Vigor <--> Rapids...DON'T

Hotdog_23

I have suggested vigor being moved to fighter’s guild line numerous times over the last year to always have it fall on deaf ears, but hey here’s still hoping. Personally all 18 of my characters is level 10 in assault/support so it’s a moot point for me.

Vigor is important for the original 4 stamina-based classes at lower levels which is why I wanted it moved to the fighter’s guild skill line with early access to it. Fighter’s guild = stamina and mages guild = magic. Just always made sense to be to have some sort of heal in fighter guild since we already have a magic based healing weapon in the restoration staff line.

Rapids is also very nice to have once you can bar swap at level 15. Sure, you can get it at level 10 but space is tight with just one bar so I never used it until at least level 15.

Another radical idea I have is let the restoration staff skill line be magic or stamina based depending on your highest offensive skill. Then vigor would not matter as much.

Be safe and have fun

eKsDee

I knew there wouldn't be any changing Zenimax's opinion on this considering we couldn't change Zenimax's opinion on the vMA/vDSA weapons not being automatically upgraded. Frankly, I'm surprised more people didn't.

mairwen85

eKsDee wrote: »

I knew there wouldn't be any changing Zenimax's opinion on this considering we couldn't change Zenimax's opinion on the vMA/vDSA weapons not being automatically upgraded. Frankly, I'm surprised more people didn't.

Many people also knew it was only the beginning and re-grind/additional grind for things already earned was going to become common practice.

OldManJim

What really sucks is that ZoS won’t even communicate with us about it. They like to pretend that they’re listening to the players, but in reality they’re not.

lemonizzle

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Are people really so addicted to speed, that they consider this skill "essential"? Or that they'd ever in a million years consider buying those stupid crown store training books?


(and the idea that someone would skip buying a new character slot because they can't get easy Rapids - as opposed to all the other better reasons - seems crazy to me.)



full disclosure - I've played since 2016, have 8 alts, have never used Rapids or bought a training book. Regular mount speed + wayshrines has always seemed perfectly fine to me. /shrug

I played many thousand hours, let's suppose each ride was done on 0 speed no rapids horse, instead of 60 +autoslot rapid with addon. I haven't made calculations but the time to reach x destination from a starting point, even in a straight line is immensely faster to do on the latter option, from experience. That could mean that each 30 second ride I make in Cyrodiil for example, to negate the wayshrine argument, will equal to at least 90-120 second or more time taken with no rapids stock mount.
Take this on a larger scale, in 1000 hours played you are on horseback for 10 h, on a 60 speed rapids mount. You will ride for 30 hours with no upgrade or rapid - and even with 60 upgrade, rapid will spare you many many hours in the long run.

So yes speed may not be everything but it is a priority in a large MMO like this. Speedrun dungeons, lazy crafter, dps numbers, instant crafting scrolls, xp bonus, efficient farming and grinding, material gathering speedy gonzalez gear, assist rapid riding, teleporting accross the map, keep and imperial base recall stones. All these stuff may indicate that in fact, most players prefer to get their thing done faster.

So while making vigor easier to get is nice, but not at the expense of having you farm loads of AP on a slow mount in Cyrodiil of all places. The same new players, who can't take the time to learn about motifs and vampire bites and buy them in crown store - what will their first thought be upon learning what grind you need for speed?

CMDR_Un1k0rn

mairwen85 wrote: »

Imagine having met the requirements for something, to put in the work and earn it, and then be told that you have to do more of the same to get what you already had. Seems a recurrent theme since greymoor release.

I'm loving the 2020 model of the game...

That "work" you describe is walking into Cyrodiil and pressing E on a quest giver NPC. Literally 10 seconds after entering Cyrodiil if you skip dialogue and sprint.

Meanwhile, those of us wanting to play Stamina PvP, which is significantly more than people playing Magicka PvP, (this is across the whole spectrum of players from top tier all the way down to lvl 10 first toons), those Stamina players have to fight other players with no effective heal available until they've earned their first 98k AP.

I know ZOS described Vigor as a sought after skill, with that being the basis of the change.

Has it occurred to anyone that they were not talking about PvE players here?

I know, it's radical considering we are talking about the PvP skill line. /s

Vigor is the one skill that every Stamina PvP'er definitely has no matter what. Because without it, you die. That's why it is sought after. Because Stamina PvP is just not viable without it.

PvP without Rapids equipped? Yes, perfectly viable. As is not having it whilst riding around PvE zones picking flowers.

Any PvE achievements where Rapids is genuinely needed, only requires one group member to have it equipped, as it is a group buff.

BigBragg

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

show previous quotes

mairwen85 wrote: »

Imagine having met the requirements for something, to put in the work and earn it, and then be told that you have to do more of the same to get what you already had. Seems a recurrent theme since greymoor release.

I'm loving the 2020 model of the game...

That "work" you describe is walking into Cyrodiil and pressing E on a quest giver NPC. Literally 10 seconds after entering Cyrodiil if you skip dialogue and sprint.

Meanwhile, those of us wanting to play Stamina PvP, which is significantly more than people playing Magicka PvP, (this is across the whole spectrum of players from top tier all the way down to lvl 10 first toons), those Stamina players have to fight other players with no effective heal available until they've earned their first 98k AP.

I know ZOS described Vigor as a sought after skill, with that being the basis of the change.

Has it occurred to anyone that they were not talking about PvE players here?

I know, it's radical considering we are talking about the PvP skill line. /s

Vigor is the one skill that every Stamina PvP'er definitely has no matter what. Because without it, you die. That's why it is sought after. Because Stamina PvP is just not viable without it.

PvP without Rapids equipped? Yes, perfectly viable. As is not having it whilst riding around PvE zones picking flowers.

Any PvE achievements where Rapids is genuinely needed, only requires one group member to have it equipped, as it is a group buff.

Even from a stam PvP playing perspective, I'd prefer to have rapids first.

Hurbster

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

show previous quotes

mairwen85 wrote: »

Imagine having met the requirements for something, to put in the work and earn it, and then be told that you have to do more of the same to get what you already had. Seems a recurrent theme since greymoor release.

I'm loving the 2020 model of the game...

That "work" you describe is walking into Cyrodiil and pressing E on a quest giver NPC. Literally 10 seconds after entering Cyrodiil if you skip dialogue and sprint.

Meanwhile, those of us wanting to play Stamina PvP, which is significantly more than people playing Magicka PvP, (this is across the whole spectrum of players from top tier all the way down to lvl 10 first toons), those Stamina players have to fight other players with no effective heal available until they've earned their first 98k AP.

I know ZOS described Vigor as a sought after skill, with that being the basis of the change.

Has it occurred to anyone that they were not talking about PvE players here?

I know, it's radical considering we are talking about the PvP skill line. /s

Vigor is the one skill that every Stamina PvP'er definitely has no matter what. Because without it, you die. That's why it is sought after. Because Stamina PvP is just not viable without it.

PvP without Rapids equipped? Yes, perfectly viable. As is not having it whilst riding around PvE zones picking flowers.

Any PvE achievements where Rapids is genuinely needed, only requires one group member to have it equipped, as it is a group buff.

The important thing to take from this is 'want' to play stamina PvP. You are going to get many people in PvP who do not want to be there.

At all.

mairwen85

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

show previous quotes

mairwen85 wrote: »

Imagine having met the requirements for something, to put in the work and earn it, and then be told that you have to do more of the same to get what you already had. Seems a recurrent theme since greymoor release.

I'm loving the 2020 model of the game...

That "work" you describe is walking into Cyrodiil and pressing E on a quest giver NPC. Literally 10 seconds after entering Cyrodiil if you skip dialogue and sprint.

Meanwhile, those of us wanting to play Stamina PvP, which is significantly more than people playing Magicka PvP, (this is across the whole spectrum of players from top tier all the way down to lvl 10 first toons), those Stamina players have to fight other players with no effective heal available until they've earned their first 98k AP.

I know ZOS described Vigor as a sought after skill, with that being the basis of the change.

Has it occurred to anyone that they were not talking about PvE players here?

I know, it's radical considering we are talking about the PvP skill line. /s

Vigor is the one skill that every Stamina PvP'er definitely has no matter what. Because without it, you die. That's why it is sought after. Because Stamina PvP is just not viable without it.

PvP without Rapids equipped? Yes, perfectly viable. As is not having it whilst riding around PvE zones picking flowers.

Any PvE achievements where Rapids is genuinely needed, only requires one group member to have it equipped, as it is a group buff.

I'm speaking of a trend in general. I don't really gaf about rapids vs vigor or when or how they're unlocked, but I do worry about the mindset and approach ZOS is adopting since greymoor.

Meanwhile, those of us wanting to play Stamina PvP, which is significantly more than people playing Magicka PvP, (this is across the whole spectrum of players from top tier all the way down to lvl 10 first toons), those Stamina players have to fight other players with no effective heal available until they've earned their first 98k AP.

Then surely you would think it better vigor and rapids not be swapped, but rather vigor find a better home at skill 1 of Support or perhaps not even be unlocked via PvP. There are other means to approach things is the point, and many times alternatives suggest by the players are everybody wins solutions that don't leave anyone feeling as if their requirements or concerns are set aside. ZOS consistently deliver their decisions via monkey's paw logic and damn the consequences--and at the same time are shifting paradigm into what I allude to in my previous post. Regardless of arena weapons one day, long established skills the next, there is a new pattern emerging...

eKsDee

mairwen85 wrote: »

show previous quotes

eKsDee wrote: »

I knew there wouldn't be any changing Zenimax's opinion on this considering we couldn't change Zenimax's opinion on the vMA/vDSA weapons not being automatically upgraded. Frankly, I'm surprised more people didn't.

Many people also knew it was only the beginning and re-grind/additional grind for things already earned was going to become common practice.

For every person who knew, there are at least a dozen others who didn't or couldn't see it, and they're the ones who're up for a rude awakening. I wasn't referring to the one who knew, I was referring to the dozen or more that didn't.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

mairwen85 wrote: »

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CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Imagine having met the requirements for something, to put in the work and earn it, and then be told that you have to do more of the same to get what you already had. Seems a recurrent theme since greymoor release.

I'm loving the 2020 model of the game...

That "work" you describe is walking into Cyrodiil and pressing E on a quest giver NPC. Literally 10 seconds after entering Cyrodiil if you skip dialogue and sprint.

Meanwhile, those of us wanting to play Stamina PvP, which is significantly more than people playing Magicka PvP, (this is across the whole spectrum of players from top tier all the way down to lvl 10 first toons), those Stamina players have to fight other players with no effective heal available until they've earned their first 98k AP.

I know ZOS described Vigor as a sought after skill, with that being the basis of the change.

Has it occurred to anyone that they were not talking about PvE players here?

I know, it's radical considering we are talking about the PvP skill line. /s

Vigor is the one skill that every Stamina PvP'er definitely has no matter what. Because without it, you die. That's why it is sought after. Because Stamina PvP is just not viable without it.

PvP without Rapids equipped? Yes, perfectly viable. As is not having it whilst riding around PvE zones picking flowers.

Any PvE achievements where Rapids is genuinely needed, only requires one group member to have it equipped, as it is a group buff.

I'm speaking of a trend in general. I don't really gaf about rapids vs vigor or when or how they're unlocked, but I do worry about the mindset and approach ZOS is adopting since greymoor.

show previous quotes

Meanwhile, those of us wanting to play Stamina PvP, which is significantly more than people playing Magicka PvP, (this is across the whole spectrum of players from top tier all the way down to lvl 10 first toons), those Stamina players have to fight other players with no effective heal available until they've earned their first 98k AP.

Then surely you would think it better vigor and rapids not be swapped, but rather vigor find a better home at skill 1 of Support or perhaps not even be unlocked via PvP. There are other means to approach things is the point, and many times alternatives suggest by the players are everybody wins solutions that don't leave anyone feeling as if their requirements or concerns are set aside. ZOS consistently deliver their decisions via monkey's paw logic and damn the consequences--and at the same time are shifting paradigm into what I allude to in my previous post. Regardless of arena weapons one day, long established skills the next, there is a new pattern emerging...

Honestly? I do see your point, or at least the logic of where you're coming from.

At the same time, however, I don't think two changes, with the first being the rewards for Dragonstar/Maelstrom, (That existing gear was not upgraded was low, I agree. It does not change the fact that it brings reward standards and criteria up to scratch with other newer weapon sets, which I do see as a good thing.), I just don't think that is enough to declare a pattern from.

EvilAutoTech

If I was going to create a stamina PVP character right now, I'd go with Warden or Necro. Either way, I'm going to be just fine for my first 98k AP. As long as I have rapids.

Sure I could choose a different class and I would die a lot more getting to that first 98k but that's the choice. I would still prefer rapids over vigor for that first 98.

If I decide I want vigor for a PVE toon, I'm going to do whatever it takes to get it. Even if it involves many, many PVP deaths.

I still think the best place for vigor is the first spot in the undaunted skill line. One trip to the outside of a first tier dungeon and back to an inn. Simple and you don't even have to wait until level 10.

finehair

Imagine actually thinking you have earned rapids by putting work into it.
It is given to you for free when you go to Cyrodiil and talk to alliance warlord as a reward you know that right?
So you haven't earned anything, but now you have to and that makes people angry for some reason. Literally the most reliable stam heal in the game needs to be earned by putting work into it (98k is not much of a work while you can just participate in some zerg def of a keep) and people have audacity to defend their free skill over it.
So see you in Cyrodiil soon I suppose.

agegarton

Kosef wrote: »

Please DO NOT swap this. Do the logical thing and move Vigor to the FG skill line or make it the first in support. Rapids is essential. Especially for newer players and for people who run a lot of alts. I have 12 and was planning on buying more character slots to go full 18/18. Not anymore. I'm not grinding to R5 on all my alts that don't have it currently and the new ones I planned on making. I do a lot of writs and like to switch between different play styles.

This game has made so many strides in being alt friendly, but this is a huge step back. A lot of people utilize Rapids for alts/farming. Newer Pvp'rs can experience cyrodiil and not at a snails pace while they wait for their mount to get somewhat usable. If your main goal (which I think it isn't ) is to have stamina based classes have access to a heal early on then move it to the first skill line in Support, or move it to the FG skill which can be leveled much faster than Assault.

I think the real reason this is being done is so you can have people purchase these riding training from the crown store more often. That may occur..but you will lose out on the people buying character slots.

I assume you've never played in Cyro then? It can be the difference between playing PVP or playing Riding Simulator. Wayshrines are in short supply!

agegarton

There are so many different - better - ways of handling this.

Rapids could be moved to Fighters Guild or World.

We could do away with the pointless and annoying mount upgrades.

We could make mount upgrades (if we have to have them) account-wide.

Vigor could be moved to Fighters or the Support skill line.


I think the current "solution" (for a problem that doesn't exist) is possibly the worst option available. Well done ZoS.

Sarannah

Switching Vigor with Rapids seems like a good move to me. New players need a way to heal themselves, while rapids is just a QoL skill. It would also disallow low level farming bots from using rapids.

Personally I never use(d) rapids, and in my opinion they should even remove it fully. Level playing field and all.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

finehair wrote: »

Imagine actually thinking you have earned rapids by putting work into it.
It is given to you for free when you go to Cyrodiil and talk to alliance warlord as a reward you know that right?
So you haven't earned anything, but now you have to and that makes people angry for some reason. Literally the most reliable stam heal in the game needs to be earned by putting work into it (98k is not much of a work while you can just participate in some zerg def of a keep) and people have audacity to defend their free skill over it.
So see you in Cyrodiil soon I suppose.

The funny thing is that the zerg they could join to get Rapids will have at least a couple of people running Rapids already because you know, people are always running PvP content, and this means that as Rapids is a group buff, they'll get their speed boost in Cyrodiil anyway! Couple hours later and you'll have Rapids yourself for it.

Hurbster

Remember, all these arguments (by the same people, btw) are caused by a problem that is totally of ZoS's making. So many ways that they could have done this, and they chose the way that will inconvenience the most people and will cause the most aggro.

AlnilamE

eKsDee wrote: »

I knew there wouldn't be any changing Zenimax's opinion on this considering we couldn't change Zenimax's opinion on the vMA/vDSA weapons not being automatically upgraded. Frankly, I'm surprised more people didn't.

There's a difference between keeping something as is and putting out a better version and taking something away that you already had.

If they decided to create a "Super-Rapids" skill that unlocks at Assault 10, but left the regular rapids as is, I would have saved myself a lot of typing.

Sarannah wrote: »

Switching Vigor with Rapids seems like a good move to me. New players need a way to heal themselves, while rapids is just a QoL skill. It would also disallow low level farming bots from using rapids.

Personally I never use(d) rapids, and in my opinion they should even remove it fully. Level playing field and all.

But why not swap Vigor with Siege Shield instead? Like, low level characters usually haven't even unlocked the stamina morph of their abilities, so if they are using a heal, it would be a magicka heal anyway.

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

show previous quotes

finehair wrote: »

Imagine actually thinking you have earned rapids by putting work into it.
It is given to you for free when you go to Cyrodiil and talk to alliance warlord as a reward you know that right?
So you haven't earned anything, but now you have to and that makes people angry for some reason. Literally the most reliable stam heal in the game needs to be earned by putting work into it (98k is not much of a work while you can just participate in some zerg def of a keep) and people have audacity to defend their free skill over it.
So see you in Cyrodiil soon I suppose.

The funny thing is that the zerg they could join to get Rapids will have at least a couple of people running Rapids already because you know, people are always running PvP content, and this means that as Rapids is a group buff, they'll get their speed boost in Cyrodiil anyway! Couple hours later and you'll have Rapids yourself for it.

The same thing can be said of heals, though. If you join a zerg, there will be healers there and they can heal you.

While being in a group would help, it depends on someone staying back and applying rapids on the stragglers, because it doesn't have a lot of range.

Whereas for heals, you are usually fairly close together when you are at a keep or resource, and it's easier to heal group members.

mairwen85

Hurbster wrote: »

Remember, all these arguments (by the same people, btw) are caused by a problem that is totally of ZoS's making. So many ways that they could have done this, and they chose the way that will inconvenience the most people and will cause the most aggro.

And that's my issue with these kinds of decisions; regardless of the actual subject under discussion, alternative options which achieve the same results as a path of least resistance are repeatedly ignored in favour of as you say "causing the most aggro". It's a weird stance to take, especially when feedback every time offers so many alternatives that the majority are happy to go along with.

Gundug

The difference between Rapid Maneuvers and Vigor is that the former is a utility skill useful to any character, while the latter is a survival skill useful to some characters. I run Rapid Maneuvers on 60+ characters. I run Vigor on 2 characters, and only because they are running group DPS builds in solo content. The majority of my solo stamina builds never use, nor need Vigor.

Just because some people enjoy moving slowly through zones doesn’t mean everyone else should have to. The difference in time to get from place to place with or without Rapid Maneuvers is significant. This is a very poor change by ZOS designed to push crown store offerings on alt-loving players.

Rowjoh

not using rapids to get around much more efficiently as you level up through the game is just silly.

In pvp, riding your mount at the speed paint dries = death. Not to mention missing out on keep and resource flips cos you cant get there in time.

from now on whenever I see someone crawling along in Cyrodiil I'll make damn sure I gank them in the hope they are one of the advocates for not using rapids !

Kosef

Gundug wrote: »

The difference between Rapid Maneuvers and Vigor is that the former is a utility skill useful to any character, while the latter is a survival skill useful to some characters. I run Rapid Maneuvers on 60+ characters. I run Vigor on 2 characters, and only because they are running group DPS builds in solo content. The majority of my solo stamina builds never use, nor need Vigor.

Just because some people enjoy moving slowly through zones doesn’t mean everyone else should have to. The difference in time to get from place to place with or without Rapid Maneuvers is significant. This is a very poor change by ZOS designed to push crown store offerings on alt-loving players.

That is my point exactly!

There are many alternatives to satisfy both sides of this argument...but ultimately the thing that ZoS cares about most is their crown store. It's literally what they invest MOST of their time into. So this change is obviously to push people into buying riding speed upgrades for new alternate characters. But a lot of people will no longer be buying alternate characters..myself included.

To the folks arguing that Vigor is more important than rapids, or that it is needed by stamina pvpr's and Rapids is not needed by pve players. I play both sides of the coin and I'd rather have rapids first.Not only that..the simple solution yet again as has been suggest so many times....is to move Vigor or Rapids to the 1st ability learned in the Support line or to a skill line like Fighters Guild (which can be leveled quickly). No one in this thread is saying that vigor should not be available sooner..but why does it have to be available sooner at the expense of rapids affecting soooooo many players. Especially when it's easily avoidable.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

AlnilamE wrote: »

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eKsDee wrote: »

I knew there wouldn't be any changing Zenimax's opinion on this considering we couldn't change Zenimax's opinion on the vMA/vDSA weapons not being automatically upgraded. Frankly, I'm surprised more people didn't.

There's a difference between keeping something as is and putting out a better version and taking something away that you already had.

If they decided to create a "Super-Rapids" skill that unlocks at Assault 10, but left the regular rapids as is, I would have saved myself a lot of typing.

show previous quotes

Sarannah wrote: »

Switching Vigor with Rapids seems like a good move to me. New players need a way to heal themselves, while rapids is just a QoL skill. It would also disallow low level farming bots from using rapids.

Personally I never use(d) rapids, and in my opinion they should even remove it fully. Level playing field and all.

But why not swap Vigor with Siege Shield instead? Like, low level characters usually haven't even unlocked the stamina morph of their abilities, so if they are using a heal, it would be a magicka heal anyway.

show previous quotes

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

finehair wrote: »

Imagine actually thinking you have earned rapids by putting work into it.
It is given to you for free when you go to Cyrodiil and talk to alliance warlord as a reward you know that right?
So you haven't earned anything, but now you have to and that makes people angry for some reason. Literally the most reliable stam heal in the game needs to be earned by putting work into it (98k is not much of a work while you can just participate in some zerg def of a keep) and people have audacity to defend their free skill over it.
So see you in Cyrodiil soon I suppose.

The funny thing is that the zerg they could join to get Rapids will have at least a couple of people running Rapids already because you know, people are always running PvP content, and this means that as Rapids is a group buff, they'll get their speed boost in Cyrodiil anyway! Couple hours later and you'll have Rapids yourself for it.

The same thing can be said of heals, though. If you join a zerg, there will be healers there and they can heal you.

While being in a group would help, it depends on someone staying back and applying rapids on the stragglers, because it doesn't have a lot of range.

Whereas for heals, you are usually fairly close together when you are at a keep or resource, and it's easier to heal group members.

I'd disagree.

As nice as Rapids is, once you reach your destination it is 100% useless. There's better ways to get expedition buffs in combat.

Thing about PvP is that if you can't heal yourself, you are asking for trouble. Sure there might be healers? But remember, PuG zergs, which I really figured was implied because that's how Cyrodiil PvP often goes, especially for newcomers.

"Type +zerg for group."

Issue with PuG zergs is that you're not guaranteed a healer, and if you do get a healer, there is every chance that they just aren't very good. At this level of PvP, which is very low, a selfish heal like vigor is often all one has. As for Rapids? You can count on the lead having it and you should be following the crown anyway.

Having a bit of self-reliance in healing goes a very long way.

BigBragg

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

show previous quotes

AlnilamE wrote: »

eKsDee wrote: »

I knew there wouldn't be any changing Zenimax's opinion on this considering we couldn't change Zenimax's opinion on the vMA/vDSA weapons not being automatically upgraded. Frankly, I'm surprised more people didn't.

There's a difference between keeping something as is and putting out a better version and taking something away that you already had.

If they decided to create a "Super-Rapids" skill that unlocks at Assault 10, but left the regular rapids as is, I would have saved myself a lot of typing.

Sarannah wrote: »

Switching Vigor with Rapids seems like a good move to me. New players need a way to heal themselves, while rapids is just a QoL skill. It would also disallow low level farming bots from using rapids.

Personally I never use(d) rapids, and in my opinion they should even remove it fully. Level playing field and all.

But why not swap Vigor with Siege Shield instead? Like, low level characters usually haven't even unlocked the stamina morph of their abilities, so if they are using a heal, it would be a magicka heal anyway.

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

finehair wrote: »

Imagine actually thinking you have earned rapids by putting work into it.
It is given to you for free when you go to Cyrodiil and talk to alliance warlord as a reward you know that right?
So you haven't earned anything, but now you have to and that makes people angry for some reason. Literally the most reliable stam heal in the game needs to be earned by putting work into it (98k is not much of a work while you can just participate in some zerg def of a keep) and people have audacity to defend their free skill over it.
So see you in Cyrodiil soon I suppose.

The funny thing is that the zerg they could join to get Rapids will have at least a couple of people running Rapids already because you know, people are always running PvP content, and this means that as Rapids is a group buff, they'll get their speed boost in Cyrodiil anyway! Couple hours later and you'll have Rapids yourself for it.

The same thing can be said of heals, though. If you join a zerg, there will be healers there and they can heal you.

While being in a group would help, it depends on someone staying back and applying rapids on the stragglers, because it doesn't have a lot of range.

Whereas for heals, you are usually fairly close together when you are at a keep or resource, and it's easier to heal group members.

I'd disagree.

As nice as Rapids is, once you reach your destination it is 100% useless. There's better ways to get expedition buffs in combat.

Thing about PvP is that if you can't heal yourself, you are asking for trouble. Sure there might be healers? But remember, PuG zergs, which I really figured was implied because that's how Cyrodiil PvP often goes, especially for newcomers.

"Type +zerg for group."

Issue with PuG zergs is that you're not guaranteed a healer, and if you do get a healer, there is every chance that they just aren't very good. At this level of PvP, which is very low, a selfish heal like vigor is often all one has. As for Rapids? You can count on the lead having it and you should be following the crown anyway.

Having a bit of self-reliance in healing goes a very long way.

Tri-pots that ZOS hands out like candy, Immovability Pots if you really want to play, and any of the ways to get up health regen. Vigor is great, but if you are in a fight where you need to spam it, you've probably already lost. Cyrodiil, just like the rest of Tamriel is big, but in Cyrodiil if you don't make it in time having a self heal won't matter.

Linaleah

nukk3r wrote: »

No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.

because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.

THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.

Sarannah

You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!

New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.

Linaleah

Sarannah wrote: »

You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!

New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.

are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?

and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.

this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.

Sarannah

Linaleah wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sarannah wrote: »

You guys do realize the reasons you are stating for wanting rapids early on, is exactly the reason they are taking away rapids early on... bots!

New players shouldn't have to compete against bots and experienced players for resources. By making rapids being worked for, it evens out the gamespeed for most players on the starting islands, atleast till level 10.

are you seriously... defending them punishing actual REAL players, REAL people.... to slow down bots instead of just you know... continuing to BAN bots? really?

and guess what? speaking of even playing fields and all. normal player who does things through gameplay rather then cash shop? is not getting rapids until lvl 10. a bot account can buy that skill line and have rapids ON starting islands. a normal player who is willing to open a check books can have rapids ON starting islands. and that brings us to the crux of the issue.

this. change. has little. to NOTHING. to do with leveling playing field. on the contrary.

This is why I said atleast till level 10. And punishing real players.... isn't it more punishing for someone who just installed the game, to have the resources they are walking to be taken by others who have a speed advantage?
You are also only comparing new players with bots, as when compared with experienced players on alts it would even out the speed. So yes, it balanced out the speed for almost everyone in the early zones(besides high level players going back there).

Bot accounts might be able to buy that skillline, but they would be at risk of having their accounts deleted at any time. So why would a bot waste money on an account? And even if all bots would buy rapids, it would still even out the speed for experienced players their alts versus actual new players. Making it a much better experience for everyone still.

nukk3r

Linaleah wrote: »

show previous quotes

nukk3r wrote: »

No one had answered my questions in every thread about this change. Why do you need rapids on every toon that you have? Especially the ones with multiple maxed accounts.

because imagine having all those characters and how much time you add to travel cumulatively WITHOUT rapids. you think, oh its just a few seconds longer to get from here to there. on one character. once. but you add every day, on multiple characters and that's multiple extra hours spend on travel that you didn't have to spend, that you could have used to do something else.

THAT is why we need rapids. to have more time to do things at point be, because it took less time to get to it from point A thanks to rapids.

What are those points A and B? Do you have more that one harvester toon? Do you have like 10 mag DDs to use Psijic/Mages? I mean if you have time to collect skyshards, you have time to surf a zerg.