What's the deal with Jewelry crafting?

radiostar

Every so often when you do your dailies you get platings:

Try not to skip doing them

Kingslayer513

Mobius0 wrote: »

Again, arbitrary reasons. They have it unreasonably difficult "because they want to," is literally all I am hearing.

Golden vendor shmolden vendor. Just adjust golden vendor prices to be in line with the new values. Or allow you to choose the trait.

Gold jewelry is supposed to be rare and difficult to obtain. It's supposed to be a reward for completing endgame content and something you have to work towards. Jewelery crafting was added much much later and ZOS intentionally wanted to keep it difficult so that there's still an incentive to do endgame content.

And you can call this arbitrary reasons all you want, but I agree with ZOS and think it's good game design.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

I strongly disagree with gold jewelry should be hard to get statements here most sets don’t drop in gold. Yes the golden vendor helps but the chances to get your set is slim. Jewelry crafting is trash if you have a niche build.

I have 18 max level crafters don’t tell me it’s worth it that’s two hours a day just on crafting daily let alone any of the dozens of grinds you have to do here. You will get 54 transmutation stones a day doing undaunted that would 3-4 hours that’s 6 hours a day on the game and nothing done.

Kittytravel

Mobius0 wrote: »

Again, arbitrary reasons. They have it unreasonably difficult "because they want to," is literally all I am hearing.

Golden vendor shmolden vendor. Just adjust golden vendor prices to be in line with the new values. Or allow you to choose the trait.

I'd just like to point out that with your logic every decision they make is "arbitrary". Literally every change they make to the game is "Because they want to" no matter what they state their reasoning as, so I don't particularly understand your stance?

tmbrinks

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

I strongly disagree with gold jewelry should be hard to get statements here most sets don’t drop in gold. Yes the golden vendor helps but the chances to get your set is slim. Jewelry crafting is trash if you have a niche build.

I have 18 max level crafters don’t tell me it’s worth it that’s two hours a day just on crafting daily let alone any of the dozens of grinds you have to do here. You will get 54 transmutation stones a day doing undaunted that would 3-4 hours that’s 6 hours a day on the game and nothing done.

That's why you pick one or two to do... it is an MMO.

Then take care of the others through that one that you do grind.

Fur_like_snow

This one is always dressed up big gold chains looking fancy.

ZaroktheImmortal

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

Mobius0 wrote: »

Again, arbitrary reasons. They have it unreasonably difficult "because they want to," is literally all I am hearing.

Golden vendor shmolden vendor. Just adjust golden vendor prices to be in line with the new values. Or allow you to choose the trait.

Gold jewelry is supposed to be rare and difficult to obtain. It's supposed to be a reward for completing endgame content and something you have to work towards. Jewelery crafting was added much much later and ZOS intentionally wanted to keep it difficult so that there's still an incentive to do endgame content.

And you can call this arbitrary reasons all you want, but I agree with ZOS and think it's good game design.

The real question here is the jewelry pieces actually superior to the other pieces? Do they do anything really special to make you more powerful? And with the meta always changing and gear getting nerfs honestly it makes it less valuable to bother with when they make it such a pain because you're likely going to have to go through all this again.

ZaroktheImmortal

If we're going by the argument that it's for endgame and they meant it that way then it should have super powerful perk to getting it gold. Otherwise it's just an annoyance on one type of gear when in reality making it gold won't make such a huge difference.

Mobius0

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Mobius0 wrote: »

midgetfromtheshire wrote: »

Out of any of the crafting skill lines for gear, jewellery crafting is the most valuable. If you run any complete build for PvE and PvP, the necklace and two rings will always be present. Body pieces have choices from three and weapons have choices from two.

The few sources in the game for gold jewellery prior to jewellery crafting still need to remain viable. Some pvpers use the gold vendor as their major source of income every weekend.

Jewelry adds no raw armor or damage like armor/weapons do. Maybe if it added spell resistance or damage or something, I could say it is more valuable.

And just because the broken system has caused an avenue for certain people to make money off of it, doesn't somehow make it fine. Neither does the guy with gold teeth who swims in gold coins and can afford 10 manor houses who can afford to have everything "golded."

Even if I were to concede to you that jewelry crafting was of equal value to the other skills (which I won't), then I would still be able to logically argue that it should at least be equal in difficulty to them.

Of course, I get that people who went through the grind, don't necessarily like the idea of others getting it more easily. Nor do those wealthy enough that it's a non-factor for them, and thus would prefer to not lose their economical edge over others.

Incidentally, both of those reasons are bad reasons to not fix it

The jewelry enchants absolutely add raw damage. Try a build with weapon/spell damage enchants on them and try one without. You will see a huge difference especially if you’ve got them in the infused trait (sorry bloodthirsty but you got the nerf hammer) This is why jewelry is harder to level because it is a huge modifier to your overall power.

Yeah, and try a build without armor pieces or a weapon.

Clearly you get stats from jewelry. But you will notice from a simple hover over, that armor gives armor (BASE!), weapon gives damage, and jewelry gives nada.

Sure, you can give it traits and enchants. But the same goes for weapons/armor.

Am I saying jewelry doesn't do anything for you? Clearly not, that would be stupid. But armor and weapons do more, and their crafting skills can create more.

But anyways, to not get too far off topic, let me ask you this: Do you feel that jewelry being magnitude more difficult to level and to upgrade items is reasonable? You don't at the very least agree that having platings be so hard to get is at least no bueno?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

tmbrinks wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

I strongly disagree with gold jewelry should be hard to get statements here most sets don’t drop in gold. Yes the golden vendor helps but the chances to get your set is slim. Jewelry crafting is trash if you have a niche build.

I have 18 max level crafters don’t tell me it’s worth it that’s two hours a day just on crafting daily let alone any of the dozens of grinds you have to do here. You will get 54 transmutation stones a day doing undaunted that would 3-4 hours that’s 6 hours a day on the game and nothing done.

That's why you pick one or two to do... it is an MMO.

Then take care of the others through that one that you do grind.

You mostly get grains from dailies not plates and you need ten grains to make one plate. So when you would you farm normally plus dailies from 18 characters in a week you still don’t have enough to gold out one jewelry set fully to get all your guys gold will take months and that’s just one set per.

If Im grinding 18 characters a day I should be seeing better results then this grinds are the main reason I make months off the game it’s just not worth it most times

Katahdin

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

I strongly disagree with gold jewelry should be hard to get statements here most sets don’t drop in gold. Yes the golden vendor helps but the chances to get your set is slim. Jewelry crafting is trash if you have a niche build.

I have 18 max level crafters don’t tell me it’s worth it that’s two hours a day just on crafting daily let alone any of the dozens of grinds you have to do here. You will get 54 transmutation stones a day doing undaunted that would 3-4 hours that’s 6 hours a day on the game and nothing done.

That's why you pick one or two to do... it is an MMO.

Then take care of the others through that one that you do grind.

You mostly get grains from dailies not plates and you need ten grains to make one plate. So when you would you farm normally plus dailies from 18 characters in a week you still don’t have enough to gold out one jewelry set fully to get all your guys gold will take months and that’s just one set per.

If Im grinding 18 characters a day I should be seeing better results then this grinds are the main reason I make months off the game it’s just not worth it most times

You must have very bad RNG indeed.
I do writs on 2 characters most of the time unless its the anniversary event, then I do them on 18.
I decon the yellow jewelry I get from trials or PVP that I cant use and I farm a little bit of jewlery mats as I run around doing other stuff.

I have probably upgraded at least 12 pieces since jewelry crafing became a thing and I have around 15 platings on my account right now. Ive sold one here and there and Ive never bought any or any grains that I recall.

Yea the platings are annoying but as stated by others, this is intended because ZoS did not want jewelry crafting to supplant running trials or the golden vendor.

Ryath_Waylander

Well, this discussion has pretty much been thrashed out but my point of view, for what it's worth is:
a) It may be slower to get to level 50 but it's quicker to get to master crafter than the weapons and armour in all traits.
b) I don't like the grain system but really, if jewelry crafting was easuer, mats would be cheaper and then, be honest, who'd bother running vet level content to farm set piece jewelry?
c) Everything hinges on tge fact that zos wants you to run group content on their mmo. Vet trials and dungeons, for gold and purple set and decon jewelry, and dolmens for blue and green decon jewelry.
d) It is what it is. They've relented slightly by allowing blue, green and purple mats to drop in daily crafting writs. They also halved the platings required to upgrade jewelry. They're not going to give us a further compromise, we're lucky we got anything.
e) Run the dolmens in Al'kir to level jewelry.

PrimusNephilim

Ryath_Waylander wrote: »

d) It is what it is. They've relented slightly by allowing blue, green and purple mats to drop in daily crafting writs. They also halved the platings required to upgrade jewelry. They're not going to give us a further compromise, we're lucky we got anything.

^^ This is it right here, ZOS will not make anymore changes....its a gold sink and a major PIA grind if you really want the gold jewelry and that's how ZOS wants it to be.

I run around with purple jewelry and I do just fine, sometimes I win, sometimes I die...no big deal, its just a game

~ Cheers!

Gythral

Time & gold sink

That is all it is...

blabliblargh

Mix wrote: »

I've leveled JC on 8 characters(for writs!) and by far the easiest way is to make CP150 white jewelry on main character and then bank and mass decon (this feature is so amazing for leveling) and repeat. Platinum Ounces are usually pretty cheap and your newly max JC characters will start making gold with the writs awarding a grain of upgrade mat daily

And if you don't know a player that can craft those rings to decon, if you have some money (150K-200K gold) simply buy from guild traders a bunch of (cheapest) CP 150 or 160 intricate jewelry to decon. The best source for these are guild traders in Belkarth (Craglorn) and their stock is replenished quite fast. I leveled my 160+ CP crafter from 0 to 50 in 3 days (and a tad of gold) with this method. It's probably possible to do it faster if you find more guild traders that have them.
And at the end of the process you will have plenty of Platinum (from the decon) for doing your own crafting or the crafting writs.
If doing this, make sure to have sufficiently skill points to attribute to relevant jewelry crafting skills when they unlock.

Donny_Vito

Gythral wrote: »

Time & gold sink

That is all it is...

Yep, pretty much. When Summerset dropped, they wanted people to really work for it. Logical sense would have suggested they follow the mold that every other crafting skill line uses, but that would have been too easy and for whatever reason ZoS has placed a high arbitrary value on gold jewelry. So therefore, we must abide and justify it however we can.

CleymenZero

Mobius0 wrote: »

I'm sure this has been complained about since the beginning of time, but what's the deal with jewelry craft being overall 10 times more difficult than other skills, even though it is IMO one of the least valuable crafting skills? Why has this gone on for so long the way it currently is?

Let's just start with leveling jewelry. I literally maxed every single other crafting skill in the time it took me to get to like level 21 in jewelry. I was initially shocked by this, because I assumed it would be FASTER than most of the other skills, since it is less valuable of a craft skill (Woodworking applies to crafting 6 things, clothing 14 things, blacksmithing 13 things, but jewelry just 3, or technically only 2.).

And to make matters worse, what's the deal with platings? I scratch my head as to why it is so much more expensive and/or time consuming to upgrade jewelry. It is absolutely 100% arbitrarily more difficult than improving other items, and there is no rational argument as to why it is so.

In my opinion, you should get double the XP for deconstructing jewelry, since it drops so much less frequently. You should also get double the mats from it.

Also, grains need to go. Leave it so it's 4 platings for gold, and award a plate instead of a grain in every instance you currently get a grain. Either that or increase grain rewards by 10 fold.

Would this make it significantly more easy to upgrade jewelry? Yep. And since it's less valuable of a skill than the others, I think that's just fine. Plus you get a less significant boost by golding jewelry anyways.

This seems like one of those things that has just remained stupid because it's been stupid for so darn long, everyone has gotten used to it.

1 - 16-17 of my 18 characters are level 50 jewelry. It wasn't crazy difficult


2 - in your assessment of how platings should work you're completely disregarding the economy which is important to any mmo. By making platings so easy to acquire you'd greatly drop the value of gold jewelry which is, for some, a great and sometimes their only source of gold.

So no, your ideas will only create problems for others just to be convenient for you. Doesn't work forget it. Adapt.

mairwen85

They could always reduce the number of grains required per plating, from 10 to say 6-8. That would make life easier for people upgrading and lower the price of grains somewhat, but also lift the number of sales which balances it out, to a degree.

Everest_Lionheart

I_am_Groot wrote: »

Ryath_Waylander wrote: »

d) It is what it is. They've relented slightly by allowing blue, green and purple mats to drop in daily crafting writs. They also halved the platings required to upgrade jewelry. They're not going to give us a further compromise, we're lucky we got anything.

^^ This is it right here, ZOS will not make anymore changes....its a gold sink and a major PIA grind if you really want the gold jewelry and that's how ZOS wants it to be.

I run around with purple jewelry and I do just fine, sometimes I win, sometimes I die...no big deal, its just a game

~ Cheers!

If you’re running around in arcane, robust or healthy jewelry you don’t even really need anything beyond blue. The little bit of a stat boost you do get isn’t going to change much. It doesn’t even affect the enchants for example a max weapon damage glyph is going to net you and extra 174 damage no matter what colour your ring is.

This I works similar to the other body pieces where the base stats barely move at all from purple to gold, but the enchants on armor do scale up with quality. Armor though you get almost nothing out of making your small pieces gold but pieces like chest, legs and helm can give a boost.

Weapons are the only thing you should absolutely make gold anyway otherwise you leave way too much damage on the table.

Jewelry is like real life, let the collectors buy all the expensive stuff while you look and perform the same in your cheap knock off blue quality jewelry!

LuxLunae

Lvling the jewrly is as simple as lvling the other gear...

The mats are just more expensive.. so I usually just have it up to transmute.... I rarely craft rings...

Mobius0

CleymenZero wrote: »

Mobius0 wrote: »

I'm sure this has been complained about since the beginning of time, but what's the deal with jewelry craft being overall 10 times more difficult than other skills, even though it is IMO one of the least valuable crafting skills? Why has this gone on for so long the way it currently is?

Let's just start with leveling jewelry. I literally maxed every single other crafting skill in the time it took me to get to like level 21 in jewelry. I was initially shocked by this, because I assumed it would be FASTER than most of the other skills, since it is less valuable of a craft skill (Woodworking applies to crafting 6 things, clothing 14 things, blacksmithing 13 things, but jewelry just 3, or technically only 2.).

And to make matters worse, what's the deal with platings? I scratch my head as to why it is so much more expensive and/or time consuming to upgrade jewelry. It is absolutely 100% arbitrarily more difficult than improving other items, and there is no rational argument as to why it is so.

In my opinion, you should get double the XP for deconstructing jewelry, since it drops so much less frequently. You should also get double the mats from it.

Also, grains need to go. Leave it so it's 4 platings for gold, and award a plate instead of a grain in every instance you currently get a grain. Either that or increase grain rewards by 10 fold.

Would this make it significantly more easy to upgrade jewelry? Yep. And since it's less valuable of a skill than the others, I think that's just fine. Plus you get a less significant boost by golding jewelry anyways.

This seems like one of those things that has just remained stupid because it's been stupid for so darn long, everyone has gotten used to it.

1 - 16-17 of my 18 characters are level 50 jewelry. It wasn't crazy difficult


2 - in your assessment of how platings should work you're completely disregarding the economy which is important to any mmo. By making platings so easy to acquire you'd greatly drop the value of gold jewelry which is, for some, a great and sometimes their only source of gold.

So no, your ideas will only create problems for others just to be convenient for you. Doesn't work forget it. Adapt.

1)Here we go again, another person advocating making an alt army. If you consider making 18 characters and doing writs on them anything less than difficult, you have a LOT more time to play this game than me. Simply keeping up with undaunted pledges is massively time consuming!

2)I am thankful that you are not in charge of keeping the game economy in good shape!

Clearly as someone with EIGHTEEN max crafted alts, you fall into the category of someone that is making money off of jewelry crafting the way it is, and therefor have a vested interest in keeping it the way it is.

If they were to make platings more abundant, then you'd get more of them to sell, so ultimately the economic impact, even for you, would not change. As a matter of fact, you might even make MORE money, because they would become more available to more people to buy.

Tandor

Mobius0 wrote: »

I know how to level it. Any of those methods are still MUCH slower than raising the other skills, which is the problem with it.

The original design for crafting was to have all the professions scaled in difficulty, hence Provisioning is very quick to level as it was intended to be aimed at the casual crafter as compared with Enchanting at the other end of the scale which was intended to be much slower to level and was aimed at the hardcore crafter. Unfortunately, ZOS caved into the "I want it all now" crowd early on and made all the professions easy to level - reverting to the original design for Jewelry crafting for the reasons given variously above.

RPGplayer13579

Did anyone else read the title of this thread with Seinfeld's voice in your head?

"What's the deal with Jewelry crafting?"

Daemons_Bane

I like that it is difficult, since jewelry can make such a huge difference in our builds.. Yes it might suck that it takes some time to make it to the yellow stage, but we pretty much knew from the start that it would be so.. Doing the writs on a few characters and deconstructing your daily loot makes it decent though.. I don't really see the need for major change

ZaroktheImmortal

I_am_Groot wrote: »

Ryath_Waylander wrote: »

d) It is what it is. They've relented slightly by allowing blue, green and purple mats to drop in daily crafting writs. They also halved the platings required to upgrade jewelry. They're not going to give us a further compromise, we're lucky we got anything.

^^ This is it right here, ZOS will not make anymore changes....its a gold sink and a major PIA grind if you really want the gold jewelry and that's how ZOS wants it to be.

I run around with purple jewelry and I do just fine, sometimes I win, sometimes I die...no big deal, its just a game

~ Cheers!

I'm sorry do either of you work for ZOS? No? Then how is it you have this inside information? My point being you can't claim they won't as neither of you actually have any say over their decisions and we all know they have made major changes on things. Saying 'ZOS won't change this' is an assumption not an argument against it changing.

markulrich1966

you can level up jewelry crafting quickly during events, or running dolmen or harrowstorms with dailies.
Have 8 or 9 jewelry crafters on EU (xbox), and some on NA.

I get some platinum grains every day from daily writs, and those don't take very long, as most of my crafters have full skills in just 2-3 crafting lines (am too lazy to farm more skyshards).

In fact, it is concerning how easy you get gold mats by crafting. Look around where most people are located: at crafting stations, not at worldbosses or delves to do dailies or quests.

This system contributes to the problem, that platforms like xbox EU become unplayable, as the few remaining players no longer play content that requires a (small) group, like daily worldbosses. Instead they grind the rewards from writs. I get ~80-100k reward (gold, mats) from 1-2 hours of writs, that is much more than doing other tasks.

Apart from that, as someone wrote above: the gain you get from golding out jewelry is minimal, less than 1%.
Spell damage purple: 168, gold 174 (3%). As spell damage is not overall damage, you don't increase your overall damage by these 3%, it will be less than 1%. So after verifying it in practice on my main where I felt no advantage, I did not upgrade my other toon's jewelry, and instead made a lot of gold selling the platings.

Mobius0

So basically what I am gathering from this, is the people with 50 bazillion crafting writ alts defend the system as it is. Got it.

I still have seen no sound argument as to why it should be as it is, other than "I like it this way." I might like it this way too if I was making tons of gold doing writs out of my ears.

Sounds to me like the writ system is also a cancer, with all the multiple character abuse.

tmbrinks

Mobius0 wrote: »

So basically what I am gathering from this, is the people with 50 bazillion crafting writ alts defend the system as it is. Got it.

I still have seen no sound argument as to why it should be as it is, other than "I like it this way." I might like it this way too if I was making tons of gold doing writs out of my ears.

Sounds to me like the writ system is also a cancer, with all the multiple character abuse.

That is disingenuous and you know it.

There have been more reasons given then that.

I repeat

ZoS has explicitly stated that they didn't want jewelry to be as easily upgraded as the other crafts. They didn't want to dilute the veteran trial modes (because then just run normal and upgrade the jewelry) and the Golden Vendor (which is intricately linked to the amount of AP earned, and achievements, and the 800 other things you CAN buy with AP, like alliance pots, gear coffers, etc...)

But, you do you. (There's also a reason many of the posts pointing those out have gotten more "likes" than your original post)

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Katahdin wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

I strongly disagree with gold jewelry should be hard to get statements here most sets don’t drop in gold. Yes the golden vendor helps but the chances to get your set is slim. Jewelry crafting is trash if you have a niche build.

I have 18 max level crafters don’t tell me it’s worth it that’s two hours a day just on crafting daily let alone any of the dozens of grinds you have to do here. You will get 54 transmutation stones a day doing undaunted that would 3-4 hours that’s 6 hours a day on the game and nothing done.

That's why you pick one or two to do... it is an MMO.

Then take care of the others through that one that you do grind.

You mostly get grains from dailies not plates and you need ten grains to make one plate. So when you would you farm normally plus dailies from 18 characters in a week you still don’t have enough to gold out one jewelry set fully to get all your guys gold will take months and that’s just one set per.

If Im grinding 18 characters a day I should be seeing better results then this grinds are the main reason I make months off the game it’s just not worth it most times

You must have very bad RNG indeed.
I do writs on 2 characters most of the time unless its the anniversary event, then I do them on 18.
I decon the yellow jewelry I get from trials or PVP that I cant use and I farm a little bit of jewlery mats as I run around doing other stuff.

I have probably upgraded at least 12 pieces since jewelry crafing became a thing and I have around 15 platings on my account right now. Ive sold one here and there and Ive never bought any or any grains that I recall.

Yea the platings are annoying but as stated by others, this is intended because ZoS did not want jewelry crafting to supplant running trials or the golden vendor.

It’s not bad RNG I got green and blue GRAINS most of the time the system is just half done and was made this way. I keep seeing over and over again what about trials?!? What about players that use niche sets and the people that run full crafted sets?

You can’t “earn” the drop you want you want cause it’s not a trial set so no drops or gold rewards, you can’t buy it from The Golden cause it’s not on the list this weekend, with the number of sets in the game it’s a slim chance you will see your favorite set. But you can’t make it even if you grind for it you get 4-7 gold mats per 1000 raw refined needing 12 gold plates so just for a breakdown.

Raw dust 1,000 - gold grains 4 / 7 : 0 plates
Raw dust 10,000 - gold grains 40 / 70 : 4 / 7 plates
Raw dust 20,000 - gold grains 80 / 140 : 8 / 14 plates

You have to decon 20,000 raw mats before you can make ONE CHARACTER’S jewelry gold. It’s disrespectful to players that use crafted sets. I know it’s not BiS but so many people really don’t care about BiS for the meta they just want to be there best. On a build they enjoy.

Mobius0

tmbrinks wrote: »

Mobius0 wrote: »

So basically what I am gathering from this, is the people with 50 bazillion crafting writ alts defend the system as it is. Got it.

I still have seen no sound argument as to why it should be as it is, other than "I like it this way." I might like it this way too if I was making tons of gold doing writs out of my ears.

Sounds to me like the writ system is also a cancer, with all the multiple character abuse.

That is disingenuous and you know it.

There have been more reasons given then that.

I repeat

ZoS has explicitly stated that they didn't want jewelry to be as easily upgraded as the other crafts. They didn't want to dilute the veteran trial modes (because then just run normal and upgrade the jewelry) and the Golden Vendor (which is intricately linked to the amount of AP earned, and achievements, and the 800 other things you CAN buy with AP, like alliance pots, gear coffers, etc...)

But, you do you. (There's also a reason many of the posts pointing those out have gotten more "likes" than your original post)

First of all, I would love to see where they explicitly said this. And even if they did, it doesn't magically make the system ok as it is.

Just because you can get lucky on occasion at the gold vendor and get what you happen to want (or spend a ton of AP for a few grains.), doesn't justify the onscene cost to upgrade normally.

Even if they made it easier to upgrade, it wouldn't somehow stop people from doing vet trials. Not only that, but it seems like doing writs is where it's at for gold jewelry, and not the gold vendor or trials. Doing it that way either requires being lucky enough to have the item you want, or decuntructing for a lifetime.

You are just using those small little things as a diversion to the real issue - That most people can't afford to gold their jewelry.

Of course, as I already pointed out, and you yourself so blatantly made obvious- You have a vested interest in keeping it the way it is, because you are farming writs on multiple characters, amassing so much wealth it doesn't matter to you that it costs so much.

Let's just ignore the fact that jewelry is less important than other gear, yet is like 5 times more expensive to upgrade. All the reasons you have given me are arbitrary, very minor, and quite frankly nothing but straw men.