Why do you like dark elves?

coop500

Other

For those getting up in arms about my slavery comment, dark elves are the race people roleplay as randomly in the forums and in game chat to spew racist comments towards other races. Other parts of the lore nor other races and stuff don't have people do this, so it makes me curious and wary of fans who like dark elves.

Elo106

Their lore

coop500 wrote: »

For those getting up in arms about my slavery comment, dark elves are the race people roleplay as randomly in the forums and in game chat to spew racist comments towards other races. Other parts of the lore nor other races and stuff don't have people do this, so it makes me curious and wary of fans who like dark elves.

Hippety Hoppety Argonians are property!

Chilly-McFreeze

Their lore

coop500 wrote: »

For those getting up in arms about my slavery comment, dark elves are the race people roleplay as randomly in the forums and in game chat to spew racist comments towards other races. Other parts of the lore nor other races and stuff don't have people do this, so it makes me curious and wary of fans who like dark elves.

I guess it depends on how role-playy those comments are and how worked up you get about fictional races in a fantasy universe not being treated equally. Personally, I don't see the necessarity to bring real world context into any TES game or vice versa: to judge a persons character/ attitude by in game choices. It's a rpg after all.

But of course, if it's a simple insult to the player behind the char or a comment with real world context it's not okay. But that's a topic on it's own as people can also feel insulted by t-bagging etc.

RedMuse

Other

I don't.

Iluvrien

Their lore

coop500 wrote: »

For those getting up in arms about my slavery comment, dark elves are the race people roleplay as randomly in the forums and in game chat to spew racist comments towards other races. Other parts of the lore nor other races and stuff don't have people do this, so it makes me curious and wary of fans who like dark elves.

Wait, so this isn’t even about the Dunmer as a culture... but about wing nuts who use the Dunmer as a bad cover for their own irrationality?

My word that is an impressive strawman.

I’ve seen players do similar things with Altmer, by the way. That behaviour isn’t confined to the Dunmer.

RedMuse

Other

coop500 wrote: »

Is it wrong of me to kinda be.... wary? Of people who are into Dunmer lore? I mean the race is very into racism and slavery and stuff... Is that why you guys like them?

There are people who find the Empire and Sith in fascinating too, they're not necessarily bad people. To paraphrase James T. Kirk, we can admire or respect the achievements of people (individually or as a group) whose actions we also find abhorrent. And sometimes it's just plain fun to play a bad guy.

nukk3r

A mixture of the above

coop500 wrote: »

Is it wrong of me to kinda be.... wary? Of people who are into Dunmer lore? I mean the race is very into racism and slavery and stuff... Is that why you guys like them?

You're looking at it from your context, a 21st century presumably western human, but you're missing a fictional context of TES universe. What is unacceptable for you in real life is a norm in a fictional feudal society. But slavery isn't a defining feature of dunmer. They defied gods in more than one way, they chose to live (and strive) in a hostile environment, they're just awesome.

emilyhyoyeon

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

I like pretty much all the races in TES. Some I like more than others and dunmer are on the "more" half, because they didn't copy some other typical elf, but instead made them very unique and interesting. How many elves can you think of that wear bone and chitin, ride giant bugs, live in and among giant mushrooms, and don't get me started on the history, culture and politics. They are as interesting as they have a tendency to be awful people.

This is exactly how I feel, although dunmer are in my ''less'' half, second to last. Dunmer have gotten so much lore and development compared to pretty much everyone else that if the other races got as much development, based on what we know of them so far, dunmer would be at 9th place for me, so I consider them my 9th favorite.

My ranking them so low is what makes me not vote in the poll, but I would probably vote appearance since I like their aesthetics. Dunmer themselves physically look cool, and I also like the aesthetic designs of their cities like Balmora and Vivec, which I'm considering under appearance.

LordArconSeptim

The reason of making this thread is obvious, now make one for Redguards

Auztinito

Their appearence

Honestly, I just like their appearance. When it comes to their culture and society. If I was given the option in-game, I’d burn it all down. Nothing justifies slavery or their xenophobic beliefs.

Cirantille

Other

They are my second best option

First being Altmer

Because, well magic & elves

VaranisArano

phantasmalD wrote: »

It's not even a universal practice within Dunmer society. Out of the 5 Great Houses only like 2 actively engages in slavery, and even then it's only really House Dres, Telvanni are just suffering from (arguably warranted) superiority complex and think themselves above of menial tasks and problems.

Er, no. While parts of ESO's lore suggest that House Redoran, Indoril, Hlaalu, and Dres have freed their slaves at Almsivi's command, other parts contradict that In large part because the Pact ending all slavery is a retcon. The base game Pact only freed the Argonians. And by the 3rd Era, Morrowind and Vvardenfell are slave-holding territories again. The ban on slaveholding existed only as long as the Tribunal needed a military alliance with the Argonians. Once the Pact was done, slavery was back.

In ESO Stonefalls, Grandmaster Tanval Indoril sends Pact troops to quell the slave revolt at Sathram Plantation.

In Stormhaven, a Dunmer slaver makes reference to selling the player character at slave markets in Balmora, which is House Redoran territory.

In Shadowfen, House Dres slavers are still capturing Argonians.

By TES 3, House Hlaalu has more slaves than House Telvanni on Vvardenfell, working khajiit and argonians in the fields and in mines.

So, er, no. This isn't some "Only House Dres is really bad" type of slavery. By TES 3, slavery is once again the foundation of Morrowind's agriculture and economy. Slavery is almost universally accepted as one of Morrowind's ancient rights, guaranteed under the treaty with the Empire. At least three of the 5 Great Houses have substantial numbers of slaves (Hlaalu, Telvanni, and Dres). That's 3 of the 4 Houses we see in TES 3, since we never see Indoril territory. At best, you can say that House Dres is the worst of a pretty bad lot.

Now, sure, during ESO there's a solid claim to be made that the majority of Dunmer have given up the practice of slavery at the command of the Tribunal. If you want to roleplay that way, cool! But in the greater context of recent history before the Pact and future lore once the Pact ends, slavery is ubiquitous in Dunmer society.

Michae

Their lore

Funny how people can judge characters of players in a game featuring war and various murder plots, where you can be thief or assassin etc. Where all Alliances are shown to do morally dubious things (in form of them being shown as antagonists of other Alliances quest lines, you know, various plots to control the undead, or other people's minds etc.). How are you even here if you can't dissasociate your real life political views from a role playing game? I mean of course slavery's bad, but how do you draw the line on it in ESO and not on war, murder or thievery? And how can you judge a group of players liking some culture in game just on the basis of slavery? It's what makes the Dunmer fascinating in the first place. TESIII showed us a multi faceted culture where there were really no good guys, just various shades of gray. The Dunmer are no moustache twirling villains, they don't unsubtly go "Mwahaha! We're so evil!" like some other groups in the game ("Hail Sithis!" ), they have thei highs and lows. they feel real. And this is what makes them interesting to so many people.

dvonpm

A mixture of the above

Best eyebrows. I just rationalize that with all the options in your poll.

DT-ARR

A mixture of the above

Most of all the nostalgia from TES3. Loved that game.

Edit: Seriously? Xenophobia? How ridiculous. This is a fantasy video game depicting numerous made up cultures - each of which containing unsavory elements in their fictional past.

Classic Snowflake/SJW move trying to equate real life politics to a video game while suggestively smearing and labeling a large segment of the player base, who theyve never met, as having racist tendency's simply for their choice of character race. Absolutely absurd

It’s ironic that in reality these people are the most toxic ones here.

TwinLamps

Other

well...

UGotBenched91

Their appearence

Aww the notorious lack of reading carefully this forum is famous for. Ha this thread is asking why you like dark elves not why you don’t. No need to post other and say you don’t like them.

For me I think they can be made into unique looking characters.

menedhyn

Other

Confession. I used to loathe aspects of Dunmer culture and refused to play as one.

And yet, they have fascinated me for years. The more I read about them, the more I wanted to find a way to play as one. They became too interesting to ignore and so, quite recently, I finally created a character I felt happy with. She's flawed, but determined. Stubborn, but not heartless. I wish I had created her years ago, but that's my loss.

Dunmer are now probably my joint favourite race. There's still parts of their culture I abhor, but I choose not to play my character in that way.

Ashryn

Other

I don't like them because of their lore and how obnoxious they are!

WaywardArgonian

A mixture of the above

Super deep lore, best-looking Elves imo, and I love being able to switch between magicka and stamina builds without sacrificing too much on either front.

SidraWillowsky

Their lore

coop500 wrote: »

For those getting up in arms about my slavery comment, dark elves are the race people roleplay as randomly in the forums and in game chat to spew racist comments towards other races. Other parts of the lore nor other races and stuff don't have people do this, so it makes me curious and wary of fans who like dark elves.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I like the Tribunal part of the lore and honestly hadn't thought much about the slavery part aside from condemning it. When I play TES III as a Dunmer I align myself with Master Aryon ("progressive" Telvanni mage who doesn't own slaves and is one of the very few characters in the game who's nice to you from the start) and free all of the slaves that I come across.

But yeah, I'm wary of people who wholeheartedly embrace and prefer RPing as racist Dunmer slaveholders. As someone else mentioned, we've got enough hate in the real world...

Syldras

Their lore

coop500 wrote: »

Is it wrong of me to kinda be.... wary? Of people who are into Dunmer lore? I mean the race is very into racism and slavery and stuff... Is that why you guys like them?

Yes. Fear us.
...Honestly, what kind of question is that?

If you look at mankind's history in real life, most cultures knew slavery. There's almost no exception, as it's part of a certain form of society (or better: phase of societal development). You had slaves in ancient Rome, Greece, Mesopotamia, Egypt, in South America (Inca, Aztecs,...), in China and Japan, in Arabia, also the Celts and the Norse people had slavery. And these are only examples. So - are you afraid of everyone who is interested in history? Of everyone who somehow fancies ancient Egypt? Of people who enjoy Viking stories?

Of course, slavery is awful. Many things in history are, if we look at them from today's perspective, with todays values, our understanding of human rights, etc. But people in the past have not thought the way modern people do. Some people seem to forget that past times were different than today's beliefs about what freedom is, what rights a person should have, what a person even is. If you look at history (or fiction with a historical setting), you can't expect it to be true to your modern expectations of ethical behaviour.

Honestly, I have the impression that some people today absolutely can't grasp the thought that not everyone on earth, and especially not in the past, had the same values than they have... A strange thing, actually. As if they have no knowledge in history or even just other cultures at all?

Iluvrien wrote: »

The Dunmer are such a varied people, from angel to demon and everything in between

Isn't that the case with every nation?

orion_1981usub17_ESO

A mixture of the above

If you were a human transported to Tamriel, you probably wouldn't want to hang out with the dunmer but this is likely true of all non man species. Xenophobia is not exclusive to dark elves, they're just more honest and upfront about it... (you know you'd be checking your coin purse each time a khajit hugged you, dont lie) truly They're really watered down in eso but they are the most real people of tamriel.

However nothing they do (even testing magical tortures on people) is any different than what our species does to eachother in the past and yes even now. So don't conflate your perceived moral superiority against them... there are slaves, genocides, and medical torture taking place in this world right NOW. So its easy to point the finger at nonreal entities and say they are bad while promptly ignoring human suffering here(not saying you need to acknowledge it either)

All the races of tamriel are interesting and enjoyable. Dark elves simply had a darker flavor to them, until the thalmor eclipsed them in skyrim and the dunmer were seen suffering. They are living people with a culture and a place in their world, and though it might be nice to visit, you will always be an outlander... just like foriegn travel here.

phantasmalD

Their lore

VaranisArano wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

It's not even a universal practice within Dunmer society. Out of the 5 Great Houses only like 2 actively engages in slavery, and even then it's only really House Dres, Telvanni are just suffering from (arguably warranted) superiority complex and think themselves above of menial tasks and problems.

Er, no. While parts of ESO's lore suggest that House Redoran, Indoril, Hlaalu, and Dres have freed their slaves at Almsivi's command, other parts contradict that In large part because the Pact ending all slavery is a retcon. The base game Pact only freed the Argonians. And by the 3rd Era, Morrowind and Vvardenfell are slave-holding territories again. The ban on slaveholding existed only as long as the Tribunal needed a military alliance with the Argonians. Once the Pact was done, slavery was back.

In ESO Stonefalls, Grandmaster Tanval Indoril sends Pact troops to quell the slave revolt at Sathram Plantation.

In Stormhaven, a Dunmer slaver makes reference to selling the player character at slave markets in Balmora, which is House Redoran territory.

In Shadowfen, House Dres slavers are still capturing Argonians.

By TES 3, House Hlaalu has more slaves than House Telvanni on Vvardenfell, working khajiit and argonians in the fields and in mines.

So, er, no. This isn't some "Only House Dres is really bad" type of slavery. By TES 3, slavery is once again the foundation of Morrowind's agriculture and economy. Slavery is almost universally accepted as one of Morrowind's ancient rights, guaranteed under the treaty with the Empire. At least three of the 5 Great Houses have substantial numbers of slaves (Hlaalu, Telvanni, and Dres). That's 3 of the 4 Houses we see in TES 3, since we never see Indoril territory. At best, you can say that House Dres is the worst of a pretty bad lot.

Now, sure, during ESO there's a solid claim to be made that the majority of Dunmer have given up the practice of slavery at the command of the Tribunal. If you want to roleplay that way, cool! But in the greater context of recent history before the Pact and future lore once the Pact ends, slavery is ubiquitous in Dunmer society.

Have you heard of King Helseth, Empire appointed ruler of Morrowind, Head of House Hlaalu? He abolished slavery just a few years after the events of TES3, when he felt he solified his rule well enough to make such a move. That's not ESO lore, that's pre-Oblivion events.

House Indoril is deeply intertwined with the Temple and the entirety of Vvardenfell is pretty much considered Temple territory, so we kinda do see Indoril territory, since Temple ~ Indoril. Mournhold also appears in the Tribunal expansion, which is an actual Indoril city. As far as I'm aware there's no slaves in Temple associated places, but that might only be because they are too busy serving and protecting the Tribunal and not because they are against it, considering they said to deliberately defy imperial laws and practices.

As far as I can see there's not a single Redoran associated territory with slaves, so they are def not shown to be slave keepers in TES3, tho they are also supposed to be traditionalists, so shrug.

House Hlaalu indeed have a few slave owners, but that's because the house is deeply corrupted and either those slave owner bribed others to turn a blind eye or they are just too important to maintain the inner balance between councellors so they are left alone. But officially the house is against slavery (probably partially to maintain good relationship with the Empire).
Almost as to counteract this slavery, House Hlaalu almost officially backs the Twin Lamps movement, the head of which is a Hlaalu councillor.

So yeah, my earlier assesment was definitely inacurrate but I think saying slavery is ubiquitous part of dunmer society is false, especially considering it gets outlawed a few years after the events of TES3 (see King Hlaalu Helseth) AND Twin Lamps shows not all dunmer look favourably upon slavery.

Also, there are dunmer outside the Great Houses. Like the Ashlanders. I don't think they own slaves or consider it part of their culture.

Syldras wrote: »

But people in the past have not thought the way modern people do.

I dunno about that, ancient roman [snip] shows us that people haven't changed that much. :B
And it's kind of dangerous to think we did. People still hold those views and racism is still rampart in our society. There's just perhaps a bigger pressure nowadays to publicly appear good and righteous.

[Edited to remove Profnaity]

Dojohoda

Their racial abilities

I like numbers and stuff.

Syldras

Their lore

phantasmalD wrote: »

Also, there are dunmer outside the Great Houses. Like the Ashlanders. I don't think they own slaves or consider it part of their culture.

It's more that slaves aren't of that much use in their way of living as small nomadic tribes. They did raid other tribes and kidnap people though.

phantasmalD wrote: »

I dunno about that, ancient roman [snip] shows us that people haven't changed that much. :B And it's kind of dangerous to think we did. People still hold those views and racism is still rampart in our society. There's just perhaps a bigger pressure nowadays to publicly appear good and righteous.

[snip] As unbelievable as it is for us today, it was seen as "normal" and necessary by those cultures back then and wasn't questioned. So, yes, some views do change.

But I agree that the hatred against everyone who is different (be it nationality, skin color, gender, religion or what ever - being "different" is the point) is still very present today.

[Edited to remove Inappropriate Content]

VaranisArano

I like the Dunmer. I like the Altmer.

I am, however, extremely wary of players who deny, minimize, or justify the racism, xenophobia, slavery, and supremacist teaching of those races as part of their roleplaying...especially when they frequently seem to glorify or revel in those aspects, coupled with the manifest unwillingness to say those things are morally wrong in the real world or the unwillingness to consider the situation from the point of view of Dunmer/Altmer victims.

Its okay to like problematic things. That doesn't mean there aren't problems that shouldn't be glorified.

Maybe its my D&D roleplaying background speaking here, but I can accept a great deal of in-character nastiness, if you are willing to act, converse, and debate like a decent person out-of-character. Acknowledging out-of-character that slavery, racism, xenophobia, and supremacist actions are bad seems like a really low bar to clear.

Dunmer/Altmer fans who won't get "out-of-character" long enough to acknowledge the harm those races do to other in-universe or the harm those beliefs/actions have done to others in the real world skeeve me out. I suppose the ones who aren't outright trolls and edgelords will take that as a compliment to their roleplaying, but truth be told, I pity them. It takes a certain amount if commitment to roleplay a jerk in-character to such an extent that other roleplayers are left feeling like someone is an out-of-character jerk, but they manage it.

Syldras

Their lore

@phantasmalD Checked the Ashlander thing. This is what you get as a reply when you asked them about Khajiit and Argonians in TES3:

"The Khajiit are savage half-men of the southern deserts and jungles. They are ignorant and superstitious, but they are clever and dangerous. Our fathers used to keep them as slaves, but they are sneaky and untrustworthy. The settled people still keep them as slaves to feed them and keep their great houses clean."

"Argonians are the savage half-men of the southern marshes. Our peoples used to keep them as slaves, but they are useless. The settled people still keep them as slaves to grub in the soil. They are dirty and wicked, and we should drive them all back into the swamps they came from."

Their opinion on other races aren't much better, btw.

Syldras

Their lore

Syldras wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Also, there are dunmer outside the Great Houses. Like the Ashlanders. I don't think they own slaves or consider it part of their culture.

It's more that slaves aren't of that much use in their way of living as small nomadic tribes. They did raid other tribes and kidnap people though.

phantasmalD wrote: »

I dunno about that, ancient roman [snip] shows us that people haven't changed that much. :B And it's kind of dangerous to think we did. People still hold those views and racism is still rampart in our society. There's just perhaps a bigger pressure nowadays to publicly appear good and righteous.

[snip] As unbelievable as it is for us today, it was seen as "normal" and necessary by those cultures back then and wasn't questioned. So, yes, some views do change.

But I agree that the hatred against everyone who is different (be it nationality, skin color, gender, religion or what ever - being "different" is the point) is still very present today.

[Edited to remove Inappropriate Content]

So that my posting makes sense again - removed part was about some documented gruesome historical cultural practices that were common and seen as normal in their time, but luckily would not be deemed acceptable by anyone anymore today. So, yes, some views do change, luckily.

tuxon

Their lore

Very nice! How much?