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Ring of the Pale Order should be restricted to solo play only.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The slippery sloped hysteria over this ring is HILARIOUS.I guess the bigger question is why does OP care if anyone uses this ring in group content?
It's mostly because people (mostly healers) are paranoid that they'll no longer be needed. At least that's been the general consensus in zone and in the majority of "NERF PALE ORDER NAO" threads.
That is not the reason healers are not in significant demand for a lot of content in the game.
No, but it is over the ring. Looking at several of the threads in the last few weeks, including the PTS, healers have been trying to get the ring nerfed because it makes them and I quote,
"Makes healers more useless than what we already are."
So yes, it's not the reason healers are not in significant demand, but they believe that this furthers that narrative and it clearly does not. I think you misunderstood, my friend. Because that's the reason why they care if people use it in group content - they think it makes them that much more useless.
Ahh. so the argument is healers being fairly useless to very much useless.
Since the game has launched a pure healer has been a bad healer except in trials. I remember my first clear of vDSA in 2014, I had only BoL and Repentance on my bar to heal for the first nine arenas, no staff.
It really is telling when you encounter healers who say, "take away tools from other players so that they'll need us," instead of, "give us more tools to be useful."
Because, a healer can be a useful part of the team. And then we get the entire Pale Order discussion, and as a tank main, I just want to pound my head into the desk.
"No, give me shards or balls! Stop spamming BoL, I can keep myself upright just fine if I have the resources."4 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭The slippery sloped hysteria over this ring is HILARIOUS.I guess the bigger question is why does OP care if anyone uses this ring in group content?
It's mostly because people (mostly healers) are paranoid that they'll no longer be needed. At least that's been the general consensus in zone and in the majority of "NERF PALE ORDER NAO" threads.
That is not the reason healers are not in significant demand for a lot of content in the game.
No, but it is over the ring. Looking at several of the threads in the last few weeks, including the PTS, healers have been trying to get the ring nerfed because it makes them and I quote,
"Makes healers more useless than what we already are."
So yes, it's not the reason healers are not in significant demand, but they believe that this furthers that narrative and it clearly does not. I think you misunderstood, my friend. Because that's the reason why they care if people use it in group content - they think it makes them that much more useless.
Ahh. so the argument is healers being fairly useless to very much useless.
Since the game has launched a pure healer has been a bad healer except in trials. I remember my first clear of vDSA in 2014, I had only BoL and Repentance on my bar to heal for the first nine arenas, no staff.
If 2 k HPS that rings gives = all heal gives, yes healer like this is useless.
If healer do not give enough heal to DD and tank, that let him live with out using self heal - is useless healer.
We try once this experement - we say to healer - we remove all heals from bar, we play good enough to do 3 in one in near all DLC dunguans. And if we die not because of oneshot - it is your fault !
He healed us. And it was so hard for him, that he now walk DD.
Healer is not just mutagen spamer, some healers heal so good that i even do not think use self heal. I saw only 8 like that.
Just stand and spam 1 button is not healers play. Or if it does - than good party for him:
DD who only spam light attack and crashing shok and tank who lose agro.
What an absurd ? Who say that healers are no need ? It is wrong.
Healers that do not help party survive = no need. Like DD with 2k dps.
Like tank who do not agr.
It is all.
Stop say about "healers not needed" they are needed ! If they heal good enough party do not need heal themself.
How bad healer must be, to lose to 2 k HPS ring ?Edited by AyaDark on November 5, 2020 2:55PM0 -
Sephyr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »The slippery sloped hysteria over this ring is HILARIOUS.I guess the bigger question is why does OP care if anyone uses this ring in group content?
It's mostly because people (mostly healers) are paranoid that they'll no longer be needed. At least that's been the general consensus in zone and in the majority of "NERF PALE ORDER NAO" threads.
That is not the reason healers are not in significant demand for a lot of content in the game.
No, but it is over the ring. Looking at several of the threads in the last few weeks, including the PTS, healers have been trying to get the ring nerfed because it makes them and I quote,
"Makes healers more useless than what we already are."
So yes, it's not the reason healers are not in significant demand, but they believe that this furthers that narrative and it clearly does not. I think you misunderstood, my friend. Because that's the reason why they care if people use it in group content - they think it makes them that much more useless.
Ahh. so the argument is healers being fairly useless to very much useless.
Since the game has launched a pure healer has been a bad healer except in trials. I remember my first clear of vDSA in 2014, I had only BoL and Repentance on my bar to heal for the first nine arenas, no staff.
It really is telling when you encounter healers who say, "take away tools from other players so that they'll need us," instead of, "give us more tools to be useful."
Because, a healer can be a useful part of the team. And then we get the entire Pale Order discussion, and as a tank main, I just want to pound my head into the desk.
"No, give me shards or balls! Stop spamming BoL, I can keep myself upright just fine if I have the resources."
LOL, I was about to post this very thing. I'm glad I refreshed.
That's pretty much what I've also told them. Healers really aren't going anywhere. What's sad is that in most of my experiences with pugging, I'm usually the one giving the tank balls and synergies to the tank where as the healer is just often spamming a heal. When I'm on my necro healer, I'm always debuffing the boss and giving as many synergies as I can to the tank so they can have those resources. But I'm also dishing out DPS on said boss too. If an experienced DPS was using this ring and was able to keep their DPS reasonable? That'd make my job on keeping the rest of the group alive that much easier. Which is why I don't understand the hysteria nor the insecurity over the ring.
And then again with abilities like Blood for Blood which does more DPS with the less health you have. It's really inconvenient when you have to stop your rotation just to throw on another HoT so you stay in the juicy health threshold with that ability. It was also really inconvenient when healers could heal you up to full. With my testing, it really felt less clunky and I was able to decently use that ability. My main still uses Arterial Burst, however I'm REALLY thinking about making the swap since the spammable for me would be cheap at the stage I usually run anyways.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If 2 k HPS that rings gives = all heal gives, yes healer like this is useless.
If the only thing a healer is doing is pushing out heals... yeah, they are useless (outside of non-vet lowbie content.) The ring doesn't change that.If healer do not give enough heal to DD and tank, that let him live with out using self heal - is useless healer.
Let's be blunt, if the tank needs the healer to keep them up (most of the time), that means something has gone very wrong.
Yes, there are encounters where the tank will need external heals, but that is the exception.We try once this experement - we say to healer - we remove all heals from bar, we play good enough to do 3 in one in near all DLC dunguans. And if we die not because of oneshot - it is your fault !
He healed us. And it was so hard for him, that he now walk DD.
Yeah, I can't imagine why.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »The slippery sloped hysteria over this ring is HILARIOUS.I guess the bigger question is why does OP care if anyone uses this ring in group content?
It's mostly because people (mostly healers) are paranoid that they'll no longer be needed. At least that's been the general consensus in zone and in the majority of "NERF PALE ORDER NAO" threads.
That is not the reason healers are not in significant demand for a lot of content in the game.
No, but it is over the ring. Looking at several of the threads in the last few weeks, including the PTS, healers have been trying to get the ring nerfed because it makes them and I quote,
"Makes healers more useless than what we already are."
So yes, it's not the reason healers are not in significant demand, but they believe that this furthers that narrative and it clearly does not. I think you misunderstood, my friend. Because that's the reason why they care if people use it in group content - they think it makes them that much more useless.
Ahh. so the argument is healers being fairly useless to very much useless.
Since the game has launched a pure healer has been a bad healer except in trials. I remember my first clear of vDSA in 2014, I had only BoL and Repentance on my bar to heal for the first nine arenas, no staff.
It really is telling when you encounter healers who say, "take away tools from other players so that they'll need us," instead of, "give us more tools to be useful."
Because, a healer can be a useful part of the team. And then we get the entire Pale Order discussion, and as a tank main, I just want to pound my head into the desk.
"No, give me shards or balls! Stop spamming BoL, I can keep myself upright just fine if I have the resources."
LOL, I was about to post this very thing. I'm glad I refreshed.
That's pretty much what I've also told them. Healers really aren't going anywhere. What's sad is that in most of my experiences with pugging, I'm usually the one giving the tank balls and synergies to the tank where as the healer is just often spamming a heal. When I'm on my necro healer, I'm always debuffing the boss and giving as many synergies as I can to the tank so they can have those resources. But I'm also dishing out DPS on said boss too. If an experienced DPS was using this ring and was able to keep their DPS reasonable? That'd make my job on keeping the rest of the group alive that much easier. Which is why I don't understand the hysteria nor the insecurity over the ring.
And then again with abilities like Blood for Blood which does more DPS with the less health you have. It's really inconvenient when you have to stop your rotation just to throw on another HoT so you stay in the juicy health threshold with that ability. It was also really inconvenient when healers could heal you up to full. With my testing, it really felt less clunky and I was able to decently use that ability. My main still uses Arterial Burst, however I'm REALLY thinking about making the swap since the spammable for me would be cheap at the stage I usually run anyways.
You hit the nail on the head there, it's the insecurity.
Especially when you see newer healers who are obsessed with their HPS, like that's actually a meaningful stat.
"My HPS is so high!"
"Yeah, but Finn's electric sandwich shop still turns the DPS into pulled people pork on contact."
"But my HPS is so high, I am good healer!"
The irony is, I kinda expect we'll see some of the healbot crowd blaming the ring for deaths on lowbies, when it really is that their heals are just that bad.2 -
josiahva✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good Lord, who cares if someone uses this ring in group content? Good luck with it healing you even through the engine guardian poison phase...much less any real fights that require a healer. This wont help you against the 2nd boss in vMGF, or most anywhere else that requires a healer. The only place this ring helps DPS is places that they already don't need a healer...it changes nothing....if they need a healer to begin with, they need more healing than this ring can provide.0 -
AyaDark✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »If 2 k HPS that rings gives = all heal gives, yes healer like this is useless.
If the only thing a healer is doing is pushing out heals... yeah, they are useless (outside of non-vet lowbie content.) The ring doesn't change that.If healer do not give enough heal to DD and tank, that let him live with out using self heal - is useless healer.
Let's be blunt, if the tank needs the healer to keep them up (most of the time), that means something has gone very wrong.
Yes, there are encounters where the tank will need external heals, but that is the exception.We try once this experement - we say to healer - we remove all heals from bar, we play good enough to do 3 in one in near all DLC dunguans. And if we die not because of oneshot - it is your fault !
He healed us. And it was so hard for him, that he now walk DD.
Yeah, I can't imagine why.
Tanks do need heal.
If tank do not get it - he go full self geared, because he need his job be done. If he lose = near wipe situation.
So if tank do not need heal = he do not trust healer yet, or healer is bad.
As tank in past i can say it 100% true.
So he can say all is ok, but if he is dead - healers and RLs mistake. So we have "selfish tanks" - heroes that try to do there job even in not perfect party with bad healing and dps.
But peoples do not like them. Because they do there job good.
Where full meta tank can take resources ? And healing ? 20 k mana - 4-5 skills to cast ? If he is dead = wipe = bad tank ?
Or what he must say ? Healer is bad like ... ring ?
Top oparty have 25 k HPS !!! On 2 heals.
How much do ordinary party have ? It is good if 5-6k.
I was in vCR with party like:
1 healer 1200 hps, 2- healer 1500hps.
In vTrial !!!
Want to pass = adapt.
And i do not blame heals, its ok.
We do not start play full exp, to learn from 0 is ok.
But not okay is to blame tanks, other party members, sets, those who play good.
It is NOT ok.
That what i try to tell about.
May be i do not understand other people situation, but for me this game always is situation like this.
And i try to write how i see a problem.
You are not playing with perfect party, no one is perfect. Always people need to adapt.
If they adapt and play like they like it is ok.
If not, they will not progress, will not like to play. And it is really not ok.
2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »If 2 k HPS that rings gives = all heal gives, yes healer like this is useless.
If the only thing a healer is doing is pushing out heals... yeah, they are useless (outside of non-vet lowbie content.) The ring doesn't change that.If healer do not give enough heal to DD and tank, that let him live with out using self heal - is useless healer.
Let's be blunt, if the tank needs the healer to keep them up (most of the time), that means something has gone very wrong.
Yes, there are encounters where the tank will need external heals, but that is the exception.We try once this experement - we say to healer - we remove all heals from bar, we play good enough to do 3 in one in near all DLC dunguans. And if we die not because of oneshot - it is your fault !
He healed us. And it was so hard for him, that he now walk DD.
Yeah, I can't imagine why.
Tanks do need heal.
Only under rare circumstances. Usually specific encounters where the tank would need to bleed resources to recover from a hit.If tank do not get it - he go full self geared, because he need his job be done. If he lose = near wipe situation.
If the tank ever goes down, everyone's night is about to get a lot more "interesting."So if tank do not need heal = he do not trust healer yet, or healer is bad.
Or, the tank explicitly trusts the healer to know when he'll actually need their help, and that they can take care of the DPS outside of that. Experienced tank and healer teams are, just that, a team, but they're responsible for managing entirely different things. It's best when they can work in concert, and that does mean the tank isn't monopolizing the healer's attention.As tank in past i can say it 100% true.
As an experienced tank in vet content... no. The tank and healer both fill vital support roles for the DPS. If the tank is sitting there guzzling the healer's resources to stay upright, that's attention the DPS aren't getting. That's a recipe for very bad things to happen.
Now, you'll find DPS who will be fine on their own for a bit. But your tank needs to be mostly self-sufficient, because as the healer you have to split your attention between three people.So he can say all is ok, but if he is dead - healers and RLs mistake. So we have "selfish tanks" - heroes that try to do there job even in not perfect party with bad healing and dps.
If your tank bit off more than they could chew, that's on them.But peoples do not like them. Because they do there job good.
-Said No One Ever.Where full meta tank can take resources ? And healing ? 20 k mana - 4-5 skills to cast ? If he is dead = wipe = bad tank ?
Usually dead party members are engaging in less than optimal strategies.Or what he must say ? Healer is bad like ... ring ?
If that ring is a real threat to your healer, you could just replace them with Oblivion's Edge, and you'd get soul gems to rez your healer after they decided to face tank the floor.Top oparty have 25 k HPS !!! On 2 heals.
How much do ordinary party have ? It is good if 5-6k.
I was in vCR with party like:
1 healer 1200 hps, 2- healer 1500hps.
Yeah, that's meaningless. If the only thing those healers were doing was spamming healing springs, mutagen, and BoL, then applauding each other for how high their HPS were, they were not contributing to the run in a meaningful way.In vTrial !!!
Want to pass = adapt.
If your healer can be replaced by a single piece of gear, you're not getting value out of that healer.And i do not blame heals, its ok.
Except for that, "experiment."We do not start play full exp, to learn from 0 is ok.
At that point, if you're wanting to learn how to heal, you need to forget about HPS. It does not matter. Learn about the utility that a healer brings to the party, learn that, practice that. As the tank, I really do not care if you're chucking out BoL every 5 seconds, it doesn't help me when I need you to just cast shards.But not okay is to blame tanks, other party members, sets, those who play good.
No, but at the same time, when one of your party members is, "sub-par,' it's incredibly inappropriate to try to go to bat for them by advocating that the game should be nerfed, rather than trying to help them improve.It is NOT ok.
No one has said it was.That what i try to tell about.
May be i do not understand other people situation, but for me this game always is situation like this.
And i try to write how i see a problem.
You are not playing with perfect party, no one is perfect. Always people need to adapt.
With this in mind, it is important to take your words and reflect on them. You're approaching this item without an accurate understanding of the role healers play in endgame content.
You're speaking in absolutes to people who have far more experience with the game, and a much stronger grasp for how this item functions in the broader metagame.If they adapt and play like they like it is ok.
If not, they will not progress, will not like to play. And it is really not ok.
Abuse, in game, is a thing. I don't see it often, but it does happen out there. Abusing your fellow players isn't the answer. Working to help other players get a handle on how to play their role can be.
However, that's not what's happening here. You're telling people with extensive experience how this ring interferes with what you think a healer should be doing. The problem is, your understanding of the role is very introductory. Now, if you're new to healing, or you don't heal, that's fine, but if the only thing your healer is doing is filling up the red bar, they're not doing their job.2 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Am I missing something? I admittedly did not get on PTS this go round, but heard about how OP this ring is. Just ran VMA with it today on my sorc. I was not that impressed to be honest. Not sure its worth a slot when I can get way more healing from crit surge. Not saying its not a nice heal, but I am not seeing the OP'ness that was described. LOL
Now what they should do, revert Thrassian to launch and restrict that to solo play. Make VMA fun again. This was my first run post Thrassian or the Asylum staff (pre nerf). Boring...
The Ring is basicallly Crit Surge for all the classes, but you lose a Monster Set.
It is still good, but nowhere near as OP as people say when they read the tooltips.
Everyone sees Alcast doing it and thing everyone will get the same healing output... As if everyone in this game had buff uptime and light attack weave as good as Alcast.
If you can't keep you dots and buffs up consistently, the healing is not that great.
Plus, it won't save you from one shots, mechanics or phases without stuff to hit.
I like this ring a lot and I don't think it is overpowered.
@Calm_Fury
It is far weaker than crit surge based on my testing. I may not be Alcast, but my light Attack ratio is north of 9.0 and I assure you, my dots are all up. I specifically tested for VMA, where I have double digit Flawless conquerors, and run every burn strat in the arena. LOL.
I did see the alcast video where he basically said it was game breakingly OP. I am guessing something has changed since that video was posted, because it in no way is. Admittedly, I don't really care. If it was that OP, it would be bad for the game and would diminish flawless titles and that sort of thing. I just don't see what all the fuss was about. Certainly for mag sorc and nightblade, not worth a gear slot. Maybe good for stamina tunes in the Arena like NB that struggle with heals, but thats about all I can think of.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MirandaSharp wrote: »MirandaSharp wrote: »
It'll take a few weeks before we see the ring on the live server. It's not that easy to get...
@MirandaSharp
Takes maybe two hours of mostly killing bosses, and hunting a few chests. In terms of access to gear, this is about as easy as it gets. I don't see this being used by most groups, even if score pushing is the goal. Take a fight like Ice Dragon HM, its not going to save you from beam phase or the ice cages. Not saying you wont see any group take a run at it, but this item is just not that powerful as released. Maybe on earlier PTS versions it was OP, but that version didnt seem to make it to live.1 -
jaws343✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Am I missing something? I admittedly did not get on PTS this go round, but heard about how OP this ring is. Just ran VMA with it today on my sorc. I was not that impressed to be honest. Not sure its worth a slot when I can get way more healing from crit surge. Not saying its not a nice heal, but I am not seeing the OP'ness that was described. LOL
Now what they should do, revert Thrassian to launch and restrict that to solo play. Make VMA fun again. This was my first run post Thrassian or the Asylum staff (pre nerf). Boring...
The Ring is basicallly Crit Surge for all the classes, but you lose a Monster Set.
It is still good, but nowhere near as OP as people say when they read the tooltips.
Everyone sees Alcast doing it and thing everyone will get the same healing output... As if everyone in this game had buff uptime and light attack weave as good as Alcast.
If you can't keep you dots and buffs up consistently, the healing is not that great.
Plus, it won't save you from one shots, mechanics or phases without stuff to hit.
I like this ring a lot and I don't think it is overpowered.
@Calm_Fury
It is far weaker than crit surge based on my testing. I may not be Alcast, but my light Attack ratio is north of 9.0 and I assure you, my dots are all up. I specifically tested for VMA, where I have double digit Flawless conquerors, and run every burn strat in the arena. LOL.
I did see the alcast video where he basically said it was game breakingly OP. I am guessing something has changed since that video was posted, because it in no way is. Admittedly, I don't really care. If it was that OP, it would be bad for the game and would diminish flawless titles and that sort of thing. I just don't see what all the fuss was about. Certainly for mag sorc and nightblade, not worth a gear slot. Maybe good for stamina tunes in the Arena like NB that struggle with heals, but thats about all I can think of.
I'm actually planning on running it with Crit Surge on my mag sorc. Getting the double healing procs off damage done is pretty strong. I use Illambris and more often than not, the monster set proc is wasted when enemies move out of the way or it procs on a random straggler away from what I want it to proc on. Since, on my mag sorc, I am already built to solo things without needing a healer and healing whenever I do crit damage, the extra source of healing is going to be really nice and add an extra cushion of survivability.
Plus, I really like the idea of a gear setup that can function competitively in both PVP and PVE. And I am planning on building around the survivability the ring provides to put together a gear setup that can work in either environment with only a few skill changes for PVP areas.1 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Am I missing something? I admittedly did not get on PTS this go round, but heard about how OP this ring is. Just ran VMA with it today on my sorc. I was not that impressed to be honest. Not sure its worth a slot when I can get way more healing from crit surge. Not saying its not a nice heal, but I am not seeing the OP'ness that was described. LOL
Now what they should do, revert Thrassian to launch and restrict that to solo play. Make VMA fun again. This was my first run post Thrassian or the Asylum staff (pre nerf). Boring...
The Ring is basicallly Crit Surge for all the classes, but you lose a Monster Set.
It is still good, but nowhere near as OP as people say when they read the tooltips.
Everyone sees Alcast doing it and thing everyone will get the same healing output... As if everyone in this game had buff uptime and light attack weave as good as Alcast.
If you can't keep you dots and buffs up consistently, the healing is not that great.
Plus, it won't save you from one shots, mechanics or phases without stuff to hit.
I like this ring a lot and I don't think it is overpowered.
@Calm_Fury
It is far weaker than crit surge based on my testing. I may not be Alcast, but my light Attack ratio is north of 9.0 and I assure you, my dots are all up. I specifically tested for VMA, where I have double digit Flawless conquerors, and run every burn strat in the arena. LOL.
I did see the alcast video where he basically said it was game breakingly OP. I am guessing something has changed since that video was posted, because it in no way is. Admittedly, I don't really care. If it was that OP, it would be bad for the game and would diminish flawless titles and that sort of thing. I just don't see what all the fuss was about. Certainly for mag sorc and nightblade, not worth a gear slot. Maybe good for stamina tunes in the Arena like NB that struggle with heals, but thats about all I can think of.
It got nerfed twice since the first Alcast video. He is still saying it is OP, but they decreased the healing a few times in the PTS.
I also have it and tested it on vMA. And I agree. It is good and I'll be using there, but it is not that faceroll that people say without testing.
2 -
MirandaSharp✭✭✭✭Plus, I really like the idea of a gear setup that can function competitively in both PVP and PVE. And I am planning on building around the survivability the ring provides to put together a gear setup that can work in either environment with only a few skill changes for PVP areas.
-Oh, yes! I didn't even contemplate PvP, but I can see how this ring will make a big difference there...0