Heavy Armor Is Too Strong in PVP

Twohothardware

There should be at least a 3% penalty to damage done per piece of heavy armor worn or Malacath needs to be done away with.

You already have low critical chance wearing heavy armor so Malacath’s drawback of not being able to crit doesn’t balance it at all.

umagon

If Malacath’s band is the problem then it should be what is modified. With this update heavy armor already has enough down sides to it. Malacath’s band needs to be changed to where it allows for critical hits but the user takes 25% more damage from all sources while it is equipped. It’s a strait tradeoff for increased offense at the cost of defense.

Nerhesi

Urzigurumash wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It's not my idea but in terms of Heavy Armor reforms:

Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece (for the sake of all of the PvE tanks out there);

Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece.

Heavy should hit for more than Medium, since it weighs more, if it's melee direct damage. Heavy's downside should be sustain and speed, not damage.

Sure.

Then -10% to all recovery per piece of heavy.

Other people should help you sustain in heavy.

Nerhesi

katorga wrote: »

4)Many broken CP stars synergies well with heavy armor.

*Strategic Reserve-(up to 2,500 health recovery with 28% health recovery bonus from heavy armor passive).

*Juggernaut- 10% damage mitigation while immune to CC(doubling down on the new heavy armor bonus passive that gives up to 14% mitigation while immune to CC(24% total). Now combine this with CC immunity potion+ the Hardenet star(which increase CC immunity duration potion CD reduction glyph) And you can see the problem.

And this not even close to sum up the additional synergies that can be done with this suggested setup. So ya, immortal builds that barely sacrifices damage is more convenient then ever.

Darnit....that was my plan for my necro.

CC immunity potions need to go. Too many non-brainers that remove actual mechanics for this game.

You are already pretty much only CC'd for 1 seconds until you break it.. then you're immune for 7 seconds. Isnt CC immunty enough? We have to double down and make yo more tanky while you're CC immune AND make it easier for us to get more immunity via potions? Why?

It's like a self defeating mechanic.

Urzigurumash

Twohothardware wrote: »

Then -10% to all recovery per piece of heavy.

Other people should help you sustain in heavy.

Yes, -70% percent for all recoveries in 7 Heavy, and then adding back in the old Wrath passive, but at 20 stacks per piece of Heavy, rather than total.

GrimTheReaper45

Urzigurumash wrote: »

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

The problem with heavy is that its been giving players a much greater amount of tankiness than the other armors but only reducing there damage by a fraction of that amount.

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

It is penalty wise though consistent with game design.

Do you think a penalty to Healing Received for Medium would've been a good approach to deal with the Roll Dodging and Rock Dancing Tower Troll meta before Greymoor, rather than the blanket 10%, now 5% nerf to Healing?

Not really sure to be honest. I was on break from the game until about a month after greymoor dropped so I dont know the specifics.

Urzigurumash

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

Not really sure to be honest. I was on break from the game until about a month after greymoor dropped so I dont know the specifics.

At least as well as my weary Wood Orc brain can remember, I might be off on some details: it was the predictable result of the end of the brief DOT meta after Elsweyr - which was by many accounts a very well-balanced patch in PvE and PvP compared to prior patches, and which was by my memory the end of the dreadful PetSorc era of BGs. The patch after Elsweyr (dungeon DLC), both DOTs and HOTs were buffed, substantially, so much that Entropy was ruling BGs, and it was really quite painful overall, so in the Southern Elsweyr patch, DOTs were nerfed to their current levels, but HOTs were not nerfed. From this patch until Greymoor and the introduction of Malacath, by far and away the meta for Stam "1vX" was to stack weapon damage to the moons, drink Takeaway Broth, and just roll dodge around and heal until your Ult was ready. Still not a horrid strategy really, but it's not the best thing going.

Heavy Troll Tanks and Light Streak Sorcs abounded naturally as they always will, but it was this rolly polly dodge and heal style that left us stuck in combat for ages. Fights never really concluded because there was always a guerilla roll dodger or two prancing about the steps or spinning in circles at the top of towers. The cliffs near keeps were universally littered with ninjas rolling on the ground, acting like clowns. Combat is not all a warrior need train for, it turned out, as victory often depended on who could more artfully perform a sort of acrobatic display, and for longer. 1 hour? 2 hours? How long can you roll around on some rocks? Just how important is that keep?

Medium and its OP roll-dodge passive was the culprit - the additional Weapon Damage and Crit passives both buffing Vigor was the culprit. Medium builds simply had too much healing and mitigation capability without sacrificing enough offensive capability, and the only solution was to nerf Medium into the ground and ruin every decent Medium build out there. Medium is for doing damage, not for staying alive. Many of us suggested that for that each piece of Medium you put on, one more defensive skill would be greyed out on your skill menu. Others suggested that Medium have a built-in self-facing thorns passive, where your own damage would damage you too - because that's what Medium is for, doing damage, not preserving life.

Except not really. Medium itself wasn't the problem and nobody reasonable suggested it was. In fact it was popular here at the time to suggest that offensive power and healing power be decoupled, and healing skills which derived their value from offensive stats instead be scaled off of some new healing power stat. Contrast that with the discussions about HP-scaled healing today. It should be noted - the nearly universal meta for PvP at this time, as far as I knew, was Balorgh, front-barred 5 piece NMA, back-barred 2 piece Potentate's, and whatever other 5 piece worked best.

How did the devs appear to correct this? A blanket nerf to healing - whether or not this nerf might have had other imbalances in mind regarding ball groups and zergs. Nothing inequitably injurious to those medium builds, instead a nerf to healing for everybody. Some more minor and specific nerfs corrected this as well: Penetration was given to Balorgh. Prior to this I swear you got more HPS out of a 500 Balorgh-buffed Vigor than you did Trollking. Now you don't, you get Penetration instead. NMA lost roughly 1/6 of its 5 piece and Potentate's lost 2/5 of its 2 piece - Medium and Light builds lost much more with this latter change than Heavy, since that removed 2% on Potentate's was a greater share of overall mitigation. The nerf to NMA was regrettable and I think it's more than due to be undone in this current meta.

This particular infinite roll-dodging and healing issue in Cyrodiil appears to have been corrected, as far as I can tell, and no penalty to Medium's defensive passives was necessary. Not even Vigor or Rally were nerfed. Instead a global 5% healing nerf and a few particular item changes. Whatever imbalance might exist today, whatever the most obnoxious thing going in PvP is, there's probably a global fix or two. Heavy should not receive any additional penalty to non-sustained damage output that isn't suffered by Medium and Light until other options have been explored.

Anyhow I could be wrong about all of that.

Narvuntien

I think all proc sets should straight up only do the amount of damage they say they do with no way to increase their damage including buffs from you or others.

actosh

Malacath should prevent all crits, even heals.

BlazingDynamo

-3% per piece of heavy would make heavy in PvE completely unusable. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

katorga

Nerhesi wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

4)Many broken CP stars synergies well with heavy armor.

*Strategic Reserve-(up to 2,500 health recovery with 28% health recovery bonus from heavy armor passive).

*Juggernaut- 10% damage mitigation while immune to CC(doubling down on the new heavy armor bonus passive that gives up to 14% mitigation while immune to CC(24% total). Now combine this with CC immunity potion+ the Hardenet star(which increase CC immunity duration potion CD reduction glyph) And you can see the problem.

And this not even close to sum up the additional synergies that can be done with this suggested setup. So ya, immortal builds that barely sacrifices damage is more convenient then ever.

Darnit....that was my plan for my necro.

CC immunity potions need to go. Too many non-brainers that remove actual mechanics for this game.

You are already pretty much only CC'd for 1 seconds until you break it.. then you're immune for 7 seconds. Isnt CC immunty enough? We have to double down and make yo more tanky while you're CC immune AND make it easier for us to get more immunity via potions? Why?

It's like a self defeating mechanic.

Provided CC break actually works. So yeah, I'd rather run something else, but escapist poisons protect me from the server.

It doesn't matter how "skilled" you are if the server doesn't register your keystrokes, know where you or your target are, or is just laggy. You have to build for that now. Current server performance punishes stat builds based on active abilities and rewards health/proc builds.

sabresandiego_ESO

I don’t agree with gimping heavy armor damage, heavy armor should simply make you noticeably slower and less agile. Change the negligible sprint speed penalty to a strong movement speed penalty, and increase the dodge roll penalty as well. If you want to be tanky AND hit hard you should be slow and not maneuverable. Right now you can have it all with well designed heavy armor builds.

Twohothardware

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

-3% per piece of heavy would make heavy in PvE completely unusable. [snip]

In what way? Dps in PvE don’t run heavy armor beyond the one piece to get the Undaunted passive bonus.

Firstmep

Urzigurumash wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It's not my idea but in terms of Heavy Armor reforms:

Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece (for the sake of all of the PvE tanks out there);

Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece.

Heavy should hit for more than Medium, since it weighs more, if it's melee direct damage. Heavy's downside should be sustain and speed, not damage.

I'd prefer they hit sustain of heavy armor.
Its insane that you can sustain better in heavy than in light or medium(in pvp).
And that's one of the main pulls of heavy armor, being able to ignore recovery, and focus fully on defense and dmg, wheter it's procs or stats, the end result is the same.
Also light armors increased martial dmg taken penalty seems way too harsh.
I can imagine a scenario next patch where I would want to use light armor on Magicka, maybe in duels but that's it.
Looking at something like a magplar, I can now run around in mist with an additional 14% dmg redux most of the time, and extra 7% aganist martial attacks, if I want more dmg slap on 2 light for 1.8k free pen.
It's literally a no brainer. And with heavy armors passives it even makes sense, I benefit from constitution even in mist, sprint speed reduction is also irrelevant for mist form, it's just feels too strong really.

Urzigurumash

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

I don’t agree with gimping heavy armor damage, heavy armor should simply make you noticeably slower and less agile. Change the negligible sprint speed penalty to a strong movement speed penalty, and increase the dodge roll penalty as well. If you want to be tanky AND hit hard you should be slow and not maneuverable. Right now you can have it all with well designed heavy armor builds.

Again speaking of live and not PTS - I agree, however I still think Heavy should be able to achieve the same 200% movement cap as everybody else - just at the expense of more resources. That is currently the case but this difference could be accentuated. It would also be logical and probably helpful for the different armor weights to have a different dodge duration after roll-dodge, like the Crusader set (unless there is something like this in an unstated way or something I've missed). However in general I'll quote myself from another thread: Since we only have 3 choices of Armor, but hundreds of choices of sets, skills, foods, etc., if possible it would be preferable to address imbalances through means besides adjusting the armor passives themselves.

birdik

-2% damage and +2% resource cost for each piece of heavy, ez

Derra

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Malacath with heavy is just too strong.

it´s not malacath either - it´s also light and medium seeing a reduction in crit chance while heavy builds mixing in 1 or 2 pieces will actually increase theirs relatively due to the changes in specced passives.

Even a crit enabled build is better in heavy than it is in light or medium.

GrimTheReaper45

Derra wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Malacath with heavy is just too strong.

it´s not malacath either - it´s also light and medium seeing a reduction in crit chance while heavy builds mixing in 1 or 2 pieces will actually increase theirs relatively due to the changes in specced passives.

Even a crit enabled build is better in heavy than it is in light or medium.

Agreed, heavy has been an issue for a long time even without malacaths. Its just particularly bad with it. The damage buff you get from light and medium passives just dont come close to matching the resistance you gain from heavy.

Especially when you take into consideration that a lot of pvp mechanics diminish the value of damage. I might be able to spec more into damage and get a 5k higher tool tip but thats cut in half to a 2.5k difference with battle spirit. Crit resist is a thing in pvp could argue that make crit less valuable. Light armor has a pen buff to help get thru heavy but light has a lot less resist so heavy doesnt need to spec into as much pen to get thru all of light resistance.

relentless_turnip

I agree heavy feels very dominant on both the PTS and live.

I would suggest that damage is reduced on heavy or medium and light increased.
In keeping with aim of the armor changes perhaps a skill cost increase per heavy piece worn would be appropriate. This would be a less direct way of adjusting damage and makes sense that physically it requires more effort to do anything in heavy armor. It would also sense to do the opposite and increase the skill cost passive for light and medium.

ketsparrowhawk

I'm really curious to see how these new heavy bonuses play out.

Right now in BG's, the most effective support strategy is to spam AOE CC everywhere. My best support is a magCro that spams wall of frost (charged staff) and remote totem on top of everyone, plus Sellistrix providing extra CC. Basically every enemy in my vicinity gets CC'd on cooldown. Of course I'm not the only one. This is pretty typical of a BG environment these days.. constant AOE CC spam.

When this update goes live, that will probably be a much less desirable tactic, since I'll be doing my enemies a favor by giving them up to 14% dmg reduction.

I'm also thinking of a Templar using Toppling Charge. Typical combo is to tag enemy with POTL, charge in with Toppling, then ult/Jab. Now, if you deliver your combo that way, your heavy-armor enemies will take up to 14% less damage (in no cp) from the brunt of your combo. So if you want them to take as much damage as possible, it's probably not wise to charge in with Toppling as your opener.

Long-term, I think players are going to become much more judicious about when and how they use CC. A welcome change imo.

Has anyone tested if the bonus applies to soft CC immunity?

Edit: typed allies, meant enemies. Fixed.

relentless_turnip

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

I'm really curious to see how these new heavy bonuses play out.

Right now in BG's, the most effective support strategy is to spam AOE CC everywhere. My best support is a magCro that spams wall of frost (charged staff) and remote totem on top of everyone, plus Sellistrix providing extra CC. Basically every enemy in my vicinity gets CC'd on cooldown. Of course I'm not the only one. This is pretty typical of a BG environment these days.. constant AOE CC spam.

When this update goes live, that will probably be a much less desirable tactic, since I'll be doing my allies a favor by giving them up to 14% dmg reduction.

I'm also thinking of a Templar using Toppling Charge. Typical combo is to tag enemy with POTL, charge in with Toppling, then ult/Jab. Now, if you deliver your combo that way, your heavy-armor enemies will take up to 14% less damage (in no cp) from the brunt of your combo. So if you want them to take as much damage as possible, it's probably not wise to charge in with Toppling as your opener.

Long-term, I think players are going to become much more judicious about when and how they use CC. A welcome change imo.

Has anyone tested if the bonus applies to soft CC immunity?

Have I misunderstood the patch notes? The 15% damage mitigation is always there. It isn't proc'd as far as I'm aware. Which why I'm a bit confused by what you're saying here...

ketsparrowhawk

@relentless_turnip

Heavy Armor Bonuses
Reduces your damage taken while immune to crowd control by 2% per piece worn

Everyone gets the 15% base mitigation.. not just heavy armor wearers.

relentless_turnip

@ketsparrowhawk I know. It seemed you were suggesting you were proccing that mitigation. But you meant the heavy armor passive. Apologies, that's why you were saying 14% assuming your opponent is in 7 heavy👍

ketsparrowhawk

relentless_turnip wrote: »

@ketsparrowhawk I know. It seemed you were suggesting you were proccing that mitigation. But you meant the heavy armor passive. Apologies, that's why you were saying 14% assuming your opponent is in 7 heavy👍

Indeed!

Mayrael

Malacath shouldn't buff procs that's first thing and completely separate from heavy armor (though very often used by HA users). Next part is separating HA from new CPs as these are available for all players, not only HA users. Someone roll dodging will benefit passive health regen same or even more than HA user etc. etc. When you build your CP defensively you can use LA/MA to offset your offensive.

What should be looked at is HA compared to LA and MA on exactly same builds and their performance, all other theories build around specific setups are very one sided.


Edit for typos

loki504

There has always been a probleem with pvp.

So why not add a stat that reduces dmg taken from players by x amount. Put it on all items. let light have 7.5% medium 5% and heavy 2.5%(or someting in that line). this way ZoS can easly change the amount dmg people do against other Players while it has Zero effect on PVE. if you don't want a tanky meta increase the dmg against players. If you can realy do that with stats or CP/No CP will mess it up. Just add in 1 cp point(or add it in with a alrdy known taken CP star). So you can divide CP and No CP pvp.

Scardan

Lughlongarm wrote: »

To Remove the 1% Magickal Damage taken per piece and Replace it with -5% Damage Done per piece(even 2%-3% will be enough). Also, replace the sprint movement speed reduction to pure Movement speed reduction and the damage mitigation bonus while CC immune should be 1% per piece(down from 2).

Heavy Armor type exists as armor with highest protection value. I can get that increased magic damage, because I can imagine how a fireball burns through metal, but increasing all damage on heavy armor is like drinking vodka to get sober. This type of armor is existing to save you from damage, not increasing it, your suggestion contradicts the idea of armor itself. Higher sustain cost would be more logical.

karekiz

Twohothardware wrote: »

BlazingDynamo wrote: »

-3% per piece of heavy would make heavy in PvE completely unusable. [snip]

In what way? Dps in PvE don’t run heavy armor beyond the one piece to get the Undaunted passive bonus.

Medusa - And having one piece just -3% dmg for literally no reason would be silly.

How about this:
Battle Spirit - For each piece of Heavy you deal X% less dmg.

Holy ***.

kalunte

please, consider droping malacath out of your mind when talking about heavy armor if you want to look like someone serious.

heavy armor pvp issues have been there for ages before malacath.

Starlight_Whisper

Most definitely like you just can't survive without heavy.