Thews of the harbinger needs a cool down

ealdwin

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I think you could implement a kiss-curse on this set and otherwise leave it as-is.

Increase the cost of block by ~35% while wearing it and wearers would actually have to choose when to block instead of resorting to the mindless perma-block playstyle.

Agreed. This would be a nice solution that would keep the utility and the purpose of the set (adding offense to blocking) while discouraging the abuse of the set (perma-blocking) especially in objective based battlegrounds.

Draevik

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

imagine killing yourself and complaining about it..

Exactly, I have been there, it is embarrassing and humbling I killed myself on a few different thews players until I recognized what was happening. I haven't died since though *fingers crossed*, I just shrug and go fight someone else.

One time I actually followed the guy and kept stunning, immobilizing and snaring him. I slotted a pull and toyed with him for a few minutes. He sent me a message saying he was laughing pretty hard about what I was doing and it was the best counter to his build he has seen.

NordSwordnBoard

Thews of the Harbinger: The non thinking person's set to counter the non thinking opponent.

itscompton

Like I told Johnny Dangerously "Thews of Harbinger killed me once....just once".

Actually is was about three times before I realized what was happening. Now I just slow my attacks a bit and wait for these builds to go down to group pressure.
It is a bit frustrating having almost all DD abilities on my glass cannon MagNB with basically nothing I can use on them without hurting myself more than I hurt them but in the end it's like any other tank build, a waste of time and resources to attack solo. And like all other tanks they can't really hurt me either as long as I don't attack them.
I use my NB to bomb and I think its fair to have a sort of poison pill build mixed into groups that might kill me for killing too many of them with one shot.
I just think it's crazy they took away almost all the active skill options that reflected damage but then put in a set like this. Using DK wings or Templar's total dark required the use of resources and good timing but were still considered unfair and OP and got changed.

Fawn4287

Merforum wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Merforum I think that it is better to preserve the spirit of the set for use in for high-leverage situations while still ensuring that one can only make use of that ability sparingly. We already have the precedent for increased Block Cost with the new Aetherial Ascension set.

The spirit of the set is to allow people to reflect damage, so tanky toons aren't just pin cushions for button smashers. And it is really good the way it is currently.

Aetherial Ascension is a complete garbage set and no one is going to use it when you can get more Armor from other sets without any insane drawback. On Mythics the negative effects seem justified. But on a 5 piece sets the benefits need to be much stronger if they will be having such negatives. Radiant Bastion is more the direction hopefully they will be going.

1vXing and killing literally every kind of build in 2 seconds is extremely toxic to any game and moving away from that is very good direction. For Profit, getting more people, and just making the game more fun. And I don't require great game immersion but having tanks that can literally tank ALL content in PVE then go to PVP and get killed in 4 seconds is broken and should have been fixed long ago.

Anything that makes this less possible is great addition to the game. If they want to 'fix' something it would be to massively reduce crit damage base value, fix anim cancelling exploits (by simply making the animation exactly the same time as the skill and unable to be cancelled OR eliminate cast time/channel skills and make them all instant with corresponding reduction of damage/effects). That way the game would still be fast paced but exploiting bugs wouldn't be rewarded.

No, good players killing bad players is how all games work, even games like fall guys which include as much randomness as possible still inevitably had players exponentially better than others. I can’t believe people complain about ani canceling and defending proc sets like thews, why not just go watch a stream if you want an experience so uninvolved, you may as well just watch someone else play? Why even have PvP if you are going to sap as much skill from it as possible with sets like these? This meta currently is dominated by the most thumbless builds in years of thews tanks and alessian wwolves, the most cheesy, boring and dead update in years.

I don't know if you realized this but people who constantly refer to themselves as 'good' players and everyone else as bad, lazy, unskilled, etc is one of the reasons this game is so toxic. An actual 'good' player would learn to adapt and overcome different play styles not continuously complain that they can't complete.

BTW if someone played PVE for years they are NOT beginner or bad, and learning PVP style of play is NOT hard. All of these comments boil down to one thing, there are a handful for PVPers who want to be able to push 4 buttons in 1 second and kill any player no matter what build they have, WHILE at the same time even if 4+ other players are hitting them with 2 buttons per second they can not be killed. Is that skill, is that fun or is that toxic?

You have to ask yourself why after all these years haven't these 'good' players used the duel function to hold events where they fight other 'good' players.That would actually be awesome. Zmax or the players themselves could have tournaments and do stuff like other games. Why has that not happened?

Over the years this game has evolved from people running around with 17-22k health and absolutely everyone being able to burst each other down, with landing a combo basically being able to kill other players, so to watch health pools effectively double with resto and bow be replaced by sword and board you would be pretty unhappy with the direction the game has headed. Performance combined with this is why a large proportion of good players have left, then to die in the sewers to a group comprised of 5 42k health wwolves and a thews tank would drive away even the best of players.

Draevik

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Merforum I think that it is better to preserve the spirit of the set for use in for high-leverage situations while still ensuring that one can only make use of that ability sparingly. We already have the precedent for increased Block Cost with the new Aetherial Ascension set.

The spirit of the set is to allow people to reflect damage, so tanky toons aren't just pin cushions for button smashers. And it is really good the way it is currently.

Aetherial Ascension is a complete garbage set and no one is going to use it when you can get more Armor from other sets without any insane drawback. On Mythics the negative effects seem justified. But on a 5 piece sets the benefits need to be much stronger if they will be having such negatives. Radiant Bastion is more the direction hopefully they will be going.

1vXing and killing literally every kind of build in 2 seconds is extremely toxic to any game and moving away from that is very good direction. For Profit, getting more people, and just making the game more fun. And I don't require great game immersion but having tanks that can literally tank ALL content in PVE then go to PVP and get killed in 4 seconds is broken and should have been fixed long ago.

Anything that makes this less possible is great addition to the game. If they want to 'fix' something it would be to massively reduce crit damage base value, fix anim cancelling exploits (by simply making the animation exactly the same time as the skill and unable to be cancelled OR eliminate cast time/channel skills and make them all instant with corresponding reduction of damage/effects). That way the game would still be fast paced but exploiting bugs wouldn't be rewarded.

No, good players killing bad players is how all games work, even games like fall guys which include as much randomness as possible still inevitably had players exponentially better than others. I can’t believe people complain about ani canceling and defending proc sets like thews, why not just go watch a stream if you want an experience so uninvolved, you may as well just watch someone else play? Why even have PvP if you are going to sap as much skill from it as possible with sets like these? This meta currently is dominated by the most thumbless builds in years of thews tanks and alessian wwolves, the most cheesy, boring and dead update in years.

I don't know if you realized this but people who constantly refer to themselves as 'good' players and everyone else as bad, lazy, unskilled, etc is one of the reasons this game is so toxic. An actual 'good' player would learn to adapt and overcome different play styles not continuously complain that they can't complete.

BTW if someone played PVE for years they are NOT beginner or bad, and learning PVP style of play is NOT hard. All of these comments boil down to one thing, there are a handful for PVPers who want to be able to push 4 buttons in 1 second and kill any player no matter what build they have, WHILE at the same time even if 4+ other players are hitting them with 2 buttons per second they can not be killed. Is that skill, is that fun or is that toxic?

You have to ask yourself why after all these years haven't these 'good' players used the duel function to hold events where they fight other 'good' players.That would actually be awesome. Zmax or the players themselves could have tournaments and do stuff like other games. Why has that not happened?

Over the years this game has evolved from people running around with 17-22k health and absolutely everyone being able to burst each other down, with landing a combo basically being able to kill other players, so to watch health pools effectively double with resto and bow be replaced by sword and board you would be pretty unhappy with the direction the game has headed. Performance combined with this is why a large proportion of good players have left, then to die in the sewers to a group comprised of 5 42k health wwolves and a thews tank would drive away even the best of players.

No one enjoys losing in PVP, but that outcome is to be expected. No shame in dying when outnumbered, especially 6 vs 1 as that is usually certain death.

To be fair I (and most people) wouldn't go against 6 players at once. If ANY class/gear combination enabled someone to actively kill 6 decent players at once that would be a huge balance issue. Which I would hope that the ESO dev team would address immediately.

Merforum

Joinovikova wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

Perhaps, if this Thews proc kills people often a different approach during combat is necessary. Nearly everyone that runs Thews has no damage output of their own. They rely on the aggressor to kill themselves. My defense against Thews is leaving the fight, they can't do anything to me, I can't do anything to them.

I for one am glad it exists because it deters instant kill builds, especially the ones that can kill multiple people without them having a chance to react at all. After the first few times of instantly dying to Vicious Death I decided I would do something about it and increased health, and armor.

Over time I adapted. Thews is just the next evolution of defense.

problem of this sets is mainly in BGs any non deathmatch is super boring when u get these opponents

I don't understand your comment, there are objectives besides just killing people in non deathmatch where someone wearing Thews can just be ignored. Even if they grab the chaos ball everyone will be killing them and they won't last long.

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Merforum I think that it is better to preserve the spirit of the set for use in for high-leverage situations while still ensuring that one can only make use of that ability sparingly. We already have the precedent for increased Block Cost with the new Aetherial Ascension set.

The spirit of the set is to allow people to reflect damage, so tanky toons aren't just pin cushions for button smashers. And it is really good the way it is currently.

Aetherial Ascension is a complete garbage set and no one is going to use it when you can get more Armor from other sets without any insane drawback. On Mythics the negative effects seem justified. But on a 5 piece sets the benefits need to be much stronger if they will be having such negatives. Radiant Bastion is more the direction hopefully they will be going.

1vXing and killing literally every kind of build in 2 seconds is extremely toxic to any game and moving away from that is very good direction. For Profit, getting more people, and just making the game more fun. And I don't require great game immersion but having tanks that can literally tank ALL content in PVE then go to PVP and get killed in 4 seconds is broken and should have been fixed long ago.

Anything that makes this less possible is great addition to the game. If they want to 'fix' something it would be to massively reduce crit damage base value, fix anim cancelling exploits (by simply making the animation exactly the same time as the skill and unable to be cancelled OR eliminate cast time/channel skills and make them all instant with corresponding reduction of damage/effects). That way the game would still be fast paced but exploiting bugs wouldn't be rewarded.

No, good players killing bad players is how all games work, even games like fall guys which include as much randomness as possible still inevitably had players exponentially better than others. I can’t believe people complain about ani canceling and defending proc sets like thews, why not just go watch a stream if you want an experience so uninvolved, you may as well just watch someone else play? Why even have PvP if you are going to sap as much skill from it as possible with sets like these? This meta currently is dominated by the most thumbless builds in years of thews tanks and alessian wwolves, the most cheesy, boring and dead update in years.

I don't know if you realized this but people who constantly refer to themselves as 'good' players and everyone else as bad, lazy, unskilled, etc is one of the reasons this game is so toxic. An actual 'good' player would learn to adapt and overcome different play styles not continuously complain that they can't complete.

BTW if someone played PVE for years they are NOT beginner or bad, and learning PVP style of play is NOT hard. All of these comments boil down to one thing, there are a handful for PVPers who want to be able to push 4 buttons in 1 second and kill any player no matter what build they have, WHILE at the same time even if 4+ other players are hitting them with 2 buttons per second they can not be killed. Is that skill, is that fun or is that toxic?

You have to ask yourself why after all these years haven't these 'good' players used the duel function to hold events where they fight other 'good' players.That would actually be awesome. Zmax or the players themselves could have tournaments and do stuff like other games. Why has that not happened?

Over the years this game has evolved from people running around with 17-22k health and absolutely everyone being able to burst each other down, with landing a combo basically being able to kill other players, so to watch health pools effectively double with resto and bow be replaced by sword and board you would be pretty unhappy with the direction the game has headed. Performance combined with this is why a large proportion of good players have left, then to die in the sewers to a group comprised of 5 42k health wwolves and a thews tank would drive away even the best of players.

See there you go calling these people 'good' players. Here's what happened and it is obvious, a handful of people have convinced a lot of people that being a 'glass cannon' is the only proper 'SKILLED' playstyle in PVP and any other playstyle is 'bad', 'lazy', 'cheesy'. And when everyone is a glass cannon the game boils down to whoever can do their combo the fastest wins. But all the people who bought into this stupidity are just making themselves easy targets for these 'good' players.

If having different playstyles (tanky, WW, healbot, well rounded, procers) and not being able to be ganked in 2 seconds has driven 'good' players away then were they really ever good players. Or just gankers who have been the most toxic aspect of the entire game. BTW a 4 player team like tank, healer, 2 dd who can complete every dungeon in the game should NOT be able to be beat by one guy in PVP over and over (this happened to me several times with a few PVE groups I had), that is a broken system and has been for a long time.

All these Nerfing complaints are totally hypocritical too. First a lot of proc sets had a high burst so Devs appeased all the whiners by making most of the DOTs. Now everyone is whining about too many DOTs. And some say just make stat/damage/crit stackers do more damage (I usually agree to make other things better to get balance) but the execute and crit is already way too high and 'bursty' the very thing they complained about with proc sets. Why is a massive burst from crit and execute OK but a tiny burst from proc set is evil.

BTW I have read build sites and seen vids from years ago and the Heavy armor use for PVP started long ago way before proc sets were a bad thing. As many others have pointed out these proc sets are actually a good addition to be able to kill super tanky and especially almost broken WW tanks. But I say don't nerf WW just leave the poison proc sets as counter. What needs to be nerfed is massive crit and execute damage and cancel exploiting channeled/cast time abilities like snipe/sweeps.

novemberhhh

Hey don't attack my playstyle. Holding block down with a piece of tape and going afk to make coffee is complex and engaging pvp.

Dunning_Kruger

novemberhhh wrote: »

Hey don't attack my playstyle. Holding block down with a piece of tape and going afk to make coffee is complex and engaging pvp.

We believe

Urzigurumash

How about this:

Thews of the Harbinger: When you block an attack, you deal damage to your attacker equal to X% of your Max Health. Each block generates a Stack, which increases the cost of block by X% but increases damage done by X%. At X Stacks, you gain Major Berserk, Major Breach, Major Vulnerability and Major Brittle for X seconds.

Urzigurumash

and then add to it "When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 22940 Flame Damage to all other enemies players in a 4 meter radius"

Now we're talkin

JayKwellen

Merforum wrote: »

@Merforum
See there you go calling these people 'good' players. Here's what happened and it is obvious, a handful of people have convinced a lot of people that being a 'glass cannon' is the only proper 'SKILLED' playstyle in PVP and any other playstyle is 'bad', 'lazy', 'cheesy'. And when everyone is a glass cannon the game boils down to whoever can do their combo the fastest wins. But all the people who bought into this stupidity are just making themselves easy targets for these 'good' players.

I'm not entirely sure who you're referring to here. If you look over the various popular builds as well as build advice from good players they'll all tell you almost the same thing -- a well-rounded PvP build requires a mix of all three: defense, burst, and sustain. While yes, certain builds will lean more into one than the other, but a balance between them is still required if you wish to do pretty much anything other than zerg surf. The only exception to this being gankers or gank-adjacent type builds, which are typically the only glass cannons you'll encounter.

Merforum wrote: »

BTW a 4 player team like tank, healer, 2 dd who can complete every dungeon in the game should NOT be able to be beat by one guy in PVP over and over (this happened to me several times with a few PVE groups I had), that is a broken system and has been for a long time.

Yes they absolutely should. You don't deserve to automatically win a fight just because you're numerically superior. If that was the case then skill would truly mean nothing, the only thing that would matter is numbers.

I've killed groups of people before, and my husband and I together have killed what I'm pretty sure was groups of PvErs before. Sad for them, but why should they have the expectation of automatic victory even if they can "complete every dungeon in the game'? The skillset for PvE is vastly different than PvP. The builds for PvE are vastly different than PvP. They are not the same, and while having the skillset in one lends itself to more easily learning the other, it doesn't mean you automatically know how to do it without experience and practice.

If I'm alone and taking on this dungeon group you mentioned, if they don't have proper PvP builds (no stuns, no impen, inappropriate PvP gear, no appropriate self heals, no defensive bar, no PvP burst combos, laying down stationary abilities like destro ults and lightning splashes and such) and don't understand the mechanics of PvP (setting up burst windows, coordinating burst as a group, funneling people into choke points, using LoS to break up attacks, separating large groups into smaller ones) why should they win just because they're their and have the numbers?

That's like saying I should be able to grab a random tank, healer, and dps from Cyrodiil and walking into vet Moon Hunter Keep and complete it without having an appropriate PvE build or learning the mechanics. Afterall, I've got the numbers and the roles, I deserve to win right?

Honestly, this makes me think this is what must have happened to you and your group, because I can guarantee you with absolute 100% certainty that a solid 4 man PvP group filled with competent PvP players with competent PvP builds (and I don't mean super skilled players either, literally just solidly good ones) isn't going to die to one person outside of maybe two very specific circumstances: They got beat up by someone comfortably at the top of the skill ceiling, or they got bombed unexpectedly. If neither of those two things took place, then the only other option is that they're simply not as good as they thought they were.

Merforum wrote: »

As many others have pointed out these proc sets are actually a good addition to be able to kill super tanky and especially almost broken WW tanks. But I say don't nerf WW just leave the poison proc sets as counter.

If these poison proc sets are a good addition to kill the metastasizing WW malignancy, then that's still a poor excuse because it only serves stamina characters. I don't blame you for forgetting that magicka PvP's too though, ZOS seems to do it with disturbing frequency.

Merforum wrote: »

What needs to be nerfed is massive crit and execute damage and cancel exploiting channeled/cast time abilities like snipe/sweeps.

No it doesn't. "Massive crits" aren't a problem if you're running the requisite 3k impen. If they are it means you're either choosing to run less than that, in which case you knew the risks, or you're getting hit so hard that the ~20% difference likely doesn't matter anyway and the outcome would probably be similar even if they didn't crit. Execute damage is the easiest of all to negate. You can either keep your healing up and not fall into execute, break LoS so you can't be executed, or roll dodge out of it. If you can't do any of those things it means you've lost the fight. This is PvP, it happens. Just take your execution with style and ride back out for a rematch.

BTW, animation canceling isn't an exploit.

Waffennacht

Thews doesnt need to be changed.

Its actually a great set that requires dedication of your whole build to make work.

I run into them a few times in BGs, I just walk on bye, I have 7 other targets usually; and guess what? Theyre a hell of a lot easier to kill

Firstmep

Merforum wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

Perhaps, if this Thews proc kills people often a different approach during combat is necessary. Nearly everyone that runs Thews has no damage output of their own. They rely on the aggressor to kill themselves. My defense against Thews is leaving the fight, they can't do anything to me, I can't do anything to them.

I for one am glad it exists because it deters instant kill builds, especially the ones that can kill multiple people without them having a chance to react at all. After the first few times of instantly dying to Vicious Death I decided I would do something about it and increased health, and armor.

Over time I adapted. Thews is just the next evolution of defense.

problem of this sets is mainly in BGs any non deathmatch is super boring when u get these opponents

I don't understand your comment, there are objectives besides just killing people in non deathmatch where someone wearing Thews can just be ignored. Even if they grab the chaos ball everyone will be killing them and they won't last long.

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Merforum I think that it is better to preserve the spirit of the set for use in for high-leverage situations while still ensuring that one can only make use of that ability sparingly. We already have the precedent for increased Block Cost with the new Aetherial Ascension set.

The spirit of the set is to allow people to reflect damage, so tanky toons aren't just pin cushions for button smashers. And it is really good the way it is currently.

Aetherial Ascension is a complete garbage set and no one is going to use it when you can get more Armor from other sets without any insane drawback. On Mythics the negative effects seem justified. But on a 5 piece sets the benefits need to be much stronger if they will be having such negatives. Radiant Bastion is more the direction hopefully they will be going.

1vXing and killing literally every kind of build in 2 seconds is extremely toxic to any game and moving away from that is very good direction. For Profit, getting more people, and just making the game more fun. And I don't require great game immersion but having tanks that can literally tank ALL content in PVE then go to PVP and get killed in 4 seconds is broken and should have been fixed long ago.

Anything that makes this less possible is great addition to the game. If they want to 'fix' something it would be to massively reduce crit damage base value, fix anim cancelling exploits (by simply making the animation exactly the same time as the skill and unable to be cancelled OR eliminate cast time/channel skills and make them all instant with corresponding reduction of damage/effects). That way the game would still be fast paced but exploiting bugs wouldn't be rewarded.

No, good players killing bad players is how all games work, even games like fall guys which include as much randomness as possible still inevitably had players exponentially better than others. I can’t believe people complain about ani canceling and defending proc sets like thews, why not just go watch a stream if you want an experience so uninvolved, you may as well just watch someone else play? Why even have PvP if you are going to sap as much skill from it as possible with sets like these? This meta currently is dominated by the most thumbless builds in years of thews tanks and alessian wwolves, the most cheesy, boring and dead update in years.

I don't know if you realized this but people who constantly refer to themselves as 'good' players and everyone else as bad, lazy, unskilled, etc is one of the reasons this game is so toxic. An actual 'good' player would learn to adapt and overcome different play styles not continuously complain that they can't complete.

BTW if someone played PVE for years they are NOT beginner or bad, and learning PVP style of play is NOT hard. All of these comments boil down to one thing, there are a handful for PVPers who want to be able to push 4 buttons in 1 second and kill any player no matter what build they have, WHILE at the same time even if 4+ other players are hitting them with 2 buttons per second they can not be killed. Is that skill, is that fun or is that toxic?

You have to ask yourself why after all these years haven't these 'good' players used the duel function to hold events where they fight other 'good' players.That would actually be awesome. Zmax or the players themselves could have tournaments and do stuff like other games. Why has that not happened?

Over the years this game has evolved from people running around with 17-22k health and absolutely everyone being able to burst each other down, with landing a combo basically being able to kill other players, so to watch health pools effectively double with resto and bow be replaced by sword and board you would be pretty unhappy with the direction the game has headed. Performance combined with this is why a large proportion of good players have left, then to die in the sewers to a group comprised of 5 42k health wwolves and a thews tank would drive away even the best of players.

See there you go calling these people 'good' players. Here's what happened and it is obvious, a handful of people have convinced a lot of people that being a 'glass cannon' is the only proper 'SKILLED' playstyle in PVP and any other playstyle is 'bad', 'lazy', 'cheesy'. And when everyone is a glass cannon the game boils down to whoever can do their combo the fastest wins. But all the people who bought into this stupidity are just making themselves easy targets for these 'good' players.

If having different playstyles (tanky, WW, healbot, well rounded, procers) and not being able to be ganked in 2 seconds has driven 'good' players away then were they really ever good players. Or just gankers who have been the most toxic aspect of the entire game. BTW a 4 player team like tank, healer, 2 dd who can complete every dungeon in the game should NOT be able to be beat by one guy in PVP over and over (this happened to me several times with a few PVE groups I had), that is a broken system and has been for a long time.

All these Nerfing complaints are totally hypocritical too. First a lot of proc sets had a high burst so Devs appeased all the whiners by making most of the DOTs. Now everyone is whining about too many DOTs. And some say just make stat/damage/crit stackers do more damage (I usually agree to make other things better to get balance) but the execute and crit is already way too high and 'bursty' the very thing they complained about with proc sets. Why is a massive burst from crit and execute OK but a tiny burst from proc set is evil.

BTW I have read build sites and seen vids from years ago and the Heavy armor use for PVP started long ago way before proc sets were a bad thing. As many others have pointed out these proc sets are actually a good addition to be able to kill super tanky and especially almost broken WW tanks. But I say don't nerf WW just leave the poison proc sets as counter. What needs to be nerfed is massive crit and execute damage and cancel exploiting channeled/cast time abilities like snipe/sweeps.

My bow/bow necro(non proc, swamp raider/morag), that focuses on aoe bombing grps with Blastbones, acid spray and Colo was called cheesy cancer as well.
Go figure.
Apparently if you are not using sword and board and 2h on a Stam class your are cheesing, even tho playing non proc bow builds is far more challenging, than turtling behind a shield till you have ult.
As for harbinger, the main issue with the set, is that players that don't know about it kill themselves way too quick.
Definetly should be adjusted, blazing templars didn't have this much firepower in their prime, not to mention between meditate and shield ult it's easier to permablock than ever.

red_emu

Ever heard of stunning an opponent and draining their stamina till they can't block anymore?

Besides, out of goliath form, the ToH damage is pretty much laughable. If you can't see your health bar draining with each attack on a blocking player, that's on you.

We have bigger problems anyway. Like applying 3 proc dots with one light attack.

Merforum

JayKwellen wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

@Merforum
See there you go calling these people 'good' players. Here's what happened and it is obvious, a handful of people have convinced a lot of people that being a 'glass cannon' is the only proper 'SKILLED' playstyle in PVP and any other playstyle is 'bad', 'lazy', 'cheesy'. And when everyone is a glass cannon the game boils down to whoever can do their combo the fastest wins. But all the people who bought into this stupidity are just making themselves easy targets for these 'good' players.

I'm not entirely sure who you're referring to here. If you look over the various popular builds as well as build advice from good players they'll all tell you almost the same thing -- a well-rounded PvP build requires a mix of all three: defense, burst, and sustain. While yes, certain builds will lean more into one than the other, but a balance between them is still required if you wish to do pretty much anything other than zerg surf. The only exception to this being gankers or gank-adjacent type builds, which are typically the only glass cannons you'll encounter.

Merforum wrote: »

BTW a 4 player team like tank, healer, 2 dd who can complete every dungeon in the game should NOT be able to be beat by one guy in PVP over and over (this happened to me several times with a few PVE groups I had), that is a broken system and has been for a long time.

Yes they absolutely should. You don't deserve to automatically win a fight just because you're numerically superior. If that was the case then skill would truly mean nothing, the only thing that would matter is numbers.

I've killed groups of people before, and my husband and I together have killed what I'm pretty sure was groups of PvErs before. Sad for them, but why should they have the expectation of automatic victory even if they can "complete every dungeon in the game'? The skillset for PvE is vastly different than PvP. The builds for PvE are vastly different than PvP. They are not the same, and while having the skillset in one lends itself to more easily learning the other, it doesn't mean you automatically know how to do it without experience and practice.

If I'm alone and taking on this dungeon group you mentioned, if they don't have proper PvP builds (no stuns, no impen, inappropriate PvP gear, no appropriate self heals, no defensive bar, no PvP burst combos, laying down stationary abilities like destro ults and lightning splashes and such) and don't understand the mechanics of PvP (setting up burst windows, coordinating burst as a group, funneling people into choke points, using LoS to break up attacks, separating large groups into smaller ones) why should they win just because they're their and have the numbers?

That's like saying I should be able to grab a random tank, healer, and dps from Cyrodiil and walking into vet Moon Hunter Keep and complete it without having an appropriate PvE build or learning the mechanics. Afterall, I've got the numbers and the roles, I deserve to win right?

Honestly, this makes me think this is what must have happened to you and your group, because I can guarantee you with absolute 100% certainty that a solid 4 man PvP group filled with competent PvP players with competent PvP builds (and I don't mean super skilled players either, literally just solidly good ones) isn't going to die to one person outside of maybe two very specific circumstances: They got beat up by someone comfortably at the top of the skill ceiling, or they got bombed unexpectedly. If neither of those two things took place, then the only other option is that they're simply not as good as they thought they were.

Merforum wrote: »

As many others have pointed out these proc sets are actually a good addition to be able to kill super tanky and especially almost broken WW tanks. But I say don't nerf WW just leave the poison proc sets as counter.

If these poison proc sets are a good addition to kill the metastasizing WW malignancy, then that's still a poor excuse because it only serves stamina characters. I don't blame you for forgetting that magicka PvP's too though, ZOS seems to do it with disturbing frequency.

Merforum wrote: »

What needs to be nerfed is massive crit and execute damage and cancel exploiting channeled/cast time abilities like snipe/sweeps.

No it doesn't. "Massive crits" aren't a problem if you're running the requisite 3k impen. If they are it means you're either choosing to run less than that, in which case you knew the risks, or you're getting hit so hard that the ~20% difference likely doesn't matter anyway and the outcome would probably be similar even if they didn't crit. Execute damage is the easiest of all to negate. You can either keep your healing up and not fall into execute, break LoS so you can't be executed, or roll dodge out of it. If you can't do any of those things it means you've lost the fight. This is PvP, it happens. Just take your execution with style and ride back out for a rematch.

BTW, animation canceling isn't an exploit.

You are right a lot of 'good' players also talk about well rounded builds but I am talking about what they actually do in practice not what they say. In practice, they prefer insane burst, quick kill and scoff at other builds. Just look at most comments in this forum, people using tanky, procy, healy builds are constantly being called bad, lazy, unskilled.

You are correct that the build and knowledge of PVP is very helpful but assuming that the PVP person is always the best player and PVErs in PVP are always terrible is NOT the case. I am talking about people who played high end PVE and know the game extremely well going into PVP and getting ganked right and left by almost anyone. That is broken. Then going and changing to all PVP gear/skills/impen etc and going in and getting ganked over and over still. I admit that beginning PVP there is a 'freak out' aspect (that isn't in PVE) that needs to be overcome before you can play properly but the massive crit/ganking potential is very extreme and unnecessarily toxic.

And you are right I have seen PVPer come into PVE dungeon and being more terrible than absolute beginners but if they listen to advice and also can switch to some better skills and learn mechs they can be good in no time. Although most in my experience are too arrogant to take advise, some do.

Actually the solution to many problems and the disparity between PVE/PVP is pretty simple to fix, use battle spirit to REMOVE CRIT from PVP all together. Crit is most of the problem. Then proc set damage can be toned down a bit, but allow proc sets to crit only in PVE to make up for that. PVP is less toxic, less gankers, PVE has more viable sets, Everyone is happy.

BTW animation cancelling is clearly a bug, someone initially didn't put a timer/lock on skills but made their animation last how long they thought it should take. What makes it an exploit is that some skills like jabs/sweeps/snipe are much more powerful than other skill because they have a channel/cast time, being able to get all the benefit without the proper wait is an exploit. It should be fixed by making all those skills instant cast and reducing damage/effects from them or locking the animation for the specific time limit. Very simple and shouldn't be controversial.

Merforum

Firstmep wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

Perhaps, if this Thews proc kills people often a different approach during combat is necessary. Nearly everyone that runs Thews has no damage output of their own. They rely on the aggressor to kill themselves. My defense against Thews is leaving the fight, they can't do anything to me, I can't do anything to them.

I for one am glad it exists because it deters instant kill builds, especially the ones that can kill multiple people without them having a chance to react at all. After the first few times of instantly dying to Vicious Death I decided I would do something about it and increased health, and armor.

Over time I adapted. Thews is just the next evolution of defense.

problem of this sets is mainly in BGs any non deathmatch is super boring when u get these opponents

I don't understand your comment, there are objectives besides just killing people in non deathmatch where someone wearing Thews can just be ignored. Even if they grab the chaos ball everyone will be killing them and they won't last long.

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Merforum I think that it is better to preserve the spirit of the set for use in for high-leverage situations while still ensuring that one can only make use of that ability sparingly. We already have the precedent for increased Block Cost with the new Aetherial Ascension set.

The spirit of the set is to allow people to reflect damage, so tanky toons aren't just pin cushions for button smashers. And it is really good the way it is currently.

Aetherial Ascension is a complete garbage set and no one is going to use it when you can get more Armor from other sets without any insane drawback. On Mythics the negative effects seem justified. But on a 5 piece sets the benefits need to be much stronger if they will be having such negatives. Radiant Bastion is more the direction hopefully they will be going.

1vXing and killing literally every kind of build in 2 seconds is extremely toxic to any game and moving away from that is very good direction. For Profit, getting more people, and just making the game more fun. And I don't require great game immersion but having tanks that can literally tank ALL content in PVE then go to PVP and get killed in 4 seconds is broken and should have been fixed long ago.

Anything that makes this less possible is great addition to the game. If they want to 'fix' something it would be to massively reduce crit damage base value, fix anim cancelling exploits (by simply making the animation exactly the same time as the skill and unable to be cancelled OR eliminate cast time/channel skills and make them all instant with corresponding reduction of damage/effects). That way the game would still be fast paced but exploiting bugs wouldn't be rewarded.

No, good players killing bad players is how all games work, even games like fall guys which include as much randomness as possible still inevitably had players exponentially better than others. I can’t believe people complain about ani canceling and defending proc sets like thews, why not just go watch a stream if you want an experience so uninvolved, you may as well just watch someone else play? Why even have PvP if you are going to sap as much skill from it as possible with sets like these? This meta currently is dominated by the most thumbless builds in years of thews tanks and alessian wwolves, the most cheesy, boring and dead update in years.

I don't know if you realized this but people who constantly refer to themselves as 'good' players and everyone else as bad, lazy, unskilled, etc is one of the reasons this game is so toxic. An actual 'good' player would learn to adapt and overcome different play styles not continuously complain that they can't complete.

BTW if someone played PVE for years they are NOT beginner or bad, and learning PVP style of play is NOT hard. All of these comments boil down to one thing, there are a handful for PVPers who want to be able to push 4 buttons in 1 second and kill any player no matter what build they have, WHILE at the same time even if 4+ other players are hitting them with 2 buttons per second they can not be killed. Is that skill, is that fun or is that toxic?

You have to ask yourself why after all these years haven't these 'good' players used the duel function to hold events where they fight other 'good' players.That would actually be awesome. Zmax or the players themselves could have tournaments and do stuff like other games. Why has that not happened?

Over the years this game has evolved from people running around with 17-22k health and absolutely everyone being able to burst each other down, with landing a combo basically being able to kill other players, so to watch health pools effectively double with resto and bow be replaced by sword and board you would be pretty unhappy with the direction the game has headed. Performance combined with this is why a large proportion of good players have left, then to die in the sewers to a group comprised of 5 42k health wwolves and a thews tank would drive away even the best of players.

See there you go calling these people 'good' players. Here's what happened and it is obvious, a handful of people have convinced a lot of people that being a 'glass cannon' is the only proper 'SKILLED' playstyle in PVP and any other playstyle is 'bad', 'lazy', 'cheesy'. And when everyone is a glass cannon the game boils down to whoever can do their combo the fastest wins. But all the people who bought into this stupidity are just making themselves easy targets for these 'good' players.

If having different playstyles (tanky, WW, healbot, well rounded, procers) and not being able to be ganked in 2 seconds has driven 'good' players away then were they really ever good players. Or just gankers who have been the most toxic aspect of the entire game. BTW a 4 player team like tank, healer, 2 dd who can complete every dungeon in the game should NOT be able to be beat by one guy in PVP over and over (this happened to me several times with a few PVE groups I had), that is a broken system and has been for a long time.

All these Nerfing complaints are totally hypocritical too. First a lot of proc sets had a high burst so Devs appeased all the whiners by making most of the DOTs. Now everyone is whining about too many DOTs. And some say just make stat/damage/crit stackers do more damage (I usually agree to make other things better to get balance) but the execute and crit is already way too high and 'bursty' the very thing they complained about with proc sets. Why is a massive burst from crit and execute OK but a tiny burst from proc set is evil.

BTW I have read build sites and seen vids from years ago and the Heavy armor use for PVP started long ago way before proc sets were a bad thing. As many others have pointed out these proc sets are actually a good addition to be able to kill super tanky and especially almost broken WW tanks. But I say don't nerf WW just leave the poison proc sets as counter. What needs to be nerfed is massive crit and execute damage and cancel exploiting channeled/cast time abilities like snipe/sweeps.

My bow/bow necro(non proc, swamp raider/morag), that focuses on aoe bombing grps with Blastbones, acid spray and Colo was called cheesy cancer as well.
Go figure.
Apparently if you are not using sword and board and 2h on a Stam class your are cheesing, even tho playing non proc bow builds is far more challenging, than turtling behind a shield till you have ult.
As for harbinger, the main issue with the set, is that players that don't know about it kill themselves way too quick.
Definetly should be adjusted, blazing templars didn't have this much firepower in their prime, not to mention between meditate and shield ult it's easier to permablock than ever.

I agree with you that anything that kills someone, someone is gonna call 'cheesy cancer'. But having distant is one of the biggest benefits in PVP and having damage skills that are literally equal to melee damage is kind of ridiculous. Bow damage should be reduced the farther away you are, which forces you to get closer IMO.

What I hate most about battle grounds especially is bow people who just stand back a max distance, have me beat up a guy like 90% of the damage then do one light attack to finish him off and get massive points/kill in deathmatch. And although I don't agree that proc sets are bad in general I do agree that the way the damage ticks happen, ranged players get massive kill numbers just by having last tick of damage on someone.

All of my 4000+ scores in deathmatch have been me just standing on high ground and picking off everyone in low health. And when anyone comes up to attack me I magnum shot them off the platform, it doesn't require proc sets at all just requires the right situation and lots of melee dudes piling up. But I won't denigrate the play style, just think the scoring in deathmatch should give the person who in literally in battle with someone, being hit by them, doing 90% of damage on them to get equal amount of points, rather than final kill get most points.

Don't get me wrong though, even melee people are stealing kills right and left in battlegrounds, I can't tell you how many times I have 30+ assists and less kills than people who haven't been killed once because they don't engage anyone. Obviously I could sit here and say that anyone who doesn't get in the mix and go toe to toe with people and actually try fight them is being a wimp, chessy or whatever, like gankers say about everyone else, I actually enjoy many different playstyles. I will say though that the ganker style shouldn't be so rewarded simply because it is less dangerous than most other playstyles.

Recapitated

Joinovikova wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

Perhaps, if this Thews proc kills people often a different approach during combat is necessary. Nearly everyone that runs Thews has no damage output of their own. They rely on the aggressor to kill themselves. My defense against Thews is leaving the fight, they can't do anything to me, I can't do anything to them.

I for one am glad it exists because it deters instant kill builds, especially the ones that can kill multiple people without them having a chance to react at all. After the first few times of instantly dying to Vicious Death I decided I would do something about it and increased health, and armor.

Over time I adapted. Thews is just the next evolution of defense.

problem of this sets is mainly in BGs any non deathmatch is super boring when u get these opponents

Yeah the issue is contexts where you can't walk away. I thought this was kind of a meme set at the beginning of the patch because even in deathmatch unless a lot of people are running it you can ignore those tanks, there's no reason to be targeting a Goliath.

It's going to be a different story when you can't avoid queuing into Chaosball.

Fawn4287

Merforum wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

@Merforum
See there you go calling these people 'good' players. Here's what happened and it is obvious, a handful of people have convinced a lot of people that being a 'glass cannon' is the only proper 'SKILLED' playstyle in PVP and any other playstyle is 'bad', 'lazy', 'cheesy'. And when everyone is a glass cannon the game boils down to whoever can do their combo the fastest wins. But all the people who bought into this stupidity are just making themselves easy targets for these 'good' players.

I'm not entirely sure who you're referring to here. If you look over the various popular builds as well as build advice from good players they'll all tell you almost the same thing -- a well-rounded PvP build requires a mix of all three: defense, burst, and sustain. While yes, certain builds will lean more into one than the other, but a balance between them is still required if you wish to do pretty much anything other than zerg surf. The only exception to this being gankers or gank-adjacent type builds, which are typically the only glass cannons you'll encounter.

Merforum wrote: »

BTW a 4 player team like tank, healer, 2 dd who can complete every dungeon in the game should NOT be able to be beat by one guy in PVP over and over (this happened to me several times with a few PVE groups I had), that is a broken system and has been for a long time.

Yes they absolutely should. You don't deserve to automatically win a fight just because you're numerically superior. If that was the case then skill would truly mean nothing, the only thing that would matter is numbers.

I've killed groups of people before, and my husband and I together have killed what I'm pretty sure was groups of PvErs before. Sad for them, but why should they have the expectation of automatic victory even if they can "complete every dungeon in the game'? The skillset for PvE is vastly different than PvP. The builds for PvE are vastly different than PvP. They are not the same, and while having the skillset in one lends itself to more easily learning the other, it doesn't mean you automatically know how to do it without experience and practice.

If I'm alone and taking on this dungeon group you mentioned, if they don't have proper PvP builds (no stuns, no impen, inappropriate PvP gear, no appropriate self heals, no defensive bar, no PvP burst combos, laying down stationary abilities like destro ults and lightning splashes and such) and don't understand the mechanics of PvP (setting up burst windows, coordinating burst as a group, funneling people into choke points, using LoS to break up attacks, separating large groups into smaller ones) why should they win just because they're their and have the numbers?

That's like saying I should be able to grab a random tank, healer, and dps from Cyrodiil and walking into vet Moon Hunter Keep and complete it without having an appropriate PvE build or learning the mechanics. Afterall, I've got the numbers and the roles, I deserve to win right?

Honestly, this makes me think this is what must have happened to you and your group, because I can guarantee you with absolute 100% certainty that a solid 4 man PvP group filled with competent PvP players with competent PvP builds (and I don't mean super skilled players either, literally just solidly good ones) isn't going to die to one person outside of maybe two very specific circumstances: They got beat up by someone comfortably at the top of the skill ceiling, or they got bombed unexpectedly. If neither of those two things took place, then the only other option is that they're simply not as good as they thought they were.

Merforum wrote: »

As many others have pointed out these proc sets are actually a good addition to be able to kill super tanky and especially almost broken WW tanks. But I say don't nerf WW just leave the poison proc sets as counter.

If these poison proc sets are a good addition to kill the metastasizing WW malignancy, then that's still a poor excuse because it only serves stamina characters. I don't blame you for forgetting that magicka PvP's too though, ZOS seems to do it with disturbing frequency.

Merforum wrote: »

What needs to be nerfed is massive crit and execute damage and cancel exploiting channeled/cast time abilities like snipe/sweeps.

No it doesn't. "Massive crits" aren't a problem if you're running the requisite 3k impen. If they are it means you're either choosing to run less than that, in which case you knew the risks, or you're getting hit so hard that the ~20% difference likely doesn't matter anyway and the outcome would probably be similar even if they didn't crit. Execute damage is the easiest of all to negate. You can either keep your healing up and not fall into execute, break LoS so you can't be executed, or roll dodge out of it. If you can't do any of those things it means you've lost the fight. This is PvP, it happens. Just take your execution with style and ride back out for a rematch.

BTW, animation canceling isn't an exploit.

You are right a lot of 'good' players also talk about well rounded builds but I am talking about what they actually do in practice not what they say. In practice, they prefer insane burst, quick kill and scoff at other builds. Just look at most comments in this forum, people using tanky, procy, healy builds are constantly being called bad, lazy, unskilled.

You are correct that the build and knowledge of PVP is very helpful but assuming that the PVP person is always the best player and PVErs in PVP are always terrible is NOT the case. I am talking about people who played high end PVE and know the game extremely well going into PVP and getting ganked right and left by almost anyone. That is broken. Then going and changing to all PVP gear/skills/impen etc and going in and getting ganked over and over still. I admit that beginning PVP there is a 'freak out' aspect (that isn't in PVE) that needs to be overcome before you can play properly but the massive crit/ganking potential is very extreme and unnecessarily toxic.

And you are right I have seen PVPer come into PVE dungeon and being more terrible than absolute beginners but if they listen to advice and also can switch to some better skills and learn mechs they can be good in no time. Although most in my experience are too arrogant to take advise, some do.

Actually the solution to many problems and the disparity between PVE/PVP is pretty simple to fix, use battle spirit to REMOVE CRIT from PVP all together. Crit is most of the problem. Then proc set damage can be toned down a bit, but allow proc sets to crit only in PVE to make up for that. PVP is less toxic, less gankers, PVE has more viable sets, Everyone is happy.

BTW animation cancelling is clearly a bug, someone initially didn't put a timer/lock on skills but made their animation last how long they thought it should take. What makes it an exploit is that some skills like jabs/sweeps/snipe are much more powerful than other skill because they have a channel/cast time, being able to get all the benefit without the proper wait is an exploit. It should be fixed by making all those skills instant cast and reducing damage/effects from them or locking the animation for the specific time limit. Very simple and shouldn't be controversial.

In game tips tell you how to light attack weave, ani canceling is intended to be part of the game and is what adds an effective skill gap in PvE, It would be like going on to an FPS and complaining about bonus headshot/crit damage modifiers, a higher damage achieved for being more precise.

Merforum

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

@Merforum
See there you go calling these people 'good' players. Here's what happened and it is obvious, a handful of people have convinced a lot of people that being a 'glass cannon' is the only proper 'SKILLED' playstyle in PVP and any other playstyle is 'bad', 'lazy', 'cheesy'. And when everyone is a glass cannon the game boils down to whoever can do their combo the fastest wins. But all the people who bought into this stupidity are just making themselves easy targets for these 'good' players.

I'm not entirely sure who you're referring to here. If you look over the various popular builds as well as build advice from good players they'll all tell you almost the same thing -- a well-rounded PvP build requires a mix of all three: defense, burst, and sustain. While yes, certain builds will lean more into one than the other, but a balance between them is still required if you wish to do pretty much anything other than zerg surf. The only exception to this being gankers or gank-adjacent type builds, which are typically the only glass cannons you'll encounter.

Merforum wrote: »

BTW a 4 player team like tank, healer, 2 dd who can complete every dungeon in the game should NOT be able to be beat by one guy in PVP over and over (this happened to me several times with a few PVE groups I had), that is a broken system and has been for a long time.

Yes they absolutely should. You don't deserve to automatically win a fight just because you're numerically superior. If that was the case then skill would truly mean nothing, the only thing that would matter is numbers.

I've killed groups of people before, and my husband and I together have killed what I'm pretty sure was groups of PvErs before. Sad for them, but why should they have the expectation of automatic victory even if they can "complete every dungeon in the game'? The skillset for PvE is vastly different than PvP. The builds for PvE are vastly different than PvP. They are not the same, and while having the skillset in one lends itself to more easily learning the other, it doesn't mean you automatically know how to do it without experience and practice.

If I'm alone and taking on this dungeon group you mentioned, if they don't have proper PvP builds (no stuns, no impen, inappropriate PvP gear, no appropriate self heals, no defensive bar, no PvP burst combos, laying down stationary abilities like destro ults and lightning splashes and such) and don't understand the mechanics of PvP (setting up burst windows, coordinating burst as a group, funneling people into choke points, using LoS to break up attacks, separating large groups into smaller ones) why should they win just because they're their and have the numbers?

That's like saying I should be able to grab a random tank, healer, and dps from Cyrodiil and walking into vet Moon Hunter Keep and complete it without having an appropriate PvE build or learning the mechanics. Afterall, I've got the numbers and the roles, I deserve to win right?

Honestly, this makes me think this is what must have happened to you and your group, because I can guarantee you with absolute 100% certainty that a solid 4 man PvP group filled with competent PvP players with competent PvP builds (and I don't mean super skilled players either, literally just solidly good ones) isn't going to die to one person outside of maybe two very specific circumstances: They got beat up by someone comfortably at the top of the skill ceiling, or they got bombed unexpectedly. If neither of those two things took place, then the only other option is that they're simply not as good as they thought they were.

Merforum wrote: »

As many others have pointed out these proc sets are actually a good addition to be able to kill super tanky and especially almost broken WW tanks. But I say don't nerf WW just leave the poison proc sets as counter.

If these poison proc sets are a good addition to kill the metastasizing WW malignancy, then that's still a poor excuse because it only serves stamina characters. I don't blame you for forgetting that magicka PvP's too though, ZOS seems to do it with disturbing frequency.

Merforum wrote: »

What needs to be nerfed is massive crit and execute damage and cancel exploiting channeled/cast time abilities like snipe/sweeps.

No it doesn't. "Massive crits" aren't a problem if you're running the requisite 3k impen. If they are it means you're either choosing to run less than that, in which case you knew the risks, or you're getting hit so hard that the ~20% difference likely doesn't matter anyway and the outcome would probably be similar even if they didn't crit. Execute damage is the easiest of all to negate. You can either keep your healing up and not fall into execute, break LoS so you can't be executed, or roll dodge out of it. If you can't do any of those things it means you've lost the fight. This is PvP, it happens. Just take your execution with style and ride back out for a rematch.

BTW, animation canceling isn't an exploit.

You are right a lot of 'good' players also talk about well rounded builds but I am talking about what they actually do in practice not what they say. In practice, they prefer insane burst, quick kill and scoff at other builds. Just look at most comments in this forum, people using tanky, procy, healy builds are constantly being called bad, lazy, unskilled.

You are correct that the build and knowledge of PVP is very helpful but assuming that the PVP person is always the best player and PVErs in PVP are always terrible is NOT the case. I am talking about people who played high end PVE and know the game extremely well going into PVP and getting ganked right and left by almost anyone. That is broken. Then going and changing to all PVP gear/skills/impen etc and going in and getting ganked over and over still. I admit that beginning PVP there is a 'freak out' aspect (that isn't in PVE) that needs to be overcome before you can play properly but the massive crit/ganking potential is very extreme and unnecessarily toxic.

And you are right I have seen PVPer come into PVE dungeon and being more terrible than absolute beginners but if they listen to advice and also can switch to some better skills and learn mechs they can be good in no time. Although most in my experience are too arrogant to take advise, some do.

Actually the solution to many problems and the disparity between PVE/PVP is pretty simple to fix, use battle spirit to REMOVE CRIT from PVP all together. Crit is most of the problem. Then proc set damage can be toned down a bit, but allow proc sets to crit only in PVE to make up for that. PVP is less toxic, less gankers, PVE has more viable sets, Everyone is happy.

BTW animation cancelling is clearly a bug, someone initially didn't put a timer/lock on skills but made their animation last how long they thought it should take. What makes it an exploit is that some skills like jabs/sweeps/snipe are much more powerful than other skill because they have a channel/cast time, being able to get all the benefit without the proper wait is an exploit. It should be fixed by making all those skills instant cast and reducing damage/effects from them or locking the animation for the specific time limit. Very simple and shouldn't be controversial.

In game tips tell you how to light attack weave, ani canceling is intended to be part of the game and is what adds an effective skill gap in PvE, It would be like going on to an FPS and complaining about bonus headshot/crit damage modifiers, a higher damage achieved for being more precise.

Just because they decided to call it a feature instead of a bug doesn't mean it is a good thing. And the obvious huge benefit you get from doing it in PVE especially only shows how extreme of a bug it is. But I wasn't actually talking about LIGHT ATTACK cancelling in my response, I was talking about channel/cast time skills cancelling. That is where it is a completely obvious exploit, that actually can and should be fixed. Like I said by making the anim uncancellable or making instant cast only with corresponding damage/effects as other skills. BTW using these exploits isn't that hard to learn but doesn't make you a better player necessarily. I'll do it when I have to but still would like them to be fixed.

Recapitated

Merforum wrote: »

I was talking about channel/cast time skills cancelling. That is where it is a completely obvious exploit, that actually can and should be fixed. Like I said by making the anim uncancellable or making instant cast only with corresponding damage/effects as other skills. BTW using these exploits isn't that hard to learn but doesn't make you a better player necessarily. I'll do it when I have to but still would like them to be fixed.

There are no channels, proper, that you can cancel. If you use DBOS, dswing, snipe (not the desync), dark conversion or whatever and block, bar swap, LA etc. during the cast time either the skill won't go off or your second action will not happen. Just like your "blocking and jumping mitigates 100% of an ulti damage" comment, this isn't real.

If it is, then you should show us, since it "isn't that hard to learn".

JayKwellen

Merforum wrote: »

@Merforum
Actually the solution to many problems and the disparity between PVE/PVP is pretty simple to fix, use battle spirit to REMOVE CRIT from PVP all together. Crit is most of the problem. Then proc set damage can be toned down a bit, but allow proc sets to crit only in PVE to make up for that. PVP is less toxic, less gankers, PVE has more viable sets, Everyone is happy.

So, I'm honestly not trying to be rude or mean here but seriously, crit is not a real problem in PvP. Your comments to the contrary only serve to stand as a monument to your own admitted lack of experience and/or knowledge of the subject.

"Crit is most of the problem" is, and I mean this literally, an admission that you don't actually understand most of the problems with PvP.

You yourself have admitted you've only PvP'd for a few weeks, so your experience on the matter is just a veritable drop in the ocean, akin to a nurses aide on their first day of work chastising a senior attending cardiothoracic surgeon for performing a left atrial appendage ligation instead of just continuing with only pharmacological anticoagulation, which is really just a fancy and condescending way of saying "you don't know what you don't know".

So I truly don't understand what font of wisdom you've tapped to manage to come to such a definitive conclusion in such a short time with such a lack of experience.

However I have been wrong before. Many many many times at that. So I'll tell you what -- find me one reputable source, be it a skilled PvP streamer or PvP theorycrafter or even a well respected and knowledgeable forum dweller who agrees with your point of contention that crit is toxic and "most of the problem", and I'll be more than happy to reconsider my position and acknowledge the value of yours.

ealdwin

Recapitated wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

I was talking about channel/cast time skills cancelling. That is where it is a completely obvious exploit, that actually can and should be fixed. Like I said by making the anim uncancellable or making instant cast only with corresponding damage/effects as other skills. BTW using these exploits isn't that hard to learn but doesn't make you a better player necessarily. I'll do it when I have to but still would like them to be fixed.

There are no channels, proper, that you can cancel. If you use DBOS, dswing, snipe (not the desync), dark conversion or whatever and block, bar swap, LA etc. during the cast time either the skill won't go off or your second action will not happen. Just like your "blocking and jumping mitigates 100% of an ulti damage" comment, this isn't real.

If it is, then you should show us, since it "isn't that hard to learn".

As a Templar main, can confirm.

It would be amazing if I could somehow manage to get every tick of Jabs/Sweeps or Radiant Glory/Radiant Oppression to land in one instant by way of a light attack. But that is in every way completely 100% impossible in ESO. The only thing I can do once that skill has fired, is to bash, block, or bar swap in order to stop the skill if I need to block or if I pressed the wrong button. The cost is not refunded, the damage that I canceled does not occur, the skill is stopped.

Merforum

JayKwellen wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

@Merforum
Actually the solution to many problems and the disparity between PVE/PVP is pretty simple to fix, use battle spirit to REMOVE CRIT from PVP all together. Crit is most of the problem. Then proc set damage can be toned down a bit, but allow proc sets to crit only in PVE to make up for that. PVP is less toxic, less gankers, PVE has more viable sets, Everyone is happy.

So, I'm honestly not trying to be rude or mean here but seriously, crit is not a real problem in PvP. Your comments to the contrary only serve to stand as a monument to your own admitted lack of experience and/or knowledge of the subject.

"Crit is most of the problem" is, and I mean this literally, an admission that you don't actually understand most of the problems with PvP.

You yourself have admitted you've only PvP'd for a few weeks, so your experience on the matter is just a veritable drop in the ocean, akin to a nurses aide on their first day of work chastising a senior attending cardiothoracic surgeon for performing a left atrial appendage ligation instead of just continuing with only pharmacological anticoagulation, which is really just a fancy and condescending way of saying "you don't know what you don't know".

So I truly don't understand what font of wisdom you've tapped to manage to come to such a definitive conclusion in such a short time with such a lack of experience.

However I have been wrong before. Many many many times at that. So I'll tell you what -- find me one reputable source, be it a skilled PvP streamer or PvP theorycrafter or even a well respected and knowledgeable forum dweller who agrees with your point of contention that crit is toxic and "most of the problem", and I'll be more than happy to reconsider my position and acknowledge the value of yours.

It is pretty obvious that crit damage over the years has made most of the difference in ganking (which is toxic) in PVP. I don't need self proclaimed experts who actually love this crit damage to say it is bad. The devs themselves and moving toward toning crit down already, did they just make that up out of thin air. Plus they gave everyone default crit resist, why? So called 'good players' can call the Devs stupid but I think they know something that we don't. I haven't played PVP until recently but I have been reading and watching vids for years. Actually many years ago I started seeing people say to stack damage/stats in PVP rather than crit.

BTW want to know something my biggest improvement ever had nothing to do with practice, builds, skills, rotation/combo, new computer, new controller (which helped a bit) you know what it was...when I found out the camera setting for controller was set to .5 instead of 1.8, that single change was a complete game changer. In PVE I could cope with it (didn't know) but for PVP it is like night and day difference.

JayKwellen

Merforum wrote: »

@Merforum
It is pretty obvious

Is not an argument. It's the spiritual cousin of "lots of people are saying".

Merforum wrote: »

I don't need self proclaimed experts who actually love this crit damage to say it is bad.

"I have no evidence"

Merforum wrote: »

The devs themselves and moving toward toning crit down already, did they just make that up out of thin air.

Yes they did. If this is a surprise to you, which it shouldn't be, look at all the other random and contradictory decisions they've randomly made over the years. This is a well established pattern of behavior at this point.

Merforum wrote: »

Plus they gave everyone default crit resist, why?

Likely trying to help new players who refuse to admit and/or learn that they need to wear something other their overland or trial gear in PvP if they wish to be competitive. ZOS has so much as stated that they want to artificially make the game easier for them.

Merforum wrote: »

So called 'good players' can call the Devs stupid but I think they know something that we don't.

I'd be interested to know what exactly it is that they know, given the years of inconsistent and often contradictory changes they've constantly making to the game.

Merforum wrote: »

I haven't played PVP until recently but I have been reading and watching vids for years.

Actually doing something and watching videos about it aren't at all the same thing. This is like arguing with a pilot about how to fly a plane while saying "I've never flown a jetliner before, but I've played Flight Simulator and watched a lot of youtube videos about it"

Merforum wrote: »

Actually many years ago I started seeing people say to stack damage/stats in PVP rather than crit.

So you admit then that stacking crit is and has been considered a subpar build approach in PvP? If that's the case, how are you also arguing that crit is the problem? If it was as strong as you were suggesting...wouldn't the consensus be to build into it?

Fawn4287

Merforum wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

@Merforum
Actually the solution to many problems and the disparity between PVE/PVP is pretty simple to fix, use battle spirit to REMOVE CRIT from PVP all together. Crit is most of the problem. Then proc set damage can be toned down a bit, but allow proc sets to crit only in PVE to make up for that. PVP is less toxic, less gankers, PVE has more viable sets, Everyone is happy.

So, I'm honestly not trying to be rude or mean here but seriously, crit is not a real problem in PvP. Your comments to the contrary only serve to stand as a monument to your own admitted lack of experience and/or knowledge of the subject.

"Crit is most of the problem" is, and I mean this literally, an admission that you don't actually understand most of the problems with PvP.

You yourself have admitted you've only PvP'd for a few weeks, so your experience on the matter is just a veritable drop in the ocean, akin to a nurses aide on their first day of work chastising a senior attending cardiothoracic surgeon for performing a left atrial appendage ligation instead of just continuing with only pharmacological anticoagulation, which is really just a fancy and condescending way of saying "you don't know what you don't know".

So I truly don't understand what font of wisdom you've tapped to manage to come to such a definitive conclusion in such a short time with such a lack of experience.

However I have been wrong before. Many many many times at that. So I'll tell you what -- find me one reputable source, be it a skilled PvP streamer or PvP theorycrafter or even a well respected and knowledgeable forum dweller who agrees with your point of contention that crit is toxic and "most of the problem", and I'll be more than happy to reconsider my position and acknowledge the value of yours.

It is pretty obvious that crit damage over the years has made most of the difference in ganking (which is toxic) in PVP. I don't need self proclaimed experts who actually love this crit damage to say it is bad. The devs themselves and moving toward toning crit down already, did they just make that up out of thin air. Plus they gave everyone default crit resist, why? So called 'good players' can call the Devs stupid but I think they know something that we don't. I haven't played PVP until recently but I have been reading and watching vids for years. Actually many years ago I started seeing people say to stack damage/stats in PVP rather than crit.

BTW want to know something my biggest improvement ever had nothing to do with practice, builds, skills, rotation/combo, new computer, new controller (which helped a bit) you know what it was...when I found out the camera setting for controller was set to .5 instead of 1.8, that single change was a complete game changer. In PVE I could cope with it (didn't know) but for PVP it is like night and day difference.

Crit damage is anything but the issue, the thing causing major issues and problems in PvP is Malacath and proc sets, which literally cannot crit. There is only one class that it even makes sense now to stack crit on and that is nightblade (Since even mag and stam templars use malacaths now) which is still second best to stacking raw damage stats. The issue with the game is absurdly tanky builds that continue to stack more and more health, thanks to the crutch Malacath combined with proc sets provides to non damage centric builds. Crit in CP is being nerfed next patch, which means even more medium and light armour builds will have even more reason to use this unnecessarily over powered mythic.

Firstmep

Merforum wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Joinovikova wrote: »

Draevik wrote: »

Perhaps, if this Thews proc kills people often a different approach during combat is necessary. Nearly everyone that runs Thews has no damage output of their own. They rely on the aggressor to kill themselves. My defense against Thews is leaving the fight, they can't do anything to me, I can't do anything to them.

I for one am glad it exists because it deters instant kill builds, especially the ones that can kill multiple people without them having a chance to react at all. After the first few times of instantly dying to Vicious Death I decided I would do something about it and increased health, and armor.

Over time I adapted. Thews is just the next evolution of defense.

problem of this sets is mainly in BGs any non deathmatch is super boring when u get these opponents

I don't understand your comment, there are objectives besides just killing people in non deathmatch where someone wearing Thews can just be ignored. Even if they grab the chaos ball everyone will be killing them and they won't last long.

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Merforum I think that it is better to preserve the spirit of the set for use in for high-leverage situations while still ensuring that one can only make use of that ability sparingly. We already have the precedent for increased Block Cost with the new Aetherial Ascension set.

The spirit of the set is to allow people to reflect damage, so tanky toons aren't just pin cushions for button smashers. And it is really good the way it is currently.

Aetherial Ascension is a complete garbage set and no one is going to use it when you can get more Armor from other sets without any insane drawback. On Mythics the negative effects seem justified. But on a 5 piece sets the benefits need to be much stronger if they will be having such negatives. Radiant Bastion is more the direction hopefully they will be going.

1vXing and killing literally every kind of build in 2 seconds is extremely toxic to any game and moving away from that is very good direction. For Profit, getting more people, and just making the game more fun. And I don't require great game immersion but having tanks that can literally tank ALL content in PVE then go to PVP and get killed in 4 seconds is broken and should have been fixed long ago.

Anything that makes this less possible is great addition to the game. If they want to 'fix' something it would be to massively reduce crit damage base value, fix anim cancelling exploits (by simply making the animation exactly the same time as the skill and unable to be cancelled OR eliminate cast time/channel skills and make them all instant with corresponding reduction of damage/effects). That way the game would still be fast paced but exploiting bugs wouldn't be rewarded.

No, good players killing bad players is how all games work, even games like fall guys which include as much randomness as possible still inevitably had players exponentially better than others. I can’t believe people complain about ani canceling and defending proc sets like thews, why not just go watch a stream if you want an experience so uninvolved, you may as well just watch someone else play? Why even have PvP if you are going to sap as much skill from it as possible with sets like these? This meta currently is dominated by the most thumbless builds in years of thews tanks and alessian wwolves, the most cheesy, boring and dead update in years.

I don't know if you realized this but people who constantly refer to themselves as 'good' players and everyone else as bad, lazy, unskilled, etc is one of the reasons this game is so toxic. An actual 'good' player would learn to adapt and overcome different play styles not continuously complain that they can't complete.

BTW if someone played PVE for years they are NOT beginner or bad, and learning PVP style of play is NOT hard. All of these comments boil down to one thing, there are a handful for PVPers who want to be able to push 4 buttons in 1 second and kill any player no matter what build they have, WHILE at the same time even if 4+ other players are hitting them with 2 buttons per second they can not be killed. Is that skill, is that fun or is that toxic?

You have to ask yourself why after all these years haven't these 'good' players used the duel function to hold events where they fight other 'good' players.That would actually be awesome. Zmax or the players themselves could have tournaments and do stuff like other games. Why has that not happened?

Over the years this game has evolved from people running around with 17-22k health and absolutely everyone being able to burst each other down, with landing a combo basically being able to kill other players, so to watch health pools effectively double with resto and bow be replaced by sword and board you would be pretty unhappy with the direction the game has headed. Performance combined with this is why a large proportion of good players have left, then to die in the sewers to a group comprised of 5 42k health wwolves and a thews tank would drive away even the best of players.

See there you go calling these people 'good' players. Here's what happened and it is obvious, a handful of people have convinced a lot of people that being a 'glass cannon' is the only proper 'SKILLED' playstyle in PVP and any other playstyle is 'bad', 'lazy', 'cheesy'. And when everyone is a glass cannon the game boils down to whoever can do their combo the fastest wins. But all the people who bought into this stupidity are just making themselves easy targets for these 'good' players.

If having different playstyles (tanky, WW, healbot, well rounded, procers) and not being able to be ganked in 2 seconds has driven 'good' players away then were they really ever good players. Or just gankers who have been the most toxic aspect of the entire game. BTW a 4 player team like tank, healer, 2 dd who can complete every dungeon in the game should NOT be able to be beat by one guy in PVP over and over (this happened to me several times with a few PVE groups I had), that is a broken system and has been for a long time.

All these Nerfing complaints are totally hypocritical too. First a lot of proc sets had a high burst so Devs appeased all the whiners by making most of the DOTs. Now everyone is whining about too many DOTs. And some say just make stat/damage/crit stackers do more damage (I usually agree to make other things better to get balance) but the execute and crit is already way too high and 'bursty' the very thing they complained about with proc sets. Why is a massive burst from crit and execute OK but a tiny burst from proc set is evil.

BTW I have read build sites and seen vids from years ago and the Heavy armor use for PVP started long ago way before proc sets were a bad thing. As many others have pointed out these proc sets are actually a good addition to be able to kill super tanky and especially almost broken WW tanks. But I say don't nerf WW just leave the poison proc sets as counter. What needs to be nerfed is massive crit and execute damage and cancel exploiting channeled/cast time abilities like snipe/sweeps.

My bow/bow necro(non proc, swamp raider/morag), that focuses on aoe bombing grps with Blastbones, acid spray and Colo was called cheesy cancer as well.
Go figure.
Apparently if you are not using sword and board and 2h on a Stam class your are cheesing, even tho playing non proc bow builds is far more challenging, than turtling behind a shield till you have ult.
As for harbinger, the main issue with the set, is that players that don't know about it kill themselves way too quick.
Definetly should be adjusted, blazing templars didn't have this much firepower in their prime, not to mention between meditate and shield ult it's easier to permablock than ever.

I agree with you that anything that kills someone, someone is gonna call 'cheesy cancer'. But having distant is one of the biggest benefits in PVP and having damage skills that are literally equal to melee damage is kind of ridiculous. Bow damage should be reduced the farther away you are, which forces you to get closer IMO.

What I hate most about battle grounds especially is bow people who just stand back a max distance, have me beat up a guy like 90% of the damage then do one light attack to finish him off and get massive points/kill in deathmatch. And although I don't agree that proc sets are bad in general I do agree that the way the damage ticks happen, ranged players get massive kill numbers just by having last tick of damage on someone.

All of my 4000+ scores in deathmatch have been me just standing on high ground and picking off everyone in low health. And when anyone comes up to attack me I magnum shot them off the platform, it doesn't require proc sets at all just requires the right situation and lots of melee dudes piling up. But I won't denigrate the play style, just think the scoring in deathmatch should give the person who in literally in battle with someone, being hit by them, doing 90% of damage on them to get equal amount of points, rather than final kill get most points.

Don't get me wrong though, even melee people are stealing kills right and left in battlegrounds, I can't tell you how many times I have 30+ assists and less kills than people who haven't been killed once because they don't engage anyone. Obviously I could sit here and say that anyone who doesn't get in the mix and go toe to toe with people and actually try fight them is being a wimp, chessy or whatever, like gankers say about everyone else, I actually enjoy many different playstyles. I will say though that the ganker style shouldn't be so rewarded simply because it is less dangerous than most other playstyles.

You can't really stay in max range with acid spray ^^.
If I was using double procs from max range sure.
Arrow spray definetly has very generous scaling I'll admit.
I play melee on a lot of classes, and it has its advantages and disadvantages too, for sure.
As for the topic of this thread, harbinger is really only an issue of you don't know about it.
Harbinger necros can be brought down eventually, but ofc it's not ideal.
I tend to just ignore them.
If they sit on a flag just get 1 more person from your team and you'll get the flag and there is nothing the harbinger user can do by themselves if they're not attacked.
Still the set could be reworked as its very powerful aganist new/bad players.

Recapitated

Merforum wrote: »

It is pretty obvious that crit damage over the years has made most of the difference in ganking (which is toxic) in PVP. I don't need self proclaimed experts who actually love this crit damage to say it is bad. The devs themselves and moving toward toning crit down already, did they just make that up out of thin air. Plus they gave everyone default crit resist, why?

What do you mean over the years? You weren't there! You've literally been here for less than one patch, and mostly in BGs where ganking functions completely differently, AND on top of that you haven't played most specs. Why do you keep calling random irrelevant features of the game toxic? Are we supposed to think it's not toxic to be alleging with zero evidence that other players are cheating with macros/cast time cancels/impossible damage mitigation so you don't have to concede the win to players who learn the game? Is that your idea of fairness and sportsmanship?

ZOS buffed NB crit damage either this or previous patch, I can't remember — either way that change indicates ZOS doesn't want crit ganking gone although there hasn't been any clear vision that can be divined from changes over the years. The nerfs to crit look like they have more to do with PVE, which is where ZOS's "you can get lots of crit chance without building for it" statement applies. Nobody except for nightblades invests in crits, but you wouldn't know because you've never done the actual work of building and playing a spec whose damage actually scales off their offensive stats.

When it comes to crit resists ZOS has literally written that the damage "balances itself" in PVP. They think being able to invest into it negates the problem of crit being too powerful. You'll notice that while we got base resists the most common source of resists - impen - got nerfed, meaning ZOS doesn't actually want the number to increase much. What they want is for people to be able to wear something other than impen.

Just go play a 2h/SNB stat based build next patch and get some real hands on time with it, in the meantime it's impossible to take your armchair theorizing seriously.

Merforum

Recapitated wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

It is pretty obvious that crit damage over the years has made most of the difference in ganking (which is toxic) in PVP. I don't need self proclaimed experts who actually love this crit damage to say it is bad. The devs themselves and moving toward toning crit down already, did they just make that up out of thin air. Plus they gave everyone default crit resist, why?

What do you mean over the years? You weren't there! You've literally been here for less than one patch, and mostly in BGs where ganking functions completely differently, AND on top of that you haven't played most specs. Why do you keep calling random irrelevant features of the game toxic? Are we supposed to think it's not toxic to be alleging with zero evidence that other players are cheating with macros/cast time cancels/impossible damage mitigation so you don't have to concede the win to players who learn the game? Is that your idea of fairness and sportsmanship?

ZOS buffed NB crit damage either this or previous patch, I can't remember — either way that change indicates ZOS doesn't want crit ganking gone although there hasn't been any clear vision that can be divined from changes over the years. The nerfs to crit look like they have more to do with PVE, which is where ZOS's "you can get lots of crit chance without building for it" statement applies. Nobody except for nightblades invests in crits, but you wouldn't know because you've never done the actual work of building and playing a spec whose damage actually scales off their offensive stats.

When it comes to crit resists ZOS has literally written that the damage "balances itself" in PVP. They think being able to invest into it negates the problem of crit being too powerful. You'll notice that while we got base resists the most common source of resists - impen - got nerfed, meaning ZOS doesn't actually want the number to increase much. What they want is for people to be able to wear something other than impen.

Just go play a 2h/SNB stat based build next patch and get some real hands on time with it, in the meantime it's impossible to take your armchair theorizing seriously.

You really need to get a life, buy a dog or something. I have seen you making insulting comments to other people and them calling you out. Now for some reason you are following me around the forum insulting me too. I am going to see it there is a block function because I and probably a lot of others have no interest in what you have to say. It is one thing to disagree but quite another to harass people. Go away.

Merforum

JayKwellen wrote: »

Merforum wrote: »

@Merforum
It is pretty obvious

Is not an argument. It's the spiritual cousin of "lots of people are saying".

Merforum wrote: »

I don't need self proclaimed experts who actually love this crit damage to say it is bad.

"I have no evidence"

Merforum wrote: »

The devs themselves and moving toward toning crit down already, did they just make that up out of thin air.

Yes they did. If this is a surprise to you, which it shouldn't be, look at all the other random and contradictory decisions they've randomly made over the years. This is a well established pattern of behavior at this point.

Merforum wrote: »

Plus they gave everyone default crit resist, why?

Likely trying to help new players who refuse to admit and/or learn that they need to wear something other their overland or trial gear in PvP if they wish to be competitive. ZOS has so much as stated that they want to artificially make the game easier for them.

Merforum wrote: »

So called 'good players' can call the Devs stupid but I think they know something that we don't.

I'd be interested to know what exactly it is that they know, given the years of inconsistent and often contradictory changes they've constantly making to the game.

Merforum wrote: »

I haven't played PVP until recently but I have been reading and watching vids for years.

Actually doing something and watching videos about it aren't at all the same thing. This is like arguing with a pilot about how to fly a plane while saying "I've never flown a jetliner before, but I've played Flight Simulator and watched a lot of youtube videos about it"

Merforum wrote: »

Actually many years ago I started seeing people say to stack damage/stats in PVP rather than crit.

So you admit then that stacking crit is and has been considered a subpar build approach in PvP? If that's the case, how are you also arguing that crit is the problem? If it was as strong as you were suggesting...wouldn't the consensus be to build into it?

There is no need to be insulting. Maybe I am just a contrarian and look at thing from the opposite perspective than other people. Maybe I have 150 IQ and learned analytics in military intelligence and worked 30 years in analysis and maybe I am just putting together the bits of info I have seen, read, over the years. The analogy of how long someone has played a certain aspect of a game only pertains to their ability to PLAY it, NOT to analyze facts related to it and pontificate on a forum. But I wouldn't expect everyone to comprehend that simple fact.

BTW my point is if crit damage was never part of PVP from the beginning, would there have been a lot of these problems we have seen for years. And it is not too late, have you actually thought what the benefits would be to eliminate crit from PVP. As I said the first and most obvious.

1. PVE would be less affected by changes to sets 'balanced' for PVP
2. proc sets could have toned down damage/effects, but in PVE be able to crit
3. ganking would require more skill, not just hiding then 3 button combos almost anyone
4. Malacath would have to be changed
5. No one would have to stack impen (which devs definitely said was prefered) or for CP stack crit resist
6. There could literally be builds that would work in PVE and PVP with only changing skills, eliminating the need to have 2 sets of everything, I could go on