Qbiken

No, leave the system as it is

All these suggestions "secretly" hints towards is to remove the risk of farming telvar to begin with. All they want is a free zone where they can calmly farm it without being disturbed. All these suggestions would do is reduce the risk of the ones farming telvar, because the more telvar you´ve, the less likely it is that you´ll lose a great amount, which is absolutely ridiculous logic.

The system is fine as it is.

Goregrinder

No, leave the system as it is

Qbiken wrote: »

All these suggestions "secretly" hints towards is to remove the risk of farming telvar to begin with. All they want is a free zone where they can calmly farm it without being disturbed. All these suggestions would do is reduce the risk of the ones farming telvar, because the more telvar you´ve, the less likely it is that you´ll lose a great amount, which is absolutely ridiculous logic.

The system is fine as it is.

100% agree. This is not a PVE zone...it's a PVP zone. It's supposed to be stressful, because humans are the smartest quantifiable computer on Planet Earth, and you have a chance to be attacked by one of these at any moment. Suggestions like these are basically asking to make it easier for the person to farm what it is they want, at the expense of taking the high reward that another player gets out of PVPing away from them.

Essentially it is a "MY fun is more important than THEIR fun, so make it more fun for ME" request. And I say no to every single one of those.

kringled_1

Goregrinder wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

There's no actual risk... they lose nothing if they die?

They lose telvar, just the same as when the player they kill dies if their gank is successful. Both players in this scenario task the same risk of losing telvar upon death. The difference here is that the ganker is guaranteed to run zero defenses other than cloak and a heal. No impen, like 11k resists, no shields, no armor buffs, no evasion, nothing to help them mitigate damage if they are caught or make a mistake.

The best advice I can give anyone complaining about anything is to actually take the time to learn how the thing they are complaining about actually works. Roll a NB, run a generic gank setup, and try to gank good PVPers, I'd suggest try to gank 20 good players. Not potatoes, good players. Then out of those 20, tally up how many of them you actually ganked in a 2 or 3 second window before they could react. I am going to guess that 10 of them were ungankable the first round, and you had to restealth and reset. I would also guess that out of the 10 players you failed to gank on the first shot, 8 of them chased you down, kept you from re-cloaking, and killed you.

The thing is, there is a cap to how much burst damage we can effectively do in a 2 or 3 second window. While a bad player is easy to gank, a good player is hard to gank. Even with snipe, even with Onslaught, a good player is going to know to dodge roll immediately/Break free, pop their heals, pop an anti-stealth pot, or throw dots on you to keep you from recloaking.

There are good players in PVP, some of them even godlike, but most are potatoes. If you're getting ganked left and right so easily, have you considered that you're just one of the potatoes? Because the truth is, potatoes are easy kills for any experienced PVPer regardless of if they are a ganker or not.

This seems to be a bit away from the point of the OPs suggestion, as he's talking about gabkers with no tel var not taking on any risk of currency loss when the gank fails.

Goregrinder

No, leave the system as it is

kringled_1 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

There's no actual risk... they lose nothing if they die?

They lose telvar, just the same as when the player they kill dies if their gank is successful. Both players in this scenario task the same risk of losing telvar upon death. The difference here is that the ganker is guaranteed to run zero defenses other than cloak and a heal. No impen, like 11k resists, no shields, no armor buffs, no evasion, nothing to help them mitigate damage if they are caught or make a mistake.

The best advice I can give anyone complaining about anything is to actually take the time to learn how the thing they are complaining about actually works. Roll a NB, run a generic gank setup, and try to gank good PVPers, I'd suggest try to gank 20 good players. Not potatoes, good players. Then out of those 20, tally up how many of them you actually ganked in a 2 or 3 second window before they could react. I am going to guess that 10 of them were ungankable the first round, and you had to restealth and reset. I would also guess that out of the 10 players you failed to gank on the first shot, 8 of them chased you down, kept you from re-cloaking, and killed you.

The thing is, there is a cap to how much burst damage we can effectively do in a 2 or 3 second window. While a bad player is easy to gank, a good player is hard to gank. Even with snipe, even with Onslaught, a good player is going to know to dodge roll immediately/Break free, pop their heals, pop an anti-stealth pot, or throw dots on you to keep you from recloaking.

There are good players in PVP, some of them even godlike, but most are potatoes. If you're getting ganked left and right so easily, have you considered that you're just one of the potatoes? Because the truth is, potatoes are easy kills for any experienced PVPer regardless of if they are a ganker or not.

This seems to be a bit away from the point of the OPs suggestion, as he's talking about gabkers with no tel var not taking on any risk of currency loss when the gank fails.

But non-gankers with no telvar take on the same risk of currency loss? Anyone that enters IC with zero telvar will lose zero telvar if their attempt to kill someone fails. If you log onto one of your characters with zero telvar, and you try to kill someone in IC, and you die, what happens?

AlnilamE

No, leave the system as it is

coop500 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

There's no actual risk... they lose nothing if they die?

If you're the first person they gank, sure.

But say they just killed someone that had 3k tel var, they see me drop down from the safe zone and go after me and I kill them, but I had 0 tel var because I was going for the daily quest. Why would I not get 750 tel var from him at this point?

kringled_1 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

There's no actual risk... they lose nothing if they die?

They lose telvar, just the same as when the player they kill dies if their gank is successful. Both players in this scenario task the same risk of losing telvar upon death. The difference here is that the ganker is guaranteed to run zero defenses other than cloak and a heal. No impen, like 11k resists, no shields, no armor buffs, no evasion, nothing to help them mitigate damage if they are caught or make a mistake.

The best advice I can give anyone complaining about anything is to actually take the time to learn how the thing they are complaining about actually works. Roll a NB, run a generic gank setup, and try to gank good PVPers, I'd suggest try to gank 20 good players. Not potatoes, good players. Then out of those 20, tally up how many of them you actually ganked in a 2 or 3 second window before they could react. I am going to guess that 10 of them were ungankable the first round, and you had to restealth and reset. I would also guess that out of the 10 players you failed to gank on the first shot, 8 of them chased you down, kept you from re-cloaking, and killed you.

The thing is, there is a cap to how much burst damage we can effectively do in a 2 or 3 second window. While a bad player is easy to gank, a good player is hard to gank. Even with snipe, even with Onslaught, a good player is going to know to dodge roll immediately/Break free, pop their heals, pop an anti-stealth pot, or throw dots on you to keep you from recloaking.

There are good players in PVP, some of them even godlike, but most are potatoes. If you're getting ganked left and right so easily, have you considered that you're just one of the potatoes? Because the truth is, potatoes are easy kills for any experienced PVPer regardless of if they are a ganker or not.

This seems to be a bit away from the point of the OPs suggestion, as he's talking about gabkers with no tel var not taking on any risk of currency loss when the gank fails.

My take on Tel Var is you only lose whatever you took out of the bank before you started out.

Tel Var you gain in IC doesn't exist until you deposit it.

And while I'm not a ganker, so I don't know how they operate, I would assume they don't just gank one person and then run back to base.

...or do they?

VaranisArano

To be clear, the risk/reward of Tel Var is the only then that distinguishes it from gold. If you can farm it from bosses with little risk of losing it to players, what's the point?

That being said, I think there could be some improvement to how players run with low and high Tel Var multipliers.

As it is, ZOS encourages players who farm Tel Var by fighting bosses to use a high multiplier to maximize the limited amounts of TV they get. These players take the risk of losing large amounts of TV and have to fight out in the open while engaged with a world boss. Any PVP player knows that's a very risky playstyle in a PVP zone.

On the flip side, a lot of players who attack from stealth (gankers and bombers) are encouraged to run low Tel Var multipliers. It's a smart tactic because then they mitigate their losses when they die (which is lots of times) while making nearly pure profit on the times they win.

So we end up with a rather uneven experience where if a Tel Var farmer kills their would-be ganker, they get very little to show for it.

So the flip side of the gold argument is that the risk/reward of Tel Var is the only thing that distinguishes it from Alliance Points.

If you can farm other players and risk very little of your own Tel Var, how is that much different from farming AP? Right now, there's not. So ZOS could look at incentivizing more playstyles to carry high TV multipliers.

coop500

Other

Gotta love people totally missing the point of the OP lol.
Should have known people rather keep the risk one sided.

Taloros

Yeah, was the same with my attempt. "Change to Telvar" seems to lead to immediate toxic rejection. "Don't take my ganking away!!!11 PvP is not PvE olol".

Goregrinder

No, leave the system as it is

AlnilamE wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

There's no actual risk... they lose nothing if they die?

If you're the first person they gank, sure.

But say they just killed someone that had 3k tel var, they see me drop down from the safe zone and go after me and I kill them, but I had 0 tel var because I was going for the daily quest. Why would I not get 750 tel var from him at this point?

kringled_1 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

There's no actual risk... they lose nothing if they die?

They lose telvar, just the same as when the player they kill dies if their gank is successful. Both players in this scenario task the same risk of losing telvar upon death. The difference here is that the ganker is guaranteed to run zero defenses other than cloak and a heal. No impen, like 11k resists, no shields, no armor buffs, no evasion, nothing to help them mitigate damage if they are caught or make a mistake.

The best advice I can give anyone complaining about anything is to actually take the time to learn how the thing they are complaining about actually works. Roll a NB, run a generic gank setup, and try to gank good PVPers, I'd suggest try to gank 20 good players. Not potatoes, good players. Then out of those 20, tally up how many of them you actually ganked in a 2 or 3 second window before they could react. I am going to guess that 10 of them were ungankable the first round, and you had to restealth and reset. I would also guess that out of the 10 players you failed to gank on the first shot, 8 of them chased you down, kept you from re-cloaking, and killed you.

The thing is, there is a cap to how much burst damage we can effectively do in a 2 or 3 second window. While a bad player is easy to gank, a good player is hard to gank. Even with snipe, even with Onslaught, a good player is going to know to dodge roll immediately/Break free, pop their heals, pop an anti-stealth pot, or throw dots on you to keep you from recloaking.

There are good players in PVP, some of them even godlike, but most are potatoes. If you're getting ganked left and right so easily, have you considered that you're just one of the potatoes? Because the truth is, potatoes are easy kills for any experienced PVPer regardless of if they are a ganker or not.

This seems to be a bit away from the point of the OPs suggestion, as he's talking about gabkers with no tel var not taking on any risk of currency loss when the gank fails.

My take on Tel Var is you only lose whatever you took out of the bank before you started out.

Tel Var you gain in IC doesn't exist until you deposit it.

And while I'm not a ganker, so I don't know how they operate, I would assume they don't just gank one person and then run back to base.

...or do they?

Nope, we hang around IC for awhile trying to get multiple ganks before we head back home.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Not quite sure what the solution is, but you are certainly onto something. I dont think I like any scenario where a ganker could take all my stones, no matter what they are carrying. You also need to be careful with any system where stones could be generated from a PVP kill. Not that you suggested it, but we cant have PVP kills add new stones into the game, it needs to be an exchange, otherwise, people would exploit it. Unlike PVE, where each kill brings in new stones to the economy.

Lets take scenario 1: A ganker grabs 10k stones from the bank and waits for the kill. I farm 3k stones by spending some time grinding in the sewers. He kills me, I lose all stones (worse for me than live). I kill him, I get 5k stones (exact same for me and ganker as live). Not sure you helped the right person here, but it does potentially incentivize the ganker to carry more stones.

In Scenario 2: with the same people. If the ganker kills me, again, he gets all my stones which, as stated is worse for me than live. If I kill him well now I only get 3k stones. Worse for me, better for the ganker. Again, who is this helping.

I tried to use numbers that could represent reality. I usually head back to deposit in the 3-5k range. If we have upper limits, the best gankers will play to them.

I think the best solution, would honestly just be to lower the % of stones lost/gained from a PVP kill. 50% is just too punishing IMO and really encourages, as you point out, opportunistic ganking by people with no skin in the game. Especially considering that efficient TelVar farming builds are going to be closer on the spectrum towards a PVE build, which wont do as well head to head against another player.

If I had the controls, I would lower the PVE death to about 35% of stones lost and PVP death to about 20%. I think this would encourage more people to actually fight vs stealth around, and wouldn't result in farm X stones, stealth, deposit, farm X stones, stealth, deposit. I would like to be able to play for a few hours in IC, and not have to make a dozen deposits if i actually want to accumulate stones at the end of it.

IAmIcehouse

Yes, I like the first idea

Goregrinder wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

There's no actual risk... they lose nothing if they die?

They lose telvar, just the same as when the player they kill dies if their gank is successful. Both players in this scenario task the same risk of losing telvar upon death. The difference here is that the ganker is guaranteed to run zero defenses other than cloak and a heal. No impen, like 11k resists, no shields, no armor buffs, no evasion, nothing to help them mitigate damage if they are caught or make a mistake.

The best advice I can give anyone complaining about anything is to actually take the time to learn how the thing they are complaining about actually works. Roll a NB, run a generic gank setup, and try to gank good PVPers, I'd suggest try to gank 20 good players. Not potatoes, good players. Then out of those 20, tally up how many of them you actually ganked in a 2 or 3 second window before they could react. I am going to guess that 10 of them were ungankable the first round, and you had to restealth and reset. I would also guess that out of the 10 players you failed to gank on the first shot, 8 of them chased you down, kept you from re-cloaking, and killed you.

The thing is, there is a cap to how much burst damage we can effectively do in a 2 or 3 second window. While a bad player is easy to gank, a good player is hard to gank. Even with snipe, even with Onslaught, a good player is going to know to dodge roll immediately/Break free, pop their heals, pop an anti-stealth pot, or throw dots on you to keep you from recloaking.

There are good players in PVP, some of them even godlike, but most are potatoes. If you're getting ganked left and right so easily, have you considered that you're just one of the potatoes? Because the truth is, potatoes are easy kills for any experienced PVPer regardless of if they are a ganker or not.

For starters, this is no different for gankers as it is for other players. Ultimately, it's probably better for those that hide in stealth as you'll have more valuable targets.

Second, NBs have the armor buff from your cloak/veiled strike. And you always have the ability to run Evasion (Shuffle/Phant. Escape). If you choose not to run them, then that's a you problem.

Thirdly, dots do not keep you out of stealth.

Lastly, ganking doesn't mean being pure glass cannon and being useless as soon as someone notices you. All it requires is you getting the drop on someone while you're fully buffed and they aren't.

This all sounds like you're unfamiliar with the class

Starlight_Whisper

Fischblut wrote: »

I would simply reduce amount of tel var lost upon death. Make it 10% loss, and IC will become truly welcoming place

This would dynamically change things. Even 25 percent would be welcome

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Goregrinder wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

There's no actual risk... they lose nothing if they die?

They lose telvar, just the same as when the player they kill dies if their gank is successful. Both players in this scenario task the same risk of losing telvar upon death. The difference here is that the ganker is guaranteed to run zero defenses other than cloak and a heal. No impen, like 11k resists, no shields, no armor buffs, no evasion, nothing to help them mitigate damage if they are caught or make a mistake.

The best advice I can give anyone complaining about anything is to actually take the time to learn how the thing they are complaining about actually works. Roll a NB, run a generic gank setup, and try to gank good PVPers, I'd suggest try to gank 20 good players. Not potatoes, good players. Then out of those 20, tally up how many of them you actually ganked in a 2 or 3 second window before they could react. I am going to guess that 10 of them were ungankable the first round, and you had to restealth and reset. I would also guess that out of the 10 players you failed to gank on the first shot, 8 of them chased you down, kept you from re-cloaking, and killed you.

The thing is, there is a cap to how much burst damage we can effectively do in a 2 or 3 second window. While a bad player is easy to gank, a good player is hard to gank. Even with snipe, even with Onslaught, a good player is going to know to dodge roll immediately/Break free, pop their heals, pop an anti-stealth pot, or throw dots on you to keep you from recloaking.

There are good players in PVP, some of them even godlike, but most are potatoes. If you're getting ganked left and right so easily, have you considered that you're just one of the potatoes? Because the truth is, potatoes are easy kills for any experienced PVPer regardless of if they are a ganker or not.

Really good gankers, first and foremost, pick their targets with great care. Trying to gank 20 good players is something most gankers will never do in real life because they are smarter than that. Fighting a ganker is like fighting an alligator. If you fight on their terms, you will lose. If they fight on yours, you will win. I dont mind gankers at all TBH. Have I been successfully ganked? Sure, anyone who says they havent either hasnt played that much or is lying through their teeth, but I generally like being ganked because I will ususally win.

That said, you are missing two points. One, the system as it stands now allows gankers to have very little skin in the game for significant reward. Unlike a PVE telvar grinder that is encouraged to carry stones for the multipliers, a ganker is encourage to carry none.

I also dont ever want to hear that a ganker has no defense. Cloak is arguably the best defensive tool in the game outside of a dueling scenario where a winner must be determined. A ganker is perfectly fine with a draw. Unless directly countered immediately (talking detect pots or mage light), cloak allows you to kill or simply dip out of the fight. If a ganker attacks a good player and that player survives their burst, they usually just disappear and look for another target.

Pepegrillos

Yes, I like the first idea

People claim the system is "fine as it is" while the entire zone has been dead for a long while. Save for some scarce late night skirmishes, a few lone farmers and gankers here and there, and the yearly revival of MYM, nothing goes on in IC.

IC in its current state is just a lot of wasted work. I wonder if the devs will leave IC as it is for much longer.

I wouldn't be surprised if they just caved to the constant requests by pve players to rework the zone around their playstyle. If those of us who pvp haven't managed to use it (or at least support solutions that keep the pvp in and revive the whole thing), maybe the pvers will.

AlnilamE

No, leave the system as it is

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I think the best solution, would honestly just be to lower the % of stones lost/gained from a PVP kill. 50% is just too punishing IMO and really encourages, as you point out, opportunistic ganking by people with no skin in the game. Especially considering that efficient TelVar farming builds are going to be closer on the spectrum towards a PVE build, which wont do as well head to head against another player.

If I had the controls, I would lower the PVE death to about 35% of stones lost and PVP death to about 20%. I think this would encourage more people to actually fight vs stealth around, and wouldn't result in farm X stones, stealth, deposit, farm X stones, stealth, deposit. I would like to be able to play for a few hours in IC, and not have to make a dozen deposits if i actually want to accumulate stones at the end of it.

I disagree. 50% gives you the choice to go back to base and deposit, or try going after the guy who killed you.

If you make it lower for PvP (therefore making it less attractive for gankers), then I'd raise it for PvE death and buff the mobs and bosses to that they can kill you more easily.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Pepegrillos wrote: »

People claim the system is "fine as it is" while the entire zone has been dead for a long while. Save for some scarce late night skirmishes, a few lone farmers and gankers here and there, and the yearly revival of MYM, nothing goes on in IC.

IC in its current state is just a lot of wasted work. I wonder if the devs will leave IC as it is for much longer.

I wouldn't be surprised if they just caved to the constant requests by pve players to rework the zone around their playstyle. If those of us who pvp haven't managed to use it (or at least support solutions that keep the pvp in and revive the whole thing), maybe the pvers will.

You are right, outside of events, that place is a ghost town. It's a shame, because some of the best times I have ever had in ESO were IC back in the day. It in theory combines fun aspects of both PVP and PVE, requires unique builds as you want a combo of both, and puts a skin in the game. In practice, it is a ghost town, sparsely populated by frustrated PVEers, the occasional mini zerg that easily dominates the whole map, and opportunistic gankers.

Goregrinder

No, leave the system as it is

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Goregrinder wrote: »

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

There's no actual risk... they lose nothing if they die?

They lose telvar, just the same as when the player they kill dies if their gank is successful. Both players in this scenario task the same risk of losing telvar upon death. The difference here is that the ganker is guaranteed to run zero defenses other than cloak and a heal. No impen, like 11k resists, no shields, no armor buffs, no evasion, nothing to help them mitigate damage if they are caught or make a mistake.

The best advice I can give anyone complaining about anything is to actually take the time to learn how the thing they are complaining about actually works. Roll a NB, run a generic gank setup, and try to gank good PVPers, I'd suggest try to gank 20 good players. Not potatoes, good players. Then out of those 20, tally up how many of them you actually ganked in a 2 or 3 second window before they could react. I am going to guess that 10 of them were ungankable the first round, and you had to restealth and reset. I would also guess that out of the 10 players you failed to gank on the first shot, 8 of them chased you down, kept you from re-cloaking, and killed you.

The thing is, there is a cap to how much burst damage we can effectively do in a 2 or 3 second window. While a bad player is easy to gank, a good player is hard to gank. Even with snipe, even with Onslaught, a good player is going to know to dodge roll immediately/Break free, pop their heals, pop an anti-stealth pot, or throw dots on you to keep you from recloaking.

There are good players in PVP, some of them even godlike, but most are potatoes. If you're getting ganked left and right so easily, have you considered that you're just one of the potatoes? Because the truth is, potatoes are easy kills for any experienced PVPer regardless of if they are a ganker or not.

For starters, this is no different for gankers as it is for other players. Ultimately, it's probably better for those that hide in stealth as you'll have more valuable targets.

Second, NBs have the armor buff from your cloak/veiled strike. And you always have the ability to run Evasion (Shuffle/Phant. Escape). If you choose not to run them, then that's a you problem.

Thirdly, dots do not keep you out of stealth.

Lastly, ganking doesn't mean being pure glass cannon and being useless as soon as someone notices you. All it requires is you getting the drop on someone while you're fully buffed and they aren't.

This all sounds like you're unfamiliar with the class

Actually I have a gankblade, and you probably haven't noticed because you don't play one, but cloak is broken right now...everything is pulling you out of cloak. Even with the armor passive, you're still running all divines trait with no impen, which is a glass cannon setup for PVP. That means no extra defenses ontop of whatever passive defenses you get for free. Try brawling on a gank build outside of cloak.

Eedat

Goregrinder wrote: »

The risk gankers take is running no defenses at all. If they get caught out of stealth, or someone pops an invis pots and opens up on them, they can't brawl so they have to run. It's a high risk high reward playstyle, and you are suggesting you take away some of that reward. I understand first hand it that getting blown up by other players can be frustrating, but you want ganking to be a high risk average reward playstyle? I'm guessing that you want your personal playstyle to be an average risk high reward playstyle?

Gankers take absolutely no risk lol. You can run around with 0 TV and get the same rewards for kills. Then you can port out with zero risk of losing your TV which is what they do. Ganking is zero risk high reward and I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that it's high risk. You risk literally nothing. Other than having having to press respawn

kringled_1

VaranisArano wrote: »

That being said, I think there could be some improvement to how players run with low and high Tel Var multipliers.

As it is, ZOS encourages players who farm Tel Var by fighting bosses to use a high multiplier to maximize the limited amounts of TV they get. These players take the risk of losing large amounts of TV and have to fight out in the open while engaged with a world boss. Any PVP player knows that's a very risky playstyle in a PVP zone.

On the flip side, a lot of players who attack from stealth (gankers and bombers) are encouraged to run low Tel Var multipliers. It's a smart tactic because then they mitigate their losses when they die (which is lots of times) while making nearly pure profit on the times they win.

So we end up with a rather uneven experience where if a Tel Var farmer kills their would-be ganker, they get very little to show for it.

So the flip side of the gold argument is that the risk/reward of Tel Var is the only thing that distinguishes it from Alliance Points.

If you can farm other players and risk very little of your own Tel Var, how is that much different from farming AP? Right now, there's not. So ZOS could look at incentivizing more playstyles to carry high TV multipliers.

This is kind of where I am - there's no real incentive to carry tel var if your plan is to get it by killing other players.

Goregrinder wrote: »

Nope, we hang around IC for awhile trying to get multiple ganks before we head back home.

Maybe you do, but I've seen more than one apparently head out of the zone (probably to bank) after a successful kill.