Heavy Armor Is Too Strong in PVP

sabresandiego_ESO

All you have to do is wear malacath and a few swift and well fitted pieces and you cancel most of the negatives of heavy, do almost as much damage as medium/light in pvp, and are extremely tanky. The drawbacks of heavy need to be significantly more pronounced so that if you really want to counter balance it you'd have to go all in on well fitted and swift. I'd suggest a straight -3% percent move speed per piece of heavy so that you actually feel noticeably slower when wearing lots of heavy and would need 3 swift to perfectly counter balance 7 heavy. Perhaps also increase the dodge roll penalty to -6% so that you need 1 well fitted to counter balance each piece of heavy. Balance this armor so that it actually has drawbacks in pvp.

MashmalloMan

While I agree to some extent, isn't the issue more involving Malacath and how that behaves with Proc sets and the ability to completely ignore crit chance/crit resist or really any required investment into damage related stats.

StarOfElyon

Not just heavy. But heavy combined with races that are inherently tanky like Nords and Imperials. All reward, zero risk.

BattleAxe

The solution isn’t to nerf an armor set that will effectively hurt an entirely separate half of this game. As was stated the mythic item is the primary culprit for why heavy armor builds are so strong in pvp. Easiest solution that has been stated by players before is simply change malacath to not effect proc sets this in and of itself will reduce a lot of the problems.

sabresandiego_ESO

BattleAxe wrote: »

The solution isn’t to nerf an armor set that will effectively hurt an entirely separate half of this game. As was stated the mythic item is the primary culprit for why heavy armor builds are so strong in pvp. Easiest solution that has been stated by players before is simply change malacath to not effect proc sets this in and of itself will reduce a lot of the problems.

Full heavy armor with no procs and just stats is overperforming as well. Procs aren't the problem this PTS, since the change to base stats was a huge indirect nerf to procs. Malacath with heavy is just too strong.

Girl_Number8

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

All you have to do is wear malacath and a few swift and well fitted pieces and you cancel most of the negatives of heavy, do almost as much damage as medium/light in pvp, and are extremely tanky. The drawbacks of heavy need to be significantly more pronounced so that if you really want to counter balance it you'd have to go all in on well fitted and swift. I'd suggest a straight -3% percent move speed per piece of heavy so that you actually feel noticeably slower when wearing lots of heavy and would need 3 swift to perfectly counter balance 7 heavy. Perhaps also increase the dodge roll penalty to -6% so that you need 1 well fitted to counter balance each piece of heavy. Balance this armor so that it actually has drawbacks in pvp.

Have you even tested PvP content on the PTS with other peeps beyond friends?

Please give and show detailed information in the extensive testing you did. I mean the PTS just started, so I am curious if your just making claims off of reading the forums or actual testing....

Urzigurumash

You can only nerf Heavy so much before we all don Mech Acuity and Vicious Death. With all the complaints about Malacath the complaints about Mech Acuity seem rather scarce, but which item set is more represented at the top of the leaderboards?

YandereGirlfriend

It's not my idea but in terms of Heavy Armor reforms:

Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece (for the sake of all of the PvE tanks out there);

Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece.

Urzigurumash

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It's not my idea but in terms of Heavy Armor reforms:

Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece (for the sake of all of the PvE tanks out there);

Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece.

Heavy should hit for more than Medium, since it weighs more, if it's melee direct damage. Heavy's downside should be sustain and speed, not damage.

Urzigurumash

Regarding Mech Acuity vs Malacath: Mech Acuity gets a buff next patch via Battleaxes, but Malacath and Procs both get a nerf via Mauls.

olsborg

IMO, they need to make Malacath only affect things that can/could crit in the first place. Boosting something (proccsets) that already couldnt crit is very, very wrong and broken.
Also they need to nerf the heavy armor bonus that straight up reduces dmg taken by 2% per piece whilst CC immune. Think about it, its frickin 14% dmg reduction with a very high uptime in pvp.

selig_fay

olsborg wrote: »

IMO, they need to make Malacath only affect things that can/could crit in the first place. Boosting something (proccsets) that already couldnt crit is very, very wrong and broken.
Also they need to nerf the heavy armor bonus that straight up reduces dmg taken by 2% per piece whilst CC immune. Think about it, its frickin 14% dmg reduction with a very high uptime in pvp.

But you actually lose the ability to hide. 14% resistance versus 70% detection radius. I think this is a tough choice.

YandereGirlfriend

olsborg wrote: »

IMO, they need to make Malacath only affect things that can/could crit in the first place. Boosting something (proccsets) that already couldnt crit is very, very wrong and broken.
Also they need to nerf the heavy armor bonus that straight up reduces dmg taken by 2% per piece whilst CC immune. Think about it, its frickin 14% dmg reduction with a very high uptime in pvp.

Completely agree. I would also argue that Malacath's should disallow Critical Healing as well.

PeterUnlustig

selig_fay wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

IMO, they need to make Malacath only affect things that can/could crit in the first place. Boosting something (proccsets) that already couldnt crit is very, very wrong and broken.
Also they need to nerf the heavy armor bonus that straight up reduces dmg taken by 2% per piece whilst CC immune. Think about it, its frickin 14% dmg reduction with a very high uptime in pvp.

But you actually lose the ability to hide. 14% resistance versus 70% detection radius. I think this is a tough choice.

Lul what? Have you ever played pvp? No one is sneaking on a 50k health proc heavy build

Stahlor

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Heavy should hit for more than Medium, since it weighs more, if it's melee direct damage. Heavy's downside should be sustain and speed, not damage.

A heavy weapon should hit for more. I can't see a reason, why wearing heavy armour should hit for more? Your arm has more mass, but also has to be accelerated. I doubt that would cause more damage.
Heavy armour speed + attack speed has to be slower. Increased magicka damage makes no sense at all. This + increased dodge roll cost will affect PVE massively.

Ascarl

IMHO the best approach is nerf Malacath first and then see how things sort out.

GrimTheReaper45

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It's not my idea but in terms of Heavy Armor reforms:

Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece (for the sake of all of the PvE tanks out there);

Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece.

This 100%

the whole change to armor should be

heavy does less damage and if they think its necessary the can nerf light resist

non of this weak to certain things, try and fail to choose your armor cost, increased block whatever stuff

Keep it simple zos

selig_fay

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

selig_fay wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

IMO, they need to make Malacath only affect things that can/could crit in the first place. Boosting something (proccsets) that already couldnt crit is very, very wrong and broken.
Also they need to nerf the heavy armor bonus that straight up reduces dmg taken by 2% per piece whilst CC immune. Think about it, its frickin 14% dmg reduction with a very high uptime in pvp.

But you actually lose the ability to hide. 14% resistance versus 70% detection radius. I think this is a tough choice.

Lul what? Have you ever played pvp? No one is sneaking on a 50k health proc heavy build

So there are no other builds? Are you sure that you will not need stealth in the new realities?
I just want to say that people make a big problem out of it. Yes, stealth is not a problem for tanks, but dps / healers in heavy armor will think about it. I also think about vampire resist, which is good enough, but not many people are willing to deal with sustain problems for that. In any case, maybe the resist should be slightly reduced, but only tests can show this. But I don't think that's a lot right now.

DonGodJoe

Urzigurumash wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Heavy should hit for more than Medium, since it weighs more, if it's melee direct damage. Heavy's downside should be sustain and speed, not damage.

NO?

You are not supposed to look at this from medieval perspective times but from online mmo game where Tank is at first mainly
to survive damage taken not to do damage done as well, so his option with damage reduction is at place perfectly.

DonGodJoe

DonGodJoe wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Heavy should hit for more than Medium, since it weighs more, if it's melee direct damage. Heavy's downside should be sustain and speed, not damage.

NO?

You are not supposed to look at this from medieval perspective times but from online mmo game where Tank is at first mainly
to survive damage taken not to do damage done as well, so his option with damage reduction is at place perfectly.

EDIT: misscorrected quote

+
With -5% damage done per piece anyone who would actually want to do some normal decent damage in pvp with builds could freely use malacath in order to gain 25% damage increase (if they build 5/1/1 - 5/2) so they would remain tanky enough but with no further chance to do any massacre as light or medium.

PeterUnlustig

I think a 2% dmg reduction would be fair per armor piece. That wouldnt hurt pve tanks or heavy healers to much and allow medium tanks for damage and heavy tanks for pure tanking.
10% dmg reduction for 10% less damage taken is more then fair.

Lughlongarm

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

All you have to do is wear malacath and a few swift and well fitted pieces and you cancel most of the negatives of heavy, do almost as much damage as medium/light in pvp, and are extremely tanky. The drawbacks of heavy need to be significantly more pronounced so that if you really want to counter balance it you'd have to go all in on well fitted and swift. I'd suggest a straight -3% percent move speed per piece of heavy so that you actually feel noticeably slower when wearing lots of heavy and would need 3 swift to perfectly counter balance 7 heavy. Perhaps also increase the dodge roll penalty to -6% so that you need 1 well fitted to counter balance each piece of heavy. Balance this armor so that it actually has drawbacks in pvp.

Have you even tested PvP content on the PTS with other peeps beyond friends?

Please give and show detailed information in the extensive testing you did. I mean the PTS just started, so I am curious if your just making claims off of reading the forums or actual testing....

My 2 cents.

This is not a secret, most of the PTS, PvP testing, revolved around duels. Not a perfect method but good indicator for things to come.

As for the current version of PTS, the Heavy armor is king due to many different mechanics working in favor of the heavy armor strengths.

1)Patch increased the overall health of characters which being amplified by heavy armor.

2)Heavy armor penalties are not a big deal. Heavy Armor bonuses however, synergies well with the already existing heavy armor strengths.

3)Light /medium armor setups can no longer enjoy the 5/2 or the 5-1-1 without giving up a great power loss compared to old setups.

4)Many broken CP stars synergies well with heavy armor.

*Strategic Reserve-(up to 2,500 health recovery with 28% health recovery bonus from heavy armor passive).

*Juggernaut- 10% damage mitigation while immune to CC(doubling down on the new heavy armor bonus passive that gives up to 14% mitigation while immune to CC(24% total). Now combine this with CC immunity potion+ the Hardenet star(which increase CC immunity duration potion CD reduction glyph) And you can see the problem.

And this not even close to sum up the additional synergies that can be done with this suggested setup. So ya, immortal builds that barely sacrifices damage is more convenient then ever.

I actually like the idea by @YandereGirlfriend

To Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece and Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece(even 2%-3% will be enough). Also, replace the sprint movement speed reduction to pure Movement speed reduction and the damage mitigation bonus while CC immune should be 1% per piece(down from 2).

I would also twik Light Armor penalties and Replace the 1% physical Damage taken to extra 1% Crit damage taken. This will be less punishing in PVP and will not effect players in PVE which also seems like a bad idea, to give glass cannons 7% damage taken in PVE.

The other issues like the huge HP pools and the broken cp stars should be addressed directly and not be balanced via HA changes.

Chilly-McFreeze

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It's not my idea but in terms of Heavy Armor reforms:

Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece (for the sake of all of the PvE tanks out there);

Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece.

That the kind of mindless sledgehammer approach that plagued this game for years. Good job.

PeterUnlustig

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It's not my idea but in terms of Heavy Armor reforms:

Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece (for the sake of all of the PvE tanks out there);

Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece.

That the kind of mindless sledgehammer approach that plagued this game for years. Good job.

Yeah it needs to be 2% but the idea is right. If you want more damage slot less heavy armor. If you want more damage mitigation slot more heavy armor.
This is the way it should be. Rn its:
Slot heavy armor for sustain, healing and mitigation + deal the same damage as medium and light

dcmgti

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It's not my idea but in terms of Heavy Armor reforms:

Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece (for the sake of all of the PvE tanks out there);

Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece.

As someone who plays a lot of pvp but also tanks in pve end game content, I agree.

However I don't like the idea of increasing roll dodge cost even more. The amount of things that pve tanks have to roll dodge in vet trials and vet DLC dungeons is a lot. My roll dodge already cost 3500-4k(with a ton of points in Tumbling) depending on which tank I'm on.

A reduction in damage done seems like the most proper answer. End game pve tanks don't care about the damage they can do and this would curb the heavy armor usage in pvp. Especially if they changed Malacath to not affect proc sets.

OlumoGarbag

dcmgti wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It's not my idea but in terms of Heavy Armor reforms:

Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece (for the sake of all of the PvE tanks out there);

Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece.

As someone who plays a lot of pvp but also tanks in pve end game content, I agree.

However I don't like the idea of increasing roll dodge cost even more. The amount of things that pve tanks have to roll dodge in vet trials and vet DLC dungeons is a lot. My roll dodge already cost 3500-4k(with a ton of points in Tumbling) depending on which tank I'm on.

A reduction in damage done seems like the most proper answer. End game pve tanks don't care about the damage they can do and this would curb the heavy armor usage in pvp. Especially if they changed Malacath to not affect proc sets.

Also you shouldnt forget that even if heavy gets lower dmg % they can easily counter that by running stuff that has high damage % as well. Like a glpyh build where your glyhs deals 75% more damage with torugs and infused lower that by 10% for 5 pieces of heavy and you still have 65% increase of enchant damage. Or they could easily run Essence thieve which would completly mitigate that effect. Meanwhile light armor has nothing that comes anywhere close to those mitigation numbers.
Its just ridicoulus that they dont seems to waste any thought on balance and just throw in new ideas that will go live with a 99% certainty until they completly turn the other way around and overnerf/buff them

Urzigurumash

@DonGodJoe

Your quote formatting is still a little messed up there. Let's be clear I'm talking about live, not pts, but my general ideas should still be relevant. Of course nearly all of our old notions about armor balance are close to obsolete since they are getting rid of the 5 slot paradigm.

Plainly and flatly I entirely disagree with your statement about tanks. Heavy Armor shouldn't diminish the maximal output of damage within 1 bar of Mag or Stam - although it already does on live: Outside of damage procs, and even when using an Ultimate which doesn't receive additional strength from the Medium/Light Stam/Mag percentile buffs, it's impossible for a 5 Heavy Stam player to hit as hard as a 5 Medium Stam player, even in Mech Acuity, thanks to the lower Weapon Damage, and outside of some off meta usage of Onslaught, it's impossible for a 5 Heavy Mag player to hit as hard as a 5 Light Mag player, even in Mech Acuity, thanks to less Spell Pen. Right?

On live, disregarding some of these overtuned damage procs, there is no reasonable need for additional penalties to the maximal offensive output of 5 Heavy builds within 1 bar of stam/mag. Medium and Light don't have a lower ceiling on their maximal level of defense - Light has Damage Shields, Medium has Shuffle and cheaper Roll-Dodges, etc., while Heavy still has a lower ceiling of maximal offensive output even without additional penalties. This comparable level of defense on Medium and Light comes at a greater resource cost than it would on Heavy, and so should it be with Heavy and offense. The different armor weights ought to be able to achieve a comparable level of overall defense and overall offense, through different means and at different resource costs. This, to me, is the essence of the Thief - Warrior - Mage trinity, which I view as the fundamental trinity of both TES and Western RPGs - not Healer, DD, Tank. Light = magical adeptness, Medium = agility, Heavy = mass, with whatever penalties and benefits that might suggest.

All that being said I'm all for giving Light and Medium overall better passives for PvP since Heavy enjoys the lack of stat co-efficient scaling for Damage Procs and Siege - but this sort of reduction to damage within 1 bar of stam/mag, no matter the build or skill, is not a balanced solution. I'm also very much all for more sources of Oblivion damage, which I assume would bypass any of these new sources of mitigation? Sload's was beyond broken when it was released but that was a while ago, and you don't see many people running Knightslayer.

katorga

4)Many broken CP stars synergies well with heavy armor.

*Strategic Reserve-(up to 2,500 health recovery with 28% health recovery bonus from heavy armor passive).

*Juggernaut- 10% damage mitigation while immune to CC(doubling down on the new heavy armor bonus passive that gives up to 14% mitigation while immune to CC(24% total). Now combine this with CC immunity potion+ the Hardenet star(which increase CC immunity duration potion CD reduction glyph) And you can see the problem.

And this not even close to sum up the additional synergies that can be done with this suggested setup. So ya, immortal builds that barely sacrifices damage is more convenient then ever.

Darnit....that was my plan for my necro.

dcmgti

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

dcmgti wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It's not my idea but in terms of Heavy Armor reforms:

Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece (for the sake of all of the PvE tanks out there);

Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece.

As someone who plays a lot of pvp but also tanks in pve end game content, I agree.

However I don't like the idea of increasing roll dodge cost even more. The amount of things that pve tanks have to roll dodge in vet trials and vet DLC dungeons is a lot. My roll dodge already cost 3500-4k(with a ton of points in Tumbling) depending on which tank I'm on.

A reduction in damage done seems like the most proper answer. End game pve tanks don't care about the damage they can do and this would curb the heavy armor usage in pvp. Especially if they changed Malacath to not affect proc sets.

Also you shouldnt forget that even if heavy gets lower dmg % they can easily counter that by running stuff that has high damage % as well. Like a glpyh build where your glyhs deals 75% more damage with torugs and infused lower that by 10% for 5 pieces of heavy and you still have 65% increase of enchant damage. Or they could easily run Essence thieve which would completly mitigate that effect. Meanwhile light armor has nothing that comes anywhere close to those mitigation numbers.
Its just ridicoulus that they dont seems to waste any thought on balance and just throw in new ideas that will go live with a 99% certainty until they completly turn the other way around and overnerf/buff them

I agree that light armor isn't where it should be. In the official feedback thread I've mentioned that light armor should get some kind of adjustment to Harness/Dampen. Longer duration, maybe a slight buff as magsorc is the only class that has an effective class damage shield. Plus they have mobility which most mag classes don't have. I was looking forward to putting my pvp magplar back in light armor but I think that toon will just sit out for pvp next patch.

Essence Thief wouldn't be viable on a pve end game tank. I only know of a few niche builds running Torug's in pvp. You'll always have those few people with unique off meta builds. Why would I run Torug's when I can run Malacath and two high damage proc sets that scale with Malacath?

GrimTheReaper45

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It's not my idea but in terms of Heavy Armor reforms:

Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece (for the sake of all of the PvE tanks out there);

Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece.

That the kind of mindless sledgehammer approach that plagued this game for years. Good job.

I disagree. The problem with heavy is that its been giving players a much greater amount of tankiness than the other armors but only reducing there damage by a fraction of that amount. Its clear that heavy was designed to sacrifice damage for defense but that design doesnt hold up.

The buffs and penalties should be reflective of what they were designed to do. If anything what were seeing on pts is the random sladgehammer approach. However the suggested proposal makes much more since with existing game design.

It doesnt solve the greater problem that this trying to get us to pick armor weights with penalties in mind when the rest of the game doesnt allow for that.

It is penalty wise though consistent with game design.

Urzigurumash

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

The problem with heavy is that its been giving players a much greater amount of tankiness than the other armors but only reducing there damage by a fraction of that amount.

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

It is penalty wise though consistent with game design.

Do you think a penalty to Healing Received for Medium would've been a good approach to deal with the Roll Dodging and Rock Dancing Tower Troll meta before Greymoor, rather than the blanket 10%, now 5% nerf to Healing?