Thews of the harbinger needs a cool down

Fawn4287

This set either needs to reflect a percentage of the attackers health (and not the 110k necro goliath wearing it) or have a 3-5 second cooldown, no one who is aware of how it works is attacking it directly, however when a group balls up on one its just a massive counter to actually attacking the group and its not like grouping isn’t strong enough already. When bombing I have seen my entire recap of nothing but thews of the harbinger procced by VD Procs and its not as though I’m trying to say I shouldn’t be dying but to die from something as mundane is this is just terrible, high health stacking tanks were already doing the best after the healing nerfs and to buff a set thats only useful for them was not a good move.

geonsocal

wait, so are you saying high health necromancers are slotting thews of the harbinger and viscious death and then holding block during their goliath ult?

Dunning_Kruger

Needs CD for sure

YandereGirlfriend

It's amusing because this set was total dumpster fodder before its 2X buffs over the last few patch cycles.

And, of course, the advent of Malacath's.

Can't wait to see what sort of awful Threws x New 10% Damage Reflect Set builds are unleashed next patch.

Truly it is the most mindless playstyle.

ccfeeling

I think better limited some sets for pvper , maybe they should wear the same sets and fight each other .

What could Thews of the harbinger do in PVE ?

ImSoPro

ccfeeling wrote: »

I think better limited some sets for pvper , maybe they should wear the same sets and fight each other .

What could Thews of the harbinger do in PVE ?

Nothing except for burning boss HP down faster. Every set isn’t meant for both PVE and PVP. Some sets are just PVE or vice versa. I think the trick to fighting a thews wearer is just overwhelming numbers or in a small scale setting me and a BGs team had success just stunning and then burning him down making him use resources to heal so he couldn’t keep block up. It took all 4 of us though, anytime we’d all die and come out the spawn together we’d roll him. 1v1 idek how I would win. Anytime we were 1v1 I ended up breaking off to fight someone else. So I think it does need a cool down for sure just to create a window of vulnerability.

jaws343

geonsocal wrote: »

wait, so are you saying high health necromancers are slotting thews of the harbinger and viscious death and then holding block during their goliath ult?

I think it is that the health tank is standing in the middle of a bunch of players who are exploding with VD procs and all of that proc damage from VD is hitting the tank and reflecting back on the bomber.

Draevik

Fawn4287 wrote: »

This set either needs to reflect a percentage of the attackers health (and not the 110k necro goliath wearing it) or have a 3-5 second cooldown, no one who is aware of how it works is attacking it directly, however when a group balls up on one its just a massive counter to actually attacking the group and its not like grouping isn’t strong enough already. When bombing I have seen my entire recap of nothing but thews of the harbinger procced by VD Procs and its not as though I’m trying to say I shouldn’t be dying but to die from something as mundane is this is just terrible, high health stacking tanks were already doing the best after the healing nerfs and to buff a set thats only useful for them was not a good move.

So you are mad because a strong PROC like Vicious Death that is triggered from killing someone... is causing you to get hit by another small damage PROC that requires the user to block...

My takeaway from this. If you are attacking a single person VD is not going to trigger. If it was a single target and your whole group couldn't kill him because of this, perhaps he did that as his defense against being outnumbered?

This means you had killed a bunch of other people near said TotH. And then VD triggered a chain reaction of killing people and you got hit by what 10-20 TotH reflected VDs??? That means you had to have killed a ton of people to get hit that many times, or you continued attacking and wondered how you died?

TotH is the easiest damage proc to avoid. I suggest if you run into someone using it, take these steps.

1. Turn around
2. Leave fight
3. Accept that you cannot kill everyone.

TotH is perfectly fine, it simply prevents you from killing every target. As it only punishes people who relentlessly attack.

Taleof2Cities

Draevik wrote: »

TotH is the easiest damage proc to avoid. I suggest if you run into someone using it, take these steps.

1. Turn around
2. Leave fight
3. Accept that you cannot kill everyone.

TotH is perfectly fine, it simply prevents you from killing every target. As it only punishes people who relentlessly attack.

Ranged attacks are also effective against this sort of build ... since you're not in the radius of the VD proc.

I don't think Thews needs a cooldown, though. Players should be smart about the counters to it.

Draevik

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

TotH is the easiest damage proc to avoid. I suggest if you run into someone using it, take these steps.

1. Turn around
2. Leave fight
3. Accept that you cannot kill everyone.

TotH is perfectly fine, it simply prevents you from killing every target. As it only punishes people who relentlessly attack.

Ranged attacks are also effective against this sort of build ... since you're not in the radius of the VD proc.

Hmm? TotH reflects all incoming damage back to the original attacker regardless of range as far as I i know. This set doesn't reflect ALL incoming damage back to everyone involved. IE Player X hits 7 times, gets hit 7 times. Player Y hits 6 times, gets hit 6 times. If it reflected all damage to everyone involved it would be outrageously overpowered for all content.

jaws343

Draevik wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

This set either needs to reflect a percentage of the attackers health (and not the 110k necro goliath wearing it) or have a 3-5 second cooldown, no one who is aware of how it works is attacking it directly, however when a group balls up on one its just a massive counter to actually attacking the group and its not like grouping isn’t strong enough already. When bombing I have seen my entire recap of nothing but thews of the harbinger procced by VD Procs and its not as though I’m trying to say I shouldn’t be dying but to die from something as mundane is this is just terrible, high health stacking tanks were already doing the best after the healing nerfs and to buff a set thats only useful for them was not a good move.

So you are mad because a strong PROC like Vicious Death that is triggered from killing someone... is causing you to get hit by another small damage PROC that requires the user to block...

My takeaway from this. If you are attacking a single person VD is not going to trigger. If it was a single target and your whole group couldn't kill him because of this, perhaps he did that as his defense against being outnumbered?

This means you had killed a bunch of other people near said TotH. And then VD triggered a chain reaction of killing people and you got hit by what 10-20 TotH reflected VDs??? That means you had to have killed a ton of people to get hit that many times, or you continued attacking and wondered how you died?

TotH is the easiest damage proc to avoid. I suggest if you run into someone using it, take these steps.

1. Turn around
2. Leave fight
3. Accept that you cannot kill everyone.

TotH is perfectly fine, it simply prevents you from killing every target. As it only punishes people who relentlessly attack.

Let's say there were 10 players around the Hews tank and the tank was at 50K health. So every attack the tank takes dishes out 3.5K damage to the attacker.

So a VD bomb on a nightblade usually consists of Proxy Det and Soul Tether at a minimum and maybe Sap Essence to finish off, with Proxy det.

So, before even killing a single person around that Hew tank, the bomber jumps in and fires off 3 AOE skills that all reflect back 3.5K damage from hitting the tank. So already, that is 10.5K damage. No, let's say you manage to kill the 10 other players around that tank, that is another 3.5K damage per person from VD procs. So you are looking at another 35K damage on top of the 10.5K damage.

So 45-46K damage in a matter of seconds. Not sure the interacting with Battle Spirit and the set, but cutting that in half puts it as 22K or so damage in seconds from a guy holding block and literally zero counterplay for the attacker.

Draevik

So you are saying that a NB which can escape any encounter if well played. Should have no counter to their bomb build that can nearly instantly kill multiple people or groups at once??? I am confused. You are complaining about one proc when you are literally instantly killing MULTIPLE people with a chain of procs.

So one dude that you didn't kill is blocking and reflected thar much damage back at you after you just easily killed 10 other players nearly instantly??? And you don't want to die Am i really reading this correctly???

Ok then. Lets talk about Vicious Death and how it should have a cooldown because you can kill 10+ people with the press of 3 buttons. Which takes LESS resources and only slightly more effort than holding block...

Qbiken

It definitely needs a cooldown, can´t do more than agree.

sharquez

Thews is fine. Maybe look at your health bar more often?

1. Turn around
2. Leave fight
3. Accept that you cannot kill everyone.

Perfect advice for dealing with it.

jaws343

Draevik wrote: »

So you are saying that a NB which can escape any encounter if well played. Should have no counter to their bomb build that can nearly instantly kill multiple people or groups at once??? I am confused. You are complaining about one proc when you are literally instantly killing MULTIPLE people with a chain of procs.

So one dude that you didn't kill is blocking and reflected thar much damage back at you after you just easily killed 10 other players nearly instantly??? And you don't want to die Am i really reading this correctly???

Ok then. Lets talk about Vicious Death and how it should have a cooldown because you can kill 10+ people with the press of 3 buttons. Which takes LESS resources and only slightly more effort than holding block...

Yeah, maybe VD should be looked at too. Maybe all proc sets should be drastically reduced in power and effectiveness because they are ridiculously overpowered. Thanks for agreeing.

Vevvev

Whenever I encounter these builds I fossilize them as often as I can and pray I have enough allies to end them with the opening I provided. Tanky builds that do nothing but block all day are more of a nuisance than anything else.

Draevik

jaws343 wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

So you are saying that a NB which can escape any encounter if well played. Should have no counter to their bomb build that can nearly instantly kill multiple people or groups at once??? I am confused. You are complaining about one proc when you are literally instantly killing MULTIPLE people with a chain of procs.

So one dude that you didn't kill is blocking and reflected thar much damage back at you after you just easily killed 10 other players nearly instantly??? And you don't want to die Am i really reading this correctly???

Ok then. Lets talk about Vicious Death and how it should have a cooldown because you can kill 10+ people with the press of 3 buttons. Which takes LESS resources and only slightly more effort than holding block...

Yeah, maybe VD should be looked at too. Maybe all proc sets should be drastically reduced in power and effectiveness because they are ridiculously overpowered. Thanks for agreeing.

I don't agree with your assessment about Thews at all. Every single thews user I have fought i simply walk away from. Simple.

Thews is ONLY powerful if the ATTACKER decides to kill themselves on the proc. In my opinion it is rhe best defensive set in PVP because it deters people from continuing to attack. But guess what there is a HUGE drawback they have to spec for a ton of health, thus lowering their active damage drastically. If they are able to do damage at that point it is because of the overtuned Malacath band. But guess what their resources will still be limited because of low stam.

Most other damage proc sets especially VD, VS, UT, are far too overtuned. Blocking requires a lot of stamina especially in no-cp. Those other procs require you to just do what you would do to get kills, attack and kill.

ealdwin

There are quite a few problems with proc sets in the current meta, and have been expertly highlighted by other players who can go into them in much better depth than I will be able to. A lot of the issues boil down to the following:

(A) Multiple procs can be applied in a single second
(B) Procs providing more damage in a single second than pure stat builds add to any ability
(C) Procs being able to stack with Malacath

No one is really arguing against the existence of proc sets, but rather against their current oppressive potential, especially in regard to no-cp. In my opinion, proc sets are best when used to help support a specific build idea. For instance, Vicious Death (since it has been brought up) is best used on bomb builds, as its proc conditions and the proc itself helps to support and flesh out the build, but would be less useful on other builds (such as single target ganks). Proc sets should serve a purpose in helping to support a certain type of build and fulfill a purpose or help add fun to a unique build, rather than being the staple for nearly all builds. This is the issue currently with Sheer Venom. Sheer Venom's poison damage proc with execute mechanic makes it too generic. Unlike VD, it serves all builds equally. SV will find the same use on a gank Stamblade as it will on a high health Stamcro. (I bring up SV because it is another widely discussed set).

The question that should be asked of all proc sets is:
"What purpose is this set meant to serve, and how can it fulfill that purpose without being overpowered/overused?"

Vicious Death for instance is meant to serve as a bomb set that is meant to help support a build that takes advantage of large groups that are close together, and has a proc condition and a proc that help achieve that.

So, now we come to Thews of the Harbinger. What purpose is this set meant to serve, and how could it be adjusted to keep that purpose? Based on the proc, it would seem that the intent of the set is to give high health builds a defense mechanic that encourages foes to back up and give the wearer space in order to either go on the offense or escape. It's meant to be a thorn in the side that forces an enemy to reconsider their current plan of attack.

A cooldown on the proc might negate the purpose of this set, considering how prevalent blocking is in pvp as a mechanic. A better solution might be to decrease the damage down from 7% to a number between 3-5%. A number that still rewards building for high health, and serves the purpose of a defensive thorn, but wouldn't be as oppressive, especially when combined with sets such as Unfathomable Darkness.

ImSoPro

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

TotH is the easiest damage proc to avoid. I suggest if you run into someone using it, take these steps.

1. Turn around
2. Leave fight
3. Accept that you cannot kill everyone.

TotH is perfectly fine, it simply prevents you from killing every target. As it only punishes people who relentlessly attack.

Ranged attacks are also effective against this sort of build ... since you're not in the radius of the VD proc.

I don't think Thews needs a cooldown, though. Players should be smart about the counters to it.

And what are the counters to it? Because I can tell you ranged attacks are most definitely not a counter.

YandereGirlfriend

I think you could implement a kiss-curse on this set and otherwise leave it as-is.

Increase the cost of block by ~35% while wearing it and wearers would actually have to choose when to block instead of resorting to the mindless perma-block playstyle.

Merforum

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I think you could implement a kiss-curse on this set and otherwise leave it as-is.

Increase the cost of block by ~35% while wearing it and wearers would actually have to choose when to block instead of resorting to the mindless perma-block playstyle.

A better answer would be to only allow an attack to happen only 1 time per second, then Thews would only do damage once per second too. BTW blocking already costs enough to eliminate perma-blocking.

I actually know the real answer to all this, just have one class, one race, one set of skills (like werewolf) and the same gear in PVP then all the complaints about balance would end and PVP would be based on 'skill' that lots of people keep telling everyone about.

Fawn4287

Draevik wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

This set either needs to reflect a percentage of the attackers health (and not the 110k necro goliath wearing it) or have a 3-5 second cooldown, no one who is aware of how it works is attacking it directly, however when a group balls up on one its just a massive counter to actually attacking the group and its not like grouping isn’t strong enough already. When bombing I have seen my entire recap of nothing but thews of the harbinger procced by VD Procs and its not as though I’m trying to say I shouldn’t be dying but to die from something as mundane is this is just terrible, high health stacking tanks were already doing the best after the healing nerfs and to buff a set thats only useful for them was not a good move.

So you are mad because a strong PROC like Vicious Death that is triggered from killing someone... is causing you to get hit by another small damage PROC that requires the user to block...

My takeaway from this. If you are attacking a single person VD is not going to trigger. If it was a single target and your whole group couldn't kill him because of this, perhaps he did that as his defense against being outnumbered?

This means you had killed a bunch of other people near said TotH. And then VD triggered a chain reaction of killing people and you got hit by what 10-20 TotH reflected VDs??? That means you had to have killed a ton of people to get hit that many times, or you continued attacking and wondered how you died?

TotH is the easiest damage proc to avoid. I suggest if you run into someone using it, take these steps.

1. Turn around
2. Leave fight
3. Accept that you cannot kill everyone.

TotH is perfectly fine, it simply prevents you from killing every target. As it only punishes people who relentlessly attack.

Fighting and killing people whilst outnumbered is is supposed to be a thing that incredibly difficult and requires great skill that ZOS has been for the last 18 months making it drastically harder and harder, then introduces a proc set buffing ring and buffs proc sets whilst and allows someone to literally reflective damage block groups to death, removing all skill there is to outnumbered fighting.

> Accept that you cannot kill everyone.

I don’t know what it is with people that play this game and being so complacent with balance and builds that allow this to even be a thing, not being able to kill someone in other games usually requires exploits or hacks but is just a sad reality of this game. I can’t envision that concept in any other game and the community being fine with it, but I suppose its not really, PvP is at all time low number of players with even the sewer event barely having capped campaigns for a few days, which I suspect the upcoming mid year mayhem will mirror. There might be an army of people who love and accept no thumb proc damage centric tank gameplay on the forums, however the abysmal declining PvP numbers show how players really feel.

YandereGirlfriend

@Merforum I think that it is better to preserve the spirit of the set for use in for high-leverage situations while still ensuring that one can only make use of that ability sparingly. We already have the precedent for increased Block Cost with the new Aetherial Ascension set.

Merforum

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Merforum I think that it is better to preserve the spirit of the set for use in for high-leverage situations while still ensuring that one can only make use of that ability sparingly. We already have the precedent for increased Block Cost with the new Aetherial Ascension set.

The spirit of the set is to allow people to reflect damage, so tanky toons aren't just pin cushions for button smashers. And it is really good the way it is currently.

Aetherial Ascension is a complete garbage set and no one is going to use it when you can get more Armor from other sets without any insane drawback. On Mythics the negative effects seem justified. But on a 5 piece sets the benefits need to be much stronger if they will be having such negatives. Radiant Bastion is more the direction hopefully they will be going.

1vXing and killing literally every kind of build in 2 seconds is extremely toxic to any game and moving away from that is very good direction. For Profit, getting more people, and just making the game more fun. And I don't require great game immersion but having tanks that can literally tank ALL content in PVE then go to PVP and get killed in 4 seconds is broken and should have been fixed long ago.

Anything that makes this less possible is great addition to the game. If they want to 'fix' something it would be to massively reduce crit damage base value, fix anim cancelling exploits (by simply making the animation exactly the same time as the skill and unable to be cancelled OR eliminate cast time/channel skills and make them all instant with corresponding reduction of damage/effects). That way the game would still be fast paced but exploiting bugs wouldn't be rewarded.

paulsimonps

I personally use Harbringer, still die, still have problems killing some people. Do note that any attack that cannot be blocked will go right past this set, and stunning me and draining my resources will eventually wear me down. Nobodies resources are unlimited. I'm not an unkillable walking deathbringer. To be fair, anyone that keeps attacking me the wrong way I look down upon. I praise those that get what I'm doing, some even alter their approach and then manage to kill me, which is even more impressive since they had the ability to adapt. I used to play a build back in the day that was designed to reflect any and all projectiles as much as I could. And the amount of magicka people that killed themselves on me... too many, but there would always be those that figured out that many of their other attacks could not be reflected and then I was the goner, adapting is the key. There are counterplays here.

Fawn4287

Merforum wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Merforum I think that it is better to preserve the spirit of the set for use in for high-leverage situations while still ensuring that one can only make use of that ability sparingly. We already have the precedent for increased Block Cost with the new Aetherial Ascension set.

The spirit of the set is to allow people to reflect damage, so tanky toons aren't just pin cushions for button smashers. And it is really good the way it is currently.

Aetherial Ascension is a complete garbage set and no one is going to use it when you can get more Armor from other sets without any insane drawback. On Mythics the negative effects seem justified. But on a 5 piece sets the benefits need to be much stronger if they will be having such negatives. Radiant Bastion is more the direction hopefully they will be going.

1vXing and killing literally every kind of build in 2 seconds is extremely toxic to any game and moving away from that is very good direction. For Profit, getting more people, and just making the game more fun. And I don't require great game immersion but having tanks that can literally tank ALL content in PVE then go to PVP and get killed in 4 seconds is broken and should have been fixed long ago.

Anything that makes this less possible is great addition to the game. If they want to 'fix' something it would be to massively reduce crit damage base value, fix anim cancelling exploits (by simply making the animation exactly the same time as the skill and unable to be cancelled OR eliminate cast time/channel skills and make them all instant with corresponding reduction of damage/effects). That way the game would still be fast paced but exploiting bugs wouldn't be rewarded.

No, good players killing bad players is how all games work, even games like fall guys which include as much randomness as possible still inevitably had players exponentially better than others. I can’t believe people complain about ani canceling and defending proc sets like thews, why not just go watch a stream if you want an experience so uninvolved, you may as well just watch someone else play? Why even have PvP if you are going to sap as much skill from it as possible with sets like these? This meta currently is dominated by the most thumbless builds in years of thews tanks and alessian wwolves, the most cheesy, boring and dead update in years.

ZOS_ConnorG

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Draevik

Perhaps, if this Thews proc kills people often a different approach during combat is necessary. Nearly everyone that runs Thews has no damage output of their own. They rely on the aggressor to kill themselves. My defense against Thews is leaving the fight, they can't do anything to me, I can't do anything to them.

I for one am glad it exists because it deters instant kill builds, especially the ones that can kill multiple people without them having a chance to react at all. After the first few times of instantly dying to Vicious Death I decided I would do something about it and increased health, and armor.

Over time I adapted. Thews is just the next evolution of defense.

Merforum

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Merforum I think that it is better to preserve the spirit of the set for use in for high-leverage situations while still ensuring that one can only make use of that ability sparingly. We already have the precedent for increased Block Cost with the new Aetherial Ascension set.

The spirit of the set is to allow people to reflect damage, so tanky toons aren't just pin cushions for button smashers. And it is really good the way it is currently.

Aetherial Ascension is a complete garbage set and no one is going to use it when you can get more Armor from other sets without any insane drawback. On Mythics the negative effects seem justified. But on a 5 piece sets the benefits need to be much stronger if they will be having such negatives. Radiant Bastion is more the direction hopefully they will be going.

1vXing and killing literally every kind of build in 2 seconds is extremely toxic to any game and moving away from that is very good direction. For Profit, getting more people, and just making the game more fun. And I don't require great game immersion but having tanks that can literally tank ALL content in PVE then go to PVP and get killed in 4 seconds is broken and should have been fixed long ago.

Anything that makes this less possible is great addition to the game. If they want to 'fix' something it would be to massively reduce crit damage base value, fix anim cancelling exploits (by simply making the animation exactly the same time as the skill and unable to be cancelled OR eliminate cast time/channel skills and make them all instant with corresponding reduction of damage/effects). That way the game would still be fast paced but exploiting bugs wouldn't be rewarded.

No, good players killing bad players is how all games work, even games like fall guys which include as much randomness as possible still inevitably had players exponentially better than others. I can’t believe people complain about ani canceling and defending proc sets like thews, why not just go watch a stream if you want an experience so uninvolved, you may as well just watch someone else play? Why even have PvP if you are going to sap as much skill from it as possible with sets like these? This meta currently is dominated by the most thumbless builds in years of thews tanks and alessian wwolves, the most cheesy, boring and dead update in years.

I don't know if you realized this but people who constantly refer to themselves as 'good' players and everyone else as bad, lazy, unskilled, etc is one of the reasons this game is so toxic. An actual 'good' player would learn to adapt and overcome different play styles not continuously complain that they can't complete.

BTW if someone played PVE for years they are NOT beginner or bad, and learning PVP style of play is NOT hard. All of these comments boil down to one thing, there are a handful for PVPers who want to be able to push 4 buttons in 1 second and kill any player no matter what build they have, WHILE at the same time even if 4+ other players are hitting them with 2 buttons per second they can not be killed. Is that skill, is that fun or is that toxic?

You have to ask yourself why after all these years haven't these 'good' players used the duel function to hold events where they fight other 'good' players.That would actually be awesome. Zmax or the players themselves could have tournaments and do stuff like other games. Why has that not happened?

Charon_on_Vacation

imagine killing yourself and complaining about it..

Joinovikova

Draevik wrote: »

Perhaps, if this Thews proc kills people often a different approach during combat is necessary. Nearly everyone that runs Thews has no damage output of their own. They rely on the aggressor to kill themselves. My defense against Thews is leaving the fight, they can't do anything to me, I can't do anything to them.

I for one am glad it exists because it deters instant kill builds, especially the ones that can kill multiple people without them having a chance to react at all. After the first few times of instantly dying to Vicious Death I decided I would do something about it and increased health, and armor.

Over time I adapted. Thews is just the next evolution of defense.

problem of this sets is mainly in BGs any non deathmatch is super boring when u get these opponents