Are the Armor changes fair?

Starlight_Whisper

Light Armor Bonuses

Reduces your damage taken from “Magical” (Magic, Flame, Frost, and Shock Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn
Increases your Movement Speed while Sneaking by 5% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Break Free by 5% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Bash by 3% per piece worn

Light Armor Penalties

Increases your damage taken from “Martial” (Physical, Poison, Disease, and Bleed Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn
Increases the cost of Block by 3% per piece worn
Decreases your damage done with Bash by 1% per piece worn

Medium Armor Bonuses

Reduces the cost of Sprint by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Sneak by 5% per piece worn
Reduces the cost of Block by 3% per piece worn
Reduces your damage taken from Area of Effect Attacks by 2% for 2 seconds after you Roll Dodge
Increases your Movement Speed by 2% while immune to crowd control

Heavy Armor Bonuses

Reduces your damage taken from Martial attacks by 1% per piece worn
Increases the amount of damage blocked by 1% per piece worn
Increases damage done with Bash by 3% per piece worn
Reduces your damage taken while immune to crowd control by 2% per piece worn

Heavy Armor Penalties

Increases your damage taken from Magical attacks by 1% per piece worn
Reduces the Movement Speed bonus of Sprint by 1% per piece worn
Increases the cost of Roll Dodge by 3% per piece worn
Increases the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 10% per piece worn (making you easier to detect)

Rungar

Yes

At first I did not like them but the more I think about it the more I like it.

Faded

Other

My only objection, and it's not a very strong one, is to this:

Increases your damage taken from “Martial” (Physical, Poison, Disease, and Bleed Damage) attacks by 1% per piece worn

since getting hit harder by "martial" attacks is intrinsic to walking around in the least protective armor already. And make up your minds if you're going to require magicka builds to fight in melee range or punish them for doing so, please. LA having anything to do with bash is puzzling, but... ok.

It's amusing they didn't even bother with a pro forma penalty for medium armor. All else looks good, I guess we'll see. Glad to see bonuses that come with penalties attached. Racials should come with one, too.

Stahlor

In pvp:
Light armour will get even more slaughtered in Elder Stamina Online. Not only will they receive more physical damage, they take even more when blocking.
Medium Armour will be king.

In pve: They are going to hit tanks even more. It will be a mess in some trials. On pts they already started tanking some content in light armour.

the1andonlyskwex

No

Heavy being weak to magical attacks is horrible for PvE, and medium not having any penalties just makes it overpowered.

People keep saying that medium doesn't have any penalties because its bonuses are worse, but I just don't see it. If you ignore light armor's strength against magical attacks (which is balanced by its weakness to martial attacks), I would rather have the medium bonuses than the light ones.

It's clear that part of what's going on is that ZOS is trying to break the pattern of light and medium being mag/stam mirrors of each other, but it just doesn't work when the entire rest of the game is balanced around that relationship.

ne.ga.kurai_ESO

Stahlor wrote: »

In pvp...Medium Armour will be king.

I'm personally loving the Medium changes, but overall this reenforces the Heavy / Malacath meta. I don't think we're going to see a huge swing to Medium dominant builds, especially when Heavy will now get some Weapon Damage % mods.

honey_badger82

No

I can agree on the roll dodge penalty for heavy armor as much as I don't like it, it makes sense. What I think makes sense in addition to its other bonuses is for heavy to also have a reduced block cost buff. It would be easier to brace with the extra weight and strength of the armor backing you. 2% per piece would be fair.

lillybit

No

Just doesn't seem to make sense together with the rest of the game. My mag characters aren't suddenly going to start wearing heavy because all the best sets are light. At best they might wear 2x heavy monster sets but 1% each way doesn't seem worth losing the undaunted passive. It's not forcing diversity, just punishing playstyles.

Plus if you're going to have penalties it should be across the board, not excluding 1/3. I don't get their reasoning for not adding any to medium: even if you argue they don't gain much, they could still have comparable penalties that don't take much away. It's not balanced to just to do away with them.

relentless_turnip

Other

Of my experience testing on PTS I would say heavy is still strongest. Malacath makes it so tbh and the crazy mitigation it gets after a stun 😬
That said I like the changes and what they tried to achieve and light hits really hard, medium feel faster than before, but I feel heavy needs a damage penalty to make the other armor types stand out.

In keeping with the new changes maybe malacath grants 4% per piece of medium/light and heavy only grants 2%.

Without malacath heavy would other wise be sacrificing this amount of damage via it's lack of crit and damage passives.

DreadDaedroth

No

No it's not fair making tanks even more slow...
It's not fair having only 2 armour types with penalties...
It's not fair for armour types to take more damage than being naked...

Starlight_Whisper

Stahlor wrote: »

In pvp:
Light armour will get even more slaughtered in Elder Stamina Online. Not only will they receive more physical damage, they take even more when blocking.
Medium Armour will be king.

In pve: They are going to hit tanks even more. It will be a mess in some trials. On pts they already started tanking some content in light armour.

Is it because medium has no penalties? Also why light amour on tanks?

Vetixio

No

The -magic resist should go on medium armor and heavy armor should get +1% magic/physical resist per piece. Its ridiculous medium armor has no penalties. Light armor is already the squishiest armor type and will now take even more damage from all the stamtards in Cyrodiil. Heavy's penalties are a bit too extreme and if anything the AoE damage reduction from medium should go onto heavy.

Foto1

No

I think the heavy armor will become even stronger

spacefracking

No

The bonuses and penalties are incredibly minor. The only effect of any of these things are the 5 piece armor active ability and armor value. The champion points this patch are largely irrelevant. 50 cp for 150 spell/wrap damage?

Sounds like ya'll better git gud at the game instead of wearing crimson, heavy, syvarra's, etc. The bonuses are so minor that the only thing that's going to save anyone is skill.

MasterSpatula

The theory behind it all is solid.

in execution? Good grief, no. PVE Heavy Armor tanking does not need this hit, while Light Armor in PVP users have been given an advantage they'll never get to use because they'll be slaughtered just by looking at them funny. Light Armor already had ample disadvantages in PVP.

GreenHere

Other

Balance and fairness aside, my main feeling for armor penalties is, "...Why, though?"

The downsides of any given armor type should mainly be the opportunity cost of not wearing the other types. Bonuses that each armor weight provides should be balanced in a way that makes them just a better choice for this or that. I don't want to have to mentally juggle, "Okay, how does putting on this protective garment hurt me defensively again?" on top of all the other bonuses I'm weighing against. It seems stupid, and doesn't feel good.

I'd like them to find a more elegant way to reign in the Heavy Armor juggernaut meta than just tacking on a bunch of +'s and -'s to each armor piece/weight. It just doesn't seem like a good solution to me.

Dracane

No

Fair would be if Medium armor did not get 5 benefits like light and heavy because it has no drawbacks. Its movement speed and aoe damage reduction should either get removed, or it deserves penalties too.

I am also under the impression that all medium armor benefits are entirely useful to the playstyle, where light and heavy both have benefits that actually have no use in combat. For example sneak speed and bash cost reduction for light armor and bash damage for heavy armor.

So in reality, light and heavy both have 3 real benefits while medium armor has at least 4, with no penalties.

mikey_reach

Yes

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

No it's not fair making tanks even more slow...
It's not fair having only 2 armour types with penalties...
It's not fair for armour types to take more damage than being naked...

Naked meta confirmed.

tomofhyrule

Other

I like the idea of armor having bonuses and penalties, I just don't agree with the specific ones they chose.

Heavy having movement penalties makes sense. Yeah, it's obnoxious that you can't sprint everywhere then, but it makes a lot of sense that if you're carting around an extra 100lb of armor, you probably can't run as fast or as long. I'll buy it. Even the dodge roll penalty I'll take, but I'd like them to nerf some mechanics that require dodge rolls like the constant barely telegraphed bleeds from the gryphons in vCR.

As for the damage, I think they're way off the mark. You shouldn't take more damage from being naked than you should from having something on - I think it's only the sash and gloves that have that issue (otherwise it's mitigated by the armor rating), so that should be a set point. After thinking about it with numbers instead of just odd percentages, I'll admit it makes sense - a robe gives [x] armor on live, where on PTS it'll give [x+y] against spells and [x-y] against stam. I can buy that. I don't mind that light should protect from mag attacks better than from physical, I just think medium should have been the opposing one there. Heavy should have gotten +defense for all attacks at the expense of mobility and damage.

As for the sneakiness, It's fine that heavy has a detection nerf and medium has a buff for stealth.

The other big issue here is that it doesn't really seem to be pointed in a certain direction. The current changes are really painful for PvE tanks, of which there is already a shortage in game, and it just makes it a much steeper learning curve for new players since they won't have the CP to mitigate the penalties. Conversely, since PvP is a heavy/stam meta, this current set of bonuses/penalties are only making heavy armor more necessary in PvP.

If they wanted to break the PvP heavy meta without affecting PvE tanks, heavy should instead get a damage nerf, a crit resist nerf, a stam penalty for bunny hopping, or a nerf to breaking CC. It shouldn't have a buff for being CC immune at all since most people walk around Cyrodiil immune to CC from immo pots or breaking free. This will just make PvP more tanky without changing the meta. If they also want to promote other armor weights, light could get other bonuses like a buff to damage shields or enchants to help more people want to run magic in PvP (and therefore use magic damage against the heavy armored people)

If I made the bonuses, here's what I'd do:

• Light Bonus: + mag resist, + shield strength, + armor enchant strength,
• Light Penalty: - phys resist, + block cost, - dmg blocked
• Med Bonus: + phys resist, - sneak/sprint/break free/roll cost, + sprint speed, - fall dmg
• Med Penalty: - mag resist
• Heavy Bonus: - block cost, + dmg blocked, + resist when not moving
• Heavy Penalty: + sneak/sprint/break free/roll cost, - sprint speed, + stam cost for jump, + fall dmg, -dmg done,

Yeah, I'm sure there's more, but this seems like a start - a lot of the med bonuses and heavy penalties here are basically movement flavor. Basically, I'd envision light armor as your wizard robes so they're good with magic... but it's just cloth so nothing against physical stuff. Medium is the slippery rogue armor so it's focus is mobility, and heavy's the one for being a brick wall on the battlefield. I also don't think heavy needs a '+ all resist' since that's baked into the armor rating so they could just boost the rating for that. I like the idea of a resistance bonus when not moving though to really drive home the tanking.

Basically, I think a 7 heavy tank should be able to stand up to [insert trial boss here] without flinching, but really can't do much other than hold up a shield. I know people disagree with nerfing movement speed for tanks, but as a tank I wouldn't mind. In a dungeon, I agree that people should wait for the tank to come in in heavy, not that heavy should get a speed boost since people can't be bothered to wait. I know in real life, I'd rather not engage an enemy if I knew a shield wall was on its way. And let's face it: you pull it, you tank it. If a heavy is in PvP, they should be a glacier going across the battlefield and hit like a wet noodle - if one ends up being a scroll runner, they wouldn't really die unless they were zerged, but it'd take a few hours for them to hoof it through enemy territory. I'd like the see the medium be more like what the current heavy is in PvP - jumpy, slippery, but they should go down a lot easier than your standard juggernauts. And light should stay back to avoid getting their clothes torn being in the fray, but they've got more magicka and enchantments to deal with.

And in terms of the rock-paper-scissors they're looking for, that would mean that each of the three actually has strengths against the other two - heavy can't really catch up to the jumpy medium or faraway light, but it can stand up to their attacks for a while while they just waste resources. Medium can dodge attacks from the others, but it's easy to tire out against heavy and they can get extra damage from mages. Light has the range advantage and has mag and shields for days, but can be stomped flat if they get caught.

Koronach

Heavy taking more magic damage I can only assume what they were thinking. Maybe like you get hit with fire magic the metal armor heats up and keeps burning you. Frost the armor gets really cold and also can burn and do dmg from frostbite. Lighting well yeah metal is a conductor of electricity so it will spread through the suit of armor shocking the hell out of you. Yeah I don't know that's just my guess.

master_vanargand

No

Heavy Armor will be the king of PvP.
Its very strong bonus and negligible penalty.

Grandchamp1989

No

They completely missed the ball on heavy armor.

More dmg taken from magical attacks?
Slower speed?
Waaaay higher roll dodge cost?

Who does that punish exclusively? OH yeah... PVE Tanks.. The guys that barely exist in the game as is.

If they want to add penalties to heavy armor here is an idea:

Make it so your can be REALLY tanky... But can barely do damage.
How about instead of that 21% nerf to roll dodge.. you Instead add that 21% penalty nerf to weapon and spell damage when wearing heavy armor?

That way it's no longer attractive in PvP but PvE tanks aren't getting nerfed, on top of the unfair CP 2.0 changes.

Starlight_Whisper

Dracane wrote: »

Fair would be if Medium armor did not get 5 benefits like light and heavy because it has no drawbacks. Its movement speed and aoe damage reduction should either get removed, or it deserves penalties too.

I am also under the impression that all medium armor benefits are entirely useful to the playstyle, where light and heavy both have benefits that actually have no use in combat. For example sneak speed and bash cost reduction for light armor and bash damage for heavy armor.

So in reality, light and heavy both have 3 real benefits while medium armor has at least 4, with no penalties.

Bash cost reduction in tanks would give tanks option not to slot destro staff to proc off balance...or better yet give them something for off balance

Starlight_Whisper

MasterSpatula wrote: »

The theory behind it all is solid.

in execution? Good grief, no. PVE Heavy Armor tanking does not need this hit, while Light Armor in PVP users have been given an advantage they'll never get to use because they'll be slaughtered just by looking at them funny. Light Armor already had ample disadvantages in PVP.

Light amour could use more speed compared other two types?

Sanctum74

No

Sure they’re fair if you wear medium or heavy.

ApostateHobo

No

Light armor really does not need to take even more martial damage. It already offers the least protection out of all of them. Might as well run around naked at this point because light armor users are going to get deleted as soon as they step foot in pvp.

Sangwyne

No

Light armor has 5 bonuses. Medium armor has 5 bonuses. Heavy armor has only 4. What gives? Not only that, but heavy armor has the MOST penalties of all the types, and they're nerfing the heavy armor passives next patch to boot. Medium armor doesn't even have any drawbacks; seems like someone at ZOS has an agenda. And sure, the nerfs to detection radius, move speed, and roll dodge cost on heavy armor are "thematic" and "realistic", but I'm sure many people don't play a fantasy game for realism, they play for fun, and these nerfs target the enjoyment and playability of heavy armor, on top of the nerfs to its mechanical benefits. I really hope they add another bonus to heavy armor; it could even be "thematic" or for flavor instead of a meaningful buff, to bring it up to par with the 5 bonuses on the other types, and maybe remove one of the drawbacks to wearing heavy, such as the nerf to sprint speed, because that honestly just detracts from the feel of the game and doesn't really matter in terms of actual balance.

Glaciercold

No

These changes make armor combination unnecessarily complex.

Sahidom

Other

I would consider adjusting the movement buff under CC immunity by 3% up from 2%.

Ryuvain

Other

Looks decently balanced except light armor. It's just going to die even faster since it's taking even more damage while having pathetic armor.

kalunte

No

they are not fair at all because magicka toons gets tweaks to be more stamina friendly through cost reduction of all generic stamina skills which dont require any slot to be used, i'm obvisouly talking about block, sprint, rolldodge and breakfree while stamina toons is just left aside with their magicka issues which requires to slot a skill and on top of that they are getting scrwed by having all them base generic skills to be more expensive.

the heavy armor part will maybe annoy pve tanks but not pvp dudes.