Ring of the Pale Order / OP or NOT OP?

Kurat

Its OP imo. I'm an average player and with this equipped I didn't even have to slot a self heal skill while soloing vet dungeons. My hp never dropped below 90%. It won't save you from 1 shots or if you stand stupid but the heal amount is insane when fighting trash, and most bosses have some sort of adds. I tried the new arena on vet and was stuck at last boss for 2 hours. I just couldn't stay alive with all the adds sniping and etc. When I went in more tanky then I didn't have enough dps to clear the wall and adds piled up also. Like I said I'm an average pug lol. Then I used the ring and cleared 1st try.
It needs to be toned down to like 5%. And I'm sure it will be nerfed totally useless after next patch. See what happened to stranglers. I took me hours of fishing to get stranglers. I'm not gonna make the same mistake with the ring. It's just a bite object for the dlc.

Waffennacht

Kurat wrote: »

Its OP imo. I'm an average player and with this equipped I didn't even have to slot a self heal skill while soloing vet dungeons. My hp never dropped below 90%. It won't save you from 1 shots or if you stand stupid but the heal amount is insane when fighting trash, and most bosses have some sort of adds. I tried the new arena on vet and was stuck at last boss for 2 hours. I just couldn't stay alive with all the adds sniping and etc. When I went in more tanky then I didn't have enough dps to clear the wall and adds piled up also. Like I said I'm an average pug lol. Then I used the ring and cleared 1st try.
It needs to be toned down to like 5%. And I'm sure it will be nerfed totally useless after next patch. See what happened to stranglers. I took me hours of fishing to get stranglers. I'm not gonna make the same mistake with the ring. It's just a bite object for the dlc.

If you couldnt solo vet dungeons before the ring; it was a you problem.

MashmalloMan

Waffennacht wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Its OP imo. I'm an average player and with this equipped I didn't even have to slot a self heal skill while soloing vet dungeons. My hp never dropped below 90%. It won't save you from 1 shots or if you stand stupid but the heal amount is insane when fighting trash, and most bosses have some sort of adds. I tried the new arena on vet and was stuck at last boss for 2 hours. I just couldn't stay alive with all the adds sniping and etc. When I went in more tanky then I didn't have enough dps to clear the wall and adds piled up also. Like I said I'm an average pug lol. Then I used the ring and cleared 1st try.
It needs to be toned down to like 5%. And I'm sure it will be nerfed totally useless after next patch. See what happened to stranglers. I took me hours of fishing to get stranglers. I'm not gonna make the same mistake with the ring. It's just a bite object for the dlc.

If you couldnt solo vet dungeons before the ring; it was a you problem.

Thats a pretty snobby elitest thing to say to someone who mentioned more than once that they're a casual player. In their personal experience the ring carried them for a minimal sacrifice. We've seen items nerfed for much worse.

mb10

typical issue this ring has is op in pve but not in pvp. Like 6% healing in pvp from dmg isnt great

Kurat

Waffennacht wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Its OP imo. I'm an average player and with this equipped I didn't even have to slot a self heal skill while soloing vet dungeons. My hp never dropped below 90%. It won't save you from 1 shots or if you stand stupid but the heal amount is insane when fighting trash, and most bosses have some sort of adds. I tried the new arena on vet and was stuck at last boss for 2 hours. I just couldn't stay alive with all the adds sniping and etc. When I went in more tanky then I didn't have enough dps to clear the wall and adds piled up also. Like I said I'm an average pug lol. Then I used the ring and cleared 1st try.
It needs to be toned down to like 5%. And I'm sure it will be nerfed totally useless after next patch. See what happened to stranglers. I took me hours of fishing to get stranglers. I'm not gonna make the same mistake with the ring. It's just a bite object for the dlc.

If you couldnt solo vet dungeons before the ring; it was a you problem.

Nice.

I didn't say I can't solo vets without the ring. It's just alot easier. It frees up skill slot coz theres no need for any heal ability and thus also improves sustain alot. Even uber elitists like you still need some form of healing when soloing. And for people who currently cant solo dungeons or more difficult WBs, this ring makes it possible. Its almost game breaking imo. You dont need 90k dps to get heals. Even if you only do 10k, you heal 1500 per sec. And that's single target. If there's few adds then the heal is easily tripled. Its impossible to die if you constantly receive 5k ticks, just gotta move around and dps.

YandereGirlfriend

The nerflings will never rest until everything is a bland grey paste of useless.

Kardrik

The thing that irritates me the most about the existence of this ring is that this general kind of perk is *Exactly* what Vampires need to make their skill line viable.
So why is it here, in a freakin Ring, and not in the skill tree!
Why can't this be in the Vampire tree, or attached to Vampire abilities only, or something like that?
The self heal that vampires need, that is pretty much meant for vamp characters, is now a slot that any fool can put on and sacrifice their monster set or something.

Skullstachio

In PVP without most modifiers, you will heal for 6% of damage done after the healing reduction from battle spirit, and taking into account the 50% damage reduction granted, means you heal for less than what I indicated previously. modify correctly in the aftermath and it may be partly alleviated with some elbow grease.

Also a question that needs attention, but are some of the parts locked behind PVP, because if it isn’t, many players would appreciate it as not everybody is eccentrically PVP material and prefer the PVE aspect of the elder scrolls. (Plus it would just be flamin wrong.)

Kardrik

Now that I think about it, now if they *DO* add some meaningful selfheals into the vampire tree, it will be OP with this ring.

There go my dreams of having Vampires heal themselves by damaging their enemies.

Trinotops

The healing isn't affected by battle spirit. It heals for 16% or potentially more with CP and healing bonuses. I don't really mind since it doesn't seem to work with most proc sets (I only found a few that worked) and also because major mending and vitality were nerfed. If it didn't work with any proc sets at all then I don't think it would be too OP in its current state.

Aznarb

Kurat wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Its OP imo. I'm an average player and with this equipped I didn't even have to slot a self heal skill while soloing vet dungeons. My hp never dropped below 90%. It won't save you from 1 shots or if you stand stupid but the heal amount is insane when fighting trash, and most bosses have some sort of adds. I tried the new arena on vet and was stuck at last boss for 2 hours. I just couldn't stay alive with all the adds sniping and etc. When I went in more tanky then I didn't have enough dps to clear the wall and adds piled up also. Like I said I'm an average pug lol. Then I used the ring and cleared 1st try.
It needs to be toned down to like 5%. And I'm sure it will be nerfed totally useless after next patch. See what happened to stranglers. I took me hours of fishing to get stranglers. I'm not gonna make the same mistake with the ring. It's just a bite object for the dlc.

If you couldnt solo vet dungeons before the ring; it was a you problem.

Nice.

I didn't say I can't solo vets without the ring. It's just alot easier. It frees up skill slot coz theres no need for any heal ability and thus also improves sustain alot. Even uber elitists like you still need some form of healing when soloing. And for people who currently cant solo dungeons or more difficult WBs, this ring makes it possible. Its almost game breaking imo. You dont need 90k dps to get heals. Even if you only do 10k, you heal 1500 per sec. And that's single target. If there's few adds then the heal is easily tripled. Its impossible to die if you constantly receive 5k ticks, just gotta move around and dps.

You just described how OP it is.
And, ofc it's op. It like the Mag Jab heal Templar got on his spammable who is already know to be stupidly easy.
Now add this effect on any skill and dot in a 1pc bonus. Yup, seem balance :>
I can already see many boss/trial where 10dd 2tank // 11dd 1tank are gonna be meta.

Extinct_Solo_Player

Trinotops wrote: »

The healing isn't affected by battle spirit. It heals for 16% or potentially more with CP and healing bonuses. I don't really mind since it doesn't seem to work with most proc sets (I only found a few that worked) and also because major mending and vitality were nerfed. If it didn't work with any proc sets at all then I don't think it would be too OP in its current state.

i just tried that ring with ritual, 7 divines mending vitality etc and healed for around 200-263 on npcs which is pretty lackluster considering that number would be halved vs actual players with higher resistances etc

Kurat

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

The nerflings will never rest until everything is a bland grey paste of useless.

I'd rather they nerf it now before it goes live than later after I farmed it for several days. You need to get leads for 5 fragments. That's gonna be pain like it was to get stranglers and only to see it nerfed useless later. And it will get nerfed, guaranteed. Theres no way they leave it like this for more than 1 patch cycle. Dont get me wrong, I would like if they kept it as is and had kept stranglers, I just dont wanna grind for nothing.

Waffennacht

I mean you can nerf it. It wont be used in trials (as experienced trial runners explained before) and the rest of PvE doesnt really matter.

All nerfing it does is hurt the mediocre solo/PuG pve player; [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Trinotops

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

i just tried that ring with ritual, 7 divines mending vitality etc and healed for around 200-263 on npcs which is pretty lackluster considering that number would be halved vs actual players with higher resistances etc

I'd say the problem is that you're stacking healing bonuses instead of damage. On a robust skeleton my unbuffed light attacks were healing for about 630 and while fully buffed they were healing for about 1000, and this is on a pvp setup. So that would be like 300-500 a second in pvp (since I won't always have major mending, weapon proc, etc up) not even taking in crits, abilities, and dots into account. Seems like one of those sets that could be really strong on certain builds and not on others.

Daffen

mb10 wrote: »

typical issue this ring has is op in pve but not in pvp. Like 6% healing in pvp from dmg isnt great

I assume it will still heal for 15% of damage done like other abilities like swallow soul. They dont double dip in battlespirit, only from the 50% reduced damage taken. We will need someone to confirm this as i have not tested anything, im just assuming.

Iron_Blurr

In it's current iteration the ring is really Overpowered.
My solution would be to make the healing a flat amount when you deal damage. Or at the very least give it an upper ceiling for the healing it does. The healing numbers are fine until you consider that dps can pull 90k+ dps in trial settings. And that's not even counting aoe damage with multiple enemies stacked together.
Remove the % and make it a flat amount or upward ceiling of some kind.

relentless_turnip

Trinotops wrote: »

The healing isn't affected by battle spirit. It heals for 16% or potentially more with CP and healing bonuses. I don't really mind since it doesn't seem to work with most proc sets (I only found a few that worked) and also because major mending and vitality were nerfed. If it didn't work with any proc sets at all then I don't think it would be too OP in its current state.

Have you tested this in a duel on the PTS?
I was curious how much healing it would add in PvP, but wasn't going to do PTS until the EU character copy.

Trinotops

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Trinotops wrote: »

The healing isn't affected by battle spirit. It heals for 16% or potentially more with CP and healing bonuses. I don't really mind since it doesn't seem to work with most proc sets (I only found a few that worked) and also because major mending and vitality were nerfed. If it didn't work with any proc sets at all then I don't think it would be too OP in its current state.

Have you tested this in a duel on the PTS?
I was curious how much healing it would add in PvP, but wasn't going to do PTS until the EU character copy.

Yeah, tested it against a player. The healing was not halved, in fact I was healing for about 18%-19% of damage done. I did an actual, proper 1v1 and the healing was barely noticeable even on stam dk, but I'm sure it will be better when fighting multiple players. Also it doesn't seem to work with poisons or status effects, so that likely contributed to as to why I didn't feel the healing very much.

relentless_turnip

Trinotops wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Trinotops wrote: »

The healing isn't affected by battle spirit. It heals for 16% or potentially more with CP and healing bonuses. I don't really mind since it doesn't seem to work with most proc sets (I only found a few that worked) and also because major mending and vitality were nerfed. If it didn't work with any proc sets at all then I don't think it would be too OP in its current state.

Have you tested this in a duel on the PTS?
I was curious how much healing it would add in PvP, but wasn't going to do PTS until the EU character copy.

Yeah, tested it against a player. The healing was not halved, in fact I was healing for about 18%-19% of damage done. I did an actual, proper 1v1 and the healing was barely noticeable even on stam dk, but I'm sure it will be better when fighting multiple players. Also it doesn't seem to work with poisons or status effects, so that likely contributed to as to why I didn't feel the healing very much.

Very interesting, I imagine if it eliminates a lot of the passive damage from procs and status effects etc... that's pretty balanced for pvp. Thanks for testing!

carlos424

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I'm sorry but the video didn't really clarify anything for the major questions I've seen, not that it's OP's job or something, but there is already a couple threads about this topic, so I fail to see the difference or revelance of this thread.

The major questions I've seen are:

1. Does the 15% heal get double dipped by battle spirit? (Damage -50%, healing -60%)
   • Imo, it shouldn't because ZOS has gone out of their way in the past, to make sure other sources of healing from damage, only gets hit once from the -50% damage, not the -60% healing.
2. Is it affected by proc sets?
   • Imo it should, I think that makes for unique synergy and further adding any restrictions kills the idea behind the set.
3. These 2 are probably obvious, but I think they're worth clarifying. Is their a cooldown and does it heal from dots?
   • Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there is no CD and it does heal from dots.

I haven't gotten to test it myself, but if someone knows the answers to the above questions, I'm sure you'd be helping others with the same thoughts.

My conclusion on how it should work:

• Does not double dip from battlespirit, in line with their current mechanics.
• Does heal from proc sets.
• Does heal from any damage tick, dot, direct, no CD.
• With the above 3 points in mind. 15% is too strong. I think it should be 10% which would be more in line with something like Crit Surge (3.3k base healing per second, can crit, averaging about 5.5-6k a second).

Of course, with crit surge you can be healed by others, plus you don’t lose a 5-piece bonus. So what would be the point of having the ring?

Saubon

Kardrik wrote: »

The thing that irritates me the most about the existence of this ring is that this general kind of perk is *Exactly* what Vampires need to make their skill line viable.
So why is it here, in a freakin Ring, and not in the skill tree!
Why can't this be in the Vampire tree, or attached to Vampire abilities only, or something like that?
The self heal that vampires need, that is pretty much meant for vamp characters, is now a slot that any fool can put on and sacrifice their monster set or something.

I'd like to use the ring without being a vampire, stam classes usually have very little benefit from being a vampire.

Danksta

I think people saying that this will see no use in trials are not doing the math on this. It's not uncommon to see high end DPS groups have players pulling 100k+ DPS. That would be 15k healing per second. If nothing else it will definitely get use in trash pulls on PC, where the healing from this ring alone would be complete overkill.

Jodynn

Lagging with a half broken controller so ignore the terrible lps..

I stay mostly at full health until after around 20 stacks of frenzy even using blood for blood, which you could easily toggle off at this point then re-toggle.



EDIT:

Be interesting to see vampire actually have a purpose in end game.

Xebov

Kurat wrote: »

Its OP imo. I'm an average player and with this equipped I didn't even have to slot a self heal skill while soloing vet dungeons. My hp never dropped below 90%. It won't save you from 1 shots or if you stand stupid but the heal amount is insane when fighting trash, and most bosses have some sort of adds. I tried the new arena on vet and was stuck at last boss for 2 hours. I just couldn't stay alive with all the adds sniping and etc. When I went in more tanky then I didn't have enough dps to clear the wall and adds piled up also. Like I said I'm an average pug lol. Then I used the ring and cleared 1st try.
It needs to be toned down to like 5%. And I'm sure it will be nerfed totally useless after next patch. See what happened to stranglers. I took me hours of fishing to get stranglers. I'm not gonna make the same mistake with the ring. It's just a bite object for the dlc.

Thats not relevant. Doing vet dungeons solo is already possible. The game only changed a bit for you because this item enables you to do it. In reality this is completely irrelevant as solo vet dungeons are nothing the game is made for. They are a challenge made by players and this ring will not lead to mass solo runs.

Danksta wrote: »

I think people saying that this will see no use in trials are not doing the math on this. It's not uncommon to see high end DPS groups have players pulling 100k+ DPS. That would be 15k healing per second. If nothing else it will definitely get use in trash pulls on PC, where the healing from this ring alone would be complete overkill.

Ppl that say it will see no use in trials are looking at the full picture not some narrow piece of it. You just look at DDs in a specific situation. You completely ignore Tanks, Healers, Buff Sets and DPS.
Lets take your trash pull example. The Tanks are tanking the heavy hitters, so they get the most of the damage. The ring will not change anything about it. The DDs on the other hand are largely either one hits through mechanics or they just take some damage that can easily be healed by any Healer. The Healers are still needed for the Tanks and for their Buffs. So what does the ring add to the table that isnt already covered?

The problem is that alot of ppl seem to quickly calculate the potential heal without thinking abour the rest of the group or the variables of fights that determent if the heal even has an impact. I could slap this thing on a DD that heals for 15K per second without taking any damage at all during the whole fight so the heal would be there but it would change nothing. Thats why its important to look at all things involved, not only at a small piece.

ExistingRug61

MashmalloMan wrote: »

The major questions I've seen are:

1. Does the 15% heal get double dipped by battle spirit? (Damage -50%, healing -60%)
   • Imo, it shouldn't because ZOS has gone out of their way in the past, to make sure other sources of healing from damage, only gets hit once from the -50% damage, not the -60% healing.

@MashmalloMan
Now, take this with a grain of salt as its been a while since I tested and I may not be remembering correctly, but it isn't quite as simple as this for healing from damage abilities. While they aren't double reduced by the two battle spirit reductions, I'm fairly sure the heals from these abilities are affected by the -60% healing rather than the -50% damage part of it.
ie: Rather than the heal being calculated at full value from the post-battle spirit damage (which is reduced by 50%), the heal is calculated from the pre-battle spirit damage and then reduced by the healing reduction of 60%.

For example, take swallow soul, which heals for 35% of the damage done (with no other healing modifiers). If I hit someone for 5k with this in PvP, the heal isn't simply 5k*0.35 = 1.75k. Rather it is 10k*0.35*(1-0.6)=1.4k (10k being the damage I would have done without battle spirit).

Another way of looking at this is the heals from all of these healing from damage abilities is that rather than simply healing for the listed percentage of the damage number you see when you hit the opposing player, there is an additional factor of
(1-healing reduction from battle spirit)/(1-damage reduction from battle spirit) = 0.8
that gets applied.

I'm fairly sure it works this way as back when the battle spirit healing was changed from -50% to -60%, knowing that healing from damage abilities weren't double reduced, I wondered if maybe the way ZOS had coded it would have meant that these abilities heals may not have been reduced (if they simply calculated from the post battle spirit damage), and likewise healing ward may not have had its heals changed (as this heals based on the damage shield size which also wasn't reduced). So I tested it to check if I could be clever and circumvent the healing reduction by using all of these sorts of abilities, but it turns out all of these sources of healing were reduced as well. Which I guess makes sense as it means all healing was affected equally.

Now as to what this means for the Ring of the Pale Order. Assuming it follows the same approach, this will mean that effectively it will heal for 15%*0.8 = 12% of the damage you see in PvP.

ExistingRug61

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Lagging with a half broken controller so ignore the terrible lps..

I stay mostly at full health until after around 20 stacks of frenzy even using blood for blood, which you could easily toggle off at this point then re-toggle.



EDIT:

Be interesting to see vampire actually have a purpose in end game.

@brandoncoffmannub18_ESO
Quick question off topic, does the weapon/spell damage increase from simmering frenzy keep increasing indefinitely? (I know the cost increase does, but wasn't sure about the damage).

Because if it does, then it is theoretically possible to use enough multiplicative multipliers and tri cost reduction glyphs such that the increased damage you get from frenzy provides an increase in healing that outpaces the health cost increase, resulting in frenzy being sustainable indefinitely (until its cost simply becomes higher than your total health)

I previously theorised a couple of builds as a thought experiment to see if this was possible - using high crit and high crit damage as the main multiplicative multipliers (as well as some healing done/received, but crit is better as it also helps damage) in conjunction with the tri cost reduction glyphs. One was a stamblade that healed by doing damage using bloodthirst, blood craze and vigor, another being a petsorc sorc with regen and healing ward to heal and pets and the occasional frag for damage. In thoery these builds could reach some truly ridiculous weapon/spell damage, but I couldn't actually test them I don't have the gear and couldn't be bothered farming it just to test this (and can't use PTS as am on Xbox). Ring of the Pale Order actually would make such a build easier to achieve with less compromise, (although the crit chance nerfs have hindered them a bit) but I still don't know if it is even close to viable.

MashmalloMan

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

The major questions I've seen are:

1. Does the 15% heal get double dipped by battle spirit? (Damage -50%, healing -60%)
   • Imo, it shouldn't because ZOS has gone out of their way in the past, to make sure other sources of healing from damage, only gets hit once from the -50% damage, not the -60% healing.

@MashmalloMan
Now, take this with a grain of salt as its been a while since I tested and I may not be remembering correctly, but it isn't quite as simple as this for healing from damage abilities. While they aren't double reduced by the two battle spirit reductions, I'm fairly sure the heals from these abilities are affected by the -60% healing rather than the -50% damage part of it.
ie: Rather than the heal being calculated at full value from the post-battle spirit damage (which is reduced by 50%), the heal is calculated from the pre-battle spirit damage and then reduced by the healing reduction of 60%.

For example, take swallow soul, which heals for 35% of the damage done (with no other healing modifiers). If I hit someone for 5k with this in PvP, the heal isn't simply 5k*0.35 = 1.75k. Rather it is 10k*0.35*(1-0.6)=1.4k (10k being the damage I would have done without battle spirit).

Another way of looking at this is the heals from all of these healing from damage abilities is that rather than simply healing for the listed percentage of the damage number you see when you hit the opposing player, there is an additional factor of
(1-healing reduction from battle spirit)/(1-damage reduction from battle spirit) = 0.8
that gets applied.

I'm fairly sure it works this way as back when the battle spirit healing was changed from -50% to -60%, knowing that healing from damage abilities weren't double reduced, I wondered if maybe the way ZOS had coded it would have meant that these abilities heals may not have been reduced (if they simply calculated from the post battle spirit damage), and likewise healing ward may not have had its heals changed (as this heals based on the damage shield size which also wasn't reduced). So I tested it to check if I could be clever and circumvent the healing reduction by using all of these sorts of abilities, but it turns out all of these sources of healing were reduced as well. Which I guess makes sense as it means all healing was affected equally.

Now as to what this means for the Ring of the Pale Order. Assuming it follows the same approach, this will mean that effectively it will heal for 15%*0.8 = 12% of the damage you see in PvP.

@ExistingRug61 Thank you for this, very well thought out and explained. Took me a couple reads to find out where you got the 80% from, but that seems to be pretty accurate, especially now that healing reduction on battlespirit is no longer the exact same number for damage reduction. Logically speaking, it should be based on the -60% from BS, not the -50%.

Maybe I can find someone to enter cyro with sometime to test a light attack or 2 lol.

Hotdog_23

Nice info here no opinion but it would be nice if ZOS would add a target PVP dummy to test such things that MashmalloMan and ExistingRug61 are talking about. Players could also work on burst combo's easier with varies builds.

Be safe and have fun

Jodynn

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Lagging with a half broken controller so ignore the terrible lps..

I stay mostly at full health until after around 20 stacks of frenzy even using blood for blood, which you could easily toggle off at this point then re-toggle.



EDIT:

Be interesting to see vampire actually have a purpose in end game.

@brandoncoffmannub18_ESO
Quick question off topic, does the weapon/spell damage increase from simmering frenzy keep increasing indefinitely? (I know the cost increase does, but wasn't sure about the damage).

Because if it does, then it is theoretically possible to use enough multiplicative multipliers and tri cost reduction glyphs such that the increased damage you get from frenzy provides an increase in healing that outpaces the health cost increase, resulting in frenzy being sustainable indefinitely (until its cost simply becomes higher than your total health)

I previously theorised a couple of builds as a thought experiment to see if this was possible - using high crit and high crit damage as the main multiplicative multipliers (as well as some healing done/received, but crit is better as it also helps damage) in conjunction with the tri cost reduction glyphs. One was a stamblade that healed by doing damage using bloodthirst, blood craze and vigor, another being a petsorc sorc with regen and healing ward to heal and pets and the occasional frag for damage. In thoery these builds could reach some truly ridiculous weapon/spell damage, but I couldn't actually test them I don't have the gear and couldn't be bothered farming it just to test this (and can't use PTS as am on Xbox). Ring of the Pale Order actually would make such a build easier to achieve with less compromise, (although the crit chance nerfs have hindered them a bit) but I still don't know if it is even close to viable.

The damage increases indefinitely as does the spell/weapon damage.

Once you get to like 30 stacks it starts hurting for like 15k.. so it's probably not viable at that point.