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Nord nerf 2600 from 3900??? This is not a nerf it is a destruction
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zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
The way resistance calculations work in this game is that there are no diminishing returns on investing into resistance, unless you are at the resistance cap of 33,150 already. Resistances are also calculated additively within the same multiplicative coefficient for total damage mitigation calculations. This means that, assuming you aren't hitting the resistance cap already, the loss of resistance affects all armor types equally. If you take 200 more damage per attack in light armor after the change in resistances, you will also be taking 200 more damage per attack in heavy armor.
Also, for anybody who doesn't know, 661 resistance is equal to 1% of damage mitigation. So 1348/661 = ~2.04 mitigation. Nords are losing 2.04% damage mitigation.
To put that into perspective, if an attack deals 10k damage to you before the change, it will now deal 10,208 damage to you.
This is not how scaling works though. 2% resists from 98% to 100% is 2% more dmg taken, 2% resists from 50% to 52% is 4%~ dmg taken.3 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
The way resistance calculations work in this game is that there are no diminishing returns on investing into resistance, unless you are at the resistance cap of 33,150 already. Resistances are also calculated additively within the same multiplicative coefficient for total damage mitigation calculations. This means that, assuming you aren't hitting the resistance cap already, the loss of resistance affects all armor types equally. If you take 200 more damage per attack in light armor after the change in resistances, you will also be taking 200 more damage per attack in heavy armor.
Also, for anybody who doesn't know, 661 resistance is equal to 1% of damage mitigation. So 1348/661 = ~2.04 mitigation. Nords are losing 2.04% damage mitigation.
To put that into perspective, if an attack deals 10k damage to you before the change, it will now deal 10,208 damage to you.
This is not how scaling works though. 2% resists from 98% to 100% is 2% more dmg taken, 2% resists from 50% to 52% is 4%~ dmg taken.
Thank you0 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭Another point.
People are saying 3900 resistance is too much.
But when you get resistance you get only resistance.
A race like Dark Elf that get 2k mag and a High Elf for exemplo, they get
1- Full stats
2- Better sutain
3- Better heals
4- Better dmg
And everything scales.
When you compare get 2600 resistance against other races getting 2k mag or 2k Stam you will go away from Nord (PVP perspective)
4 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
The way resistance calculations work in this game is that there are no diminishing returns on investing into resistance, unless you are at the resistance cap of 33,150 already. Resistances are also calculated additively within the same multiplicative coefficient for total damage mitigation calculations. This means that, assuming you aren't hitting the resistance cap already, the loss of resistance affects all armor types equally. If you take 200 more damage per attack in light armor after the change in resistances, you will also be taking 200 more damage per attack in heavy armor.
Also, for anybody who doesn't know, 661 resistance is equal to 1% of damage mitigation. So 1348/661 = ~2.04 mitigation. Nords are losing 2.04% damage mitigation.
To put that into perspective, if an attack deals 10k damage to you before the change, it will now deal 10,208 damage to you.
This is not how scaling works though. 2% resists from 98% to 100% is 2% more dmg taken, 2% resists from 50% to 52% is 4%~ dmg taken.
Thank you
i think the nerf is justified though as well. since the buff they gave nords 1.5 years ago i created 5 tanks, all of them are nords, because nords were that much of a strong tanking race. nords even after the nerf are in a good place, some max resources, a bit resists (2.6k is still quit a bit) and the ult gen, i do think they should buff the nords in max stam a bit though (instead of health), to make them more appealing to dmg. the only race that i do think they are wronging next patch is orcs though. they were deemed "too strong" because the sustain races are just not needed(stam sustain is in a really good place). so instead of giving more dmg to the sustain races they gut down the most popular dmg race, while leaving dunmers to be the "next bis stam build" as if it wont be stacked like orcs were. if they want to gutt anything from orc it should be the health bonus. (another option to make nords more appealing to dmg is to make their 5 ult dependent on dmg done not taken, would be a great change imo)Edited by zvavi on January 30, 2021 5:01AM1 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
The way resistance calculations work in this game is that there are no diminishing returns on investing into resistance, unless you are at the resistance cap of 33,150 already. Resistances are also calculated additively within the same multiplicative coefficient for total damage mitigation calculations. This means that, assuming you aren't hitting the resistance cap already, the loss of resistance affects all armor types equally. If you take 200 more damage per attack in light armor after the change in resistances, you will also be taking 200 more damage per attack in heavy armor.
Also, for anybody who doesn't know, 661 resistance is equal to 1% of damage mitigation. So 1348/661 = ~2.04 mitigation. Nords are losing 2.04% damage mitigation.
To put that into perspective, if an attack deals 10k damage to you before the change, it will now deal 10,208 damage to you.
This is not how scaling works though. 2% resists from 98% to 100% is 2% more dmg taken, 2% resists from 50% to 52% is 4%~ dmg taken.
Thank you
i think the nerf is justified though as well. since the buff they gave nords 1.5 years ago i created 5 tanks, all of them are nords, because nords were that much of a strong tanking race. nords even after the nerf are in a good place, some max resources, a bit resists (2.6k is still quit a bit) and the ult gen, i do think they should buff the nords in max stam a bit though (instead of health), to make them more appealing to dmg. the only race that i do think they are wronging next patch is orcs though. they were deemed "too strong" because the sustain races are just not needed(stam sustain is in a really good place). so instead of giving more dmg to the sustain races they gut down the most popular dmg race, while leaving dunmers to be the "next bis stam build" as if it wont be stacked like orcs were. if they want to gutt anything from orc it should be the health bonus. (another option to make nords more appealing to dmg is to make their 5 ult dependent on dmg done not taken, would be a great change imo)
Let see what will happen but everybody that I know how plays Nord will change for another race...0 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
Let see what will happen but everybody that I know how plays Nord will change for another race...
to what? imperial? orc? dunmer? redguard? breton?
at least now u get variety to chose from. i dont usually change my race, so unless i see another race that will highly benefit my tanking style i wont change the nord (unless they take the ult generation, which was the thing to tip my scales when seeing the resist buffs).
you still get 1k hp, 1.5k stam, 2600 resists, 5 ult every 10 seconds
dunmer is 1.9k stam+mag, 4k fire resists, 258 weapon/spell dmg (which is nice to have to make sure your new alkosh procs without the group buffs or investing in it a bit)
breton 100 mag recovery 7% mag costs, 2k max mag
comparing them, i wouldnt say i would run to create a nord right away like i did when it was almost 4k resists, my main reason not to create a nord would be just because i already have 5 (while before every tank was getting nice chank of resources, ult gen, and 4k resists).
thats my opinion on the matter though
Edited by zvavi on January 30, 2021 5:17AM2 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
The way resistance calculations work in this game is that there are no diminishing returns on investing into resistance, unless you are at the resistance cap of 33,150 already. Resistances are also calculated additively within the same multiplicative coefficient for total damage mitigation calculations. This means that, assuming you aren't hitting the resistance cap already, the loss of resistance affects all armor types equally. If you take 200 more damage per attack in light armor after the change in resistances, you will also be taking 200 more damage per attack in heavy armor.
Also, for anybody who doesn't know, 661 resistance is equal to 1% of damage mitigation. So 1348/661 = ~2.04 mitigation. Nords are losing 2.04% damage mitigation.
To put that into perspective, if an attack deals 10k damage to you before the change, it will now deal 10,208 damage to you.
This is not how scaling works though. 2% resists from 98% to 100% is 2% more dmg taken, 2% resists from 50% to 52% is 4%~ dmg taken.
Okay, sure relativity plays some part in it. So let's do the math.
With full light armor plus major resolve (which I feel is a safe assumption that everyone here is using) and the old nord resistance bonus, you will be taking 73.68% of tool tip damage from resistances alone, without other modifiers.
In the same situation but with the new nord resistance passive, this will increase to taking 75.72% of tool tip damage.
To find the relative increase in damage taken, we have to complete 75.72/73.68, which equals to 1.028.
You will be taking 2.8% more damage compared to what you are already taking on live.
Taking less than 3% more relative damage will not break a build.2 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
The way resistance calculations work in this game is that there are no diminishing returns on investing into resistance, unless you are at the resistance cap of 33,150 already. Resistances are also calculated additively within the same multiplicative coefficient for total damage mitigation calculations. This means that, assuming you aren't hitting the resistance cap already, the loss of resistance affects all armor types equally. If you take 200 more damage per attack in light armor after the change in resistances, you will also be taking 200 more damage per attack in heavy armor.
Are you considering the other players penetration?
for a Light armor the same penetration can hit really hard now.
I did the test with same build with no CP on the PTS and on the regular server. The same player can't kill me on the regular server, but on the PTS I was melting.
I understand that we need to rework everything after all this changes, but I really think this nerf is absolutely wrong and this decision was made to make players buy tokens
Penetration is subtractive from resistances, so relativity between armor rates stays the same.1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
The way resistance calculations work in this game is that there are no diminishing returns on investing into resistance, unless you are at the resistance cap of 33,150 already. Resistances are also calculated additively within the same multiplicative coefficient for total damage mitigation calculations. This means that, assuming you aren't hitting the resistance cap already, the loss of resistance affects all armor types equally. If you take 200 more damage per attack in light armor after the change in resistances, you will also be taking 200 more damage per attack in heavy armor.
Also, for anybody who doesn't know, 661 resistance is equal to 1% of damage mitigation. So 1348/661 = ~2.04 mitigation. Nords are losing 2.04% damage mitigation.
To put that into perspective, if an attack deals 10k damage to you before the change, it will now deal 10,208 damage to you.
This is not how scaling works though. 2% resists from 98% to 100% is 2% more dmg taken, 2% resists from 50% to 52% is 4%~ dmg taken.
Okay, sure relativity plays some part in it. So let's do the math.
With full light armor plus major resolve (which I feel is a safe assumption that everyone here is using) and the old nord resistance bonus, you will be taking 73.68% of tool tip damage from resistances alone, without other modifiers.
In the same situation but with the new nord resistance passive, this will increase to taking 75.72% of tool tip damage.
To find the relative increase in damage taken, we have to complete 75.72/73.68, which equals to 1.028.
You will be taking 2.8% more damage compared to what you are already taking on live.
Taking less than 3% more relative damage will not break a build.
I am doing it genuinely from PvE tank perspective so your assumption is already wrong. But ye in PvP it will be closer to the 2%, just like the one after you mentioned, penetration also plays into it. Edited by zvavi on January 30, 2021 6:15AM0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »I can't understand.
Some people saying Nord is overturned, top tier.
Other people saying 2% mitigation is nothing.
If 2%mitigation is nothing Nord can't be overturned.
You realize you still have 2.6k armor left, right? And the ult gen is still amazing.
The immunity to chilled is going to sting more than some small amount of armor.
On live nord is overtuned, Beacuse on top of having already good passives they also get 4k resistances, which is hard to make up elsewhere on other races without sacrificing too much in other places.
There aren't any good damage sets out there with a line or 2 of armor and protective jewelery makes you lose out on too much stats as well.
This is from a pvp standpoint.1 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
The way resistance calculations work in this game is that there are no diminishing returns on investing into resistance, unless you are at the resistance cap of 33,150 already. Resistances are also calculated additively within the same multiplicative coefficient for total damage mitigation calculations. This means that, assuming you aren't hitting the resistance cap already, the loss of resistance affects all armor types equally. If you take 200 more damage per attack in light armor after the change in resistances, you will also be taking 200 more damage per attack in heavy armor.
Also, for anybody who doesn't know, 661 resistance is equal to 1% of damage mitigation. So 1348/661 = ~2.04 mitigation. Nords are losing 2.04% damage mitigation.
To put that into perspective, if an attack deals 10k damage to you before the change, it will now deal 10,208 damage to you.
This is not how scaling works though. 2% resists from 98% to 100% is 2% more dmg taken, 2% resists from 50% to 52% is 4%~ dmg taken.
Okay, sure relativity plays some part in it. So let's do the math.
With full light armor plus major resolve (which I feel is a safe assumption that everyone here is using) and the old nord resistance bonus, you will be taking 73.68% of tool tip damage from resistances alone, without other modifiers.
In the same situation but with the new nord resistance passive, this will increase to taking 75.72% of tool tip damage.
To find the relative increase in damage taken, we have to complete 75.72/73.68, which equals to 1.028.
You will be taking 2.8% more damage compared to what you are already taking on live.
Taking less than 3% more relative damage will not break a build.
I am doing it genuinely from PvE tank perspective so your assumption is already wrong. But ye in PvP it will be closer to the 2%, just like the one after you mentioned, penetration also plays into it.
I did light armor because that is the worst case scenario, when the reduction in resistances will relatively produce the biggest increase to damage taken.
The higher the resistances, the lesser the relative increase to damage taken, so from the PvE tank perspective its even lower than the 2.8% increase to damage taken I outlined above.1 -
IronWooshu✭✭✭✭✭
✭As a Nord you could comfortably wear Light and Medium armor and have enough resistances as if you were wearing 5 pieces of heavy.
They offered too much.
1 -
Xiomaro✭✭✭From a PVE perspective, I highly doubt that 2% difference is enough to care about. The ult gen on Nord for tanks is still very valuable. Worst case scenario, the change just switches builds around a tiny bit. Change a glyph or trait and you're back where you want to be. I imagine Nord will still be a top dog for some tank builds.
In PVP, almost every stat is valuable to almost every build. If you're a magicka player who likes to dodge a lot, you could even justify playing a Wood Elf and it wouldn't be a completely garbage choice - it would be a playstyle choice. For that reason, it's really important that race stats are balanced against each other. If you play, say, Orc vs Wood Elf on a Stamsorc - you can do similar damage on a Wood Elf with the Warrior Mundus vs the Orc with Serpent. Shift a few things around in your build and you end up with a similar build with small playstyle differences (for example Orc vs Wood Elf. Do you want more health or do you want to dodge roll with a bow for sanic speed?). Nord on live gives more resistances than you can make up for on other races with simple mundus/glyph/trait switching. The bonus is just straight up better than any of the other options.
This nerf was a long time coming. And I say this as someone who race swapped my Stamsorc to Nord because it's just straight up better. I'll probably stick to Nord as well because the ult gen is still really nice for spamming Negate as often as possible.PC EU No CP PVPXiomaro: Nord Stamsorc
Xio'maro: Breton Magsorc
Falura Avelni: Dunmer Vampblade
Ulric Longboi: Nord Stamden
Sha'boom-boom: Orc Werewolf Tank
Morga The Roarer Nord Stamcro4 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭From a PVE perspective, I highly doubt that 2% difference is enough to care about. The ult gen on Nord for tanks is still very valuable. Worst case scenario, the change just switches builds around a tiny bit. Change a glyph or trait and you're back where you want to be. I imagine Nord will still be a top dog for some tank builds.
In PVP, almost every stat is valuable to almost every build. If you're a magicka player who likes to dodge a lot, you could even justify playing a Wood Elf and it wouldn't be a completely garbage choice - it would be a playstyle choice. For that reason, it's really important that race stats are balanced against each other. If you play, say, Orc vs Wood Elf on a Stamsorc - you can do similar damage on a Wood Elf with the Warrior Mundus vs the Orc with Serpent. Shift a few things around in your build and you end up with a similar build with small playstyle differences (for example Orc vs Wood Elf. Do you want more health or do you want to dodge roll with a bow for sanic speed?). Nord on live gives more resistances than you can make up for on other races with simple mundus/glyph/trait switching. The bonus is just straight up better than any of the other options.
This nerf was a long time coming. And I say this as someone who race swapped my Stamsorc to Nord because it's just straight up better. I'll probably stick to Nord as well because the ult gen is still really nice for spamming Negate as often as possible.
I have a magdk Nord with Steed Mundus stone.
2600 resistance from Nord
10% movement speed + 238 health recovery (119 per second)
Let's switch to Orc with the lady
2744 resistance
12% reduce sprint cost + 10 speed + 500 healthy regen per second.
And 258 spells damage.
Why should I pick Nord now?
Who use ice damage in pvp? Nobody, mag Warden? Mag Warden is so weak that we don't need 4k resistance.
In a pvp situation where you don't stand in front your opponent like a punching bag the Orc is more tank and make more dmg for sure.
Rip Nord.Edited by UntouchableHunter on January 30, 2021 11:28AM1 -
Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I've also tested in light armour and it really isn't that huge. It's greater risk versus physical (Martial) damage. But that's part of the light armour penalty and not the not Nord resistances. Others have tested with Z'Maja in light armour (where it's mostly magic damage) and it's doable. The type of armour you wear != the racial passives.UntouchableHunter wrote: »I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics2 -
Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
✭
All of my tanks with the exception of one are staying Nord until ZOS increases the Imperial passive to something around 12%, at which point there's more reason because of more ultimate. As it is, it still takes longer for an Imperial to use ultimate than it does for Nord to gain ultimate. We're only talking seconds, but if it's better it's better. And Nord is still better. If you switch to anything else (aside from Breton, but you still lose physical resistances), you lose the resistances entirely. You're screaming about losing 1360, but what happens when you lose 3960? That doesn't matter, apparently?UntouchableHunter wrote: »Let see what will happen but everybody that I know how plays Nord will change for another race...
So far as PvP goes, you can still use the Lady over Steed. You are slower, obviously; but you can spec into movement speed in the green CP. Did you spec into green? There's very little else to care about in the green when it comes to PvE or PvP. You will be faster than on Live. No race change tokens necessary. The impact is negligible by this change when you account for the other changes also being implemented.
This is not a make or break change. If you feel so strongly that you absolutely must change, then it's purely personal preference and ZOS does not owe you a race change token.Edited by Troodon80 on January 30, 2021 12:44PM@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics2 -
Integral1900✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭How is extra ice resistance any way of compensation! I can count the number of dangerous ice themed encounters in PVE on one hand! You might as well have given us extra immunity to charge damage from unicorns!2 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Correct me if I am wrong, but does physical & magical resistance wont count towards all dmg types now ? I mean I was looking at new "advanced" stats character sheet on PTS and it seem so, but I am not sure...0 -
Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I honestly don't know. The advanced stats seem a little wonky at the moment. I don't know what should or should not be affected. When I use Major Resolve, all the elemental resistance types see an increase in percentage.Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Correct me if I am wrong, but does physical & magical resistance wont count towards all dmg types now ? I mean I was looking at new "advanced" stats character sheet on PTS and it seem so, but I am not sure...@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭From a PVE perspective, I highly doubt that 2% difference is enough to care about. The ult gen on Nord for tanks is still very valuable. Worst case scenario, the change just switches builds around a tiny bit. Change a glyph or trait and you're back where you want to be. I imagine Nord will still be a top dog for some tank builds.
In PVP, almost every stat is valuable to almost every build. If you're a magicka player who likes to dodge a lot, you could even justify playing a Wood Elf and it wouldn't be a completely garbage choice - it would be a playstyle choice. For that reason, it's really important that race stats are balanced against each other. If you play, say, Orc vs Wood Elf on a Stamsorc - you can do similar damage on a Wood Elf with the Warrior Mundus vs the Orc with Serpent. Shift a few things around in your build and you end up with a similar build with small playstyle differences (for example Orc vs Wood Elf. Do you want more health or do you want to dodge roll with a bow for sanic speed?). Nord on live gives more resistances than you can make up for on other races with simple mundus/glyph/trait switching. The bonus is just straight up better than any of the other options.
This nerf was a long time coming. And I say this as someone who race swapped my Stamsorc to Nord because it's just straight up better. I'll probably stick to Nord as well because the ult gen is still really nice for spamming Negate as often as possible.
This 100% is what I've been saying for a while now.
Ever since protective and fortified brass nerf, nord has been well ahead of other races, if you cared about resistances. Ofc not every build wanted to be nord, but it was hard to pass up 4k resistances while not sacrificing anything.
This will force ppl to think about race a bit more.1 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »From a PVE perspective, I highly doubt that 2% difference is enough to care about. The ult gen on Nord for tanks is still very valuable. Worst case scenario, the change just switches builds around a tiny bit. Change a glyph or trait and you're back where you want to be. I imagine Nord will still be a top dog for some tank builds.
In PVP, almost every stat is valuable to almost every build. If you're a magicka player who likes to dodge a lot, you could even justify playing a Wood Elf and it wouldn't be a completely garbage choice - it would be a playstyle choice. For that reason, it's really important that race stats are balanced against each other. If you play, say, Orc vs Wood Elf on a Stamsorc - you can do similar damage on a Wood Elf with the Warrior Mundus vs the Orc with Serpent. Shift a few things around in your build and you end up with a similar build with small playstyle differences (for example Orc vs Wood Elf. Do you want more health or do you want to dodge roll with a bow for sanic speed?). Nord on live gives more resistances than you can make up for on other races with simple mundus/glyph/trait switching. The bonus is just straight up better than any of the other options.
This nerf was a long time coming. And I say this as someone who race swapped my Stamsorc to Nord because it's just straight up better. I'll probably stick to Nord as well because the ult gen is still really nice for spamming Negate as often as possible.
I have a magdk Nord with Steed Mundus stone.
2600 resistance from Nord
10% movement speed + 238 health recovery (119 per second)
Let's switch to Orc with the lady
2744 resistance
12% reduce sprint cost + 10 speed + 500 healthy regen per second.
And 258 spells damage.
Why should I pick Nord now?
Who use ice damage in pvp? Nobody, mag Warden? Mag Warden is so weak that we don't need 4k resistance.
In a pvp situation where you don't stand in front your opponent like a punching bag the Orc is more tank and make more dmg for sure.
Rip Nord.
In the comparison above you are forgetting that nord gets an extra 500 stam compared to orc, plus ulti gen. Also the speed from steed is all speed vs orc only being sprint speed. And in pvp the heal is less due to battle spirit and the health regen will be increased by fortitude and other passives.
So, taking it all in nord with steed vs orc with lady:
Health: 1000 each
Stamina: 1500 for nord, 1000 for orc
Resistance: 2600 for nord, 2744 for orc
Speed: 10% for nord at all times, whereas orc only gets this for sprint although also gets sprint cost reduction
Healing/Regen: Nord gets 238 recovery, so likely actually around 400 after passives/buffs. Orc gets equivalent of 1000 every 2 sec (unaffected by regen boosts), or 450 after battle spirit, but only while attacking
So everything there looks pretty even, if anything nord is ahead in my book due to the extra stam, unconditional speed boosts and unconditional regen.
And then it’s just the orcs damage bonus vs nords ulti gen, which is somewhat hard to compare. Possibly each could be better depending on build.
Looks pretty even to me.7 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
The way resistance calculations work in this game is that there are no diminishing returns on investing into resistance, unless you are at the resistance cap of 33,150 already. Resistances are also calculated additively within the same multiplicative coefficient for total damage mitigation calculations. This means that, assuming you aren't hitting the resistance cap already, the loss of resistance affects all armor types equally. If you take 200 more damage per attack in light armor after the change in resistances, you will also be taking 200 more damage per attack in heavy armor.
Also, for anybody who doesn't know, 661 resistance is equal to 1% of damage mitigation. So 1348/661 = ~2.04 mitigation. Nords are losing 2.04% damage mitigation.
To put that into perspective, if an attack deals 10k damage to you before the change, it will now deal 10,208 damage to you.
This is not how scaling works though. 2% resists from 98% to 100% is 2% more dmg taken, 2% resists from 50% to 52% is 4%~ dmg taken.
Okay, sure relativity plays some part in it. So let's do the math.
With full light armor plus major resolve (which I feel is a safe assumption that everyone here is using) and the old nord resistance bonus, you will be taking 73.68% of tool tip damage from resistances alone, without other modifiers.
In the same situation but with the new nord resistance passive, this will increase to taking 75.72% of tool tip damage.
To find the relative increase in damage taken, we have to complete 75.72/73.68, which equals to 1.028.
You will be taking 2.8% more damage compared to what you are already taking on live.
Taking less than 3% more relative damage will not break a build.
I am doing it genuinely from PvE tank perspective so your assumption is already wrong. But ye in PvP it will be closer to the 2%, just like the one after you mentioned, penetration also plays into it.
I did light armor because that is the worst case scenario, when the reduction in resistances will relatively produce the biggest increase to damage taken.
The higher the resistances, the lesser the relative increase to damage taken, so from the PvE tank perspective its even lower than the 2.8% increase to damage taken I outlined above.
No... The higher the resistance the higher the benefits....
At 0 resists damage taken goes from 100% to 98%, which is (100-98)/100=2% damage taken
At 31800 resists damage taken goes from 52% to 50%, which is (52-50)/52=3.84% damage taken.
So if u had an attack that dealt 10,000 in the first scenario you would take 10,000 before resistance lost, and 9,800 after, 200/10,000=2%
In the second scenario you would take 5,200 damage before the nerf, and 5,000 after the nerf, 200/5,200=3.84% increase.1 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭Integral1900 wrote: »How is extra ice resistance any way of compensation! I can count the number of dangerous ice themed encounters in PVE on one hand! You might as well have given us extra immunity to charge damage from unicorns!
In pve ok, but I'm talking about pvp. Ice is nothing in pvp for me.0 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭ExistingRug61 wrote: »UntouchableHunter wrote: »From a PVE perspective, I highly doubt that 2% difference is enough to care about. The ult gen on Nord for tanks is still very valuable. Worst case scenario, the change just switches builds around a tiny bit. Change a glyph or trait and you're back where you want to be. I imagine Nord will still be a top dog for some tank builds.
In PVP, almost every stat is valuable to almost every build. If you're a magicka player who likes to dodge a lot, you could even justify playing a Wood Elf and it wouldn't be a completely garbage choice - it would be a playstyle choice. For that reason, it's really important that race stats are balanced against each other. If you play, say, Orc vs Wood Elf on a Stamsorc - you can do similar damage on a Wood Elf with the Warrior Mundus vs the Orc with Serpent. Shift a few things around in your build and you end up with a similar build with small playstyle differences (for example Orc vs Wood Elf. Do you want more health or do you want to dodge roll with a bow for sanic speed?). Nord on live gives more resistances than you can make up for on other races with simple mundus/glyph/trait switching. The bonus is just straight up better than any of the other options.
This nerf was a long time coming. And I say this as someone who race swapped my Stamsorc to Nord because it's just straight up better. I'll probably stick to Nord as well because the ult gen is still really nice for spamming Negate as often as possible.
I have a magdk Nord with Steed Mundus stone.
2600 resistance from Nord
10% movement speed + 238 health recovery (119 per second)
Let's switch to Orc with the lady
2744 resistance
12% reduce sprint cost + 10 speed + 500 healthy regen per second.
And 258 spells damage.
Why should I pick Nord now?
Who use ice damage in pvp? Nobody, mag Warden? Mag Warden is so weak that we don't need 4k resistance.
In a pvp situation where you don't stand in front your opponent like a punching bag the Orc is more tank and make more dmg for sure.
Rip Nord.
In the comparison above you are forgetting that nord gets an extra 500 stam compared to orc, plus ulti gen. Also the speed from steed is all speed vs orc only being sprint speed. And in pvp the heal is less due to battle spirit and the health regen will be increased by fortitude and other passives.
So, taking it all in nord with steed vs orc with lady:
Health: 1000 each
Stamina: 1500 for nord, 1000 for orc
Resistance: 2600 for nord, 2744 for orc
Speed: 10% for nord at all times, whereas orc only gets this for sprint although also gets sprint cost reduction
Healing/Regen: Nord gets 238 recovery, so likely actually around 400 after passives/buffs. Orc gets equivalent of 1000 every 2 sec (unaffected by regen boosts), or 450 after battle spirit, but only while attacking
So everything there looks pretty even, if anything nord is ahead in my book due to the extra stam, unconditional speed boosts and unconditional regen.
And then it’s just the orcs damage bonus vs nords ulti gen, which is somewhat hard to compare. Possibly each could be better depending on build.
Looks pretty even to me.
Liked.
And you right depends of the playstile. As a magdk, we are on attacking and making pressure all the time. When we go defensive we are dead.
That's why the Orc regen heally make sense and the speed in pvp and the reduce cost is amazing because we are running all the time or chasing or quitting.
I forgot about battle spirit and the health heals reduction, but still better for me.
About ultimate regen I think the weapon damage will help my playstile with dots and area damage for everywhere more then the ult regen.
But you put everything correctly the heals will be not so good as I thought thank you. [/quote]
Edited by UntouchableHunter on January 30, 2021 6:19PM0 -
CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »Why ZOS???
I will not buy a race token.
If you give us a token I could choose another race.
But forget make some money with token race change.
I think 3500 or 3200 could acceptable.
But 2600 in race that have only the resistance and nothing wells is to much.
It's a nerf from 6.5% damage reduction to 4.3%. I wouldn't qualify that as destruction.
Are those surprise racial balance unwelcome? Perhaps, especially when adapting your builds to those changes involve real money...Edited by CleymenZero on January 30, 2021 6:44PM0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is a good change. People have options.
Though now the Dark Elves are clearly top for both magicka and stamina combat. That's what people should be complaining about. Not the Nords being balanced.1 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
The way resistance calculations work in this game is that there are no diminishing returns on investing into resistance, unless you are at the resistance cap of 33,150 already. Resistances are also calculated additively within the same multiplicative coefficient for total damage mitigation calculations. This means that, assuming you aren't hitting the resistance cap already, the loss of resistance affects all armor types equally. If you take 200 more damage per attack in light armor after the change in resistances, you will also be taking 200 more damage per attack in heavy armor.
Also, for anybody who doesn't know, 661 resistance is equal to 1% of damage mitigation. So 1348/661 = ~2.04 mitigation. Nords are losing 2.04% damage mitigation.
To put that into perspective, if an attack deals 10k damage to you before the change, it will now deal 10,208 damage to you.
This is not how scaling works though. 2% resists from 98% to 100% is 2% more dmg taken, 2% resists from 50% to 52% is 4%~ dmg taken.
Okay, sure relativity plays some part in it. So let's do the math.
With full light armor plus major resolve (which I feel is a safe assumption that everyone here is using) and the old nord resistance bonus, you will be taking 73.68% of tool tip damage from resistances alone, without other modifiers.
In the same situation but with the new nord resistance passive, this will increase to taking 75.72% of tool tip damage.
To find the relative increase in damage taken, we have to complete 75.72/73.68, which equals to 1.028.
You will be taking 2.8% more damage compared to what you are already taking on live.
Taking less than 3% more relative damage will not break a build.
I am doing it genuinely from PvE tank perspective so your assumption is already wrong. But ye in PvP it will be closer to the 2%, just like the one after you mentioned, penetration also plays into it.
I did light armor because that is the worst case scenario, when the reduction in resistances will relatively produce the biggest increase to damage taken.
The higher the resistances, the lesser the relative increase to damage taken, so from the PvE tank perspective its even lower than the 2.8% increase to damage taken I outlined above.
No... The higher the resistance the higher the benefits....
At 0 resists damage taken goes from 100% to 98%, which is (100-98)/100=2% damage taken
At 31800 resists damage taken goes from 52% to 50%, which is (52-50)/52=3.84% damage taken.
So if u had an attack that dealt 10,000 in the first scenario you would take 10,000 before resistance lost, and 9,800 after, 200/10,000=2%
In the second scenario you would take 5,200 damage before the nerf, and 5,000 after the nerf, 200/5,200=3.84% increase.
Oh, you're right. That's totally my bad.
That makes this even more nonsensical:UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
1 -
UntouchableHunter✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
The way resistance calculations work in this game is that there are no diminishing returns on investing into resistance, unless you are at the resistance cap of 33,150 already. Resistances are also calculated additively within the same multiplicative coefficient for total damage mitigation calculations. This means that, assuming you aren't hitting the resistance cap already, the loss of resistance affects all armor types equally. If you take 200 more damage per attack in light armor after the change in resistances, you will also be taking 200 more damage per attack in heavy armor.
Also, for anybody who doesn't know, 661 resistance is equal to 1% of damage mitigation. So 1348/661 = ~2.04 mitigation. Nords are losing 2.04% damage mitigation.
To put that into perspective, if an attack deals 10k damage to you before the change, it will now deal 10,208 damage to you.
This is not how scaling works though. 2% resists from 98% to 100% is 2% more dmg taken, 2% resists from 50% to 52% is 4%~ dmg taken.
Okay, sure relativity plays some part in it. So let's do the math.
With full light armor plus major resolve (which I feel is a safe assumption that everyone here is using) and the old nord resistance bonus, you will be taking 73.68% of tool tip damage from resistances alone, without other modifiers.
In the same situation but with the new nord resistance passive, this will increase to taking 75.72% of tool tip damage.
To find the relative increase in damage taken, we have to complete 75.72/73.68, which equals to 1.028.
You will be taking 2.8% more damage compared to what you are already taking on live.
Taking less than 3% more relative damage will not break a build.
I am doing it genuinely from PvE tank perspective so your assumption is already wrong. But ye in PvP it will be closer to the 2%, just like the one after you mentioned, penetration also plays into it.
I did light armor because that is the worst case scenario, when the reduction in resistances will relatively produce the biggest increase to damage taken.
The higher the resistances, the lesser the relative increase to damage taken, so from the PvE tank perspective its even lower than the 2.8% increase to damage taken I outlined above.
No... The higher the resistance the higher the benefits....
At 0 resists damage taken goes from 100% to 98%, which is (100-98)/100=2% damage taken
At 31800 resists damage taken goes from 52% to 50%, which is (52-50)/52=3.84% damage taken.
So if u had an attack that dealt 10,000 in the first scenario you would take 10,000 before resistance lost, and 9,800 after, 200/10,000=2%
In the second scenario you would take 5,200 damage before the nerf, and 5,000 after the nerf, 200/5,200=3.84% increase.
Oh, you're right. That's totally my bad.
That makes this even more nonsensical:UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
If the numbers are right on the PTS I felt a huge difference with light armor and if the numbers are right we are talking now about 3.84% nerf dmg mitigation and not "only 2%" so almost two times more.
Will be funny see people saying now that 3.84% damage mitigation is nothing...0 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭UntouchableHunter wrote: »UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
The way resistance calculations work in this game is that there are no diminishing returns on investing into resistance, unless you are at the resistance cap of 33,150 already. Resistances are also calculated additively within the same multiplicative coefficient for total damage mitigation calculations. This means that, assuming you aren't hitting the resistance cap already, the loss of resistance affects all armor types equally. If you take 200 more damage per attack in light armor after the change in resistances, you will also be taking 200 more damage per attack in heavy armor.
Also, for anybody who doesn't know, 661 resistance is equal to 1% of damage mitigation. So 1348/661 = ~2.04 mitigation. Nords are losing 2.04% damage mitigation.
To put that into perspective, if an attack deals 10k damage to you before the change, it will now deal 10,208 damage to you.
This is not how scaling works though. 2% resists from 98% to 100% is 2% more dmg taken, 2% resists from 50% to 52% is 4%~ dmg taken.
Okay, sure relativity plays some part in it. So let's do the math.
With full light armor plus major resolve (which I feel is a safe assumption that everyone here is using) and the old nord resistance bonus, you will be taking 73.68% of tool tip damage from resistances alone, without other modifiers.
In the same situation but with the new nord resistance passive, this will increase to taking 75.72% of tool tip damage.
To find the relative increase in damage taken, we have to complete 75.72/73.68, which equals to 1.028.
You will be taking 2.8% more damage compared to what you are already taking on live.
Taking less than 3% more relative damage will not break a build.
I am doing it genuinely from PvE tank perspective so your assumption is already wrong. But ye in PvP it will be closer to the 2%, just like the one after you mentioned, penetration also plays into it.
I did light armor because that is the worst case scenario, when the reduction in resistances will relatively produce the biggest increase to damage taken.
The higher the resistances, the lesser the relative increase to damage taken, so from the PvE tank perspective its even lower than the 2.8% increase to damage taken I outlined above.
No... The higher the resistance the higher the benefits....
At 0 resists damage taken goes from 100% to 98%, which is (100-98)/100=2% damage taken
At 31800 resists damage taken goes from 52% to 50%, which is (52-50)/52=3.84% damage taken.
So if u had an attack that dealt 10,000 in the first scenario you would take 10,000 before resistance lost, and 9,800 after, 200/10,000=2%
In the second scenario you would take 5,200 damage before the nerf, and 5,000 after the nerf, 200/5,200=3.84% increase.
Oh, you're right. That's totally my bad.
That makes this even more nonsensical:UntouchableHunter wrote: »
The thing is, it's not even chasing meta. There is nothing wrong with Nord as a tank race (nor is there anything wrong with any race). It's a case of people not actually testing on the PTS to see the differences, but merely reading the patch notes and assuming the sky is falling.StarOfElyon wrote: »
I did test on th PTS and this change is huge when you play in a light armor. Huge.
If the numbers are right on the PTS I felt a huge difference with light armor and if the numbers are right we are talking now about 3.84% nerf dmg mitigation and not "only 2%" so almost two times more.
Will be funny see people saying now that 3.84% damage mitigation is nothing...
It is a loss of almost exactly ~2.04% damage mitigation. While at max resistances, ie the scenario in which this loss of mitigation affects relative damage taken the absolute most, this results in 3.84% more damage taken relative to the damage you would have taken pre-nerf, not even flat damage taken as viewed on the character stat sheet.
As a tank, if your health is dropping to 3.84% in any situation, you are likely dead anyway. Hardly ever, if at all, tanks let themselves get below 25% health, and if they do its likely they've messed up a mechanic or let their buffs/heals slip off and are dead anyway. A reduction in relative damage taken of 3.84% wouldn't save them anyway, only proper execution of game mechanics or buff maintenance would have.Edited by twing1_ on January 30, 2021 9:36PM1