Heavy Armor Is Too Strong in PVP

GrimTheReaper45

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I agree heavy feels very dominant on both the PTS and live.

I would suggest that damage is reduced on heavy or medium and light increased.
In keeping with aim of the armor changes perhaps a skill cost increase per heavy piece worn would be appropriate. This would be a less direct way of adjusting damage and makes sense that physically it requires more effort to do anything in heavy armor. It would also sense to do the opposite and increase the skill cost passive for light and medium.

I think the best option would be a damage done on heavy is less penalty. Zos is clearly trying to nerf dps already so increasing damage on light and medium is unlikely. Also it wouldnt hurt pve tanks like an increased cost penalty or the current changes would.

sabresandiego_ESO

Even with todays minor nerf to heavy, it is by far the strongest armor in PVP. This armor type needs a straight move speed reduction to be brought in line.

Dracane

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Even with todays minor nerf to heavy, it is by far the strongest armor in PVP. This armor type needs a straight move speed reduction to be brought in line.

Indeed. If 7% damage reduction or 14%, does not matter. Any way means heavy only gets even more mandatory, especially with damage being a lot higher next patch. Means its even easier to deal damage in heavy and even more important to be in to survive that damage.

This patch has done nothing but amplify the proc heavy meta we have.

BattleAxe

Why only 5% in 5 heavy malacath entirely negates this penalty so if you run 7 heavy you lose 10%damage done. Alternatively I suggest a steeper damage penalty 10% per piece if they remove the 1% mag damage taken and instead make it 1% less magickal and physical damage taken. This way if you build as a tank you won’t dish out any real damage in heavy however you will be able to resist incredible amounts of damage at the cost of roll dodge. Yes this will make for essentially unkillable tanks in pvp but the reality is most players ignore tanks till last already also this will effectively give tanks even more mitigation in pve trials and dungeons so healers will need to worry less on tanks save for sustain issues and can focus heals on the damage dealers more efficiently.

ESO_Nightingale

Dracane wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Even with todays minor nerf to heavy, it is by far the strongest armor in PVP. This armor type needs a straight move speed reduction to be brought in line.

Indeed. If 7% damage reduction or 14%, does not matter. Any way means heavy only gets even more mandatory, especially with damage being a lot higher next patch. Means its even easier to deal damage in heavy and even more important to be in to survive that damage.

This patch has done nothing but amplify the proc heavy meta we have.

Especially because they nerfed light armor for literally no reason other than rp.

itscompton

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I agree heavy feels very dominant on both the PTS and live.

I would suggest that damage is reduced on heavy or medium and light increased.
In keeping with aim of the armor changes perhaps a skill cost increase per heavy piece worn would be appropriate. This would be a less direct way of adjusting damage and makes sense that physically it requires more effort to do anything in heavy armor. It would also sense to do the opposite and increase the skill cost passive for light and medium.

I get your thought process and I myself PvP 95% of my time in game but people really need to take into account how a suggestion like this will affect PvE as well. A 2-3% damage reduction per piece for heavy would be a far friendlier solution for PvE tanks than stripping them of their recovery.
How often is a group going to wipe because a tank is doing 4.25K DPS instead of 5K? Not often if ever. But a tank runs out of resources for even a second at the wrong moment and that's the start of a wipe.

relentless_turnip

I said in another post, heavy should lose its weakness to magic and have equal mitigation to physical and magical damage. It's should instead have -3-4% damage done per piece as a penalty.

Medium should gain a penalty to magical damage and have the benefit of weapon damage increased from 2% WD per piece to 3-4%.

This way heavy will make you hard to kill, but hard to kill anyone else. Medium and light counter each other.

Sangwyne

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Even with todays minor nerf to heavy, it is by far the strongest armor in PVP. This armor type needs a straight move speed reduction to be brought in line.

What a joke. People who have no clue what they're talking about and that have never bothered to tank any real content dictating the gutting of tanks in PvE on the basis of a few abuse cases in PvP. Heavy armor on the PTS already has more penalties and fewer bonuses than any other armor type, including a reduction to sprint speed while wearing heavy, and received even more nerfs in PTS 6.3.2 and 6.3.3, yet there's still folks that think it deserves harsher nerfs, including further nerfs to move speed that will only kill off the already dwindling PvE tank population. It's clear that ZOS would rather cater to the PvP crowd and DPS players than actual tanks, which I guess I can understand, seeing as how tanks make up such a small portion of players, but gutting tanks like this won't fix the state of PvP in the long run; people will simply swap to whatever proc set is meta and continue to abuse Malacath alongside things like Syvarra's, Vateshran Wrath of Elements, etc. I posted a 2833 word discussion regarding the current state of tanking and how we can expect it to only go downhill next patch here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561210/pts-changes-aimed-at-pvp-will-indirectly-hurt-pve-tanking-and-queue-times/p1, and have yet to receive any actual arguments against any of the points I brought up, because a fair amount of people don't actually understand how frustrating it is to tank as they've never done it; they'd rather just post threads like these clamoring for more nerfs to tanks regardless of how tanks are actually performing in PvE.

Dracane

Sangwyne wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Even with todays minor nerf to heavy, it is by far the strongest armor in PVP. This armor type needs a straight move speed reduction to be brought in line.

What a joke. People who have no clue what they're talking about and that have never bothered to tank any real content dictating the gutting of tanks in PvE on the basis of a few abuse cases in PvP. Heavy armor on the PTS already has more penalties and fewer bonuses than any other armor type, including a reduction to sprint speed while wearing heavy, and received even more nerfs in PTS 6.3.2 and 6.3.3, yet there's still folks that think it deserves harsher nerfs, including further nerfs to move speed that will only kill off the already dwindling PvE tank population. It's clear that ZOS would rather cater to the PvP crowd and DPS players than actual tanks, which I guess I can understand, seeing as how tanks make up such a small portion of players, but gutting tanks like this won't fix the state of PvP in the long run; people will simply swap to whatever proc set is meta and continue to abuse Malacath alongside things like Syvarra's, Vateshran Wrath of Elements, etc. I posted a 2833 word discussion regarding the current state of tanking and how we can expect it to only go downhill next patch here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/561210/pts-changes-aimed-at-pvp-will-indirectly-hurt-pve-tanking-and-queue-times/p1, and have yet to receive any actual arguments against any of the points I brought up, because a fair amount of people don't actually understand how frustrating it is to tank as they've never done it; they'd rather just post threads like these clamoring for more nerfs to tanks regardless of how tanks are actually performing in PvE.

(Assuming this is still complaining about heavy armor taking a bit of extra magic damage) You mean tanks who only care about trials but not about hard veteran dungeons; where physical damage dominates the realm and magic damage takes a backseat? Most DLC dungeons have uppercut or physical heavy attack spamming bosses or elite adds as well as a fetish for poison damage. Seeing magic heavy attacks (those with white sparkles that force you to block or dodge) are seldom magic in nature these days.

So as far as I am concerned, heavy armor just got better for a majority of the content, while any other armor type tank became even less viable. A good and experienced heavy armor tank will not suddenly turn to ash because a dot or heavy attacks suddenly deals a few % more damage. If you survived that before, so will you now. Just like I as a light armor tank will still be able to survive all those physical heavy attacks.

This is all so overdramatized. You take a bit more damage from one type, but also less from the other. You will live.

ExistingRug61

If it is the case that Heavy Armour may be the strongest choice for PvP (it also looks to me like it will be strong but I can't test so am sort of reserving judgement until I get to test and experience it), then even in that case I think it prudent to be very careful about the type of nerfs suggested as it already looks a bit worse for PvE tanking and I don't think it is a good idea to compound that just for PvP.

For example:
If we want to make heavy have less mitigation against other PvP players (especially those that aren't in heavy themselves) while also not really changing anything for PvE, it could be something like change the damage reduction while CC immune to damage reduction from non-critical damage while CC immune. (Yes this would also depend on Crit builds getting a bit more viability in the Malacath meta though)
Or if it is to be a movement speed penalty at least make it be an in combat only move speed penalty so that it doesn't slow down a group running between dungeon fights or inconvenience someone questing through overworld.

Personally I also don't really like the idea of a damage penalty on heavy as this seems like a bit of a band-aid fix. The damage differential should come from the damage passives Light and Medium receive. I think it more important that each armour type have some sort of defensive weakness that an opposing player can exploit (with the extent of the weakness or ease of exploitation varying between the types to balance their potential damage), and potentially that doesn't really exist for Heavy in PvP right now - as it is currently even with its magicka weakness Heavy still takes less magicka damage in PvP than either Light or Medium due to its higher base armour and the damage reduction while CC immune effect.

Urzigurumash

relentless_turnip wrote: »

This way heavy will make you hard to kill, but hard to kill anyone else.

Why do you think if damage output in Heavy were nerfed the masses of players in Heavy would happily switch to playing a horse-riding simulator in ninja gear rather than just continuing to play with diminished damage and extending the general TTK?

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

I think it more important that each armour type have some sort of defensive weakness that an opposing player can exploit (with the extent of the weakness or ease of exploitation varying between the types to balance their potential damage), and potentially that doesn't really exist for Heavy in PvP right now

DOTs could use a buff to this end. Once they're applied, DOTs can't be blocked, and they can't be roll-dodged either - generally - but in Medium you have a better chance of evading until they expire, rather than sitting there and soaking up additional DOTs in Heavy. Heavy armor builds melted in BGs during the DOT meta. Sure they're mitigated by Heavy's additional resistances, but not as well as they are by Damage Shields, so in my opinion DOTs are relatively stronger against Heavy than Medium and Light.

ExistingRug61

Urzigurumash wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

I think it more important that each armour type have some sort of defensive weakness that an opposing player can exploit (with the extent of the weakness or ease of exploitation varying between the types to balance their potential damage), and potentially that doesn't really exist for Heavy in PvP right now

DOTs could use a buff to this end. Once they're applied, DOTs can't be blocked, and they can't be roll-dodged either - generally - but in Medium you have a better chance of evading until they expire, rather than sitting there and soaking up additional DOTs in Heavy. Heavy armor builds melted in BGs during the DOT meta. Sure they're mitigated by Heavy's additional resistances, but not as well as they are by Damage Shields, so in my opinion DOTs are relatively stronger against Heavy than Medium and Light.

Yes something like that would work as well. Or even further build that weakness into the armour types. I think I suggested something similar in another thread - an alternative change to the mitigation while cc immune would be to make it only apply to direct damage (although this would be worse for pve than the current version, which ideally I would like to avoid)

Could go even further and have Direct vs Dot weakness and resistance replacing the new physical and magical resistances on the armour pieces, but that’s unlikely to happen now. Not sure how that would affect pve, but may be more interesting in pvp as it means both stam and mag get a method of attacking all armour types (ie: burst kills light, dots kill heavy, either ok but not great against medium). Would also be nice as this would then interact with slottable cp stars allowing players to either balance or double down on the mitigation type if they chose.

Urzigurumash

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Yes something like that would work as well. Or even further build that weakness into the armour types. I think I suggested something similar in another thread - an alternative change to the mitigation while cc immune would be to make it only apply to direct damage (although this would be worse for pve than the current version, which ideally I would like to avoid)

Could go even further and have Direct vs Dot weakness and resistance replacing the new physical and magical resistances on the armour pieces, but that’s unlikely to happen now. Not sure how that would affect pve, but may be more interesting in pvp as it means both stam and mag get a method of attacking all armour types. Would also be nice as this would then interact with slottable cp stars allowing players to either balance or double down on the mitigation type if they chose.

It's great we have a new effect back for Bleed damage, but I'm of the opinion way more of these Status Effects should have the old Bleed effect of bypassing resistances. Thematically, why is Poisoned mitigated by Armor or Damage Shields at all?

sabresandiego_ESO

The bottom line is you can run 6 or 7 heavy and do massive damage, have massive mitigation, plenty of sustain, and move as fast as any of the lighter armors. The pvp balance of armor is completely broken with almost all top tier players running mostly heavy, especially in higher end organized pvp. And nocp armor balance will be even worse next patch since medium and light armor cant slot the juggernaut perk for added survivability after a cc, but heavy gets a lesser version of it inately.

munster1404

Urzigurumash wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It's not my idea but in terms of Heavy Armor reforms:

Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece (for the sake of all of the PvE tanks out there);

Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece.

Heavy should hit for more than Medium, since it weighs more, if it's melee direct damage. Heavy's downside should be sustain and speed, not damage.

I'm sick of this, no more nerfs to my sustain. CP 2.0 has done enough to hurt it already.

Urzigurumash

munster1404 wrote: »

I'm sick of this, no more nerfs to my sustain. CP 2.0 has done enough to hurt it already.

I wasn't calling for any nerfs, sustain is already better in Medium and Light. As far as I know, the Constitution passive only outperforms the Light and Medium sustain passives for hybrid-like builds that block a bunch, i.e. actual tanks. Heavy DDs most certainly have worse sustain than Light or Medium DDs.

Sahidom

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

@relentless_turnip

Heavy Armor Bonuses
Reduces your damage taken while immune to crowd control by 2% per piece worn

Everyone gets the 15% base mitigation.. not just heavy armor wearers.

I wonder whether or not this mitigation is minimum i.e. that cannot be reduced by offensive penetration since they've posted the resistance cap at 50%/33,000. Does anyone know whether this is the floor or will offensive penetration can still zero a person's resistances out?

Starlight_Whisper

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I agree heavy feels very dominant on both the PTS and live.

I would suggest that damage is reduced on heavy or medium and light increased.
In keeping with aim of the armor changes perhaps a skill cost increase per heavy piece worn would be appropriate. This would be a less direct way of adjusting damage and makes sense that physically it requires more effort to do anything in heavy armor. It would also sense to do the opposite and increase the skill cost passive for light and medium.

I think the best option would be a damage done on heavy is less penalty. Zos is clearly trying to nerf dps already so increasing damage on light and medium is unlikely. Also it wouldnt hurt pve tanks like an increased cost penalty or the current changes would.

It makes sense

ExistingRug61

Sahidom wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

@relentless_turnip

Heavy Armor Bonuses
Reduces your damage taken while immune to crowd control by 2% per piece worn

Everyone gets the 15% base mitigation.. not just heavy armor wearers.

I wonder whether or not this mitigation is minimum i.e. that cannot be reduced by offensive penetration since they've posted the resistance cap at 50%/33,000. Does anyone know whether this is the floor or will offensive penetration can still zero a person's resistances out?

The base mitigation is 10% - the 15% value was an error in the original patch notes that was corrected in a later update.

The base mitigation is just an independent multiplicative percentage reduction (works like protection buff as far as I am aware), so it’s independent of the armour/penetration system, ie: regardless of how much or how little their resistance (after pen) reduces damage, whatever the resulting damage is will always be then reduced by another 10% multiplicatively.

relentless_turnip

Urzigurumash wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

This way heavy will make you hard to kill, but hard to kill anyone else.

Why do you think if damage output in Heavy were nerfed the masses of players in Heavy would happily switch to playing a horse-riding simulator in ninja gear rather than just continuing to play with diminished damage and extending the general TTK?

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

I think it more important that each armour type have some sort of defensive weakness that an opposing player can exploit (with the extent of the weakness or ease of exploitation varying between the types to balance their potential damage), and potentially that doesn't really exist for Heavy in PvP right now

DOTs could use a buff to this end. Once they're applied, DOTs can't be blocked, and they can't be roll-dodged either - generally - but in Medium you have a better chance of evading until they expire, rather than sitting there and soaking up additional DOTs in Heavy. Heavy armor builds melted in BGs during the DOT meta. Sure they're mitigated by Heavy's additional resistances, but not as well as they are by Damage Shields, so in my opinion DOTs are relatively stronger against Heavy than Medium and Light.

I think if a person was given the choice between a 20-28% damage reduction and being unkillable or a 20-28% damage buff and being squishy. Many people will choose damage or at the very least a mix of armor types.

relentless_turnip

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

The bottom line is you can run 6 or 7 heavy and do massive damage, have massive mitigation, plenty of sustain, and move as fast as any of the lighter armors. The pvp balance of armor is completely broken with almost all top tier players running mostly heavy, especially in higher end organized pvp. And nocp armor balance will be even worse next patch since medium and light armor cant slot the juggernaut perk for added survivability after a cc, but heavy gets a lesser version of it inately.

The vate 2h also encourages the use of the heavy armor passive...

relentless_turnip

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

@relentless_turnip

Heavy Armor Bonuses
Reduces your damage taken while immune to crowd control by 2% per piece worn

Everyone gets the 15% base mitigation.. not just heavy armor wearers.

I wonder whether or not this mitigation is minimum i.e. that cannot be reduced by offensive penetration since they've posted the resistance cap at 50%/33,000. Does anyone know whether this is the floor or will offensive penetration can still zero a person's resistances out?

The base mitigation is 10% - the 15% value was an error in the original patch notes that was corrected in a later update.

The base mitigation is just an independent multiplicative percentage reduction (works like protection buff as far as I am aware), so it’s independent of the armour/penetration system, ie: regardless of how much or how little their resistance (after pen) reduces damage, whatever the resulting damage is will always be then reduced by another 10% multiplicatively.

Battlespirit passive has also been changed so this has no impact on PvP. It also isn't independent of the current system as battlespirit damage received was changed to 44%. That and the base 10% amounts to 49.6% damage mitigation.

ExistingRug61

relentless_turnip wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

@relentless_turnip

Heavy Armor Bonuses
Reduces your damage taken while immune to crowd control by 2% per piece worn

Everyone gets the 15% base mitigation.. not just heavy armor wearers.

I wonder whether or not this mitigation is minimum i.e. that cannot be reduced by offensive penetration since they've posted the resistance cap at 50%/33,000. Does anyone know whether this is the floor or will offensive penetration can still zero a person's resistances out?

The base mitigation is 10% - the 15% value was an error in the original patch notes that was corrected in a later update.

The base mitigation is just an independent multiplicative percentage reduction (works like protection buff as far as I am aware), so it’s independent of the armour/penetration system, ie: regardless of how much or how little their resistance (after pen) reduces damage, whatever the resulting damage is will always be then reduced by another 10% multiplicatively.

Battlespirit passive has also been changed so this has no impact on PvP. It also isn't independent of the current system as battlespirit damage received was changed to 44%. That and the base 10% amounts to 49.6% damage mitigation.

Yeah that’s right, I was speaking in the context the armour/penetration system and that the base mitigation is an independent multiplier with respect to that. ie the base mitigation isn’t additive with armour mitigation and cannot be reduced or avoided by penetration.

Trayyacakes

What if... They just buff light and medium to keep up somehow... As long as there are magicka classes with next to no mobility, melee damage skills, no purge, and no good damage shields an over Nerf to heavy is probably a bad idea...