Are the Armor changes fair?

preevious

No

I have one main isse with them, as a DD.

Heavy armors get a movement speed penalty?
As a DD, one of my rule is "stay behind the tank. He lead, pull and I then follow and hurt things under his protection". Now, I have to stay behind a tank that'll move slower? In group content, it effecivelly lowers the movement speed of EVERYONE, since the tank have to always go first. It's a bad malus. Change it.

Also, roll dodges increased in cost for tank? Damn, that's not clever.

Sylas_Orin

No

I think medium could use some penalties. Other than that? It looks alright.

Derra

No

At first i did not like them - then i went and tested them and found them to be worse than i thought.

There is no rock paper scissors here. Heavy is just plain better than both other weights.

relentless_turnip

Other

Derra wrote: »

At first i did not like them - then i went and tested them and found them to be worse than i thought.

There is no rock paper scissors here. Heavy is just plain better than both other weights.

I agree, I think only a damage debuff on heavy would make the other 2 options stand out. I think they should lose the magic damage debuff in exchange. This makes it better for tanking in both content whilst making less viable as a DD

Edit: I even think medium should have a weakness to magic and greater damage increase through the buffs. Light should stay as it is because as it has more damage and a weakness to melee already. Then heavy should have mitigation to both melee and magic, but have a substantial damage penalty. This would be closer to rock paper scissors IMO.

Edit again: I have thought about this again.
What if medium granted 3-4% WD per piece instead of 2 and gains increased damage from magical damage as heavy does currently has.

Heavy gains equal mitigation to magic as it does to melee, but has 3-4% less damage done per piece.

Meaning heavy can survive most attackers, but can't kill them easily.
Light is strong against medium and medium is strong against light.

Stahlor

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

At first i did not like them - then i went and tested them and found them to be worse than i thought.

There is no rock paper scissors here. Heavy is just plain better than both other weights.

I agree, I think only a damage debuff on heavy would make the other 2 options stand out. I think they should lose the magic damage debuff in exchange. This makes it better for tanking in both content whilst making less viable as a DD

Edit: I even think medium should have a weakness to magic and greater damage increase through the buffs. Light should stay as it is because as it has more damage and a weakness to melee already. Then heavy should have mitigation to both melee and magic, but have a substantial damage penalty. This would be closer to rock paper scissors IMO.

Exactly, damage penalty for heavy armor would fix PVP without affecting PVE.

ketsparrowhawk

GreenHere wrote: »

Balance and fairness aside, my main feeling for armor penalties is, "...Why, though?"
"Okay, how does putting on this protective garment hurt me defensively again?" on top of all the other bonuses I'm weighing against. It seems stupid, and doesn't feel good.

I was confused about this at first. Then I realized that, of course, the garment itself gives me armor. The additional martial damage taken is subtracted from the mitigation the armor itself is giving me. So, I still take less damage than if I were naked (but more than I take currently.. in no cp at least).

Deep_01

Yes

It stays faithful to the context of "Light armor kills Heavy, Heavy tanks and kills Medium and Medium armor kills Light armor". I'm ok with the changes in that context, but think this context will be annoying in play.

Iron_Blurr

No

1. As a matter of principle armor should never INCREASE your damage taken when compared to having no armor on. The difference between armor types should be an opportunity cost. Give light armor a stronger passive that increases spell mitigation relative to the passives that heavy armor has. But dont make heavy take increased spell damage because that is stupid.
Why would a fireball or frostbite or a lightning strike hurt more in full heavy than bare skin?

2. If we are going down this road of benefits and penalties of armor types why does medium have no penalties?? How is that fair?

3. Heavy armor passives need to be buffed. Light armor has penetration and crit per piece of armor as offensive stats and mag sustain passives and spell resist. Medium has damage and crit per piece. It also has samina sustain and lacks bonus physical resistance.
Heavy has no offensive/damage based stat buffs yet still has mediocre passives based on sustain and resistance. In my opinion heavy armor should offer slightly more spell and physical resistance per piece in the skill lines passives. Something like 400-450 physical and spell resist per piece of heavy. Heavy should also offer some other unique passive like reduced status effect duration.
If we are saying that a fireball hurts more in heavy armor than bare skin surely it makes no sense that status effects would linger on metal armor for as long as cloth and flesh. Or better yet why does heavy armor not have a reduced chance to be inflicted with a status effect? Surely it's easier to set cloth on fire than metal? Dont even get me started on how much harder it is to poison metal than bare skin..
The bonuses and penalties of heavy armor make no sense in the context of the other two armor types. And what little benefits heavy armor passives offer are negligible when compared to the other armor types and considering the fact that they have no bonus to damage based stats.
The 2% max health per piece of heavy armor passive is more than made up for when considering the undaunted passives grant a 2% bonus to all resources. Why would you choose heavy over having 3 different armor types when you get the same health and more spell mitigation and more damage potential out of it?

TLDR:
•Give medium armor penalties.
•Buff the heavy armor passive granting physical and spell resistance to 400-450 per piece from ~360 per piece. (Keep in mind 660 resist=1% mitigation.) Light armor gives ~700 spell resistance per piece.
•Also consider buffing or adding tiny effects to other heavy armor passives since they are pretty boring and empty.

Brederode

No

Heavy armor passives nerfed, new heavy armor penalties, new Shadow Ward CP replacement already looked like a downgrade before they nerfed it even further with last weeks 6.3.2 changes. And people already wonder why it takes so long to find tank for any PvE content..

Heavy taking more (magicka) damage? Medium armor reducing block cost??? Some just make no sense. Players have been giving feedback about it since the very first patch notes and so far barely anything changed in favor of the PvE aspect of the game. Not surprising when the developers admit the sole reason of these changes existing is because of PvP. Its why I am also not expecting ZOS to change anything before the update releases. Just don’t be surprised if even less people tank in the future (me included)

sabresandiego_ESO

No

Heavy armor is just too strong in PVP and needs either a straight movement speed penalty or damage done penalty.

DT-ARR

Other

I wouldn't mind the changes if they adjusted item sets to drop in all weights. That way you could truly mix and match without sacrificing a 5 piece bonus.

I feel like this is a classic ZOS move - implement only half of a game altering change which forces players to suffer for months before they implement the 2nd half. Wish they'd just wait and do everything at once vs this slow drip method.

I'm also looking at you major/minor buff changes that were implemented solely for item sets and didn't take into account the straight gimping of many class skills...

It's been what...6 months or so since that happened and i'm still waiting on that skill audit they promised.

Sangwyne

No

It's honestly quite impressive, in a twisted sort of way, that each iteration of the PTS patch cycle has brought yet another nerf to heavy armor or tanks- I honestly didn't think they could even FIND anything more about the role to nerf, but they seemed to manage. This last update, PTS 6.3.3, saw just bugfixes to Light and Medium armor but a reduction to the damage mitigation of Heavy armor while immune to CC, from 2% per piece down to 1%. This comes right after PTS 6.3.2, which saw nerfs to the Fortification star, from 20% block mitigation down to 6%, Hardy/Elemental Defender, from 5% down to 4%, and many other stars that tanks desperately needed to cope with the increased incoming damage they will be facing next patch, and of course, that patch came after the original PTS patch that introduced 4 penalties to Heavy armor but zero to Medium, on top of many targeted nerfs to tank sustain and mitigation. Why exactly does Medium armor have zero penalties whatsoever? And yes, I read the post, it mentioned how the bonuses provided by medium armor were not as impactful as the bonuses provided by the other armor types, but I'm really struggling to see how 3% Bashing damage done per Heavy piece or 1% increased block mitigation (which raises your DR% from block from 50% to a whopping 52.5% with 5/1/1 armor, wowee ) compares to a possible 14% AOE damage reduction from Medium armor with zero drawbacks.

ESO_Nightingale

No

light is garbage now. its really dumb. not only was the light armor ability meh at best before, we will take so much more shield damage and physical damage now. we gain nothing from these changes and lose so much from them. light already felt punishing enough because it gave the least resistances, why do we need to take more damage now? what the hell?

ExistingRug61

Deep_01 wrote: »

It stays faithful to the context of "Light armor kills Heavy, Heavy tanks and kills Medium and Medium armor kills Light armor". I'm ok with the changes in that context, but think this context will be annoying in play.

I'm not sure this context is actually achieved though.

Medium being tied to Stamina damage types means it has the advantage over Light but a disadvantage against Heavy seems to follow fairly obviously. (as it doesn't matter if the Heavy user is Stam or Mag due to Medium having no weakness/resistance)

But Light, being tied to Magicka damage types doesn't necessarily have an advantage of Heavy - rather it depends on whether the Heavy user is Stamina or Magicka, as Heavy can be used with both. In the former case Light doesn't actually have an advantage as the Heavy Stam user also gets bonus damage against the Light user.

Furthermore, even if we consider Light's damage dealing passives: 1) the Penetration Light gets is less than the extra Armour Heavy gets just from the base armour pieces plus the armour passive, meaning that a Heavy user still mitigates more damage from the Light user than the reverse. 2) The Crit Light gets is either unused in the case of Malacath or procs or at best is a very small damage boost, which is still actually a lesser damage boost than the remaining extra mitigation Heavy gets just from armour even after the penetration from Light is considered. So the Light user, despite their damage passives, will deal less damage to the heavy user than the reverse given all other things (gear etc) being equal. And thats before even worrying about the Heavy mitigation while CC immune.
(Obviously this is ignoring the other passives each gets in terms of regen, healing received and core skill costs but rather focusing simply on the damage and mitigation components)

As such I think the idea that Light beats Heavy isn't really necessarily a given in the case of Stam Heavy. The changes do suggest it should have an advantage against Mag Heavy though.

So this is where implementation of the paper scissor rock idea falls down a bit. It's good in theory, but in practice they have made "rock beats scissors" and "scissors beats paper" but then only got "paper sometimes beats rock, but also sometimes rock beats paper".

And due to players seeking the strongest option, this actually has potentially flow on consequences for the other amour type if this "paper scissors rock" effect isn't actually achieved.

ie: if Light doesn't actually have an advantage over Heavy to the same degree that Heavy has over Medium or Medium does over Light, then it follows:
1) Players are discouraged from playing in Light, so its usage rate drops.
2) Conversely, the usage rate of Heavy likely increases.
3) This then discourages Medium players as they are more likely to encounter a disfavourable matchup than a favourable one. So they may switch up as well. And given Light's lack of an advantage, they are most likely to also migrate to Heavy.

Resulting in a feedback loop that discourages both Light AND Medium, even though it was only Light that had the lack of advantage.
(Its obviously a bit more complicated than that in reality due to the existence of players who prefer a specific armour type regardless of its strength, the ability to mix armour, and also differences between mag and stam heavy variants, but you get the idea)

Yamenstein

No

I'm concerned for PvP. I already find that I'm dominated by stamina players. Sounds like I'll be dominated by noob stamina players and pro's now 🙁

Firstmep

No

These bonuses and penalties should've been tested during an off cycle pts, like with heavy and light attack changes.
The cp overhaul alone, coupled with changes to some weapons etc, should be enough for a smaller update like this.. You guys are once again trying to change everything at once, which makes it more difficult to test individual changes.
On top of it, I feel like this new system is just not necessary at all.

Yamenstein wrote: »

I'm concerned for PvP. I already find that I'm dominated by stamina players. Sounds like I'll be dominated by noob stamina players and pro's now 🙁

Join the meta for mag, heavy armor and proc sets.
Light armor can stay in Pve for all I care at this point, it definetly feels like that's what ZOS wants..

sabresandiego_ESO

No

Heavy armor became even more god mode in pvp than it already is.

DreadDaedroth

No

Even worse

xaraan

No

NO

The armor changes are horrible.

I get that they need a rework, but come on, this is a swing and a miss.

Let's look at what/why needs changing about armor currently on live:

Heavy armor users and dominating PvP, usually on stam builds.

The crit you lose can be made up for by using Malacath which comes with zero draw backs as you don't give up any considerable crit in heavy as a penalty for the bonus damage.

Is there anything wrong with being tanky in general in the game? IMO no, the problem is doing damage while being tanky. Being a tank in pvp, while sometimes useless can be very useful in some situations on its own, they should not be able to burst anyone down in a tank build.

How to fix this? Not with the changes they made, they in fact make it worse as now a stam build in heavy will do more damage to a magic user in light armor while they amount they will take won't effect them as much as someone in less armor value will take as bonus damage.

What needs to happen: A 4% per piece of heavy armor maim (less damage done). So that if you are wearing a full set of heavy, you are essentially negating the benefit of malacath (or wearing it to make up for the loss of damage). They take no additional damage from magic attacks either. They are allowed to be tanks, but just tanks, not go-to damage dealers.

If we are going to keep the "LA takes more physical damage", then the reverse should be true to stam in medium, they should take more from magic. I don't love either of these however and would drop them entirely, but if keeping them, then they should cancel each other out. (I'd also add crit resist to medium armor).

That right there would fix a lot of the pvp problems without a huge effect on pve tanking wise. Tanks could be tanks, not damage dealers and damage dealers would be more likely to wear light/medium, so TTK wouldn't be as crazy unless you were fighting an actual tank with no damage.

delkurz

xaraan wrote: »

What needs to happen: A 4% per piece of heavy armor maim (less damage done). So that if you are wearing a full set of heavy, you are essentially negating the benefit of malacath (or wearing it to make up for the loss of damage). They take no additional damage from magic attacks either. They are allowed to be tanks, but just tanks, not go-to damage dealers.

100% this

sabresandiego_ESO

No

People in mostly heavy armor run around the battlefield just as fast, at max movespeed, as med/light armor wearers. The silly 1% sprint speed reduction will do nothing to change that. In addition, the heavy armor wearers do massive damage. The pvp balance of armors is absolutely horrible. And its worse in nocp because at least with the new cp, light and medium wearers can slot some defensive perks. But in nocp, heavy just absolutely dominates.

Rungar

Yes

like most problematic areas of the game heavy armor is a problem because of the free damage problem eso has that puts the game at odds with its founding principle: resources determine everything.

there are two big offenders and both serve to elevate heavy armor.

1) free damage from proc sets. Proc sets should cost ultimate based on the type of proc. The more proc sets you use the more problematic ultimate generation becomes which is perfect for the heavy armor problem since heavy armor relies on ultimate burst in many cases.

2) the second source is free damage from light and heavy attacks. These are more difficult to deal with because they are default attacks. The solution here is to put both on the gcd making their cost something else that you could not do during that time.

most of the games problems revolve around them not sticking to the principles.

YandereGirlfriend

No

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Balance and fairness aside, my main feeling for armor penalties is, "...Why, though?"
"Okay, how does putting on this protective garment hurt me defensively again?" on top of all the other bonuses I'm weighing against. It seems stupid, and doesn't feel good.

I was confused about this at first. Then I realized that, of course, the garment itself gives me armor. The additional martial damage taken is subtracted from the mitigation the armor itself is giving me. So, I still take less damage than if I were naked (but more than I take currently.. in no cp at least).

A light sash actually hurts your overall resistances though: 523 Armor - 660 (1%) Martial Resistance = -137 Martial Resistance.

Rex-Umbra

No

Medium is too OP now

DT-ARR

Other

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

GreenHere wrote: »

Balance and fairness aside, my main feeling for armor penalties is, "...Why, though?"
"Okay, how does putting on this protective garment hurt me defensively again?" on top of all the other bonuses I'm weighing against. It seems stupid, and doesn't feel good.

I was confused about this at first. Then I realized that, of course, the garment itself gives me armor. The additional martial damage taken is subtracted from the mitigation the armor itself is giving me. So, I still take less damage than if I were naked (but more than I take currently.. in no cp at least).

A light sash actually hurts your overall resistances though: 523 Armor - 660 (1%) Martial Resistance = -137 Martial Resistance.

This is a hilarious oversight.

If LA is going to continue to be so weak than they need to update the damage to compensate. +1% overall damage per piece of LA worn. combined with someones suggestion above of a negative % damage per piece of HA worn.

Zodiarkslayer

Yes

Balance is restored.

SshadowSscale

No

All I can see this doing is forcing magicka users to either switch to stam or go a 3 heavy 3 light and 1 medium setup wich sucks I wish the martial damage penalty could get changed or better yet removed considering medium does not even have any penaltiea but some nice and insane bonusses

Septimus_Magna

No

I think some changes make sense but others are pretty weird. Light armor already takes more damage from attacks because of the low armor rating, adding additional martial damage taken seems over the top. The nerf to spell crit without gaining something else in terms of outgoing damage also feels out of place, light armor is turning into a glass watergun, low resistance and low outgoing damage.