New CP system is horrible and might kill the game

Ragnaroek93

First of all, I think a lot of people aren't fully understanding on how this system exactly works: There are three "paths" instead of 9 which we currently have (blue, red, green) and all of them consist of two different types of stars. Ones which you can spend points on and when you need to slot them (similar to a talent tree from WoW) in order to be active and this is limited to 4 stars per path, so you need to make choices there. The other stars you can also spend points on but they work as a passive and don't need to be slotted in order to give you a bonus. So these stars aren't really a choice, you want as much of them as possible.

While this sounds interesting on paper the implementation is horrible. I've taken a look over the "passive stars" (the ones which you don't need to slot in order to work) and the powercurve is way too deep and too high. Here's the stats which you get from the CP (I've only taken combat relevant stats and ignored roleplay stuff and might very well missed something, but this should give a pretty accurate look of how the new system will look like):

blue cp:
50: 800 crit
50: 1750 pen
100: 150% status effect chance
30: 100 weapondmg
30: 100 spelldmg
50: 1300 stamina
50: 5% more incoming healing
50: 10% crit res
50: 5% physical def
50: 5% magica def
50: 15% less dmg taken from npcs
50: 1300 max magicka
50: 5% more healing
50: 10% more aoe healing
50: 10% more hot healing
50: 10% more single target healing

red cp:
50: 500 cost reduction for break free
60: 480 cost reduction for roll dodge
50: 25% less duration on status effects
50: 1400 hp
30: increase detection radius by 3m
250: when revived you have have 50% more ressources
33: 30% faster revive speed
40: 10% more sprint speed
50: 100 block cost reduction
60: 180 cost reduction for bashes
100: 600 more dmg on bashes
100: 20% more block cost reduction
50: 100 cost reduction on sprinting

green cp:
irrelevant for combat

Take in account that you also need 4x50 CP for each path for the slottable stars, so your passive progression begins at 600 CP. Also take into consideration that you can't spend your points freely, you have to spend 1/3 of your points into the green path which doesn't give combat relevant stats.

First problem is that the perks are way too strong, the goal was to reduce the powergap between new and veteran players and this does the opposite.
Second problem is that there is no more diminishing returns on perks, this means that every point which you spend is equal to the others (spending 50 points in one perk gives you 5x the amount of stats which you get from spending 10 points into the perk).
Third problem is that (on PTS) it would take me 670.000 xp to get one more champion point (810 -> 811).
Fourth problem is that there's no meaningful catch up mechanic, in fact the enlighten mechanic (increases xp earned by 400% for the next 400k experience, gained once per day works against a catch up mechanic and makes the whole process heavily timegated).
Last problem is how you gain xp: The most effective way to farm CP will probably be to run in circles and grind zombies because PvP, dungeons and trials don't reward good amounts of xp. Is this what you want? Zombie grind is the new endgame? Cmon man...

Can't wait to see "Lf dd vet ss 2700cp".

Ergele

I am pretty sure they will adress the experience issue.

preevious

huh .. I don't have enough space to install the PTS, but if I read what you wrote correctly, there's a passive increasing weapon damage, but no passive increasing spell damage?

That's weird ..

Mindcr0w

Ugh. Once again any major change implemented into any MMO since the dawn of the genre will potentially "kill the game" according to some players.

Haven't we all danced this dance too many times already? The changes might be good, they might be bad, but they ultimately amount to some stat rearrangements, and are nowhere near significant enough to kill one of the biggest MMO's on the market.

Chill people. The sky isn't falling because some percentages are changing in your character sheet.

Ragnaroek93

preevious wrote: »

huh .. I don't have enough space to install the PTS, but if I read what you wrote correctly, there's a passive increasing weapon damage, but no passive increasing spell damage?

That's weird ..

Forgot that, there's a passive that increases spell dmg as, sorry.

preevious

Thanks for the clarification

AinSoph

This is the first PTS week fam, give it some time.

Lughlongarm

1)One of the big issues in the blue tree are the extra purple star constellations which are completely passive and doesn't require a bar slot.

If the idea was to create an horizontal progression rather than a vertical one, with the idea to add more and more purple star constellations, these star constellations must be tied to the slot bar system.

2)Over all system is not yet balanced, but this is not a surprise.

3)Not sure about the main 3 constellations split which are not even in star count and effectiveness. The system forces you to spend your cp point evenly between the main 3 colors(and also the bar slot stars) . I rather they just do a better split between the stars and just open the system to put cp points on any color you want.(Like if you want you can put all stars on the blue color and to use only blue stars on your slot bar).

nqvarihs

AinSoph wrote: »

This is the first PTS week fam, give it some time.

yeah because we all know how zenimax always listens to our feedback and reacts accordingly to ensure a good gameplay experience for the next 3 months, instead of say, some really, really stupid nerf or buff on week 3 that they revert on week 5 to pretend they visit this part of the forum while letting the rest go live as is.

Ragnaroek93

Mindcr0w wrote: »

Ugh. Once again any major change implemented into any MMO since the dawn of the genre will potentially "kill the game" according to some players.

Haven't we all danced this dance too many times already? The changes might be good, they might be bad, but they ultimately amount to some stat rearrangements, and are nowhere near significant enough to kill one of the biggest MMO's on the market.

Chill people. The sky isn't falling because some percentages are changing in your character sheet.

Nope, not to me but this is different. Changing the game to a vertical progression powerhouse will make it lose it's biggest advantage over it's strongest competition. If I want vertical progression I'd play WoW and not a WoW clone.

Edit: Also we had the exact same situation when CP system got released. There wasn't a cap when they released it and diminishing returns were much weaker and it didn't work out, people were quitting in masses and we (thankfully) got a cap. Why should it be different this time?

Lephrel

I will not grind cp ever again, I'd rather quit. The utter disrespect with which ZOS is treating veteran players has always been baffling. But changing maxlevel so vets who have been playing the game for 4-5yrs are barely one third of the way there, is a new low for them. Do they honestly expect the entire community to happily participate in yet another soul sucking grind for the next year, until they push out some actual content?

Kurat

Everyone talks about the cp and passives and grinding but have you actually done any content on pts or dummy parsing. Im not worried about grinding more cp, if it only mattered. There are some passive stars but most need to be slotted. And you can only slot 4 in each tree. Blue the combat one is the one that affects the dps. So if you are cp810 now, you can get all 4 slots filled already and some passives. And the worst part is that dps got nerfed to oblivion. So if u have 800cp or 3600cp it makes little difference because you can still only slot 4 things. The passives that dont need to be slotted dont matter much.
I lost about 40% of dps with this bs and some reporting even 50%.

LordKelsier

Mindcr0w wrote: »

Ugh. Once again any major change implemented into any MMO since the dawn of the genre will potentially "kill the game" according to some players.

Haven't we all danced this dance too many times already? The changes might be good, they might be bad, but they ultimately amount to some stat rearrangements, and are nowhere near significant enough to kill one of the biggest MMO's on the market.

Chill people. The sky isn't falling because some percentages are changing in your character sheet.

I disagree.

Losing 67k DPS (dropped from 102k parse on trial dummy to 35k) is a massive change (same gear, same setup, new cp all assinged to damage buffs). I was doing trifecta stuff and after this patch I will not even be able to complete vet dungeons. I just got demoted from an endgame player to a beginner after having played since beta.

All this game will have to offer me after this patch is playing normal dungeons and trials and having to grind at least 900 additional CP (so like another 1 or 2 years of playing) so I reach ~1800 and get about the same numbers as I am getting on live right now.

Ragnaroek93

Kurat wrote: »

Everyone talks about the cp and passives and grinding but have you actually done any content on pts or dummy parsing. Im not worried about grinding more cp, if it only mattered. There are some passive stars but most need to be slotted. And you can only slot 4 in each tree. Blue the combat one is the one that affects the dps. So if you are cp810 now, you can get all 4 slots filled already and some passives. And the worst part is that dps got nerfed to oblivion. So if u have 800cp or 3600cp it makes little difference because you can still only slot 4 things. The passives that dont need to be slotted dont matter much.
I lost about 40% of dps with this bs and some reporting even 50%.

There are stars which need to be slotted to be active and there are some which don't. I listed the ones above which do not need to be slotted in order to work.

efster

I just tried it out and the way it's currently implemented is genuinely awful. I liked the idea of it on screen but the fact that I HAVE TO spend a bunch of points on stuff i do not need in order to get to the stuff I do is a complete step backwards.

I am not a fan of the current CP system and I really do like a lot of the new passives and the choices they unlock, but for Yffre's sake, ZOS, do not FORCE me to make choices you think I should make. I should not need to invest 50+ points in unrelated stars before I can even touch, say, the Treasure Hunter passive, let alone Hardy and Elemental which are actually relevant to my raid role. All the stars should be unlocked a priori so people can spend points in any star at will.

This is not horizonal progression. it's a transparent ploy to force people to log in and grind cp just so they can optimise their builds.

hafgood

The patch has been out one day and all the doom and gloom merchants are forecasting the end of the game.

I've not tried it yet, I don't have access to the pts being a console player but I'll read the notes. However, we know the values will change between now and go live. We know they will look at xp progression, I am CP 1240, I find it refreshing that I am no longer max CP.

There will be a lot of viable builds out there and I thank you all for the testing you are doing.

But please remember one thing. Just because your first try with the new CP isn't giving the same damage as you used to get there are other options you can try. This will take some time to test and work out the optimum settings.

Oh and end game? When vMOL came out 25k dps (3 million dummy) was enough to complete it. All it means is you have to learn to play the game as it was intended rather than cheese it

Thevampirenight

Its not going to kill the game.

Kurat

hafgood wrote: »

The patch has been out one day and all the doom and gloom merchants are forecasting the end of the game.

I've not tried it yet, I don't have access to the pts being a console player but I'll read the notes. However, we know the values will change between now and go live. We know they will look at xp progression, I am CP 1240, I find it refreshing that I am no longer max CP.

There will be a lot of viable builds out there and I thank you all for the testing you are doing.

But please remember one thing. Just because your first try with the new CP isn't giving the same damage as you used to get there are other options you can try. This will take some time to test and work out the optimum settings.

Oh and end game? When vMOL came out 25k dps (3 million dummy) was enough to complete it. All it means is you have to learn to play the game as it was intended rather than cheese it

You compare vMoL with vCR or vSS hm? lol
Sure we can do vMoL but try some newer dlc HMs if you can only hit 25k
Also they not only nerfed dps, they shafted tanks too.

Firstmep

hafgood wrote: »

The patch has been out one day and all the doom and gloom merchants are forecasting the end of the game.

I've not tried it yet, I don't have access to the pts being a console player but I'll read the notes. However, we know the values will change between now and go live. We know they will look at xp progression, I am CP 1240, I find it refreshing that I am no longer max CP.

There will be a lot of viable builds out there and I thank you all for the testing you are doing.

But please remember one thing. Just because your first try with the new CP isn't giving the same damage as you used to get there are other options you can try. This will take some time to test and work out the optimum settings.

Oh and end game? When vMOL came out 25k dps (3 million dummy) was enough to complete it. All it means is you have to learn to play the game as it was intended rather than cheese it

I do think some endgame encounters will have to be adjusted if the drop in dmg is that severe.
Vmol is a pretty old piece of content and most of the newer trials especially on hm weren't designed with 25k dps in mind.
Also going from 1.2k(which is what I have) to 2.7k to obtain all passives is a massive undertaking.
I hoped we would have more slottables to choose from and less always actives passives.
The way Brian worded his explanation wa that after a while we wouldn't gain any more power but simply could spend more points towards having more choices.
2.7k is on the latter end of the cp progression, and I think it's a bit much, and as the OP stated going from 810 to 11 is 670k exp, that's lot, even when grinding, which something ZOS came out multiple times saying they don't want to force ppl to do.
I think giving us more slots and moving more passives to slottables would be a solid compromise to avoid forcing ppl to grind, without massively changing up the existing framework of the new cp system.

AinSoph

I think people need to stop making assumptions based on the actual first day of PTS, which by the way stands for Public TEST Server. It's possible that CP stars are not in effect or the Trial Atro doesn't have all its debuffs working but yet people are already claiming the game has ceased to exist.

Hesperax79

No is not going to kill the game. Just push to a wrong way.
Horizontal CP was a very good idea.
Put passive perk on the system was a bad idea.

JinMori

I'm not looking forward to pretty much anything from this patch. So far the patch notes are a disaster to me. Just eff this game at this point, i was not playing already anyway.

Horizontal over vertical progression, please, spare me the bs, you just want to find the easiest solution to a problem, but never putting actualy work into it to find the better solution instead of the mediocre one.

Perks too strong? Please, everything you listed is pretty weaksauce, 100 spell damage for 30 or 50 points, oh wow, so strong!

They are using the horizonal progression thing as an excuse to not do the job properly, i don't even think horizontal progression should be the major point of cp anyway, horizontal is the job for new skills, new armor sets etc, cp should be the mostly vertical progression system.

This is revolting, i am disgusted at how zos is approaching this.

Lephrel

AinSoph wrote: »

I think people need to stop making assumptions based on the actual first day of PTS, which by the way stands for Public TEST Server. It's possible that CP stars are not in effect or the Trial Atro doesn't have all its debuffs working but yet people are already claiming the game has ceased to exist.

ZOS has a habit of ignoring PTS feedback. Most of the proposed changes from the pts make it to live, especially if they're bad ideas.

Gulnagel

AinSoph wrote: »

I think people need to stop making assumptions based on the actual first day of PTS, which by the way stands for Public TEST Server. It's possible that CP stars are not in effect or the Trial Atro doesn't have all its debuffs working but yet people are already claiming the game has ceased to exist.

Well can you blame them? Iv'e been playing for 6 years and this game does not evolve it devolves, as soon as something actually feels good they call in Thor so he can swing his nerf hammer.
To much changes in a game thats been out for so long. This is not the mmo i signed up for. But it will be the one I sign off from if this goes live.

AinSoph

Lephrel wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

I think people need to stop making assumptions based on the actual first day of PTS, which by the way stands for Public TEST Server. It's possible that CP stars are not in effect or the Trial Atro doesn't have all its debuffs working but yet people are already claiming the game has ceased to exist.

ZOS has a habit of ignoring PTS feedback. Most of the proposed changes from the pts make it to live, especially if they're bad ideas.

Probably, but at the same time this was in development for 2 years whereas most of the gear/passive changes were considered in a matter of months and if they cant accept even some small feedback about this huge and definitely flawed system and they are concrete about this decision, it will genuinely prove their arrogance. It'll definitely be hard to ignore player feedback on something this major but who knows? Maybe their hubris truly knows no bounds.

Ragnaroek93

JinMori wrote: »

Perks too strong? Please, everything you listed is pretty weaksauce, 100 spell damage for 30 or 50 points, oh wow, so strong!

It adds up.

Luke_Flamesword

Don't panic - do you really think that ZOS will be selling DLC dungeons that almost no one can complete on vet? Things will be adjusted sooner or later and remember that's not normal nerf when they changed skills or gear. Then some players get nerfed, some buffed so it was not fair for everyone. Now we have system when if there is a nerf, we all are nerfed almost the same. New experience curve will make 1200 CP more aproachabble and higher levels, well - how many players do you know with 2000+ CP?

Can't wait to see "Lf dd vet ss 2700cp".

Good luck with completing a team then Maybe 2700 CP will be more powerful than 810 CP, but most players will around 1000 CP, not 2000 so anyway teams will be often much low levels.

It's complete overhaul, so it's normal that it will take some time to tweak some values and to work with balance. I can see that as some investment and it's worth it, because old system was dead end and they have to made something completely new. But of course you all want so many changes, but without changing really anything beacuse you are attached to your DPS numbers, your level cap, etc. You want to play a game, but without achieveing more. This is MMO, they need to change things like this and this is normal that your achieved maximum power won't be maximum forever. For me, this is good, but I really like some challenge and feeling that leveling gives me something once more. Oh, and I'm only 993 CP right now, so I also have a lot to loose right now.

JinMori

AinSoph wrote: »

Lephrel wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

I think people need to stop making assumptions based on the actual first day of PTS, which by the way stands for Public TEST Server. It's possible that CP stars are not in effect or the Trial Atro doesn't have all its debuffs working but yet people are already claiming the game has ceased to exist.

ZOS has a habit of ignoring PTS feedback. Most of the proposed changes from the pts make it to live, especially if they're bad ideas.

Probably, but at the same time this was in development for 2 years whereas most of the gear/passive changes were considered in a matter of months and if they cant accept even some small feedback about this huge and definitely flawed system and they are concrete about this decision, it will genuinely prove their arrogance. It'll definitely be hard to ignore player feedback on something this major but who knows? Maybe their hubris truly knows no bounds.

If this is all they can do after 2 years, oh boy.

Xuhora

Kurat wrote: »

Everyone talks about the cp and passives and grinding but have you actually done any content on pts or dummy parsing. Im not worried about grinding more cp, if it only mattered. There are some passive stars but most need to be slotted. And you can only slot 4 in each tree. Blue the combat one is the one that affects the dps. So if you are cp810 now, you can get all 4 slots filled already and some passives. And the worst part is that dps got nerfed to oblivion. So if u have 800cp or 3600cp it makes little difference because you can still only slot 4 things. The passives that dont need to be slotted dont matter much.
I lost about 40% of dps with this bs and some reporting even 50%.

did you check all the debuffs on the 21 mio dummy? i've read a comment somewhere that people reporting missing debuffs on the dummy, that would explain the massive dps loss.
you made your comment on two different threads by now, so i would advice you to doublecheck...

AinSoph

JinMori wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

Lephrel wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

I think people need to stop making assumptions based on the actual first day of PTS, which by the way stands for Public TEST Server. It's possible that CP stars are not in effect or the Trial Atro doesn't have all its debuffs working but yet people are already claiming the game has ceased to exist.

ZOS has a habit of ignoring PTS feedback. Most of the proposed changes from the pts make it to live, especially if they're bad ideas.

Probably, but at the same time this was in development for 2 years whereas most of the gear/passive changes were considered in a matter of months and if they cant accept even some small feedback about this huge and definitely flawed system and they are concrete about this decision, it will genuinely prove their arrogance. It'll definitely be hard to ignore player feedback on something this major but who knows? Maybe their hubris truly knows no bounds.

If this is all they can do after 2 years, oh boy.

The framework is at least semi-decent but the location of some passives and the numbers of damage/defense passives is rather bad. Even crafters don't like the green tree pathing and that says a lot.

Ragnaroek93

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Don't panic - do you really think that ZOS will be selling DLC dungeons that almost no one can complete on vet? Things will be adjusted sooner or later and remember that's not normal nerf when they changed skills or gear. Then some players get nerfed, some buffed so it was not fair for everyone. Now we have system when if there is a nerf, we all are nerfed almost the same. New experience curve will make 1200 CP more aproachabble and higher levels, well - how many players do you know with 2000+ CP?

Can't wait to see "Lf dd vet ss 2700cp".

Good luck with completing a team then Maybe 2700 CP will be more powerful than 810 CP, but most players will around 1000 CP, not 2000 so anyway teams will be often much low levels.

It's complete overhaul, so it's normal that it will take some time to tweak some values and to work with balance. I can see that as some investment and it's worth it, because old system was dead end and they have to made something completely new. But of course you all want so many changes, but without changing really anything beacuse you are attached to your DPS numbers, your level cap, etc. You want to play a game, but without achieveing more. This is MMO, they need to change things like this and this is normal that your achieved maximum power won't be maximum forever. For me, this is good, but I really like some challenge and feeling that leveling gives me something once more. Oh, and I'm only 993 CP right now, so I also have a lot to loose right now.

If the new system means that the new endgame is zombie grind then I'd rather have a system which is dead end tbh.