No nord changes ?

amir412

[Snip], I for example re-rolled most of my chars to Nord.
Pretty sure a lot of pvpers did the same, and ZOS expects us to race change them. Ya, nah not gonna happen this time.

[Edited for bashing]

UntouchableHunter

sgalia wrote: »

serious nerf change to Nord race for tanking, no longer #1 choice....
New Top 5 List based on the Tank Club
#1 - Imperial
#2 - Redguard
#3 - Argonian
#4 - Orc
#5 - Nord
https://youtu.be/71gzo0CEz4E

Yep, ZOS is making us buy to win.

mikey_reach

Redguard is very negligible for tanking i would switch it with nord. Optimizing damage for group is what matter so top 2 is imperial and nord and not even by much, short fights nord is better long fights imperial is better.

Sangwyne

Just going off of the relative value for each racial bonus, Nord actually tends towards the bottom of the pack with regards to efficiency. 2600 resists equates to 1.748 of a set bonus (SB), 1000 health is 0.829 SB (1000/1206), the 1500 stamina 1.369 SB, the ult generation is not comparable to Werewolf Hide as a 5 pc set bonus (5 per 10 vs 6 per 5 is only 41.6%, given that 5pc set bonuses tend to be about 2.33 times the value of a set bonus, based off julianos, crafty alfiq, fortified brass, etc, so that's 0.966 or so), and the frost resist is fairly useless. Meaning Nord's racials possess a comparable set value of 4.912, without frost resist being accounted for (as it's fairly specific and rare). Orc, on the other hand, has 12% increased sprint speed and cost reduction, while Fjord's gives 15% on its 5pc, so (12/15)x2.33=1.864 SB, the 1k HP is 0.829 SB, the 1k Stam (on PTS) is 0.912, and the 258 Weapon/Spell Damage is 2 SB (EACH), for a total of 5.605 if only counting for stamina or magicka builds, on top of the 2125 health every 4s being much more useful than some frost resistance. If we were to quantify the heal, it would be roughly equivalent to 531 health/s, or 1061 health recovery in combat- and that's a whollllle lotta set bonus value. I could also make the argument that Weapon and Spell damage should be counted as discrete bonuses, but I won't, because I think the argument has been made.
TLDR: Nord's racials have lower value when compared to set bonuses than most other races. They have amongst the least damage of all races, less than Altmer do with physical weapons despite being a warrior race, and their sustain is nonexistent.

ExistingRug61

Sangwyne wrote: »

Just going off of the relative value for each racial bonus, Nord actually tends towards the bottom of the pack with regards to efficiency. 2600 resists equates to 1.748 of a set bonus (SB), 1000 health is 0.829 SB (1000/1206), the 1500 stamina 1.369 SB, the ult generation is not comparable to Werewolf Hide as a 5 pc set bonus (5 per 10 vs 6 per 5 is only 41.6%, given that 5pc set bonuses tend to be about 2.33 times the value of a set bonus, based off julianos, crafty alfiq, fortified brass, etc, so that's 0.966 or so), and the frost resist is fairly useless. Meaning Nord's racials possess a comparable set value of 4.912, without frost resist being accounted for (as it's fairly specific and rare). Orc, on the other hand, has 12% increased sprint speed and cost reduction, while Fjord's gives 15% on its 5pc, so (12/15)x2.33=1.864 SB, the 1k HP is 0.829 SB, the 1k Stam (on PTS) is 0.912, and the 258 Weapon/Spell Damage is 2 SB (EACH), for a total of 5.605 if only counting for stamina or magicka builds, on top of the 2125 health every 4s being much more useful than some frost resistance. If we were to quantify the heal, it would be roughly equivalent to 531 health/s, or 1061 health recovery in combat- and that's a whollllle lotta set bonus value. I could also make the argument that Weapon and Spell damage should be counted as discrete bonuses, but I won't, because I think the argument has been made.
TLDR: Nord's racials have lower value when compared to set bonuses than most other races. They have amongst the least damage of all races, less than Altmer do with physical weapons despite being a warrior race, and their sustain is nonexistent.

Actually, Nord is quite similar value wise to most other races (in the context of your above comparison to orc, yes its lower than orc depending on how you value orc's heal but that's orc being an outlier rather than the average)

This set worth evaluation got done for all races here
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/560455/for-information-all-races-set-bonus-equivalent-worth-in-current-patch/p1
(Although note that the values used in that were still based on the v6.3.0 values for the regen buffs of 40% and 20% before the later change to 30% and 15% - this change would have a small effect on the values for Redguard, Altmer, Argonian and Orc).

Once the resistance is normalised assuming equal amounts of all incoming damage types, Nord was 5.3, with most other races being in the 5-5.8 range.
The only exception was orc depending on how you value the heal, which was something of a subjective matter as discussed in that thread due to wildly different references for heals and health regen existing across different sets in the game.

Sangwyne

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Actually, Nord is quite similar value wise to most other races (in the context of your above comparison to orc, yes its lower than orc depending on how you value orc's heal but that's orc being an outlier rather than the average)

This set worth evaluation got done for all races here
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/560455/for-information-all-races-set-bonus-equivalent-worth-in-current-patch/p1
(Although note that the values used in that were still based on the v6.3.0 values for the regen buffs of 40% and 20% before the later change to 30% and 15% - this change would have a small effect on the values for Redguard, Altmer, Argonian and Orc).

Once the resistance is normalised assuming equal amounts of all incoming damage types, Nord was 5.3, with most other races being in the 5-5.8 range.
The only exception was orc depending on how you value the heal, which was something of a subjective matter as discussed in that thread due to wildly different references for heals and health regen existing across different sets in the game.

He grossly undervalues the Orc sprint passive, giving it only 0.38 of a set bonus in worth

Also I made an estimate that sprint speed and cost reduction is worth about 1/3 of general speed.

when it's about 80% of what Fjord's gives as a 5pc set bonus, which are generally worth 2.33 times a regular set bonus. He also recognizes the heal is valued quite highly in terms of efficiency, and even using Beekeeper's to reign in the value, ends up with 1.61, which if we tacked on to the value of 5.605 we obtained earlier would be 7.205 compared to Nord's 5.3. Also, the assumption is made that Nord's frost resist is as useful as every other type, when that's simply not the case; physical and magic damage are by far the most common, followed by flame and poison, and then probably disease, bleed, shock and frost somewhere around there. Not to mention, Nords are often paired with the Dragonknight class, and as such the 3300 spell resist from Dragonknight coupled with Nord's innate resistance and now the 4620 Frost resistance puts practically every tank over the cap for frost resistance, even if the rest of their resistances, especially physical, are uncapped. I would have preferred the immunity to being Chilled, to be honest, but if Nord is receiving a nerf to its durability, then it should at least get something back, even if it's not a bonus super relevant to tanking; honestly, 1k magicka on its Rugged passive (the resists) would go a long way towards equalizing the race, it wouldn't be unbalanced or too strong, and there's precedent for Nord mages like Shalidor. Makes more sense to me at least than burly Orcs receiving 258 spell damage or Altmers getting 258 weapon damage when they look more like the "Get stickbugged!" prank gif than actual warriors.

ExistingRug61

Sangwyne wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Actually, Nord is quite similar value wise to most other races (in the context of your above comparison to orc, yes its lower than orc depending on how you value orc's heal but that's orc being an outlier rather than the average)

This set worth evaluation got done for all races here
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/560455/for-information-all-races-set-bonus-equivalent-worth-in-current-patch/p1
(Although note that the values used in that were still based on the v6.3.0 values for the regen buffs of 40% and 20% before the later change to 30% and 15% - this change would have a small effect on the values for Redguard, Altmer, Argonian and Orc).

Once the resistance is normalised assuming equal amounts of all incoming damage types, Nord was 5.3, with most other races being in the 5-5.8 range.
The only exception was orc depending on how you value the heal, which was something of a subjective matter as discussed in that thread due to wildly different references for heals and health regen existing across different sets in the game.

He grossly undervalues the Orc sprint passive, giving it only 0.38 of a set bonus in worth

Also I made an estimate that sprint speed and cost reduction is worth about 1/3 of general speed.

when it's about 80% of what Fjord's gives as a 5pc set bonus, which are generally worth 2.33 times a regular set bonus. He also recognizes the heal is valued quite highly in terms of efficiency, and even using Beekeeper's to reign in the value, ends up with 1.61, which if we tacked on to the value of 5.605 we obtained earlier would be 7.205 compared to Nord's 5.3. Also, the assumption is made that Nord's frost resist is as useful as every other type, when that's simply not the case; physical and magic damage are by far the most common, followed by flame and poison, and then probably disease, bleed, shock and frost somewhere around there. Not to mention, Nords are often paired with the Dragonknight class, and as such the 3300 spell resist from Dragonknight coupled with Nord's innate resistance and now the 4620 Frost resistance puts practically every tank over the cap for frost resistance, even if the rest of their resistances, especially physical, are uncapped. I would have preferred the immunity to being Chilled, to be honest, but if Nord is receiving a nerf to its durability, then it should at least get something back, even if it's not a bonus super relevant to tanking; honestly, 1k magicka on its Rugged passive (the resists) would go a long way towards equalizing the race, it wouldn't be unbalanced or too strong, and there's precedent for Nord mages like Shalidor. Makes more sense to me at least than burly Orcs receiving 258 spell damage or Altmers getting 258 weapon damage when they look more like the "Get stickbugged!" prank gif than actual warriors.

Yes, like I said, the value for orc is the outlier, and its value is highly variable depending on subjectivity on the heal in particular as well as the sprint speed. Hence the varying values presented for orc which are then left up to the reader to decide on how they value them

But if we ignore orc given those subjective problems which make it a poor basis for comparison, and instead focus on all the other races which are a lot less subjective, then Nord is definitely in the same ballpark as these. This was the point I was making in my previous post.

Additionally, in terms of resistances and their relative value: Yes in practice different resistances are more or less useful. But that is subjective, similar to how we subjectively consider a set bonus of weapon/spell damage to be more useful than a set bonus of regen. But when doing set bonus valuation of passives this subjective difference is not considered as we are assessing the strength of the passive based on the opportunity cost of getting that stat in another way, ie: the cost to the power budget. In these terms the same value of damage is equal to the same value of regen, and likewise each individual resistance of equal value is valued the same.

So yes the resistances may be worth differing values to you or any other player: but this is a subjective or relative analysis of the passives effectiveness and not one that should be taken into account when doing a pure analysis of the set bonus equivalence.

I don't disagree that potentially nord's may have passives that are weaker in specific use cases like you have mentioned, based on the specific case and subjective effects on the individual passives in those use cases. That is a valid argument to make.
My point here is that using a pure set bonus equivalence analysis on its own doesn't support that argument, and this is because the set bonus equivalence analysis should ignore specific use cases.

AyaDark

#1 - Imperial
#2 - Redguard
#3 - Argonian
#4 - Orc
#5 - Nord

I think even may be:
1)Redguard
2)Imperial
3)Argo
4)Orc
5)Dark Elfs->High elves^Nords

Because 4 k stats and good burn protecrion and better self healing from more spd wpd and can be DD.

Elfs now can regen resources in block.

And nord can not be healer or DD.

It is nerf like to Imperial race before.

The race passives is not hard to balance at all. I can clearly see it is offbalanced now.

And was before with imperial.

May be really it is made just to make people change race more.

If no change race tokens -> i think it will just become a trend to nerf 1-2 race each update.

People who have game exp can clearly see how bad is some race in some aspects. So it is not about forum calculation.

Whyle 1 will stand with full resources - other will just think how to survive.

So it is not even near any balance.

JohnOfMarkarth

Theres no point to argue with people i feel.

Cus now people use silly billy arguments...
You can have "set stat bonuses" equal to all races... and still be bad. How is "set stat bonus equation"... an argument of true racial value...

And do i have to remind people that ultigen is useful for nord ... not as a DD or a healer... but a tank? Do I have to remind people that healers dont... TRY TO BE HIT?
Or are people using argument of "tank-healing"? The thing that shouldnt exist? As a good?

Nords arent... "EXCEPTIONAL TANKS!" by any measure, mainly in PvE... But additionally they are also ... worst DDs. And absolutely not noteworthy healers.



These people... these changes... and their endorsement from people who just want their pvp pains be nerfed away at cost of everything else gameplay wise... will keep me away from this game.

Perhaps you are saving me time...

But its still harming the game itself.

Vetixio

The races are still imbalanced tbh. Altmer and Orcs both gaining spell and weapon damage which is stupid and not lorefriendly at all lol. They are both the top dps for mag/stam and will continue to be. Nords need a weapon damage bonus as do Redguards. Bosmer need their stealth back. Orcs should be the slowest and one of the sturdiest races, rather than have the movement speed and gain a small spell resistance buff like they have had in previous games and the speed buff they have should go to Bosmer or Khajiit. Khajiits should be stamina focused again and Imperials should inherit the magicka bonuses from Khajiit. As Khajiit and Orcs are the only two races who have never had any magic skill bonuses in any TES game and same with Altmer never having martial skill bonuses. Oh ZOS.