Ring of the Pale Order / OP or NOT OP?

Rezdayn

Here is a video on the "Ring of the Pale Order" new mythic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH3c2CECtpo&ab_channel=Freetality

I will be avoiding giving my own opinion on this item (other than the small things I said in the video) and leaving myself out of this conversation.

Enjoy. Discuss.

relentless_turnip

I think PvP, it will be in good spot with something like a stamsorc or a dot build. I want to try duel with it, I always wait for the EU character copy before I hop on though...

Pve solo it would also be fine and probably just free up a slot in a lot of cases. Outside of pugs I can't see it being used in group play. I can understand a lot of healers being worried about this, but I don't think it will effect the content where healers are needed.

Vevvev

Its is very much a solo players tool as in Trials you'd be cutting yourself out from getting healed by the designated healers, and maybe even losing out on their buffs if one was using spell power cure for example.

In PVP It'd be very detrimental to someone on a battering ram or apart of a ball group since cross healing wouldn't apply and you'd have to single handedly heal through all the damage getting thrown your way.

For casual questing, duels, solo PVP, and 1 tank/3 DD setups I can see this ring being very useful, but of course at the cost of one of your sets.

Sealish

Given that Major Courage is being buffed to provide 430 Spell/Weapon Power and that SPC is far more prevalent than Olorime after the last patch (and always has been in dungeons and pugs) which has the prerequisite of having a healer heal you... I don't think that this will see any use in group play and players that bring it into group scenarios are just shooting themselves in the foot.

Olupajmibanan

With all the procsets going rampage now I don't see using this often instead of Malacath ring. Might be good on a stamsorc tho

On PvE side, will be good for solo and some group content (e.g. tank+3 DD runs). Will have zero use in trials tho.

Bisenberger96

This mythic will allow all dds to run vamp toggle and blood for blood again in almost every trial fight. Consistent spell damage levels higher than that of thrassian will be obtainable in raid. There will be 1 "healer" (a support dd) providing cbp for the dds and healing the tanks. They will wear olo/hollow since spc will not be usable with this ring. If you guys thought thrassian was overturned, just wait until you see what this ring can do.

MashmalloMan

I'm sorry but the video didn't really clarify anything for the major questions I've seen, not that it's OP's job or something, but there is already a couple threads about this topic, so I fail to see the difference or revelance of this thread.

The major questions I've seen are:

1. Does the 15% heal get double dipped by battle spirit? (Damage -50%, healing -60%)
   • Imo, it shouldn't because ZOS has gone out of their way in the past, to make sure other sources of healing from damage, only gets hit once from the -50% damage, not the -60% healing.
2. Is it affected by proc sets?
   • Imo it should, I think that makes for unique synergy and further adding any restrictions kills the idea behind the set.
3. These 2 are probably obvious, but I think they're worth clarifying. Is their a cooldown and does it heal from dots?
   • Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure there is no CD and it does heal from dots.

I haven't gotten to test it myself, but if someone knows the answers to the above questions, I'm sure you'd be helping others with the same thoughts.

My conclusion on how it should work:

• Does not double dip from battlespirit, in line with their current mechanics.
• Does heal from proc sets.
• Does heal from any damage tick, dot, direct, no CD.
• With the above 3 points in mind. 15% is too strong. I think it should be 10% which would be more in line with something like Crit Surge (3.3k base healing per second, can crit, averaging about 5.5-6k a second).

YandereGirlfriend

@MashmalloMan I can live with 10%. But the hysteria has fully taken hold now and some won't be satisfied until it's pre-emtively nerfed into Oblivion. This ring opens up tons of new build possibilities to solo and hybrid players and it would be a tremendous shame to lose it before the patch even hits.

MashmalloMan

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@MashmalloMan I can live with 10%. But the hysteria has fully taken hold now and some won't be satisfied until it's pre-emtively nerfed into Oblivion. This ring opens up tons of new build possibilities to solo and hybrid players and it would be a tremendous shame to lose it before the patch even hits.

We won't lose it. It will either be nerfed to a lower value like my post shows or the mechanics will change, to only support direct damage attacks with a higher value.

If it does double dip in pvp, it's pretty awful, but very strong in pve. Imo, 10% is a fair middle ground for all damage and not double dipping from battlespirit.

You can basically give any class crit surge with this ring for solo play, it's the only heal I need in content like VMA and I already use it in 4man pug dungeons. 6k healing a second is op af.

mikey_reach

Mythics are supposed to feel op to an extent and i think this one is just fine. Pvpwise well ill probably be affected by battle spirit since its pretty much swallow soul in a ring except for less %. And for pve for dungeons ill probably be really strong since a healer can be overlooked a lot, but in a trial environment i rather have healers do the healing since they can also buff/debuff and do a fair amount of dps.

mikey_reach

MashmalloMan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@MashmalloMan I can live with 10%. But the hysteria has fully taken hold now and some won't be satisfied until it's pre-emtively nerfed into Oblivion. This ring opens up tons of new build possibilities to solo and hybrid players and it would be a tremendous shame to lose it before the patch even hits.

We won't lose it. It will either be nerfed to a lower value like my post shows or the mechanics will change, to only support direct damage attacks with a higher value.

If it does double dip in pvp, it's pretty awful, but very strong in pve. Imo, 10% is a fair middle ground for all damage and not double dipping from battlespirit.

You can basically give any class crit surge with this ring for solo play, it's the only heal I need in content like VMA and I already use it in 4man pug dungeons. 6k healing a second is op af.

Im pretty sure it will double dip from battle spirit since we know the damage you deal will be affected by it unless its oblivion. And even though damage is affected by battle spirit the heal component of the ring’s heal should be affected by it too unless they lower the percentage. Its never about what it does on its own and more about how or what can you use it with to make something broken.

TheImperfect

I really love it.

Banana

Might be the first mythic I attempt to get

Waffennacht

If its not good for trials then its not OP in PvE

If you only get around 6% in PvP, ita not worth running in PvP

mb10

i think its good because at 10% im not sure many would consider it

MashmalloMan

mikey_reach wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@MashmalloMan I can live with 10%. But the hysteria has fully taken hold now and some won't be satisfied until it's pre-emtively nerfed into Oblivion. This ring opens up tons of new build possibilities to solo and hybrid players and it would be a tremendous shame to lose it before the patch even hits.

We won't lose it. It will either be nerfed to a lower value like my post shows or the mechanics will change, to only support direct damage attacks with a higher value.

If it does double dip in pvp, it's pretty awful, but very strong in pve. Imo, 10% is a fair middle ground for all damage and not double dipping from battlespirit.

You can basically give any class crit surge with this ring for solo play, it's the only heal I need in content like VMA and I already use it in 4man pug dungeons. 6k healing a second is op af.

Im pretty sure it will double dip from battle spirit since we know the damage you deal will be affected by it unless its oblivion. And even though damage is affected by battle spirit the heal component of the ring’s heal should be affected by it too unless they lower the percentage. Its never about what it does on its own and more about how or what can you use it with to make something broken.

As I stated, ZOS does not want healing from damage skills to double dip. This set would fall under that category as it's directly tied to the amount of damage you do.

This is not a set like Briarheart, where the heal is rightly cut in half. The heal on that set is a specific amount, not tied to how much damage you do, but how many crits you dish out which is not reduced by battlespirit. % healing based on damage done, should not double dip because it ends up being around 20-25% of its original value.

If it does, we have situations where they end up OP AF for pve and weak AF for pvp which seems to be the case here.

mikey_reach

MashmalloMan wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@MashmalloMan I can live with 10%. But the hysteria has fully taken hold now and some won't be satisfied until it's pre-emtively nerfed into Oblivion. This ring opens up tons of new build possibilities to solo and hybrid players and it would be a tremendous shame to lose it before the patch even hits.

We won't lose it. It will either be nerfed to a lower value like my post shows or the mechanics will change, to only support direct damage attacks with a higher value.

If it does double dip in pvp, it's pretty awful, but very strong in pve. Imo, 10% is a fair middle ground for all damage and not double dipping from battlespirit.

You can basically give any class crit surge with this ring for solo play, it's the only heal I need in content like VMA and I already use it in 4man pug dungeons. 6k healing a second is op af.

Im pretty sure it will double dip from battle spirit since we know the damage you deal will be affected by it unless its oblivion. And even though damage is affected by battle spirit the heal component of the ring’s heal should be affected by it too unless they lower the percentage. Its never about what it does on its own and more about how or what can you use it with to make something broken.

As I stated, ZOS does not want healing from damage skills to double dip. This set would fall under that category as it's directly tied to the amount of damage you do.

This is not a set like Briarheart, where the heal is rightly cut in half. The heal on that set is a specific amount, not tied to how much damage you do, but how many crits you dish out which is not reduced by battlespirit. % healing based on damage done, should not double dip because it ends up being around 20-25% of its original value.

If it does, we have situations where they end up OP AF for pve and weak AF for pvp which seems to be the case here.

Then unfortunately it will double dip, baharas curse,swallow soul and ww claws of life also double dips with im sure many other sets that heal based on the amount of damage you do. I kinda like your idea to not double dip with the 10% instead of 15%

MashmalloMan

mikey_reach wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@MashmalloMan I can live with 10%. But the hysteria has fully taken hold now and some won't be satisfied until it's pre-emtively nerfed into Oblivion. This ring opens up tons of new build possibilities to solo and hybrid players and it would be a tremendous shame to lose it before the patch even hits.

We won't lose it. It will either be nerfed to a lower value like my post shows or the mechanics will change, to only support direct damage attacks with a higher value.

If it does double dip in pvp, it's pretty awful, but very strong in pve. Imo, 10% is a fair middle ground for all damage and not double dipping from battlespirit.

You can basically give any class crit surge with this ring for solo play, it's the only heal I need in content like VMA and I already use it in 4man pug dungeons. 6k healing a second is op af.

Im pretty sure it will double dip from battle spirit since we know the damage you deal will be affected by it unless its oblivion. And even though damage is affected by battle spirit the heal component of the ring’s heal should be affected by it too unless they lower the percentage. Its never about what it does on its own and more about how or what can you use it with to make something broken.

As I stated, ZOS does not want healing from damage skills to double dip. This set would fall under that category as it's directly tied to the amount of damage you do.

This is not a set like Briarheart, where the heal is rightly cut in half. The heal on that set is a specific amount, not tied to how much damage you do, but how many crits you dish out which is not reduced by battlespirit. % healing based on damage done, should not double dip because it ends up being around 20-25% of its original value.

If it does, we have situations where they end up OP AF for pve and weak AF for pvp which seems to be the case here.

Then unfortunately it will double dip, baharas curse,swallow soul and ww claws of life also double dips with im sure many other sets that heal based on the amount of damage you do. I kinda like your idea to not double dip with the 10% instead of 15%

Bahraha's Curse, Swallow Soul and WW Claws of Life all have healing based on the damage you do, so they don't double dip. If they do, it's a bug. Please double check that if you're sure.

I can't find any more recent patch notes making this clear on their stance so take it with a grain of salt, but I'm pretty sure there have been some in the patch notes over the years. I personally remember Crushing Weapon from Psijic Order double dipped by mistake at one point. There are also a ton of user made threads between 2015-2019 with multiple players confirming that healing based on damage done is not affected by battlespirit because the initial damage is already reduced by -50%.

Why should Ring of the Pale Order be any different?

August 2015 Imperial City patch:

Several abilities which have damage, damage shield, or healing components that scale off each other will no longer be hit multiple times by Battle Spirit’s reductions. This includes the following abilities:

• Nightblade: Strife (and morphs), Soul Tether
• Templar: Puncturing Sweep, Blazing Shield, Radiant Glory
• Dragonknight: Inhale, Burning Embers
• Sorcerer: Surge
• Mages Guild: Degeneration
• Restoration Staff: Healing Ward

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/212035/pc-mac-patch-notes-v2-1-4#latest

MashmalloMan

mb10 wrote: »

i think its good because at 10% im not sure many would consider it

I would for any class besides stam sorc in solo pve. It's very possible for anyone to hit 40-50k dps solo, classes with more access to major buffs/debuffs can hit close to 60k. 10% of that is 4-6k healing per second which is about equal to the amount of healing that Crit Surge offers stam sorcs, which fully carries us in all solo content, including VMA. Ask and end game stam sorc and they will tell you how powerful it is.

In group content where your damage sky rockets, that 4-6k hps can turn into 6-10k hps.

The above examples are also only with single target in mind.. In any fight where you have multiple ad's, 10% from Pale Order will vastly outperform Crit Surge which only procs once a second and caps out at roulghy 5.5k hps.

So yeah, 15% is too much imo, especially since it's exponential with the amount of enemies you fight.

10% and no double dipping from battle spirit would put it in a much better place for both pve and pvp.

Lone343Wolf

MashmalloMan wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

i think its good because at 10% im not sure many would consider it

I would for any class besides stam sorc in solo pve. It's very possible for anyone to hit 40-50k dps solo, classes with more access to major buffs/debuffs can hit close to 60k. 10% of that is 4-6k healing per second which is about equal to the amount of healing that Crit Surge offers stam sorcs, which fully carries us in all solo content, including VMA. Ask and end game stam sorc and they will tell you how powerful it is.

In group content where your damage sky rockets, that 4-6k hps can turn into 6-10k hps.

The above examples are also only with single target in mind.. In any fight where you have multiple ad's, 10% from Pale Order will vastly outperform Crit Surge which only procs once a second and caps out at roulghy 5.5k hps.

So yeah, 15% is too much imo, especially since it's exponential with the amount of enemies you fight.

10% and no double dipping from battle spirit would put it in a much better place for both pve and pvp.

Have you tested it yet on the PTS? Don’t say something is OP if you have not tested it and if you think theory crafting items around things that havnt been tested then you are part of a larger problem of people wanting nerfs to something you havnt even tested.

Celestro

Lone343Wolf wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

i think its good because at 10% im not sure many would consider it

I would for any class besides stam sorc in solo pve. It's very possible for anyone to hit 40-50k dps solo, classes with more access to major buffs/debuffs can hit close to 60k. 10% of that is 4-6k healing per second which is about equal to the amount of healing that Crit Surge offers stam sorcs, which fully carries us in all solo content, including VMA. Ask and end game stam sorc and they will tell you how powerful it is.

In group content where your damage sky rockets, that 4-6k hps can turn into 6-10k hps.

The above examples are also only with single target in mind.. In any fight where you have multiple ad's, 10% from Pale Order will vastly outperform Crit Surge which only procs once a second and caps out at roulghy 5.5k hps.

So yeah, 15% is too much imo, especially since it's exponential with the amount of enemies you fight.

10% and no double dipping from battle spirit would put it in a much better place for both pve and pvp.

Have you tested it yet on the PTS? Don’t say something is OP if you have not tested it and if you think theory crafting items around things that havnt been tested then you are part of a larger problem of people wanting nerfs to something you havnt even tested.

I mean, his claim lies in comparing the ring to an existing skill that it functions very close to, including having to deal damage to proc the effect (critical damage specifically in the skill's case). As mentioned, regardless of how many instances of damage you're pushing out, you only receive the flat amount of 3300 (PvE) once per second with Critical Surge or above depending on a number of factors, including critically healing, with 5500 at the top end sounding plausible.

This ring doesn't have that limiter, similar to how Briarheart functions now. But pulling anywhere between 33k to 55k DPS, at the requested 10% nerf, would allow people pulling numbers equivalent to Crit Surge, which wouldn't be a major concern if it wasn't for that only being single target numbers. As said, it gets expotential better with more enemies which you don't honestly have to test. I understand and acknowledge some things do need to be tested but this is practically a given when it does something close to an existing feature.

Ultimately, I dont think it should be worse than Critical Surge but reigning it in to some extent shouldn't be an issue on that front.

Synssaturdayy9

i think they should totally put this in the game solo players lost alot of healing a couple of patches ago and i think this ring will be a great change + it shouldn't be to op with the minor major buff changes in my opinion

Dusk_Coven

15% damage -- is there a cap? On all damage including unlimited targets sitting in your AoE dots?

For sure there will be an abusive build involving the Ring.
Then ZOS will get upset and either nerf the Ring until people don't want to use it, or nerf other things paired with using the ring.

They already don't have a good handle on combat numbers and a poor idea of what's possible with their system. They shouldn't be putting out big numbers or "interesting" give-and-take effects like this. Their combat standards pass isn't even over. Get that done first at least.

Then there's all the nerfs to self-shielding / solo-play-shielding (iceheart, combat physician) in previous patches suggesting they didn't want people solo-capable too much. But now they add this ring? Makes no sense unless it's a marketing ploy to get us to buy something only to nerf it later.

YandereGirlfriend

I'm actually not seeing the issue with it scaling with multiple enemies.

In PvE, nearly all of the fights that matter (e.g. boss fights) are single-target and are thus not impacted at all by this.

And in PvP, the healing will already be nerfed by a minimum of 50% due to Battle Spirit and possibly by another 60% as well (at which point its PvP relevance goes out the window entirely).

After that, the vast majority of PvP players fight either 1v1 or in slightly outnumbered situations. In either case, you are only bursting down enemies usually one at at time, which, similarly to a boss fight, limits the scaling power.

It could indeed be nice on 1vX'ers (and they live a hard enough life...) but they are already getting heavily nerfed by all of the Buff Standardization Nerfs and likely could use the help. And again, it's only scaling well when a group of zerglings clumps together and gets hit with an ultimate burst combo in which case the 1vX'er has probably already won or else, IMO, the zerglings deserve their fate for behaving so foolishly and hopefully they will learn something from the experience.

Bottom line is that we shouldn't be balancing to help those that chase the tower rats and I am skeptical of the healing potential of attempting to individually DoT-up (and non-proc DoTs are generally very weak in PvP ) enough opponents to make the ring's scaling power actually matter.

SaucyMcSauceface

I have tested this, and I love it for solo play. My favourite thing on my Stamsorc is the ability to have a heal tied to damage output, and getting that option now on other classes is amazing.

Jodynn

I tested and can confirm that it's absolutely ridiculously OP in a PvE context if you want to sacrifice a monster set and deal less damage.

You can easily out heal any damage you take if it's not over your health bar so it doesn't matter if no one can heal you.

Blood for Blood is now viable with this ring, you get healed from the damage you deal with blood for blood, and you have infinite sustain... and healing.

HOWEVER

The damage is about 9k less than using a monster set and whip due to burning and everything else...

HOWEVER... part 2

You could sacrifice your 9k damage and have one extra DPS and only have one healer for buffing the group and healing the tank since you don't need any healing or sustain.

kojou

NOT OP... It really feels like the typical knee jerk reaction to get something nerfed to oblivion on the forums to this item.

BangX

I don't see it replacing malacath or wild hunt in PvP. Also, Heals are already too strong in this game, seriously, PvE is too easy and now they release a ring that makes it a cheese fest lol, every 810cp would be able to solo vet DLC dungeons now with this item.
I believe 15% is too high, they should reduce it to 8% and even then it would still be strong.

Waffennacht

If people are testing PvE that isnt trials, gtfo of this thread.

It Doesnt matter how good it is in 4 man dungeons; that content can be soloed already.
Edit: I have soloed Frost Vault Keep and other dlc dungeons

Trash Mobs dont matter, 4 mans dont matter, the ONLY pve question is does it make trials finish too easy or too fast? If not, its not OP

Xebov

I wrote this already to the other thread:

This item is mostly irrelevant for group content. The problem is that most ppl seem to only look at the healing DDs can receive without looking if it is relevant or even working in group environments.

For 4 Player content 3DD is already typical for vet vanilla dungeons. For DLC dungeons its already possible and the key for it is DPS. The higher the DPS of the group the more mechanics are either skipped or shortened making it easier for the Tank to survie on its own. Having more heal on the DDs has little to no impact and would even be counter productive by reducing the DPS.

For Trials its not realy useable. Tanks would get under more preasure to selfsustain which could force them into selfish sets, reducing the buffs to the group, if it would even work in the first place. The healer buff sets would still be needed so the additional DDs would deal less DPS. The original DDs would also deal less DPS due to missing monster sets. So you would put anyone under mor epreasure for little gain. Its also not working in cases where players cannot attack because they rez, do mechanics, are disabled by mechanics or the Boss is simply immune.

With that in mind i realy dont see how some ppl got the idea that this ring would somehow make healers irrelevant. The ring is ncie for solo content and might see some uses in arenas, but thats about it.

Colecovision

If the ring is a problem for trial groups, restrict the buffs players can get from other players, just like the healing restriction. You will know it's a problem when someone posts a video of 12 people abusing the ring in a way that makes the content trivial. You will not know from anything that has been posted so far.

If the problem is pvp, fix the where the ring hits battle spirit. So far that seems right and the restriction on proc sets is a great one to keep the ring from getting nerfed. Seems like relequen being left out is a good thing too.

For solo PVE (whatever difficulty content that is to the individual), it's fine at 15%. ANY nerf will probably make it useless for my Khajiit Stamblade. I used to really love to solo vet dungeons and the nerfs took the fun out of everything several patches ago. I'd love to be able to have fun with this game again. I played a little with the ring and it's fun, even though the character is still no where nearly as strong as it used to be.

I hope for surgical nerfs when someone actually proves they are needed.