Reconstruction Cost Needs To Be Increased

heaven13

chuynh729 wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

This might be an unpopular opinion.

But I don't understand why the ability to create any gear, with any trait, should cost only 25 transmute stones (and no trait stones). Right now, simply just altering the trait of an already existing item costs 50 transmute stones. With such a low cost, wouldn't this new system make the current transmutation system pointless?

I understand 25 transmute stones is the cost only if you've unlocked every piece of gear from the set. But in my opinion, that "downside" is largely irrelevant because it would only be a matter of time before people get to that point. Part of the fun of this game (and every MMO) is the grind - few things make me as excited as when the last piece of gear I needed finally drops. The reconstruction system will be fun for the first few weeks when people are still collecting gear. But afterwards, a large part of the motivation for doing dungeons, trials, or other content will be almost entirely gone because they can simply "craft" the gear. It'll be a grind for transmute stones. Why spend 20-30 minutes running a dungeon or trial when I can get tier 1 in Cyrodiil campaign and be guaranteed any 2 pieces of a gear set with BiS trait in the same amount of time?

Don't get me wrong - I think the recollection & reconstruction systems are amazing. I can finally clear my bank of the 300 pieces of gear that I saved without worrying about "what if" scenarios.
Sometimes the grind for a single piece of gear is so bad that I don't even feel happy when I finally get it - but rather, "finally, what a **** waste of time". I would love to have the option to avoid those kind of grinds. But I also want the cost to be significant enough that I actually have to think about whether or not it's worth the transmute stones. With a cost of only 25 stones, which is literally half the cost of transmuting an off-trait weapon, the choice is obvious. Getting the weapon you're looking for already requires luck. But you'll also need to roll the right trait to make running the content worth it over simply reconstructing it, because transmuting costs double the amount of stones.

I think a minimum cost of somewhere around 100 transmute stones to reconstruct an item would be much better.

Least fun part of the game for most people I think is the grind, only few people injoy it. I believe some of the reasons for the new system is to help people grind less and be open to and try new builds becauae they have qccess to most sets. If the cost of the sets to be high, most people would grind instead of reconstracting, and this would only reinforce existing meta, because people don't want to waste their time trying new things. Every once in a while someone come up with build idea but never go through with it, mostly because they need to grind and transmute, so they end up theory crafting instead of testing.

Another thing is, for some reason I'm finding hard to collect transmute stones as I used to be a few patches ago, not sure if they deceased the trabsmute stone drop rate or what. I had many gold transmute bags but I don't remmember when was last time I got more than 4 stones per gold bag. I believe gold ahould drop atleast 15 and purple 5 not 1or 2, because that is what I got most of the times. Not every is hard try or grinder that can get 200 stones in a week. I need about a week to get 40-50 with constant play and I'm sure many people are the same. The need for grind will never fade away. If this 25 still remain as it is, I myself would grind most of the sets pieces I need and reconstruc the hard to get one or remaining part to complete what I have.

I think the reconstruction system should help ease the grind .I don't think it should have the potential to almost entirely replace it. A cost of 25 stones per piece will potentially do just that, save for certain jewelry sets that drop in purple.

I do realize a cost of 100 is a bit high. When I came up with that cost I was mostly considering the amount of crystals you can get from Cyrodiil, which is 50 per character by simply getting 25k AP in each campaign (which takes 30mins or so). Perhaps a minimum cost of 60 and maximum cost of 80 stones would be more fair.

starkerealm wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

Exactly. I'm glad you see it as well. People will do dungeons & trials more for the first few months. But afterwards, it really will become a grind for transmute stones.

This is, mostly, a semantic difference. Except for one critical detail. Crystal grinding is a (mostly) consistent grind. You may not get exactly the quantity you wanted, but you'll get something and make progress. Gear grind can be an exercise in frustration.

chuynh729 wrote: »

And yes, most likely people aren't going to transmute literally a whole set of gear. They'll probably have a few pieces already lying around somewhere. I was just saying that they could if they wanted to, in order to emphasize how low of a cost 25 crystals is.

For the most part, I agree. I suspect the primary use will be for someone to fill out missing parts of a set if they go back and regrind it.

A major portion of this is focused on alleviating inventory pressure. How many people were caught off guard when sheer venom, a set they may have accidentally farmed years ago while chasing after Scathing Mage, but junked because it was trash? This is the kind of thing this system is designed to counter. If you're like me, and saved a full 5pc Scathing Mage Sheer Venom because, "it might be useful," then great, you rolled the dice and won. However, it's very likely, you've also got another 800 inventory slots chewed up by sets that may never be useful on the idea of, "well, maybe this will be important some day," or, "I might need this for a tank," or even just, "this specific piece of this set is a pain to get, so I'll hold onto it, even if it doesn't work at all right now." (Ex: the Ebon 1h and shields I kept, in spite of the set being bugged for years if you had it on a weapon bar.)

This isn't designed to remove grind, or even ease grind. It's designed to standardize regrinding.

Remember, you can't reconstitute a piece you've never held. This is only a safeguard against, "I had an incredibly niche item, but I deconned it for space, but because of this last patch, it's important again," and, "I rolled an alt, and don't want to grind for another copy of this improbably rare drop." (Ex: BSW BBQ sticks, Maelstrom weapons, ect.)

The entire point of the system is a kind of inventory, "deep storage," and that goal starts to fail if it becomes cost prohibitive to pull things out of collections.

EDIT: Meant to type Sheer instead of Scathing there, though I suppose it works either way if Scathing ever becomes useful again.

If that is the goal of the reconstruction system, then the system could've been designed differently to better accomplish that goal without having the potential to almost entirely replace gear farming.

ie: After deconstructing x amount of an item with y trait, you can reconstruct the the same item x amount of times with y trait, at the same quality (?).
The cost for reconstruction would be reduced to 5 stones flat.

I largely see reconstruction as a means to reduce server lag. How many people, myself included, have been asking for years for inventory space upgrades citing the number of new sets we get each year and new mats and new furnishing and new other items? Bank space has been static. We got housing storage but it has never been added upon. Finally got some inventory pets but it's barely alleviated the storage issues that came with 5 years of new content . With reconstruction, people will be able to free up space that they've been using to hang on to all this gear that they've been too afraid to decon which may end up addressing one factor of lag. It might not help but, either way, the implementation comes out in the player's favor.

People aren't going to want to decon 10 BSW infernos just so, once they decon 10, they can reconstruct 1 later (or 10 but chances are they won't need all those). They'll just hang on to the one they looted leaving us in the same predicament as now. And if you're gearing alts, you're not going to decon pieces those alts could be using just so you could reconstruct them later. It's not intuitive and it's not player friendly.

chuynh729

heaven13 wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

This might be an unpopular opinion.

But I don't understand why the ability to create any gear, with any trait, should cost only 25 transmute stones (and no trait stones). Right now, simply just altering the trait of an already existing item costs 50 transmute stones. With such a low cost, wouldn't this new system make the current transmutation system pointless?

I understand 25 transmute stones is the cost only if you've unlocked every piece of gear from the set. But in my opinion, that "downside" is largely irrelevant because it would only be a matter of time before people get to that point. Part of the fun of this game (and every MMO) is the grind - few things make me as excited as when the last piece of gear I needed finally drops. The reconstruction system will be fun for the first few weeks when people are still collecting gear. But afterwards, a large part of the motivation for doing dungeons, trials, or other content will be almost entirely gone because they can simply "craft" the gear. It'll be a grind for transmute stones. Why spend 20-30 minutes running a dungeon or trial when I can get tier 1 in Cyrodiil campaign and be guaranteed any 2 pieces of a gear set with BiS trait in the same amount of time?

Don't get me wrong - I think the recollection & reconstruction systems are amazing. I can finally clear my bank of the 300 pieces of gear that I saved without worrying about "what if" scenarios.
Sometimes the grind for a single piece of gear is so bad that I don't even feel happy when I finally get it - but rather, "finally, what a **** waste of time". I would love to have the option to avoid those kind of grinds. But I also want the cost to be significant enough that I actually have to think about whether or not it's worth the transmute stones. With a cost of only 25 stones, which is literally half the cost of transmuting an off-trait weapon, the choice is obvious. Getting the weapon you're looking for already requires luck. But you'll also need to roll the right trait to make running the content worth it over simply reconstructing it, because transmuting costs double the amount of stones.

I think a minimum cost of somewhere around 100 transmute stones to reconstruct an item would be much better.

Least fun part of the game for most people I think is the grind, only few people injoy it. I believe some of the reasons for the new system is to help people grind less and be open to and try new builds becauae they have qccess to most sets. If the cost of the sets to be high, most people would grind instead of reconstracting, and this would only reinforce existing meta, because people don't want to waste their time trying new things. Every once in a while someone come up with build idea but never go through with it, mostly because they need to grind and transmute, so they end up theory crafting instead of testing.

Another thing is, for some reason I'm finding hard to collect transmute stones as I used to be a few patches ago, not sure if they deceased the trabsmute stone drop rate or what. I had many gold transmute bags but I don't remmember when was last time I got more than 4 stones per gold bag. I believe gold ahould drop atleast 15 and purple 5 not 1or 2, because that is what I got most of the times. Not every is hard try or grinder that can get 200 stones in a week. I need about a week to get 40-50 with constant play and I'm sure many people are the same. The need for grind will never fade away. If this 25 still remain as it is, I myself would grind most of the sets pieces I need and reconstruc the hard to get one or remaining part to complete what I have.

I think the reconstruction system should help ease the grind .I don't think it should have the potential to almost entirely replace it. A cost of 25 stones per piece will potentially do just that, save for certain jewelry sets that drop in purple.

I do realize a cost of 100 is a bit high. When I came up with that cost I was mostly considering the amount of crystals you can get from Cyrodiil, which is 50 per character by simply getting 25k AP in each campaign (which takes 30mins or so). Perhaps a minimum cost of 60 and maximum cost of 80 stones would be more fair.

starkerealm wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

Exactly. I'm glad you see it as well. People will do dungeons & trials more for the first few months. But afterwards, it really will become a grind for transmute stones.

This is, mostly, a semantic difference. Except for one critical detail. Crystal grinding is a (mostly) consistent grind. You may not get exactly the quantity you wanted, but you'll get something and make progress. Gear grind can be an exercise in frustration.

chuynh729 wrote: »

And yes, most likely people aren't going to transmute literally a whole set of gear. They'll probably have a few pieces already lying around somewhere. I was just saying that they could if they wanted to, in order to emphasize how low of a cost 25 crystals is.

For the most part, I agree. I suspect the primary use will be for someone to fill out missing parts of a set if they go back and regrind it.

A major portion of this is focused on alleviating inventory pressure. How many people were caught off guard when sheer venom, a set they may have accidentally farmed years ago while chasing after Scathing Mage, but junked because it was trash? This is the kind of thing this system is designed to counter. If you're like me, and saved a full 5pc Scathing Mage Sheer Venom because, "it might be useful," then great, you rolled the dice and won. However, it's very likely, you've also got another 800 inventory slots chewed up by sets that may never be useful on the idea of, "well, maybe this will be important some day," or, "I might need this for a tank," or even just, "this specific piece of this set is a pain to get, so I'll hold onto it, even if it doesn't work at all right now." (Ex: the Ebon 1h and shields I kept, in spite of the set being bugged for years if you had it on a weapon bar.)

This isn't designed to remove grind, or even ease grind. It's designed to standardize regrinding.

Remember, you can't reconstitute a piece you've never held. This is only a safeguard against, "I had an incredibly niche item, but I deconned it for space, but because of this last patch, it's important again," and, "I rolled an alt, and don't want to grind for another copy of this improbably rare drop." (Ex: BSW BBQ sticks, Maelstrom weapons, ect.)

The entire point of the system is a kind of inventory, "deep storage," and that goal starts to fail if it becomes cost prohibitive to pull things out of collections.

EDIT: Meant to type Sheer instead of Scathing there, though I suppose it works either way if Scathing ever becomes useful again.

If that is the goal of the reconstruction system, then the system could've been designed differently to better accomplish that goal without having the potential to almost entirely replace gear farming.

ie: After deconstructing x amount of an item with y trait, you can reconstruct the the same item x amount of times with y trait, at the same quality (?).
The cost for reconstruction would be reduced to 5 stones flat.

I largely see reconstruction as a means to reduce server lag. How many people, myself included, have been asking for years for inventory space upgrades citing the number of new sets we get each year and new mats and new furnishing and new other items? Bank space has been static. We got housing storage but it has never been added upon. Finally got some inventory pets but it's barely alleviated the storage issues that came with 5 years of new content . With reconstruction, people will be able to free up space that they've been using to hang on to all this gear that they've been too afraid to decon which may end up addressing one factor of lag. It might not help but, either way, the implementation comes out in the player's favor.

People aren't going to want to decon 10 BSW infernos just so, once they decon 10, they can reconstruct 1 later (or 10 but chances are they won't need all those). They'll just hang on to the one they looted leaving us in the same predicament as now. And if you're gearing alts, you're not going to decon pieces those alts could be using just so you could reconstruct them later. It's not intuitive and it's not player friendly.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. If they have a BSW Staff they aren't going to use any time soon, then why wouldn't they deconstruct it to free up inventory space and be able to reconstruct it in the future if they need it? The only reason they would hang on to it is if they need it right now.

Some people argued that the system was meant to help free up inventory space of unneeded gear & allow for easy reconstruction of that gear when needed in the future. The system I proposed fulfills that purpose perfectly well, more-so than the current system. You seem to want a system that allows you to fully gear alts without needing to step into the dungeon or trial the gear comes from after you've collected it, which admittedly was not its intended purpose.

starkerealm

chuynh729 wrote: »

I think the reconstruction system should help ease the grind .I don't think it should have the potential to almost entirely replace it. A cost of 25 stones per piece will potentially do just that, save for certain jewelry sets that drop in purple.

Except it won't replace the grind at all. It simply replaces re-grinding items. You can't reconstitute an item you've never obtained as a drop. You might use it to retrait an item more cheaply under certain situations, but that's a very niche situation.

The only thing the system does effectively (and consistently) is provide a safety net that allows you to recover items you've previously obtained through grinding. If you are wanting to reconstitute items you'll need to pay with a currency you obtain through grinding. So, there's still grind, it's just a more consistent form of grind. Run a random dungeon and you cannot be assured you'll get a useful drop, but you can be assured you'll get at least one crystal. (With the added caveat that the crystal drops are being improved with this patch, and I haven't seen what that economy looks like.)

chuynh729 wrote: »

I do realize a cost of 100 is a bit high. When I came up with that cost I was mostly considering the amount of crystals you can get from Cyrodiil, which is 50 per character by simply getting 25k AP in each campaign (which takes 30mins or so). Perhaps a minimum cost of 60 and maximum cost of 80 stones would be more fair.

So, important thing to remember about that: You only get those crystals once per campaign. That means you can spend 9 hours grinding in cyrodiil and walk away with 900 crystals, but you can only do that once a month.

It's the most efficient crystal source for player time committed, but it's still a very slow method of obtaining crystals, and requires that you actually enjoy, and play, in Cyrodiil. So, for non-PvPers, that's not an option.

Further, it's justifiable that PvPers will have a greater need for crystals, as balance changes tend to hit them harder, meaning they're more likely to need to retool characters with each patch, meaning those 900 crystals will get used, even at 25 crystals per item.

If you rarely PvP, it's a windfall, but not one you can crank out on a whim. Further, on your pricing, we have a situation where a player would need to grind in PvP on 18 characters to reconstitute gear for one of them. And it would take an entire month.

That's, rough.

chuynh729 wrote: »

If that is the goal of the reconstruction system, then the system could've been designed differently to better accomplish that goal without having the potential to almost entirely replace gear farming.

ie: After deconstructing x amount of an item with y trait, you can reconstruct the the same item x amount of times with y trait, at the same quality (?).
The cost for reconstruction would be reduced to 5 stones flat.

The problem with something like that is balancing complexity with accessibility. The system is designed to be reasonably easy to understand (as far as I can tell.) So, you could have a system where it requires you to collect multiple copies of individual drops, with reconstruction costs shifting based on the individual piece, and bonus discounts applied if you've deconed parts of that set (possibly even blocking you from reconstituting an item you have IF you haven't deconned a copy.) But, that would quickly result in a system that's so complex and obtuse that most players wouldn't be able to understand, and would just ignore it.

As a retroactive fix, this is fairly elegant. My biggest concern on this system being obtuse is it requires access to a Transmutation station, and some players will need help finding those, as they're not common.

If the goal is, as @heaven13 speculates, to reduce server lag, having a more fluid storage system for this stuff makes sense.

While this might look like cherry picking, I do agree that the system might be more efficient at encouraging players to scrap unwanted items if the costs were even lower, such as your suggested 5 crystal cost, for giving you the ability to simply reconstruct anything on a whim, but I do think the 75 - 25 range is fairly coherently calibrated to let you decon items you don't think you'll use, while still encouraging you to hold onto items you think you might, and without completely trivializing getting duplicate copies of a set you like.

It's also worth remembering, having recon as a cheaper option than straight up transmutation will require a fairly extensive collection from a given set. (There are three major exceptions, monster helms, ability altering weapon sets, and mythics. I suspect this is either intentional or a quirk they're happy with, as you already have to go through a lot to obtain those sets in the first place.) I remember asking Rich in an interview what the goal was for the transmute costs, and the answer was basically that they wanted to preserve the endorphin rush for getting a drop you wanted. I suspect some of that goal is still present here. You can't reconstruct an item you've never obtained, you can only recover items (potentially with new traits.

idk

chuynh729 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

I never went out of my way to farm for the staff, but I do have it.

That is absurdly lucky. I say this as someone who's had the BSW BBQ stick drop at least three times, once at level 48.

chuynh729 wrote: »

Typically it's only the last 1-3 pieces from a set that are a pain to farm. Even with 3 missing pieces it's still a cost of 30 or so transmute stones which is still low.

I think that's the point. No, seriously, I think the low cost is the point.

So, a major, longstanding, issue with ESO has been inventory pressure. Our inventories have been getting more, and more, cluttered over the years. Each DLC has brought with it significant changes to existing sets, and the addition of new ones. If a set was useless a couple patches ago, and you deconned everything associated with it, but now it's suddenly useful to your build, you have to go back in and refarm the parts you need.

This is a long term solution.

Instead of us collecting more items, we're looking to unlock a collection set. At that point, a major portion of this is to get us to break down stuff in our inventories that we're not using. Tear up the old sets we've been holding onto on the idea that, maybe, someday, it will be useful.

It also alleviates some of the grind from getting a new character to 50, and having to gear them up. If we already have gear for them, great, but a lot of the time, it means going out and chasing specific drops all over again.

So, let's run some numbers. With the costs as they exist on live, if you take a new character to level 50 and want to gear them up, that will cost somewhere between 300 and 1050 crystals. (Now, it will never actually hit 1050, and will probably cap out at around 910 in realistic circumstances, but that's the theoretical upper limit.) 300's a reasonable amount of grind, 1000 crystals is pretty crazy.

And, yeah, the purpose is to get us to stop carrying so much crap in our inventories and clean those out a bit. At least scrap all the sets we're not using, and may never use.

I think 25 is a pretty reasonable crystal cost for someone who's done a lot of grinding. Now, it does create a fairly complicated question over when you want to scrap items vs when you want to retrait actual drops. Retraiting costs more crystals, but reconstituting requires upgrade materials. I'm not 100% convinced that those options are entirely equivalent. (Jewelry heavily favors retraiting, while the other three favor reconstruction, in my opinion), but there is a legitimate decision to make here.

Given the free limit is 500, and the ESO+ limit is 1k, I think the current prices are calculated around the idea that you'll have most of a set, and then if some balance change hits, you'll be able to afford to pull a complete lineup of gear from storage to keep your character playable, while you work up the crystals for your alts.

Moving the floor up to 75 or 100, would push the "best case," 12 loadout to 900 crystals, well outside the reach of anyone but the most dedicated grinders with ESO+, and have the potential to create situations where players could be left without a solid gear setup if existing sets are heavily retooled.

Now, the thing about this that does worry me is, it opens the door to further reworks similar to what happened with Eternal and Immortal Warrior. I'm not wild about the idea that this will lead to even more impermanence with existing sets. If that's what's going to happen, then that 25 crystal cost will add up fast.

Right now, the system feels like it's designed to be a slightly more inconvenient option for gear storage. If we want the inventory slots for other things, we can just, straight up, junk some armor, and then spend the crystals if we want that back a couple years down the road.

If that is the main goal, I feel like the system could've been designed differently to achieve that goal.

ie: After deconstructing x amount of an item with y trait, you can reconstruct the the same item x amount of times with y trait, at the same quality (?).
The cost for reconstruction would be reduced to 5 stones flat.

The current system seems to better fulfill the purpose of replacing gear farming, more so than to allow for easy reconstruction of previously obtained gear.

The point is to reduce the need to hoard gear. Making it more complicated, as you are suggesting here, very much defeats the goal. Just keeping track of progress one way or another seems to be designed to be self-defeating. No, just no.

idk

chuynh729 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This system is intended to be a convenience, not an inconvenience. That is why the cost of reconstruction is not higher, nor should be. I think maybe OP misses some of the other costs such as only one upgrade matt can be returned when a reconstructed piece is deconstructed. That alone means we will not be constructing and deconstructing gear constantly. It really is that simple.

Uhm... isn't that how it already is for any piece of gear you deconstruct? How is this even an argument or justification for the low cost? If you get all upgrade mats back from deconstructing that would be ridiculous. Dreugh wax would drop to 2k gold, if even.

Uhm . . . Clearly no. Not even close.

As I said, and you responded here to it, this system is intended to be a convenience, not an inconvenience as with what you are suggesting. Focus on the part that is relevant to what you are suggesting.

heaven13

chuynh729 wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

This might be an unpopular opinion.

But I don't understand why the ability to create any gear, with any trait, should cost only 25 transmute stones (and no trait stones). Right now, simply just altering the trait of an already existing item costs 50 transmute stones. With such a low cost, wouldn't this new system make the current transmutation system pointless?

I understand 25 transmute stones is the cost only if you've unlocked every piece of gear from the set. But in my opinion, that "downside" is largely irrelevant because it would only be a matter of time before people get to that point. Part of the fun of this game (and every MMO) is the grind - few things make me as excited as when the last piece of gear I needed finally drops. The reconstruction system will be fun for the first few weeks when people are still collecting gear. But afterwards, a large part of the motivation for doing dungeons, trials, or other content will be almost entirely gone because they can simply "craft" the gear. It'll be a grind for transmute stones. Why spend 20-30 minutes running a dungeon or trial when I can get tier 1 in Cyrodiil campaign and be guaranteed any 2 pieces of a gear set with BiS trait in the same amount of time?

Don't get me wrong - I think the recollection & reconstruction systems are amazing. I can finally clear my bank of the 300 pieces of gear that I saved without worrying about "what if" scenarios.
Sometimes the grind for a single piece of gear is so bad that I don't even feel happy when I finally get it - but rather, "finally, what a **** waste of time". I would love to have the option to avoid those kind of grinds. But I also want the cost to be significant enough that I actually have to think about whether or not it's worth the transmute stones. With a cost of only 25 stones, which is literally half the cost of transmuting an off-trait weapon, the choice is obvious. Getting the weapon you're looking for already requires luck. But you'll also need to roll the right trait to make running the content worth it over simply reconstructing it, because transmuting costs double the amount of stones.

I think a minimum cost of somewhere around 100 transmute stones to reconstruct an item would be much better.

Least fun part of the game for most people I think is the grind, only few people injoy it. I believe some of the reasons for the new system is to help people grind less and be open to and try new builds becauae they have qccess to most sets. If the cost of the sets to be high, most people would grind instead of reconstracting, and this would only reinforce existing meta, because people don't want to waste their time trying new things. Every once in a while someone come up with build idea but never go through with it, mostly because they need to grind and transmute, so they end up theory crafting instead of testing.

Another thing is, for some reason I'm finding hard to collect transmute stones as I used to be a few patches ago, not sure if they deceased the trabsmute stone drop rate or what. I had many gold transmute bags but I don't remmember when was last time I got more than 4 stones per gold bag. I believe gold ahould drop atleast 15 and purple 5 not 1or 2, because that is what I got most of the times. Not every is hard try or grinder that can get 200 stones in a week. I need about a week to get 40-50 with constant play and I'm sure many people are the same. The need for grind will never fade away. If this 25 still remain as it is, I myself would grind most of the sets pieces I need and reconstruc the hard to get one or remaining part to complete what I have.

I think the reconstruction system should help ease the grind .I don't think it should have the potential to almost entirely replace it. A cost of 25 stones per piece will potentially do just that, save for certain jewelry sets that drop in purple.

I do realize a cost of 100 is a bit high. When I came up with that cost I was mostly considering the amount of crystals you can get from Cyrodiil, which is 50 per character by simply getting 25k AP in each campaign (which takes 30mins or so). Perhaps a minimum cost of 60 and maximum cost of 80 stones would be more fair.

starkerealm wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

Exactly. I'm glad you see it as well. People will do dungeons & trials more for the first few months. But afterwards, it really will become a grind for transmute stones.

This is, mostly, a semantic difference. Except for one critical detail. Crystal grinding is a (mostly) consistent grind. You may not get exactly the quantity you wanted, but you'll get something and make progress. Gear grind can be an exercise in frustration.

chuynh729 wrote: »

And yes, most likely people aren't going to transmute literally a whole set of gear. They'll probably have a few pieces already lying around somewhere. I was just saying that they could if they wanted to, in order to emphasize how low of a cost 25 crystals is.

For the most part, I agree. I suspect the primary use will be for someone to fill out missing parts of a set if they go back and regrind it.

A major portion of this is focused on alleviating inventory pressure. How many people were caught off guard when sheer venom, a set they may have accidentally farmed years ago while chasing after Scathing Mage, but junked because it was trash? This is the kind of thing this system is designed to counter. If you're like me, and saved a full 5pc Scathing Mage Sheer Venom because, "it might be useful," then great, you rolled the dice and won. However, it's very likely, you've also got another 800 inventory slots chewed up by sets that may never be useful on the idea of, "well, maybe this will be important some day," or, "I might need this for a tank," or even just, "this specific piece of this set is a pain to get, so I'll hold onto it, even if it doesn't work at all right now." (Ex: the Ebon 1h and shields I kept, in spite of the set being bugged for years if you had it on a weapon bar.)

This isn't designed to remove grind, or even ease grind. It's designed to standardize regrinding.

Remember, you can't reconstitute a piece you've never held. This is only a safeguard against, "I had an incredibly niche item, but I deconned it for space, but because of this last patch, it's important again," and, "I rolled an alt, and don't want to grind for another copy of this improbably rare drop." (Ex: BSW BBQ sticks, Maelstrom weapons, ect.)

The entire point of the system is a kind of inventory, "deep storage," and that goal starts to fail if it becomes cost prohibitive to pull things out of collections.

EDIT: Meant to type Sheer instead of Scathing there, though I suppose it works either way if Scathing ever becomes useful again.

If that is the goal of the reconstruction system, then the system could've been designed differently to better accomplish that goal without having the potential to almost entirely replace gear farming.

ie: After deconstructing x amount of an item with y trait, you can reconstruct the the same item x amount of times with y trait, at the same quality (?).
The cost for reconstruction would be reduced to 5 stones flat.

I largely see reconstruction as a means to reduce server lag. How many people, myself included, have been asking for years for inventory space upgrades citing the number of new sets we get each year and new mats and new furnishing and new other items? Bank space has been static. We got housing storage but it has never been added upon. Finally got some inventory pets but it's barely alleviated the storage issues that came with 5 years of new content . With reconstruction, people will be able to free up space that they've been using to hang on to all this gear that they've been too afraid to decon which may end up addressing one factor of lag. It might not help but, either way, the implementation comes out in the player's favor.

People aren't going to want to decon 10 BSW infernos just so, once they decon 10, they can reconstruct 1 later (or 10 but chances are they won't need all those). They'll just hang on to the one they looted leaving us in the same predicament as now. And if you're gearing alts, you're not going to decon pieces those alts could be using just so you could reconstruct them later. It's not intuitive and it's not player friendly.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. If they have a BSW Staff they aren't going to use any time soon, then why wouldn't they deconstruct it to free up inventory space and be able to reconstruct it in the future if they need it? The only reason they would hang on to it is if they need it right now.

Some people argued that the system was meant to help free up inventory space of unneeded gear & allow for easy reconstruction of that gear when needed in the future. The system I proposed fulfills that purpose perfectly well, more-so than the current system. You seem to want a system that allows you to fully gear alts without needing to step into the dungeon or trial the gear comes from after you've collected it, which admittedly was not its intended purpose.

I think you might need to reread what I've said. I've already specifically stated that I will not be using reconstruction except for very specific pieces and will generally farm instead. If I have trouble getting a drop, then I will reconstruct. I actually enjoy running dungeons and trials and it's almost the only reason I even play the game anymore.

As for the BSW argument, I was specifically referring to your proposal that you can only reconstruct after you've deconned a number of times. If you meant "you can reconstruct 1 item for every 1 decon you do of said item" that was not made clear in your post, to me. Even then, might as well keep said one item because your proposal would cost more than it does on live. 5 crystals to reconstruct to the same trait you deconned + 50 crystals to possibly transmute the trait. While 5 extra stones isn't substantial, it's a waste when you think you could have just sacrificed the inventory slot until you wanted the item.

And I'm not sure how you can just throw out that "admittedly [gearing alts] is not its intended purpose" when that's actually one of the benefits of the system, to the point that had it not been intended certain measures could have been implemented to make it a strictly per-character system.

Finedaible

Op may find the repetitive grind (ad nauseum) for something we have obtained once before 'fun' but I guarantee the majority do not share this sentiment. Content just becomes stale and boring after you have been exposed to it countless times. This new system will be a major quality of life feature that has been needed for years now, especially since it doesn't look like they want to increase bank and character inventory slots any time soon.

FrancisCrawford

starkerealm wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

Like I said, the fact that you need every piece of gear from the set hardly matters - because it's only a matter of time before you collect them all. And once you do, farming for gear will be a waste of time when you can just reconstruct for 25 stones.

Except, that's exactly what the situation is on live. Once you've farmed a set to the point where you've literally seen every piece of it drop, you've already seen every piece of it. There really is no point in farming further. You've either gotten the traits you want, or gotten enough of the traits that you want that retraiting the remaining pieces would be cheaper.

And we're talking a WHOLE LOT of farming to get every weapon type, most of which you'll never use. Just think of the grind to get the weapon you DO want, and multiply it by a factor of 10 or so.

richo262

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

Like I said, the fact that you need every piece of gear from the set hardly matters - because it's only a matter of time before you collect them all. And once you do, farming for gear will be a waste of time when you can just reconstruct for 25 stones.

Except, that's exactly what the situation is on live. Once you've farmed a set to the point where you've literally seen every piece of it drop, you've already seen every piece of it. There really is no point in farming further. You've either gotten the traits you want, or gotten enough of the traits that you want that retraiting the remaining pieces would be cheaper.

And we're talking a WHOLE LOT of farming to get every weapon type, most of which you'll never use. Just think of the grind to get the weapon you DO want, and multiply it by a factor of 10 or so.

The farming wouldn't be too difficult for a full complete. Body sets will be practically complete after 3 or 4 dungeon runs which you will no doubt do over a few months just in pledges. The harder to get stuff will be Jewels / Weapons. I suspect we'll see a trend after every trial/dungeon that people will trade around the items they have not collected and they too will fill pretty quickly. You'd probably have over half of the dungeon sets complete naturally over the course of 6 months if you a regular pledge taker without actively farming those dungeons. Moreso if the group trades at the end. Moreso if you are actively trying to complete a set and grind it.

Also if you're the sort to grind a dungeon for the monster style page, well, you can consider that one done too without even aiming for it. I think you'll find most sets aren't worth the grind to complete, and over time, most of these sets will just complete or mostly complete themselves just through natural (not overtly grinding) gameplay. Of the sets you do actually want, nothing has changed, you still had to grind for them in the first place. If you find the item you want(but not a great trait), and you have enough items of that set to reduce the Transmute cost below 50, its actually a better deal than before to re-roll that item with the trait you want. You still have to find the item though, regardless of the system.

starkerealm

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

Like I said, the fact that you need every piece of gear from the set hardly matters - because it's only a matter of time before you collect them all. And once you do, farming for gear will be a waste of time when you can just reconstruct for 25 stones.

Except, that's exactly what the situation is on live. Once you've farmed a set to the point where you've literally seen every piece of it drop, you've already seen every piece of it. There really is no point in farming further. You've either gotten the traits you want, or gotten enough of the traits that you want that retraiting the remaining pieces would be cheaper.

And we're talking a WHOLE LOT of farming to get every weapon type, most of which you'll never use. Just think of the grind to get the weapon you DO want, and multiply it by a factor of 10 or so.

Not really, it tends to be the opposite in fact. When you don't get a weapon you want, you tend to get something you don't want, and that will frequently count towards ticking off the boxes. How many times have you gotten something utterly stupid like a Jailbreaker's Ice Staff and just vendored or deconned the thing ten minutes later? Because now, that goes into your collection and becomes a permanent discount for that set.

As somebody who has experimented with some very off-spec gear setups (like S&B Infallible) you will certainly notice a lot of weird drops that would have gotten crunched without a second thought before.

Remember, every time you get a weapon drop, you get a weapon drop, and 90% of the time, it's garbage you don't want... except now, that garbage will still be useful for reducing the costs on sets.

richo262

starkerealm wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

Like I said, the fact that you need every piece of gear from the set hardly matters - because it's only a matter of time before you collect them all. And once you do, farming for gear will be a waste of time when you can just reconstruct for 25 stones.

Except, that's exactly what the situation is on live. Once you've farmed a set to the point where you've literally seen every piece of it drop, you've already seen every piece of it. There really is no point in farming further. You've either gotten the traits you want, or gotten enough of the traits that you want that retraiting the remaining pieces would be cheaper.

And we're talking a WHOLE LOT of farming to get every weapon type, most of which you'll never use. Just think of the grind to get the weapon you DO want, and multiply it by a factor of 10 or so.

Not really, it tends to be the opposite in fact. When you don't get a weapon you want, you tend to get something you don't want, and that will frequently count towards ticking off the boxes. How many times have you gotten something utterly stupid like a Jailbreaker's Ice Staff and just vendored or deconned the thing ten minutes later? Because now, that goes into your collection and becomes a permanent discount for that set.

As somebody who has experimented with some very off-spec gear setups (like S&B Infallible) you will certainly notice a lot of weird drops that would have gotten crunched without a second thought before.

Remember, every time you get a weapon drop, you get a weapon drop, and 90% of the time, it's garbage you don't want... except now, that garbage will still be useful for reducing the costs on sets.

Also don't forget, every dungeon you run, there are 3 other people also getting garbage Dungeons and trials will end with garbage trading for set collections. I'm pretty sure these things are going to unlock faster than many think. Overworld will prob be a pain but guild stores will probably stock it all anyway.

Ascarl

"Part of the fun of this game (and every MMO) is the grind " This is why I strongly disagree with the OP. The grind is a common principle of MMORPG but I would not consider that fun.
What makes ESO the best MMORPG for me is that there a possibilities to play the game without grind (and have more fun).

Fennwitty

Excellent use case for why set reconstruction's a good idea, and why I think the costs proposed are appropriate. Just the other day I got an alt to 50 and immediately spent the next 2 hours scraping together the non-crafted sets I was interested in.

I had a ton of set pieces in my storage, but not exactly the right ones to get both 5-set bonuses at once. Turns out I had 4 different chest pieces of *both* sets, but obviously can only can wear one chest at a time!

I was short just a few pieces, but I had already farmed and use those pieces on a different character. I really didn't want to go back and farm them again. And I didn't want to strip one character to equip the other.

So instead I ran around to guild traders filling out two other sets I had some pieces for to at least have full set bonuses. Note I also transmuted some monster pieces from my inventory as well.

Now if I was able to fill in the few missing pieces for what I had already by cloning gear already on my other character, it would have been much simpler to get set up and I would have had time to run pledges with the new toon the same day.

I estimate that if the set collection was live today, reconstructing the missing pieces from my original plan + the transmutes of monster pieces/existing pieces would have cost about 300-400 crystals. And this is while already having most of the set pieces I wanted in acceptable traits.

(Yes you can say I didn't plan well, and/or could have gone with crafted sets instead. But I'm tired of crafted and my inventory's already full of so much miscellaneous "maybe one day" gear it's hard to know what I do and don't have available that can work together!)

starkerealm

richo262 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

Like I said, the fact that you need every piece of gear from the set hardly matters - because it's only a matter of time before you collect them all. And once you do, farming for gear will be a waste of time when you can just reconstruct for 25 stones.

Except, that's exactly what the situation is on live. Once you've farmed a set to the point where you've literally seen every piece of it drop, you've already seen every piece of it. There really is no point in farming further. You've either gotten the traits you want, or gotten enough of the traits that you want that retraiting the remaining pieces would be cheaper.

And we're talking a WHOLE LOT of farming to get every weapon type, most of which you'll never use. Just think of the grind to get the weapon you DO want, and multiply it by a factor of 10 or so.

Not really, it tends to be the opposite in fact. When you don't get a weapon you want, you tend to get something you don't want, and that will frequently count towards ticking off the boxes. How many times have you gotten something utterly stupid like a Jailbreaker's Ice Staff and just vendored or deconned the thing ten minutes later? Because now, that goes into your collection and becomes a permanent discount for that set.

As somebody who has experimented with some very off-spec gear setups (like S&B Infallible) you will certainly notice a lot of weird drops that would have gotten crunched without a second thought before.

Remember, every time you get a weapon drop, you get a weapon drop, and 90% of the time, it's garbage you don't want... except now, that garbage will still be useful for reducing the costs on sets.

Also don't forget, every dungeon you run, there are 3 other people also getting garbage Dungeons and trials will end with garbage trading for set collections. I'm pretty sure these things are going to unlock faster than many think. Overworld will prob be a pain but guild stores will probably stock it all anyway.

And 11 others in Trials. You will see a lot of garbage from trial sets if you're looking. Like I said, when I was setting up Infal and Mending for tank setups, it was shockingly easy to collect the weapons I wanted because nobody else wanted those weapons.

Fennwitty

Baseline theoretical figures, with apologies math isn't my strongsuit:

A full set of gear is between 12 and 14 pieces. Two-handed weapons would get you 10 armor/jewels +2 weapons, 1-h/shield would get you to 10 armor/jewels + 4 handhelds. Let's average it to 13 pieces of gear.

To create 13 pieces (full equipment, both bars) for a single gear setup for a single character ...

A. Player has only a little of each set collected = 13 x 75 = 975 transmute crystals.

B. Player has about half of each set collected = 13 x 50 = 650 transmute crystals (more crystals than non ESO+ can carry at a single time under new system)

C. Player has already a full collection of each set = 13 x 25 = 325 transmute crystals.


Yes there's probable savings where players reconstruct special weapons that cost less (Maelstrom/Antiquities), but high level characters also tend to use multiple sets based on the situation and will need extra for that.

DaveMoeDee

chuynh729 wrote: »

Mappy2kx wrote: »

Why do you care so much ! If was expensive I'm sure the players whould complained a lot , so now when is OK ishhh , because the main price is starting from 75 and going down if you have all the items from that set . So , who do you think has all the items ? And the jewels ! Gizzz ! I think the avaregeost would be around 35-45 trans stones , because not everyone will have all the pieces from the desired set! So , 25 is ok ! I would prefered to pay the crafting mats and not the trans stones !

Like I said, the fact that you need every piece of gear from the set hardly matters - because it's only a matter of time before you collect them all. And once you do, farming for gear will be a waste of time when you can just reconstruct for 25 stones.

100 stones to reconstruct any piece of gear, with any trait, is not "expensive". It's a fair price to pay (and even a low one honestly, for things like vDSA / vMA weapons). 25 on the other hand is simply too low. Transmuting costs double that.

I care because I don't want dungeons & trials to be irrelevant a few months down the line (aside from grinding achievements), once people have already collected every gear piece.

Farming for gear like that should go away. Especially farming for gear you deconned 2 years ago because the set was trash back then.

If you lack content, we should be pushing the devs to release more content, not asking for systems to get people to repeat the same content over and over and over and over and over...

Joy_Division

chuynh729 wrote: »

This might be an unpopular opinion.

But I don't understand why the ability to create any gear, with any trait, should cost only 25 transmute stones (and no trait stones). Right now, simply just altering the trait of an already existing item costs 50 transmute stones. With such a low cost, wouldn't this new system make the current transmutation system pointless?

I understand 25 transmute stones is the cost only if you've unlocked every piece of gear from the set. But in my opinion, that "downside" is largely irrelevant because it would only be a matter of time before people get to that point. Part of the fun of this game (and every MMO) is the grind - few things make me as excited as when the last piece of gear I needed finally drops. The reconstruction system will be fun for the first few weeks when people are still collecting gear. But afterwards, a large part of the motivation for doing dungeons, trials, or other content will be almost entirely gone because they can simply "craft" the gear. It'll be a grind for transmute stones. Why spend 20-30 minutes running a dungeon or trial when I can get tier 1 in Cyrodiil campaign and be guaranteed any 2 pieces of a gear set with BiS trait in the same amount of time?

Don't get me wrong - I think the recollection & reconstruction systems are amazing. I can finally clear my bank of the 300 pieces of gear that I saved without worrying about "what if" scenarios.
Sometimes the grind for a single piece of gear is so bad that I don't even feel happy when I finally get it - but rather, "finally, what a **** waste of time". I would love to have the option to avoid those kind of grinds. But I also want the cost to be significant enough that I actually have to think about whether or not it's worth the transmute stones. With a cost of only 25 stones, which is literally half the cost of transmuting an off-trait weapon, the choice is obvious. Getting the weapon you're looking for already requires luck. But you'll also need to roll the right trait to make running the content worth it over simply reconstructing it, because transmuting costs double the amount of stones.

I think a minimum cost of somewhere around 100 transmute stones to reconstruct an item would be much better.

You're not necessarily wrong and I'm sure it's not popular.

All the thought, incentives, (and potential economy) that was supposed to accompany jewelry crafting is irrelevant because whenever I need any jewelry trait, it's just 25 trans stones.

starkerealm

Joy_Division wrote: »

chuynh729 wrote: »

This might be an unpopular opinion.

But I don't understand why the ability to create any gear, with any trait, should cost only 25 transmute stones (and no trait stones). Right now, simply just altering the trait of an already existing item costs 50 transmute stones. With such a low cost, wouldn't this new system make the current transmutation system pointless?

I understand 25 transmute stones is the cost only if you've unlocked every piece of gear from the set. But in my opinion, that "downside" is largely irrelevant because it would only be a matter of time before people get to that point. Part of the fun of this game (and every MMO) is the grind - few things make me as excited as when the last piece of gear I needed finally drops. The reconstruction system will be fun for the first few weeks when people are still collecting gear. But afterwards, a large part of the motivation for doing dungeons, trials, or other content will be almost entirely gone because they can simply "craft" the gear. It'll be a grind for transmute stones. Why spend 20-30 minutes running a dungeon or trial when I can get tier 1 in Cyrodiil campaign and be guaranteed any 2 pieces of a gear set with BiS trait in the same amount of time?

Don't get me wrong - I think the recollection & reconstruction systems are amazing. I can finally clear my bank of the 300 pieces of gear that I saved without worrying about "what if" scenarios.
Sometimes the grind for a single piece of gear is so bad that I don't even feel happy when I finally get it - but rather, "finally, what a **** waste of time". I would love to have the option to avoid those kind of grinds. But I also want the cost to be significant enough that I actually have to think about whether or not it's worth the transmute stones. With a cost of only 25 stones, which is literally half the cost of transmuting an off-trait weapon, the choice is obvious. Getting the weapon you're looking for already requires luck. But you'll also need to roll the right trait to make running the content worth it over simply reconstructing it, because transmuting costs double the amount of stones.

I think a minimum cost of somewhere around 100 transmute stones to reconstruct an item would be much better.

You're not necessarily wrong and I'm sure it's not popular.

All the thought, incentives, (and potential economy) that was supposed to accompany jewelry crafting is irrelevant because whenever I need any jewelry trait, it's just 25 trans stones.

Not quite. It's 25 trait stones + whatever upgrade mats you need. If you want gold jewelry, that's still going to be (at least) 4 chromium plates. Overland sets reconstruct at green rarity, dungeon and trial sets reconstruct at blue, and perfected sets reconstruct at purple. Basically, any reconstructed item will start at it's lowest possible quality it would naturally appear at, and you'll need to pay the upgrade mats to start with it at a higher tier. (Now, that can be done from the menu, but that cost still has to be applied.)

This does mean that, yes, some perfected sets would only cost transmute gems if you wanted them at purple... but you were never going to upgrade those to purple anyway, as that's what they drop at.

starkerealm

@Joy_Division, for a slightly more extended view:



You need to spend to spend upgrade mats.



Different items default to different rarities.



And, characters need to have researched a trait in order to reconstruct an item with that trait.

Which, does bring us to the idea of breaking the jewelry economy. We still need upgrade mats, we still need the research, the only thing this bypasses is the trait stones themselves, but that was already happening, because outside of crafted sets, you'd just transmute to the desired trait, because Jewelry has non-randomized traits to begin with.

EDIT: Also notice that the upgrade discount passives also apply to this. So we're heavily incentivized to reconstitute using our crafters.

UtopianWarrior88

From how I read it it wouldn't really require people to unlock gear at cap level - that means that people are more willing to run in dungeons for gear with low levels, since you can reconstruct the drop at the level you need. So when that lvl 46 gets a z'en inferno staff, you can still get it to reconstruct later. Less 'insta-kick' when you're not max gear CP.
That's really worth something.

starkerealm

UtopianWarrior88 wrote: »

From how I read it it wouldn't really require people to unlock gear at cap level - that means that people are more willing to run in dungeons for gear with low levels, since you can reconstruct the drop at the level you need. So when that lvl 46 gets a z'en inferno staff, you can still get it to reconstruct later. Less 'insta-kick' when you're not max gear CP.
That's really worth something.

Correct. This really does look like feedback to the criticism that we had to tell players not to farm until they hit 160, because they gear they get will be scrap. Instead, low level gear can now be replaced with higher level copies without requiring further farming (beyond the crystal costs.) And, because you get 25 crystals back for deconning a reconstructed item, you can also use drop sets as you level (to some degree.)

Elvenheart

Once long ago, on a low level character I got the coveted BSW inferno staff before I knew what it was or paid attention to sets. Do I still have it? No. Once I got into learning about sets, have I ever gotten it since? No. Have I been trying? Yes, in some cases one daily attempt, or more if it’s a pledge that day. Am I kicking myself now? Yes, because if I had saved it it would unlock in my sticker book for all time and the grind would finally be over 🤪

starkerealm

Elvenheart wrote: »

Once long ago, on a low level character I got the coveted BSW inferno staff before I knew what it was or paid attention to sets. Do I still have it? No. Once I got into learning about sets, have I ever gotten it since? No. Have I been trying? Yes, in some cases one daily attempt, or more if it’s a pledge that day. Am I kicking myself now? Yes, because if I had saved it it would unlock in my sticker book for all time and the grind would finally be over 🤪

In fairness, that was my third. I've never managed to successfully help someone else farm it, though.

Elvenheart

starkerealm wrote: »

Elvenheart wrote: »

Once long ago, on a low level character I got the coveted BSW inferno staff before I knew what it was or paid attention to sets. Do I still have it? No. Once I got into learning about sets, have I ever gotten it since? No. Have I been trying? Yes, in some cases one daily attempt, or more if it’s a pledge that day. Am I kicking myself now? Yes, because if I had saved it it would unlock in my sticker book for all time and the grind would finally be over 🤪

In fairness, that was my third. I've never managed to successfully help someone else farm it, though.

I’m going to save that picture because with the luck I’ve had that will be the closest I’ll ever get to seeing it 😔

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Anything that reduce the grind is nice
Grinding is the worst part of the game

stefj68

well cost is still to high, # pieces required to pay less then 50 transmute crystal is already a hard farm

golden items not worth decostructing to eventually reconstructingh

not really a space saver, unless u want to farm set you have no intention to use right now

starkerealm

stefj68 wrote: »

well cost is still to high, # pieces required to pay less then 50 transmute crystal is already a hard farm

golden items not worth decostructing to eventually reconstructingh

not really a space saver, unless u want to farm set you have no intention to use right now

That's kind of the point. It'll unlock for sets you probably don't care about while you're farming for the stuff you do want. If, down the line, you decide you want the old sets back, you can reconstruct them then.