Elitists "META" Plague

NEMESIS_97

AyaDark wrote: »

NEMESIS_97 wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

resdayn00 wrote: »

Give a beginner a sharp sword and he will cut himself with it. It's not the blacksmith's fault for making a sharp sword, it's the beginner's fault for not practicing with a wooden sword first.

Replace sharp sword with endgame meta build, blacksmith with theorycrafter, wooden sword with beginner friendly build.

So all they do is give sharp blades of bad quality to beginners.

Because not beginners do not buy there stuff, they use guns.

It is not there fault or beginners.

We get what we get, i just show the situation.

so we are still with topic of content creators yes?
so they create videos, builds mainly for endgame...mostly they have in descrpition for what lvl it is and they cant know what people will watch them and then copy
they can guess just anybody can look at this but they aren't aware, when and who will actually copy them in 100%

this is not their fault someone without exp will look at their build and 100% copy paste it without experience

as you say this is not beginners fault because they took to sharp sword for start

same it is not content creators fault because theyr dont control who actually will take this sharp blade

I will add to it this is more of these beginners thing, fault or not or just unawarness of their inexperience because (theoretically) beginners should know theyr are not that eexp for endgame so they should be aware they need more practise, get more experience before touching very sharp sword

thats just thing there is no overall/general/total (or how else name it) mentor for everyone, just nobody is monitored by mentor/teacher/parent who will take care of him and stop from things for which he is not ready yet so people should have self awarness, self-restraint from to hard/to complicated things if they are still beginners without much exp, this is on them without control of anyone if they will took wooden sword for start of practise or instantly sharp sword and then be suprised they maked bad move and lost hand because they didnt know anything how they shold have used it and they didn't have anyone to control them to not touch it yet, they are on their self

I can not say for your country, but you can not buy weapon in our country. For this you need paper from doctor and paper that you know how to use it.

Even i just do not people some build i tell him how and where it have to work.

Now situation looks for me like:
Some player is dead and he say it is my fault that i am alive and do not play META.

They think that other players MUST do some thing for them.

No they must not.

If you want as example tank support you - HEAL tank.

If you do less damage do mechaniks ! Or why are some DD so proud there DPS when just stand and hit dummy like ?

Did you run portal ? No
Did you kill ads m ? No
Did you buff group ? No
What did you do ? Stand in AOE and DPS boss.

With 2 sets from supports just for him, other good DD can get better numbers, who did the work !

"Other MUST give me sustain"

They must not - even without people like this - pass is even simpker by 11 people run than 11+ 1 meta like this.

Eso's group dynamics are determined by the players, healers run sets that support the group Beacuse for most people a zouple of heal over times are already more than enough to stay alive.
Tanks run support sets, Beacuse you can acquire the required "tankiness", without running selfish or defensive sets.

If you need to run a selfish build, that's your problem, if your group is fine with it no problem.
But don't blame others if they have certain expectations from you that you can't/won't meet.

You write about tankeness, do you play tank ? Tank was my main.
Becouse of peoples not clever actions i decided that it is more simple to play DD.

But i really like tanks, so i always will wish best for them.

You can tank on DD by the way, i can do it, in meta with 1 minute boss kill DD can do it.

Will you try if community decide you should do it and have enough tankeness ?

It must be healthy logick, not community decided. 2% of this community really pass, but 98% of others always decided.

I play all roles..have 3 tanks..2 healers and 12 dps...so your question?about easy play...mastering dps rotation,la wieving and pulling high dps on whole encounter is way harder..from my personal exp..when you learn all roles its goes dd easiest then healer and last tank..when you got familiar with them then situation changes..dps becomes harder then tanking and last healing...when you learn boss/ads mehs and what to do with tank its becomes easy..but sustain high dps in intense battle doing mehs and avoiding dangers with perfect rotation for long duration becomes way harder..

You can have 12 tanks but play all 12 bad, and ?

You have all 3 roll only shows that you play 1 of them 3 times less, what roll is it ?

I can not say anything more when i do not see your current game.

But in my own expirience, people who try to show that they are cool and are really bad always say something like this.

And i have Tank, DD and i can heal. I am really bad healer you know ?

But I only see 8 healers better then my DD healer for 3 years in thus game.

One of them was 500 +- CP.

If other healers are that bad and best group will have one if this good, how bad healing do I get on tank in not top party ? Do not even want to think about it. When in some raid 2 DD and tank have 50% hps.

Some HOF run HM we go to help.

May be healer there had 12 heals each, but why i need to heal on DD to PASS ?

Or all here are top partys with 20 k HPs on heals and 1 kk dps ?

I can not believe it

Always can show my tanking when will get spare time to waste...sure now tanking way less then dpsing and even way less healing..btw most of your text is hard to understand...but ofc inv me will find way to show you how you can tank..survive and live fine with not selfish sets

AyaDark

iksde wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

resdayn00 wrote: »

Give a beginner a sharp sword and he will cut himself with it. It's not the blacksmith's fault for making a sharp sword, it's the beginner's fault for not practicing with a wooden sword first.

Replace sharp sword with endgame meta build, blacksmith with theorycrafter, wooden sword with beginner friendly build.

So all they do is give sharp blades of bad quality to beginners.

Because not beginners do not buy there stuff, they use guns.

It is not there fault or beginners.

We get what we get, i just show the situation.

so we are still with topic of content creators yes?
so they create videos, builds mainly for endgame...mostly they have in descrpition for what lvl it is and they cant know what people will watch them and then copy
they can guess just anybody can look at this but they aren't aware, when and who will actually copy them in 100%

this is not their fault someone without exp will look at their build and 100% copy paste it without experience

as you say this is not beginners fault because they took to sharp sword for start

same it is not content creators fault because theyr dont control who actually will take this sharp blade

I will add to it this is more of these beginners thing, fault or not or just unawarness of their inexperience because (theoretically) beginners should know theyr are not that eexp for endgame so they should be aware they need more practise, get more experience before touching very sharp sword

thats just thing there is no overall/general/total (or how else name it) mentor for everyone, just nobody is monitored by mentor/teacher/parent who will take care of him and stop from things for which he is not ready yet so people should have self awarness, self-restraint from to hard/to complicated things if they are still beginners without much exp, this is on them without control of anyone if they will took wooden sword for start of practise or instantly sharp sword and then be suprised they maked bad move and lost hand because they didnt know anything how they shold have used it and they didn't have anyone to control them to not touch it yet, they are on their self

I can not say for your country, but you can not buy weapon in our country. For this you need paper from doctor and paper that you know how to use it.

Even i just do not people some build i tell him how and where it have to work.

Now situation looks for me like:
Some player is dead and he say it is my fault that i am alive and do not play META.

They think that other players MUST do some thing for them.

No they must not.

If you want as example tank support you - HEAL tank.

If you do less damage do mechaniks ! Or why are some DD so proud there DPS when just stand and hit dummy like ?

Did you run portal ? No
Did you kill ads m ? No
Did you buff group ? No
What did you do ? Stand in AOE and DPS boss.

With 2 sets from supports just for him, other good DD can get better numbers, who did the work !

"Other MUST give me sustain"

They must not - even without people like this - pass is even simpker by 11 people run than 11+ 1 meta like this.

and here in game you dont need any papers to get the best set, all you need is willings to farm it and for some sets also group to run this content
and even if you have papes to buy weapon...it doesnt matter how good, expensive weapon you will buy with great accuracty, if you didn't learn before how to aim, shoot no any great weapon will make you great and accuracy shooting, you will be still missing if you dont practise


I cant understand last your sentence....but if we are in trial group healers talk about what they will use and thye will use support sets for most of the group like...why to use support set for single or 2 players in group instead of for 6?

or if they have split group in half for 4 stamina and 4 magica dps...they will still use support for magica dps because magica need more support t work than stamina and still stamina is getting some from somme supports which we have avaible to support magica/overall dps

If it is hard understand me, sorry i try say with example:

We have 8 dds, they all are LA players.
It is promoted game play.

If i am HA user, i can have the same 50 k DPS on 3 kk dummy as they do. I use 1 party buff set on DD.

On 21 kk dummy i have less values, because DD use sustain food and Atro gives sustain i do not need.

So i have 65-70 k dps on it. In raid LA player needs 2 sets for sustain to do the same, as this food gives him on atro.

With other sets, i can get 10% more, like 77k dps , he get the same, but i use 1buff set. So DD like this is better than 80 k dps dummy guy.

It is not standart builds, so 15-20% of players run builds like this, other 80% use "META".

Custome self sustain builds do not need resources, we can run both mana/stamina raids. But we need different sets.

LA user with no mana can not DPS, so we always get 2 sets we do not need and our damage are less (trully i have 12-13%always), but i can have more. It is much simpler to play, becouse you always have resources, you can even support group and heal if you need if healer get disconnect for short duration.

With LA trend promotion builds like this will not show full potencial, but even so they are good.

Becouse people say like "they MUST", no it do not work like that

We have our own + and - with builds like this. And may be top score party can do more dps in solo target, but we can do something else better : better survive, support, susain, aoe and etc.

People just do not understand it yet.

This patch i put custome build on my girl templat, she was meta LA DD with 50+ on 3 kk.

Templars have bad sustain. Now she has the same 50+ with infinit mana. + It is unkillable build.

What is the point people play old meta that is bad for 90% of them ?

Not all of them have more than 75k dps on 21kk dummy.

In this situation other sets, combinations and game play is better.

People do not even start thinking !

"My my, new META build for 100500 dps"
You only can do 70 k with it what is a point for you other man can do 100500 with it ?
It is harder for you, try something better for you.

"No - META - some other guy play better with it, so i just copy it and will play worse than i can in different sets and style"

Ok, play like you want.

"And you must do the same, play meta with worse numbers for you !"

What ???

"It is META all must play like this !"

Is it a joke ?

Reverb

It took me three pages to get the the heart of OPs issue. They are a tank, and they want to run vet end game content without being told what sets to wear, by groups who want to be as optimized as possible.


To that end, yes it’s annoying when an inexperienced raid leader thinks there’s one tank set that works for all vet content because they read it somewhere. There are different tanking setups needed for different types of fights.

But OP is also wrong for stubbornly insisting they wear what works best for them, rather than what works best for the group. Tanks and healers are support roles, not selfish ones.

sarahthes

Reverb wrote: »

It took me three pages to get the the heart of OPs issue. They are a tank, and they want to run vet end game content without being told what sets to wear, by groups who want to be as optimized as possible.


To that end, yes it’s annoying when an inexperienced raid leader thinks there’s one tank set that works for all vet content because they read it somewhere. There are different tanking setups needed for different types of fights.

But OP is also wrong for stubbornly insisting they wear what works best for them, rather than what works best for the group. Tanks and healers are support roles, not selfish ones.

The solution for them is simple if this is the case. They should start their own guild and raid team.

I do have to throw a thought out there. People like to say that Alcast's builds are for endgame and new players shouldn't jump to them. I'm gonna take the opposite approach and say that Alcast's builds are for beginners. There's nothing wrong with them from that standpoint, but an actual endgame player isn't gonna be using an Alcast 'setup 1' build...

frozzzen101

Not even God can save idiots from their own stupidity.
Nor can theorycrafter save people from themselves.
Nor it is their responsibility.

There is so much bs in this thread by OP that it's amazing. Since you are so heavily focusing on mandated sets for tanks... I've been raiding from Craglorn all the way to DLC trials trifectas and score pushing and never ever at any point have I seen people crying about tank sets. Even to really good players you can come and say "hey I haven't done this content in ages, I'll slap on one selfish set until I remember the fight better, when do I get highest amount of burst so I can prepare for it better, when I can safely do couple heavy attacks to restore stamina etc". As long as you are interacting with sensible people it's never a problem and as a tank you still want to outgrow selfish sets asap to give your group as much boost as possible.
Yes, there are sets that support roles have to run, but I haven't seen raid leader that would deny you option of using a selfish set for certain parts of progression when you are learning the fights and your goal is primarily to keep taunt and stay alive with debuffs being secondary for the time being.
Sans few examples I think raidleads like that are just Boogeyman for casuals with which they are scaring themselves and other casuals and has absolutely no grounds in reality.

And as for content creators, they are doing amazing job. The amount of stuff I learned and improvements I had on my dps characters I can directly credit to those content creators, the way they set up their videos and the small amount of effort I've put in parsing. It's amazing how much those vids can help if you are only willing to listen and improve.
The fact that OP can trash all over their effort when they likely put tens and hundreds of hours of testing and editing those videos is really disgraceful. Especially when the same OP is sporting apex tier quality youtube content with full 15k views!!! and unedited videos and inane threads like this one written with Yugoslavia tier broken English and mad rans. Truly OP, you are hero we all deserve.

iksde

sarahthes wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

It took me three pages to get the the heart of OPs issue. They are a tank, and they want to run vet end game content without being told what sets to wear, by groups who want to be as optimized as possible.


To that end, yes it’s annoying when an inexperienced raid leader thinks there’s one tank set that works for all vet content because they read it somewhere. There are different tanking setups needed for different types of fights.

But OP is also wrong for stubbornly insisting they wear what works best for them, rather than what works best for the group. Tanks and healers are support roles, not selfish ones.

The solution for them is simple if this is the case. They should start their own guild and raid team.

I do have to throw a thought out there. People like to say that Alcast's builds are for endgame and new players shouldn't jump to them. I'm gonna take the opposite approach and say that Alcast's builds are for beginners. There's nothing wrong with them from that standpoint, but an actual endgame player isn't gonna be using an Alcast 'setup 1' build...

yep
for me and my guild progressing trials alcast builds are literally only for beginners at all becaue for real endgame, progressing for the best scores almost nobody for us fit what Alcast have on his page with builds, we ale use much more efficient cp, setups

as this is also nothing suprising...Alcast like many more if everyone from such high lvl wont share their top top setups because it will give advantage other progressing groups which are capable to beat them an with this info shared they would beat them even easier so it is not surprisng content creators like Alcast wont share their real META setups at all but just an average

Zodiarkslayer

@Firstmep Please read carefully!

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

There are a lot of build videos out there and they mostly lack context! Not content. I do not name or shame.

That referance is intentionally unspecific to AVOID NAMING AND SHAMING!

And, if you insist:
I do not mean Alcast! His WEBSITE is not bad. But his VIDEOS are Entertainment! He is, if anything, the shiny tip of a dirty iceberg.

idk

@AyaDark

Simply put, the meta builds, especially for tank and healers, are intended for optimizing groups with a certain degree of experience that is still far from being a top player. As an example, they are not intended for a new tank that has not developed some minimal competency. Further, even with good tanks, there are times they should wear what is called selfish sets.

In the end, it is the raid leader that has the final say. If the group is still learning, is more of a training group, then the raid leader should encourage more selfish sets for the tanks and healers if that seems to be what is needed. This is part of their job as the raid leader. However, if the group is at a level where they can handle the tanks and healers running sets to optimize the group's performance but a tank (or a healer) is not as experienced and cannot perform to the groups expectations then the raid leader should find a different tank and the tank should go elsewhere.

If someone does not want to wear the gear the raid leader wants them to wear and neither can compromise on this it is best for the tank to find a different group. The meta builds are not the issue.

iksde

AyaDark wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

resdayn00 wrote: »

Give a beginner a sharp sword and he will cut himself with it. It's not the blacksmith's fault for making a sharp sword, it's the beginner's fault for not practicing with a wooden sword first.

Replace sharp sword with endgame meta build, blacksmith with theorycrafter, wooden sword with beginner friendly build.

So all they do is give sharp blades of bad quality to beginners.

Because not beginners do not buy there stuff, they use guns.

It is not there fault or beginners.

We get what we get, i just show the situation.

so we are still with topic of content creators yes?
so they create videos, builds mainly for endgame...mostly they have in descrpition for what lvl it is and they cant know what people will watch them and then copy
they can guess just anybody can look at this but they aren't aware, when and who will actually copy them in 100%

this is not their fault someone without exp will look at their build and 100% copy paste it without experience

as you say this is not beginners fault because they took to sharp sword for start

same it is not content creators fault because theyr dont control who actually will take this sharp blade

I will add to it this is more of these beginners thing, fault or not or just unawarness of their inexperience because (theoretically) beginners should know theyr are not that eexp for endgame so they should be aware they need more practise, get more experience before touching very sharp sword

thats just thing there is no overall/general/total (or how else name it) mentor for everyone, just nobody is monitored by mentor/teacher/parent who will take care of him and stop from things for which he is not ready yet so people should have self awarness, self-restraint from to hard/to complicated things if they are still beginners without much exp, this is on them without control of anyone if they will took wooden sword for start of practise or instantly sharp sword and then be suprised they maked bad move and lost hand because they didnt know anything how they shold have used it and they didn't have anyone to control them to not touch it yet, they are on their self

I can not say for your country, but you can not buy weapon in our country. For this you need paper from doctor and paper that you know how to use it.

Even i just do not people some build i tell him how and where it have to work.

Now situation looks for me like:
Some player is dead and he say it is my fault that i am alive and do not play META.

They think that other players MUST do some thing for them.

No they must not.

If you want as example tank support you - HEAL tank.

If you do less damage do mechaniks ! Or why are some DD so proud there DPS when just stand and hit dummy like ?

Did you run portal ? No
Did you kill ads m ? No
Did you buff group ? No
What did you do ? Stand in AOE and DPS boss.

With 2 sets from supports just for him, other good DD can get better numbers, who did the work !

"Other MUST give me sustain"

They must not - even without people like this - pass is even simpker by 11 people run than 11+ 1 meta like this.

and here in game you dont need any papers to get the best set, all you need is willings to farm it and for some sets also group to run this content
and even if you have papes to buy weapon...it doesnt matter how good, expensive weapon you will buy with great accuracty, if you didn't learn before how to aim, shoot no any great weapon will make you great and accuracy shooting, you will be still missing if you dont practise


I cant understand last your sentence....but if we are in trial group healers talk about what they will use and thye will use support sets for most of the group like...why to use support set for single or 2 players in group instead of for 6?

or if they have split group in half for 4 stamina and 4 magica dps...they will still use support for magica dps because magica need more support t work than stamina and still stamina is getting some from somme supports which we have avaible to support magica/overall dps

If it is hard understand me, sorry i try say with example:

We have 8 dds, they all are LA players.
It is promoted game play.

If i am HA user, i can have the same 50 k DPS on 3 kk dummy as they do. I use 1 party buff set on DD.

On 21 kk dummy i have less values, because DD use sustain food and Atro gives sustain i do not need.

So i have 65-70 k dps on it. In raid LA player needs 2 sets for sustain to do the same, as this food gives him on atro.

With other sets, i can get 10% more, like 77k dps , he get the same, but i use 1buff set. So DD like this is better than 80 k dps dummy guy.

It is not standart builds, so 15-20% of players run builds like this, other 80% use "META".

Custome self sustain builds do not need resources, we can run both mana/stamina raids. But we need different sets.

LA user with no mana can not DPS, so we always get 2 sets we do not need and our damage are less (trully i have 12-13%always), but i can have more. It is much simpler to play, becouse you always have resources, you can even support group and heal if you need if healer get disconnect for short duration.

With LA trend promotion builds like this will not show full potencial, but even so they are good.

Becouse people say like "they MUST", no it do not work like that

We have our own + and - with builds like this. And may be top score party can do more dps in solo target, but we can do something else better : better survive, support, susain, aoe and etc.

People just do not understand it yet.

This patch i put custome build on my girl templat, she was meta LA DD with 50+ on 3 kk.

Templars have bad sustain. Now she has the same 50+ with infinit mana. + It is unkillable build.

What is the point people play old meta that is bad for 90% of them ?

Not all of them have more than 75k dps on 21kk dummy.

In this situation other sets, combinations and game play is better.

People do not even start thinking !

"My my, new META build for 100500 dps"
You only can do 70 k with it what is a point for you other man can do 100500 with it ?
It is harder for you, try something better for you.

"No - META - some other guy play better with it, so i just copy it and will play worse than i can in different sets and style"

Ok, play like you want.

"And you must do the same, play meta with worse numbers for you !"

What ???

"It is META all must play like this !"

Is it a joke ?

ok, I get it now xD ty for better explaining

and well..some depends just what you are able to do, some depends what is is currently viable in game and what would be most efficient in overall to use and your role

as for support roles like tank I will say if you dont have your own group to lead but you are under someone's lead who want most efficient setup then you are just enslaved by meta which is viable in game, it doesnt matter by how much vontent creators it was shared because a the end it will look to be most efficient option

unless you get your other option which can be similiar efficient of this then as for me it is even better for you te get to that point to get something off meta and be still so efficient but this then will need some explaintation to leader why would you use it over checked meta and if he wont let you use it or even let you go to test on trial for this...then it is not just elitism...it is just ignorance

and I will also agree that for some players it is better, more efficient playing with non-meta than with meta but for this again...if someone is blaming you for using this instead of meta then he is just ignorant and he always should have someone else better in change of you if he have so much problem about this, if he is so toxic towards someone not wanting playing meta when it have similiar effectivens as meta but feel much better playing with this instead with meta

iksde

@AyaDark
like for example 1 my friend who plays more casually here...he got to good lvl on tank with his selfish sets for healing
he is good tank but also a bit ignorant or just not caring to go for much harder cotnent, endgame

he was wearing just everything for healing procs, leeching and syvarra scales and master shield from DSA
he was doing very great for himself but for easier content he was doing nothing for rest of the group, like whe didnt even needed to be so tankly,, he could support us more with just debuffing enemies or buffing us with other sets so we could burn even faster mobs, trashes, we was just fighting longer unecessary

and for harder content, we went for vUG and here he started having problems and he was unable to even stay alive on last boss with hm, his own selfish healing build went to nothing because he didn't even want to use plague doctor or anything else for more tankniess isntead of healing, doesnt even matter if that was meta or not, he didn't wanted to change to literally anything to be able to beat this boss on hm so we have done it without hm

and when he was starting build for his tank and when we was playing already I was trying still to explaing him why he should use other sets or atleast have them to swap when needed very much like for vUG hmbut he is just to stubborn


so there are many different apects and possibilities of who to blame or what is wrong

it can be just players ignornace, stubborn, lazyness, not carying for enviorment/people around them and we can also add jsut bad humour, mood of players you will meet while playing which will be enough for them to start acting more elitist, toxic because of bad day or jsut because of different bad experience with similiar players before and they are biased towards same type of players

AyaDark

Reverb wrote: »

It took me three pages to get the the heart of OPs issue. They are a tank, and they want to run vet end game content without being told what sets to wear, by groups who want to be as optimized as possible.


To that end, yes it’s annoying when an inexperienced raid leader thinks there’s one tank set that works for all vet content because they read it somewhere. There are different tanking setups needed for different types of fights.

But OP is also wrong for stubbornly insisting they wear what works best for them, rather than what works best for the group. Tanks and healers are support roles, not selfish ones.

I do not already interested in any TESO PVE content, that you may name END or Starter content. And the only problem i did not get some achivments is not like i do not do something or not.
First of all i have only 20 k - point.

But i have a lot of 3 in 1 closed in vDLC content. But i am really bad in questing and same.

The only problem i do not make 3 in 1 in vBRP is AFK betwin arenas and we did not have constant people that can stay alive

But i did not die , so get achivment for other mans play is not my main goal

2 of us can even do 32 minutes run of some vDLC +hm + no death, so 2 minutes more for 3 in 1 in some DLC is possible to DUO for us in 1 run, but we already have it so no really interested.

The same for trials, no death is nightmare, becouse people die like undeads. You can already pass some trials with 4 people, but other 8 will die by CD.

So even already do not care, as the people i play with.

You can try trials for years, that is possible to pass for your group from first try.

May be you just like some pain, i do not know. If it is some Masochism, who am i to say something.

But it is possible to clear much much simpler - it is all i want to say.

It is pain when people need years to progress some content, that is possible to do in more brained sets.

But it is your only choise.
Play meta that you like that much

Masochism looks good in some cartoons so i will just think about that cartoons in time like this.

And about tanks, Last words:

If your party has good DPS, good HPS 20k, and you pass, do not even read this topic.

If you do not - Tank dies, run with adds and boss, not good dps, then:

Put sustained sets on tank. If he will not die and lose agr you will may be pass. If you are not full potatos. I like Cyrodill crest+Leeching plate = 20+ k resources , 32500 defs with buff (i use balance), 42 k hp, charged weapon to get stamina from leaching on DK. If you can die with it, man you are the best dead man i ever see
Crest heals you before strike, so it can save you in a lot of situations.
And only you get this, from start of your game or the same like sets with 2k + hps and some sustain each - try to get all support sets you can.
Each support set tank can use gives only 2+- % more dps to your party. Remember this.

What is difference with good and bad tank?
Good one:
He has a lot of sets. He go full selfish first.
If he see that all is ok he put 1 support set on. If all is good, healers are good to, good dps, he see they can skip, he put 2-support set on.

Bad one:
He already is in ebon + alcosh. Even in vDLC random group.
And all you understand that you will not even get 1k hp buff and he will be dead all the time

The same for trials. With people he newer see before.

Meta like play;)

Like META but not even close

I hope you pass, and wish you good luck.

And i hope it will not be 0 tanks only fake DD s in randoms next years, and if it will, you will not ask in future: " why is it so bad, we need limit fake tanking".

sarahthes

When I tank 4 man content I don't need to wear selfish sets to stay alive no matter how low the group DPS is. I don't need a healer either. Not much is going to kill me in a vet dlc dungeon.

Note I'm not even a tank main. I'd rather DPS or heal, though I don't normally bring a healer to 4 man content as the only place I've found it really necessary is Castle Thorn HM.

When I raid lead, I specify the sets I want supports bringing. If it's an open run, then I will add a note that if someone wants to tank or heal but doesn't have all the requested gear they can message me. We may be able to come to an arrangement.

Btw meta for tanks in dungeons is Yoln Olo or Yoln PA or similar. I only wear Alkosh in 4 man because I'm lazy.

AyaDark

NEMESIS_97 wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

NEMESIS_97 wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

resdayn00 wrote: »

Give a beginner a sharp sword and he will cut himself with it. It's not the blacksmith's fault for making a sharp sword, it's the beginner's fault for not practicing with a wooden sword first.

Replace sharp sword with endgame meta build, blacksmith with theorycrafter, wooden sword with beginner friendly build.

So all they do is give sharp blades of bad quality to beginners.

Because not beginners do not buy there stuff, they use guns.

It is not there fault or beginners.

We get what we get, i just show the situation.

so we are still with topic of content creators yes?
so they create videos, builds mainly for endgame...mostly they have in descrpition for what lvl it is and they cant know what people will watch them and then copy
they can guess just anybody can look at this but they aren't aware, when and who will actually copy them in 100%

this is not their fault someone without exp will look at their build and 100% copy paste it without experience

as you say this is not beginners fault because they took to sharp sword for start

same it is not content creators fault because theyr dont control who actually will take this sharp blade

I will add to it this is more of these beginners thing, fault or not or just unawarness of their inexperience because (theoretically) beginners should know theyr are not that eexp for endgame so they should be aware they need more practise, get more experience before touching very sharp sword

thats just thing there is no overall/general/total (or how else name it) mentor for everyone, just nobody is monitored by mentor/teacher/parent who will take care of him and stop from things for which he is not ready yet so people should have self awarness, self-restraint from to hard/to complicated things if they are still beginners without much exp, this is on them without control of anyone if they will took wooden sword for start of practise or instantly sharp sword and then be suprised they maked bad move and lost hand because they didnt know anything how they shold have used it and they didn't have anyone to control them to not touch it yet, they are on their self

I can not say for your country, but you can not buy weapon in our country. For this you need paper from doctor and paper that you know how to use it.

Even i just do not people some build i tell him how and where it have to work.

Now situation looks for me like:
Some player is dead and he say it is my fault that i am alive and do not play META.

They think that other players MUST do some thing for them.

No they must not.

If you want as example tank support you - HEAL tank.

If you do less damage do mechaniks ! Or why are some DD so proud there DPS when just stand and hit dummy like ?

Did you run portal ? No
Did you kill ads m ? No
Did you buff group ? No
What did you do ? Stand in AOE and DPS boss.

With 2 sets from supports just for him, other good DD can get better numbers, who did the work !

"Other MUST give me sustain"

They must not - even without people like this - pass is even simpker by 11 people run than 11+ 1 meta like this.

Eso's group dynamics are determined by the players, healers run sets that support the group Beacuse for most people a zouple of heal over times are already more than enough to stay alive.
Tanks run support sets, Beacuse you can acquire the required "tankiness", without running selfish or defensive sets.

If you need to run a selfish build, that's your problem, if your group is fine with it no problem.
But don't blame others if they have certain expectations from you that you can't/won't meet.

You write about tankeness, do you play tank ? Tank was my main.
Becouse of peoples not clever actions i decided that it is more simple to play DD.

But i really like tanks, so i always will wish best for them.

You can tank on DD by the way, i can do it, in meta with 1 minute boss kill DD can do it.

Will you try if community decide you should do it and have enough tankeness ?

It must be healthy logick, not community decided. 2% of this community really pass, but 98% of others always decided.

I play all roles..have 3 tanks..2 healers and 12 dps...so your question?about easy play...mastering dps rotation,la wieving and pulling high dps on whole encounter is way harder..from my personal exp..when you learn all roles its goes dd easiest then healer and last tank..when you got familiar with them then situation changes..dps becomes harder then tanking and last healing...when you learn boss/ads mehs and what to do with tank its becomes easy..but sustain high dps in intense battle doing mehs and avoiding dangers with perfect rotation for long duration becomes way harder..

You can have 12 tanks but play all 12 bad, and ?

You have all 3 roll only shows that you play 1 of them 3 times less, what roll is it ?

I can not say anything more when i do not see your current game.

But in my own expirience, people who try to show that they are cool and are really bad always say something like this.

And i have Tank, DD and i can heal. I am really bad healer you know ?

But I only see 8 healers better then my DD healer for 3 years in thus game.

One of them was 500 +- CP.

If other healers are that bad and best group will have one if this good, how bad healing do I get on tank in not top party ? Do not even want to think about it. When in some raid 2 DD and tank have 50% hps.

Some HOF run HM we go to help.

May be healer there had 12 heals each, but why i need to heal on DD to PASS ?

Or all here are top partys with 20 k HPs on heals and 1 kk dps ?

I can not believe it

Always can show my tanking when will get spare time to waste...sure now tanking way less then dpsing and even way less healing..btw most of your text is hard to understand...but ofc inv me will find way to show you how you can tank..survive and live fine with not selfish sets

For me video is enough

Tanking in dunguans i can solo on DD already do not show me anything in party with me, only if tank dies it shows )))
May be do not know some mech of dunguan

But i easely can say tanks skill if i see him in not exp group on video or some thingblike this With tons of adds, how he fight for his live as example. I did the same on my ebon tank 3 years ago some nostalgia

AyaDark

sarahthes wrote: »

When I tank 4 man content I don't need to wear selfish sets to stay alive no matter how low the group DPS is. I don't need a healer either. Not much is going to kill me in a vet dlc dungeon.

Note I'm not even a tank main. I'd rather DPS or heal, though I don't normally bring a healer to 4 man content as the only place I've found it really necessary is Castle Thorn HM.

When I raid lead, I specify the sets I want supports bringing. If it's an open run, then I will add a note that if someone wants to tank or heal but doesn't have all the requested gear they can message me. We may be able to come to an arrangement.

Btw meta for tanks in dungeons is Yoln Olo or Yoln PA or similar. I only wear Alkosh in 4 man because I'm lazy.

As example vet DLC Moon Hunter Keep HM?

With low dps as example. We duo it with no death as example. But tank was hard there and i even heal him a little on DD.

Castle Thorn HM. Is about Man with WireWolf mechanick ? Or vampire?

If with vampire it was easy HM there, other one was more painfull for tank by damage.

Do not remember new DLC we just pass it some times but did not do it for long as DLC before. So sorry about it. Really do not remember what is it about. Only remember 2 new dunguans but ut is hard to remember what from 2 of this new.

By the way : Yolnokrin gives 2-% to party dps. If 2 dd have 100 k dps it is less than 4 k dps. In solo target. + if leach heals it can do heals play more easy, so heal can dps more. If it is 3 DD run 65 + k dps for DD, but with the same buffs and dubuffs, leaching do more dps to, so, and you need healing with yol so ... .
I have perfected gold one but i only trully put it on once Not some thing really good.

Leaching heals and gives 3 k dps output on DK in my build.

If DD run they can not do 100 k dps, so is Yolnokrin healthy for dunguans ?

Just say me trully

On my DD i even do not care sets on tank in vDLC. I need him live and bash boss that is all.

To meta some thing i can duo with tank for more dps that we duo for 30-40 minutes is not even healthy sound for me.

Rapid run buff is more good for me then, but the main problem for me is lose direction and i am a little slow in movment when no enemys.

It can do run faster than some 2% dps like set ))))

JimmyJuJu

1. People >> Sets
2. Knowledge >> Sets
3. Skill >> Sets

If you have those 3 things in an organized group, you are 98% there.

AyaDark

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

1. People >> Sets
2. Knowledge >> Sets
3. Skill >> Sets

If you have those 3 things in an organized group, you are 98% there.

1) People > sets it is true.
But some people want to play there main. It can be 2 templars, 3 dks.
So you lose DPS becouse it us not 100500 NBs, group is not already organized.
2)Knowledge > sets true.
With different sets you can get more dps on some DDs in this situation if you use not meta gear.
3)Skill > set , true.
Some times better time for debuff is better than better uptime. Healing of dd or tank res is more important than DPS from him.
Dead DD do no dps and DD who wipe party but do more dps and have better sets is even more pain.

You can not get all 3 of this becouse group will not be organized. You always can get better in theory, but less on real conditions.

I really did not understand the last part about %

JimmyJuJu

AyaDark wrote: »

I really did not understand the last part about %

It means if you have the 3 basic conditions of a well-organized group you have almost everything you need for a "meta" experience. The gear sets and skill load-out almost becomes an after-thought.

In my experience, forcing sets and skill load-out on a team that doesn't meet the essential 3 requirements for a well-organized group results in a poor experience. Always.

sarahthes

AyaDark wrote: »

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

1. People >> Sets
2. Knowledge >> Sets
3. Skill >> Sets

If you have those 3 things in an organized group, you are 98% there.

1) People > sets it is true.
But some people want to play there main. It can be 2 templars, 3 dks.
So you lose DPS becouse it us not 100500 NBs, group is not already organized.
2)Knowledge > sets true.
With different sets you can get more dps on some DDs in this situation if you use not meta gear.
3)Skill > set , true.
Some times better time for debuff is better than better uptime. Healing of dd or tank res is more important than DPS from him.
Dead DD do no dps and DD who wipe party but do more dps and have better sets is even more pain.

You can not get all 3 of this becouse group will not be organized. You always can get better in theory, but less on real conditions.

I really did not understand the last part about %

In my open runs, sure bring your main. Wear what you want.

In my closed runs, you bring what I tell you to bring and you wear what I tell you to wear as raid lead. Or you don't get to raid with me.

It's that simple.

People who don't like it are free to form their own groups.

JimmyJuJu

sarahthes wrote: »

In my open runs, sure bring your main. Wear what you want.

In my closed runs, you bring what I tell you to bring and you wear what I tell you to wear as raid lead. Or you don't get to raid with me.

It's that simple.

People who don't like it are free to form their own groups.

If that's made clear up-front then I see no problems here. I also presume you only invite folks to your closed raids who are already knowledgeable and skilled on the content you are running - and are "ok" with a prescribed setup.

AyaDark

sarahthes wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

JimmyJuJu wrote: »

1. People >> Sets
2. Knowledge >> Sets
3. Skill >> Sets

If you have those 3 things in an organized group, you are 98% there.

1) People > sets it is true.
But some people want to play there main. It can be 2 templars, 3 dks.
So you lose DPS becouse it us not 100500 NBs, group is not already organized.
2)Knowledge > sets true.
With different sets you can get more dps on some DDs in this situation if you use not meta gear.
3)Skill > set , true.
Some times better time for debuff is better than better uptime. Healing of dd or tank res is more important than DPS from him.
Dead DD do no dps and DD who wipe party but do more dps and have better sets is even more pain.

You can not get all 3 of this becouse group will not be organized. You always can get better in theory, but less on real conditions.

I really did not understand the last part about %

In my open runs, sure bring your main. Wear what you want.

In my closed runs, you bring what I tell you to bring and you wear what I tell you to wear as raid lead. Or you don't get to raid with me.

It's that simple.

People who don't like it are free to form their own groups.

I am freee yeyyy

But lets speak seriously:
May be all go well, but what problem we had.

You can put sets on, but people can be not inteested in it. For me it was like:
RL put sets on me it did not work, they try to much, no progress i understand that he was ... and go away.
You form your own raid, search people, they play like they want, you pass. You want more, people start to go away. You understand that it is not correct, find new people. They play bad and want full meta, you go them away , your group of old players can easely do vCR +1 with only half members, but for more you need more people. You look for them, they are 100 % time dead, ok.
And one day old team say to you, i am boring !!! PVE is so easy and boring, i go away.

And then , ... all bad comes.

Yes we can duo a lot, we can pass a lot but to less of us. New players are some times get me angrier , you want 3 in 1, some get skin and run away. He do not need more.

And you wach all this ... PVE is boring, better PVP all them in cyrodill

All i get start with, people must play and progress they like, you lose a lot of good players other way. If people want to play better META will only be anchor for them.

It must be fun in first place, you will not get fun with game style you do not like and bad people.

To do score runs you first need to do a lot of just pass runs, the same group. If it is not comfortable it will run away.

It is not comfortable to play like some low skilled guy. It is all it looks for me, all this meta.

Change class each update and etc.

It must be players own choise, or you will not pass more. All can be passed a lot of different ways. And the reason why some even good groups will not pass one day is the reason of losing not standart run like idea people.

That is what i think, may be i am not 100% correct.

It is only my opinion. I can not 100% calculate it, like sets or skills to put on

JimmyJuJu

It's a little hard to follow your meaning but here's something we can all relate to:

"When you are grown up, live on your own, pay your own bills - you can do whatever you want. But while you are living in my house, you follow my rules."

- Every dad, everywhere, over all time

In summary, if you want to be included in someone else's group, you have to play by their rules. If you don't like their rules, make your own group with your own rules.

pelle412

Holy cow, what a thread? There is a meta, but it isn't the problem here. The problem is newer players wanting to join other groups, that has requirements on them. To solve this problem you create your own progression group in which you decide what goes and doesn't. Can you do it without meta setups? Yes of course. Dive in and have fun.

NupidStoob

Damn these "toxic" helpful people on youtube and their builds. How dare they give advice on how to play the game more effectively!

While ESOs endgame community certainly isn't the most wholesome I have heard a lot more insults towards endgame players from casuals than the other way around. Meta is a simple concept. Lot's of people with many thousands of hours of combined testing and game experience have come up with it. It's a part of every game and you are free to ignore it. However if you put yourself into group content you have the obligation to do all you can to secure the groups success. Just think of it like a school group project. Nobody wants to carry people through it that don't contribute. It's exactly the same in group content in games. The audacity to say that people that demand you carry your own weight are toxic is beyond me.

Jeremy

Choucroute wrote: »

@AyaDark

Sustain isn't the DPS' job, it's the supports. That's why they're called supports.
As a support healer it means you need to heal the tank and the DPS constantly (with heals over times), you give them resources (with arena weapons, more than enough orbs, monster sets, and possibly 5-pieces sustain sets (they are not a necessity for a support to help with sustain though)), you debuff the targets and buff your allies.
Why heavy attack when you can do more damage by using skills, light attacks, and without caring about your sustain?
I'm a main healer, I am proud when my DPS and tanks claim they had seriously no sustain issues, when they didn't have to think about it because they were given more than enough resources back from me. And it's just how it should be.
Everybody should be doing their job, period.

I'm not sure if I'm missing any of the context here (so if I am I apologize). But relying on others to handle your sustain for you sounds like a bad idea to me. Maybe if you have an organized group you routinely run with where you know what builds and strategies your allies run this approach can work. But if you go into the activity finder with this kind of approach it's likely going to backfire. So I would really recommend players consider managing their own sustain instead of relying on others to do it for them.

iksde

Jeremy wrote: »

Choucroute wrote: »

@AyaDark

Sustain isn't the DPS' job, it's the supports. That's why they're called supports.
As a support healer it means you need to heal the tank and the DPS constantly (with heals over times), you give them resources (with arena weapons, more than enough orbs, monster sets, and possibly 5-pieces sustain sets (they are not a necessity for a support to help with sustain though)), you debuff the targets and buff your allies.
Why heavy attack when you can do more damage by using skills, light attacks, and without caring about your sustain?
I'm a main healer, I am proud when my DPS and tanks claim they had seriously no sustain issues, when they didn't have to think about it because they were given more than enough resources back from me. And it's just how it should be.
Everybody should be doing their job, period.

I'm not sure if I'm missing any of the context here (so if I am I apologize). But relying on others to handle your sustain for you sounds like a bad idea to me. Maybe if you have an organized group you routinely run with where you know what builds and strategies your allies run this approach can work. But if you go into the activity finder with this kind of approach it's likely going to backfire. So I would really recommend players consider managing their own sustain instead of relying on others to do it for them.

so I will answer to missing context :P

helers in dungs dont have to much to do at all, especially when we was staing also in this thread before how it is no problem for tanks to run with 3dd in literally every dung hm
so healer's only job will be to just put and 1 or 2 HoT's and he will have nothing to do and somethimes using just insta higher heal whiel others do more job like tank keeping agro on everything and debuffs and DD's roatations with mechanics, avaiding daamg stuff

and so if healer would be doing nothign special here he is no need at all because everyone can slot single selfheal, damage shield and will be fine so here is starting healer job as buffer to group and helping with sustain to show his role is worth or worth more than 3rd dd in group which especially withinh randoms from gf is so rare to be (mainly because people are just uninformed how better people dont need that much heals from healer but will very much appreciate help with buffs, sustain than healing 24/7 and how it is just no needed healing 24/7)

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

In my experience, players who toss around "toxic" and "elitists" constantly are usually exactly what they try to condemn, in their own way, and the words have almost lost all meaning. I actually understand what you're trying to say, to some extent; but in order to complete the hardest content in the game in an *effcient* manner, understanding meta is essential. Meta is not some evil disease, nor is it something that must be followed. It simply exists as a guideline of how things might be done, just like the build videos on youtube. Progressing end game content... That's what it's for. Take it or leave it. But I wouldn't judge those that do follow it, as the words in your post insinuated.

hexentb16_ESO

While I don't necessarily disrespect people who use a build someone else made I certainly don't respect them for using it.

Half the fun of the game is making your own builds and kicking ass with them. I don't get the enjoyment of using someone else's build.

This of course doesn't apply to people learning. I'm talking specifically about copy/pasters

iksde

hexentb16_ESO wrote: »

While I don't necessarily disrespect people who use a build someone else made I certainly don't respect them for using it.

Half the fun of the game is making your own builds and kicking ass with them. I don't get the enjoyment of using someone else's build.

This of course doesn't apply to people learning. I'm talking specifically about copy/pasters

most of sets anyway is just useless and even more is useless for specific content....by the low amount of how much sets you would be able to use for your role for specific content I will say you will never be able to create your own build
even you you get into build by yourself not watching for otheres...there most probably it was discovered by someone else and you are just coupying it, unaware but yet already copying because there is no way someone wont discover potential of something new or dont read patch notes with great buffs to something to be finally usefull and dont share it with someone else where it anyway will end with publiced build by someone
not to mention with just changes, new things on PTS...people will alredy have discovered new builds if they will come before you will "create" after release if this on live...in game like this you will almost never be orginal with build to be it enough good, efficient to be in place of meta or close to meta

so sorry but in mmo game and with internet...you have no way to not run copy/paste build to be efficient for endgame and especially here where we don't have to much working well possibilites at all

AyaDark

NupidStoob wrote: »

Damn these "toxic" helpful people on youtube and their builds. How dare they give advice on how to play the game more effectively!

While ESOs endgame community certainly isn't the most wholesome I have heard a lot more insults towards endgame players from casuals than the other way around. Meta is a simple concept. Lot's of people with many thousands of hours of combined testing and game experience have come up with it. It's a part of every game and you are free to ignore it. However if you put yourself into group content you have the obligation to do all you can to secure the groups success. Just think of it like a school group project. Nobody wants to carry people through it that don't contribute. It's exactly the same in group content in games. The audacity to say that people that demand you carry your own weight are toxic is beyond me.

Ok ok, wipe in your META gear it is your choise.

I just say it is possible to make good dps do not die, and do not eat tons of potions. You can play META if you want.

If you do score runs, have 95 k dps OK your choise.

If you have 70 k, die , eat a lot of potions, do not run score runs , may be you did a wrong choise in your build.

NEMESIS_97

AyaDark wrote: »

NupidStoob wrote: »

Damn these "toxic" helpful people on youtube and their builds. How dare they give advice on how to play the game more effectively!

While ESOs endgame community certainly isn't the most wholesome I have heard a lot more insults towards endgame players from casuals than the other way around. Meta is a simple concept. Lot's of people with many thousands of hours of combined testing and game experience have come up with it. It's a part of every game and you are free to ignore it. However if you put yourself into group content you have the obligation to do all you can to secure the groups success. Just think of it like a school group project. Nobody wants to carry people through it that don't contribute. It's exactly the same in group content in games. The audacity to say that people that demand you carry your own weight are toxic is beyond me.

Ok ok, wipe in your META gear it is your choise.

I just say it is possible to make good dps do not die, and do not eat tons of potions. You can play META if you want.

If you do score runs, have 95 k dps OK your choise.

If you have 70 k, die , eat a lot of potions, do not run score runs , may be you did a wrong choise in your build.

Lol what? I clear vma with ay+rele..why you need wipe?my flawless conquerer on stamplar was with deadly+rele+selene with 15k hp...