Why do you like dark elves?

tuxon

Their lore

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH8xzJcbgyo

Syldras

Their lore

VaranisArano wrote: »

I am, however, extremely wary of players who deny, minimize, or justify the racism, xenophobia, slavery, and supremacist teaching of those races as part of their roleplaying...especially when they frequently seem to glorify or revel in those aspects, coupled with the manifest unwillingness to say those things are morally wrong in the real world

Which sane person of today would condone real life slavery? To me, it's so self-evident that roleplaying someone in a (pseudo-)historical scenario as a person with a respective way of thinking (which is always shaped by your surroundings, upbringing and traditions) ≠ real world ethical beliefs.

Tommy_The_Gun

Other

Iluvrien wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Is it wrong of me to kinda be.... wary? Of people who are into Dunmer lore? I mean the race is very into racism and slavery and stuff... Is that why you guys like them?

I guess this is pretty much the reason why I kinda don't like them. Other parts of their lore are cool. Dunmeri great houses, each having their own "thing" (Telvanni mages, Redoran warriors, Hlaalu rouges / assassins etc.). Tribunal is also nice part of Dark Elves lore.

But, what ruins them for me is their "slavery" culture. How they treat others (lore wise). One can even think that they are worse than Molag Bal himself ...

So overall, Dark Elves could be pretty nice, but the "slavery" part kinda places a big "nope" for me.

This view honestly interests me.

I mean, slavery was banned with the formation of the pact. The only Great House that didn’t sign up to this was House Telvanni. So the majority of Dunmer don’t engage in slavery, but the minority that do make all of them a big nope?

Are you misanthropic for similar reasons?

I was talking "overall" about this.

We know that further away in the time-line, when Pact is disbanded because war ends, all Dunmers go back to using slave labour (it becomes legal again). Even when TES IV Oblivion and later TES V Skyrim takes place, not so long after we can still hear NPCs conversation, saying that Dunmers in their homeland still treat others (mostly Khajiits & Argonians) as if they still were in 3rd era.

paulsimonps

A mixture of the above

My wife made a good point, so if we who like Dunmer are secretly racist does that mean that those who like Bosmers are all secretly cannibals? Makes as much sense.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour

Their appearence

We're hot!

coop500

Other

VaranisArano wrote: »

I like the Dunmer. I like the Altmer.

I am, however, extremely wary of players who deny, minimize, or justify the racism, xenophobia, slavery, and supremacist teaching of those races as part of their roleplaying...especially when they frequently seem to glorify or revel in those aspects, coupled with the manifest unwillingness to say those things are morally wrong in the real world or the unwillingness to consider the situation from the point of view of Dunmer/Altmer victims.

Its okay to like problematic things. That doesn't mean there aren't problems that shouldn't be glorified.

Maybe its my D&D roleplaying background speaking here, but I can accept a great deal of in-character nastiness, if you are willing to act, converse, and debate like a decent person out-of-character. Acknowledging out-of-character that slavery, racism, xenophobia, and supremacist actions are bad seems like a really low bar to clear.

Dunmer/Altmer fans who won't get "out-of-character" long enough to acknowledge the harm those races do to other in-universe or the harm those beliefs/actions have done to others in the real world skeeve me out. I suppose the ones who aren't outright trolls and edgelords will take that as a compliment to their roleplaying, but truth be told, I pity them. It takes a certain amount if commitment to roleplay a jerk in-character to such an extent that other roleplayers are left feeling like someone is an out-of-character jerk, but they manage it.

This honestly. I'm not saying ALL Dunmer fans are like this, but with how popular they are it does worry me a little... ? Like I'm sorry if that's offensive but it worries me when people embrace these things.

Lots of sarcastic comments on this thread that totally take the concept out of proportion. There's having normal interest in dark elf culture and stuff and then there's acting like it's 100% cool and nothing is wrong with roleplaying it with WAY too much glee.

morrowjen

A mixture of the above

coop500 wrote: »

Is it wrong of me to kinda be.... wary? Of people who are into Dunmer lore? I mean the race is very into racism and slavery and stuff... Is that why you guys like them?

I would think that white supremacists would be drawn more to Nords given the IRL coopting of Old Norse mythology by those groups but tbh, I find your question fairly offensive. Presupposing that someone is drawn to x or y fantasy culture because they're 'into racism'? It really doesn't get much worse.

Jaimeh

Their appearence

I haven't played the previous games, and I don't like aspects of their culture, the slavery, and the living gods religion, plus it seems like a society of duplicity, scheeming, and having to watch your back constantly. There's also some interesting things about them, like their mesh of magic and technology, for instance, and their architecture. But the reason I like them is because I think they make attractive looking characters/NPCs, so yeah their looks, even if that's shallow

VaranisArano

Syldras wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I am, however, extremely wary of players who deny, minimize, or justify the racism, xenophobia, slavery, and supremacist teaching of those races as part of their roleplaying...especially when they frequently seem to glorify or revel in those aspects, coupled with the manifest unwillingness to say those things are morally wrong in the real world

Which sane person of today would condone real life slavery? To me, it's so self-evident that roleplaying someone in a (pseudo-)historical scenario as a person with a respective way of thinking (which is always shaped by your surroundings, upbringing and traditions) ≠ real world ethical beliefs.

Syldras, I'm not talking about you. You've already said that "slavery is evil."

It may be hard for you to believe that I've encountered posters who won't clear that low bar in otherwise non-roleplaying, objective conversations over Dunmer slavery or the 4th Era Thalmor, but I have and I find it deeply unpleasant. I'm never sure if its trollishness, edgelordiness, or just being too deeply invested in their roleplay persona, but whatever it is, its not respectful of the other real players having that discussion.

Do I think they support real life slavery?
No. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Do I think they are acting like a jerk for deliberately refusing to clear that low bar of saying, out-of-character, that their in-character beliefs/ideologies are evil when asked or when the harm done is pointed out, out-of-character?
Yeah.

That's just not respectful of the real players behind the roleplaying characters.
Nor is it very respectful to bring a roleplaying persona to an objective, out of character discussion over the topic to derail it by roleplaying slavery/elven supremacy apologia.


Now, maybe you think that their good intentions should be assumed, as clearly no one would actually support such things as Dunmer slavery and Altmer xenophobia except if they were roleplaying?

I'd agree, if those players would clear the low, low bar of condemning those out-of-character when other players ask or point out the harm done by those ideologies, in an out-of-character discussion.

You've condemned it! Great!
The players I'm thinking of refused. I'm not going to apologize for thinking that they are, at best, acting like disrespectful jerks.

Elo106

Their lore

coop500 wrote: »

I'm not saying ALL Dunmer fans are like this, but with how popular they are it does worry me a little... ? Like I'm sorry if that's offensive but it worries me when people embrace these things.

Lots of sarcastic comments on this thread that totally take the concept out of proportion. There's having normal interest in dark elf culture and stuff and then there's acting like it's 100% cool and nothing is wrong with roleplaying it with WAY too much glee.

I think you are just reading way too much into this weird idea of yours, id wager most people are healthy enough to differentiate between a fantasy game and real life.

The sarcastic comments are probably cause people think you are trolling, I certainly thought so.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Their lore

paulsimonps wrote: »

My wife made a good point, so if we who like Dunmer are secretly racist does that mean that those who like Bosmers are all secretly cannibals? Makes as much sense.

I had the same thought as your wife. My three top favourite races are bosmer, imperials and argonians (With dunmer at 4th). The hell does that make me according to such a mindset?

Haquor

A mixture of the above

Varana wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

Is it wrong of me to kinda be.... wary? Of people who are into Dunmer lore? I mean the race is very into racism and slavery and stuff... Is that why you guys like them?

I'm kind of specialising in Roman Antiquity, professionally. The Romans had slaves, and still they're a fascinating society that contributed a lot to human civilisation. Slavery is a constant of human societies - including today, though a lot less so (fortunately). You can find a culture interesting, even like it, even though they had a dark side. Most civilisations have that. The Elder Scrolls is a role playing game. You play a role - i.e. someone else than yourself.

That said, the game TES3: Morrowind is basically the foundation of that whole Dark Elf allure. Never before in TES and never again has a culture been shown in similar depth and originality. Dark Elves in TES are not a copy of a real-world model (like the Nords who are, for the most part, cliché Saga Vikings), and are, in fact, very far from any culture on earth.

Thousand-year old wizards residing in mushroom towers, overlooking lava pools while an ash storm is raging, clad in chitin armour and dining on jelly made from giant insects before levitating to their study where they will conjure a dremora and explore the secrets of even more alien worlds.

Reed huts in a foggy village where red-eyed, ashen-skinned farmers grow salt rice in the damp swamps and tend to their insectoid queen who provides them with giant eggs, while fighting off predators that have either too many or too few legs, bowing their heads when passing by the manor of their lord, built from mouldy stone and with small, dark-green windows.

A priest, firm in her belief in a Living God (whom she has seen in the flesh, a few weeks ago in their annual parade), bowing to the sternly masked keepers of the peace of a militant church, a moon motionless in the sky as a constant reminder of her God's manifest power, while she is caring for the downtrodden who flock to the city in the hope of a better life, and communes with the spirits of her ancestors.

And yes, the noble lady who whips her slaves till they bleed, and afterwards leaves her home made from the shell of a giant crab to meet with shady figures in an abandoned ruin - dark, bloody red stone with crooked angles and alien protrusions - to discuss the assassination of a political rival's children because he embarrassed her in the council of their house.

The barefoot ashlander driving his herd of giant floating jellyfish, bright-blue and green and deadly poisonous when angered, through a barren wasteland of molten rock and sulfurous pools and dead trees, looking out for rogue atronachs and mindless, deformed corprus zombies and the high-pitched screams of the flying menace, passing by the technological marvels of a brass ruin where steam and souls still turn and screak.

And so much more.
Dunmer culture and lore, as shown in Morrowind, was so spectacularly and gloriously unique - with all its weirdness and flaws and nasty sides and hidden beauty - that this game still today, twenty years later, makes the Dunmer the most interesting of all of Tamriel's cultures.
It is a harsh and brutal culture. I would very much not want to live in Morrowind. But its creation is such an awesome achievement and the main reason why I love the Elder Scrolls.

Possibly my favourite post on the forums ever.

Varana

Their lore

On the other hand, Dunmer seem to attract a whole lot of stupid edgelordiness (nice word, Varanis ) who hide behind the "playing a Dunmer" thing to randomly spout deeply ... unpleasant stuff in public conversations.

You're not "roleplaying a Dark Elf" if proclaiming that Argonians should be slaves or dead, is all that you do. Or even just other random bits of hatred towards whoever. Doing just that, is not roleplaying. Unless you also play out a lot of other stuff that makes up a Dunmer person, it's showing you in a quite non-flattering light if you use "I'm a Dunmer" as an excuse to be trolling, edgy, or a wannabe edgy teenage troll.

And I can understand coop500 that this kind of behaviour makes Dunmer a bit off-putting sometimes. Or rather, humans playing Dunmer. Fantasy racism is fine in the context of the fantasy world. It does have a tendency to spill over into out-of-character interactions, sometimes, and then it's not fine. So while coop's first comment may have led to some misunderstanding, they're not entirely wrong about what they actually meant. That issue isn't really about in-game Dunmer, it's about players.

VaranisArano

Varana wrote: »

On the other hand, Dunmer seem to attract a whole lot of stupid edgelordiness (nice word, Varanis ) who hide behind the "playing a Dunmer" thing to randomly spout deeply ... unpleasant stuff in public conversations.

You're not "roleplaying a Dark Elf" if proclaiming that Argonians should be slaves or dead, is all that you do. Or even just other random bits of hatred towards whoever. Doing just that, is not roleplaying. Unless you also play out a lot of other stuff that makes up a Dunmer person, it's showing you in a quite non-flattering light if you use "I'm a Dunmer" as an excuse to be trolling, edgy, or a wannabe edgy teenage troll.

And I can understand coop500 that this kind of behaviour makes Dunmer a bit off-putting sometimes. Or rather, humans playing Dunmer. Fantasy racism is fine in the context of the fantasy world. It does have a tendency to spill over into out-of-character interactions, sometimes, and then it's not fine. So while coop's first comment may have led to some misunderstanding, they're not entirely wrong about what they actually meant. That issue isn't really about in-game Dunmer, it's about players.

Well said!

Syldras

Their lore

coop500 wrote: »

I'm not saying ALL Dunmer fans are like this, but with how popular they are it does worry me a little... ? Like I'm sorry if that's offensive but it worries me when people embrace these things.

The problem I see is your assumption: "People like Dunmer because of slavery and xenophobia". I really doubt that. It's one aspect of their culture, a cruel one from today's real life perspective, and most probably not the reason for most roleplayers to choose them.

VaranisArano wrote: »

It may be hard for you to believe that I've encountered posters who won't clear that low bar in otherwise non-roleplaying, objective conversations over Dunmer slavery or the 4th Era Thalmor, but I have and I find it deeply unpleasant. I'm never sure if its trollishness, edgelordiness, or just being too deeply invested in their roleplay persona, but whatever it is, its not respectful of the other real players having that discussion.

This. Unpleasant, annoying, screaming for attention - so I ignore them. I'm sure if they don't get emotional reactions for their behaviour anymore, they'll probably stop after some time.

Varana wrote: »

On the other hand, Dunmer seem to attract a whole lot of stupid edgelordiness (nice word, Varanis ) who hide behind the "playing a Dunmer" thing to randomly spout deeply ... unpleasant stuff in public conversations. You're not "roleplaying a Dark Elf" if proclaiming that Argonians should be slaves or dead, is all that you do. Or even just other random bits of hatred towards whoever. Doing just that, is not roleplaying.

I couldn't agree more.

Belegnole

Other

I don't like dark elves.

Sylvermynx

Other

What's not to like? Unlike orc and argonian....

Edited to add: I don't play Dunmer as being slavers. Just like I don't play Bosmer as cannibals. My people are generally "off the charts" when it comes to race-specific lore. My Dunmer and Bosmer characters generally have backstories about being raised outside their "home territories" just so I don't have to deal with icky stuff.

Danikat

Their lore

They're not my favourite race, but I like that they're not your typical generic fantasy dark elves.

Morrowind was my first TES game and I bought it knowing nothing about the world or the lore, only that a lot of people whose opinions I trusted on this matter said it was a great fantasy RPG. I was a bit discouraged when I found out it was set entirely in the dark elves land, and then quickly got very interested when I realised this was not at all what I knew as dark elves and the lore was all new to me. (Then I got very confused for a while when people kept asking me if I followed the aedra or daedra or the Tribunal Temple or the Imperial Cult and if I agreed with the idea of good and bad daedra...it took a long time to work out what all these things meant and why they were important.)

Like I said they're not my favourite to play as or one of the races I find most interesting, but they are probably my top example to other people of how TES lore is different from other fantasy settings, even if on the surface the key components are the same.

Wing

Other

morrowind fanbois.

i cannot stand dark elves actually. only ashlanders are tolerable to an extent.

i mean their home erupts, gets hit with a meteor, invaded by angry lizards. how many hints do you need that its not meant to be?

Vasoka

Their appearence

I like their females, does that count?

hexentb16_ESO

A mixture of the above

I've always liked "dark elves", even before ESO. At first it was the Dro Elves from DND because I thought they looked cool. Then it was the Night Elves in World of Warcraft because I loved everything about them and their starting zone was stunningly beautiful. Now in ESO I love the Dunmer because of all the reasons stated above.

Malkalm

Their appearence

They are hot, not much else to say for me.

GrimTheReaper45

Their lore

Funny question but it really depends on what groups of darkelves were talking about.

CWC aposle and telvanni darkelves I really like lorewise

Now the rest of the darkelf population, they are actually one of my least favorite races. Quality lore but gods are they just the worst.

First they break away from the highelves because they want to worship all their ancestors. Then they get trinimac killed or turned into malacath and a bunch of highelves turned into orcs. Never mind we're worshipping daedra now, literally the exact opposite of our ancestors. Then their worshipping vivec and almalexia who are two insane ego maniacs. I dont think I need to mention almalexia but vivec is a narcissist that keeps a giant rock over his people and quotes himself all day, probably both murderers and traitors. Then they betray their highelf and woodelf cousins by joining the pact. They give numidium to tiber septim, who also sucks. Who uses it to cheat and win the cyrodil war that the dominion was winning! Get the summerset isles conquered. Never mind we're back worshipping Daedra again.

barney2525

Other

I don't

I don't like the way they look, (not skin color) can't do anything to make a decent facial expression. So I generally don't use one because I know I will not stick with a character that I do think ' looks good'. They do have useful passives. I do have one, which is a vampire, which imho stage one makes it look better than normal DE.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Well TES 3 is the beat ES game, so people who understand that, tend to understand Dunmer.

I will never forget my little Kajiit female who became so incensed by the racism, that she lost it. Joined the Morag Tong, and stole everything in Balmora and became a serious criminal. She was one of my best RP chars I have ever played. The anger was reinforced all the time by the comments and actions of Dunmer.

Vanya

A mixture of the above

Their intriguing lore,Setting,unique looks for an elf as welll. Indeed Dark,Intellectual powerhouses 2nd only to Altmer I would say,Great houses,Wizards, A mixture of multiple factors.

I love their speech-craft and diving entities. Morrowind is in my opinion closest to magical realm in Nirn of all places excluding Planes of oblivion. Its so different there compared to anywhere else,not to say its my favorite. Along with all else said there is some aura of mysticism with them. Its a pure joy to listen any Dark elf and whoever voiced them.

Morrowind and Dark elves are one those iconic races and place of Elder Scrolls universe. Dunmer can appear both cold,calculating,intelligent somewhat even cruel but, yet also strangely charming ,loyal and attractive. They are quite possibly the most versatile race along with Khajit.

Having great balance between magicka,stamina also fire resist which is probably most common form of elemental damage is extremely useful. They also have weapon plus spell damage, are candidate for multiple builds.