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A solution to procdamagesets without nerfing the sets or malacath

oscarovegren
oscarovegren
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The solution would be not being able to proc a damage procsets within the cooldown of another damage proc set. That way several proc sets cant alone take someone down.

For example: Icy conjuror has a 10 sec cooldown. When icy procs no damage proc set can proc until the cooldown of icy is over

This would prevent healthproctanks or builds with 3 offensive damage procsets builds to rely on procdmg alone as their offensive toolkit

That way you can have 1 decent strong procset but procsets cant completely carry the majority of your damage
  • Rex-Umbra
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    Good suggestion all ZOS hears is nerf nightblade.
    Xbox GT: Rex Umbrah
    GM of IMPERIUM since 2015.
  • technohic
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    So in short, a global proc cooldown. Sounds fair
  • WhyMustItBe
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    technohic wrote: »
    So in short, a global proc cooldown. Sounds fair

    Eh, this sounds really bad to me. You give up a lot of offensive stats to run proc sets so without a huge rebalance to the other weights this would just make procs sets useless.

    There are a lot of things they could do that would make the situation with proc sets in PVP better without ruining PVE, like making them behave differently in PVP zones. A flat global cooldown on all sets I do not feel is one of the however.
  • oscarovegren
    oscarovegren
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    technohic wrote: »
    So in short, a global proc cooldown. Sounds fair

    Eh, this sounds really bad to me. You give up a lot of offensive stats to run proc sets so without a huge rebalance to the other weights this would just make procs sets useless.

    There are a lot of things they could do that would make the situation with proc sets in PVP better without ruining PVE, like making them behave differently in PVP zones. A flat global cooldown on all sets I do not feel is one of the however.

    This could be a battlespirit modifier. No cooldown modifier in PvE
  • oscarovegren
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    Make procs scale with damage stats - the issue is a tank can run and do good damage without giving anything up.
    @Unified_Gaming

    Thats also a solution! That or just being able to utilise 1 proc set with the proc dmg set cooldown
  • Ylikollikas
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    The solution would be not being able to proc a damage procsets within the cooldown of another damage proc set. That way several proc sets cant alone take someone down.

    Suggestion is maybe good, but we all know this will never, ever happen. Only "solution" that ZoS will realistically do is nerf procs yet again in the update after Stonethorn.

  • katorga
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    Make procs scale with damage stats - the issue is a tank can run and do good damage without giving anything up.
    @Unified_Gaming

    Thats also a solution! That or just being able to utilise 1 proc set with the proc dmg set cooldown

    The problem is they all proc at once with no condition on cooldown. The solution is to return the previous random proc chance model.

    Making procs scale with stats....omg. You will simply shift from a tank slowly trying to whittle you down with procs, to a high damage tanky build one shotting you.
    Edited by katorga on August 10, 2020 1:33PM
  • Czekoludek
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    Maybe not for the whole duration cuz it would destroy the sets but 3 sec gcd on proc from sets like zaan, calurion etc would make them less bursty
  • oscarovegren
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    Czekoludek wrote: »
    Maybe not for the whole duration cuz it would destroy the sets but 3 sec gcd on proc from sets like zaan, calurion etc would make them less bursty

    You could run 1 procset without any difference. The change would only apply of you wear several dmg proc sets
  • sharquez
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    Don't know what there is to solve. This is how they want the game to be played. Many other games have found success in letting players instagib eachother. Honestly isn't that the most balanced way? Use whatever colors and effects you want on your character and have those tailor set up sparkles blow up your opponent in the way you chose? You can still push buttons to outskill your opponent its just putting an end to the endless combat nature of some fights by upping the kill potential of everyone which is imho the right thing to do.
    At least 3 of each class. PVPing Since IC.
  • Atherakhia
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    I'm really not sure either solution discussed in this thread would really solve anything. The idea that proc sets have a shared cooldown timer seems punitive for people who run multiple proc sets, and lets face it, there are limited non-proc sets out there to choose from. Are we only considering offensive damage based procs? What about things that are purely defensive like bloodspawn or trollking? These sets would be even more useless than they are now if they also couldn't proc during the 10 seconds a player has Icy on the target. I think this approach would require an enormous amount of retooling for proc sets.

    Similarly for basing proc set damage off our stats. Do we really want stamina procs based of magicka? And what's the baseline damage? Are we to assume the damage we see today is the highest point of damage we should ever consider? For example, is the damage on Venomous Smite right now assuming a player is wearing all stamina + divines + fully buffed and with food? Or is the damage on Venomous Smite really just an average based off the stats on its own set and this damage could effectively go up a further 50% when you consider a player with all divines or all infused? Again, I think this would require an enormous amount of effort to resolve and would have far reaching consequences in PVE.

    I'm also not sure if Malacath is the problem? Is it reasonable to assume that players who are using non-crit based proc sets are almost all running Malacath currently? Is it safe to assume that the only reason Stamina Classes are running Malacath is because they're running proc sets and Malacath would largely be used only by Magicka classes if they made Malacath not increase proc set damage?

    We already have a blanket 50% damage reduction in PvP. Perhaps just making this heavier on proc set damage? Perhaps change the impen trait to reduce crit chance and the damage from proc sets by X%? Perhaps just nerfing Malacath is all we need?

    Whatever solution they choose, it's safe to assume that ZOS would only ever consider the change that takes the least amount of effort to implement. That would likely be a Malacath nerf or a change to Impen imo.
    Edited by Atherakhia on August 10, 2020 2:37PM
  • Neoauspex
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    Just put a counter for proc sets in the game. Skill or set that reflects proc damage every 5/10 seconds etc.

    Balance with counters.
    Edited by Neoauspex on August 10, 2020 2:37PM
  • nk125x
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    How about a cool-down on the cool-downs as with the AOE cool-downs.

    and then we can have a further cool-down on everything so we have the cool-down meta
  • Sleep724
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    nk125x wrote: »
    How about a cool-down on the cool-downs as with the AOE cool-downs.

    and then we can have a further cool-down on everything so we have the cool-down meta

    Yo dawg.

    Just add to malacath that it’s damage done does not affect proc sets.
  • universal_wrath
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    The solution would be not being able to proc a damage procsets within the cooldown of another damage proc set. That way several proc sets cant alone take someone down.

    For example: Icy conjuror has a 10 sec cooldown. When icy procs no damage proc set can proc until the cooldown of icy is over

    This would prevent healthproctanks or builds with 3 offensive damage procsets builds to rely on procdmg alone as their offensive toolkit

    That way you can have 1 decent strong procset but procsets cant completely carry the majority of your damage

    That is a nerf. I use both icy conjuror and ice furnace and iceheart on my PvE frost warden. What you say is I need to detch two of those sets because I can't have them activated together. I use these sets mainly because they look good and support my frost warden theme. I also use red mountain and venomous with zaan on my stamuna dragonknight for PvE, I also like the visual effect for that one too. My tank uses lunar baation, alkosh and engine guardian. Proc sets are great for theme builds. In pvp, would you ve able to activate balrough if venomous or any other proc set still active? What about interaction between healing/support proc sets with damage sets? Will you be able to proc combat physicain/iceheart or chokthorn while icy conjuror/venomous/sheer venom is active or on cooldown?

    Shared cooldown is not a solution, it will only open up doors to different ideas of nerfs like the curremt shared cooldown on AOE skills. Damage nerfs or returnung chance based condition is far better. There was alway something that buged my out, percentage proc conditions are not what they same, they are actually higher than intended. Like valken skoria before it bugged, you can have it proc almost on cooldown just by using 1 dot skill while the set has only 8% chance to proc abd there are many sets like that.
    Edited by universal_wrath on August 11, 2020 8:39AM
  • universal_wrath
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    Atherakhia wrote: »
    I'm really not sure either solution discussed in this thread would really solve anything. The idea that proc sets have a shared cooldown timer seems punitive for people who run multiple proc sets, and lets face it, there are limited non-proc sets out there to choose from. Are we only considering offensive damage based procs? What about things that are purely defensive like bloodspawn or trollking? These sets would be even more useless than they are now if they also couldn't proc during the 10 seconds a player has Icy on the target. I think this approach would require an enormous amount of retooling for proc sets.

    Similarly for basing proc set damage off our stats. Do we really want stamina procs based of magicka? And what's the baseline damage? Are we to assume the damage we see today is the highest point of damage we should ever consider? For example, is the damage on Venomous Smite right now assuming a player is wearing all stamina + divines + fully buffed and with food? Or is the damage on Venomous Smite really just an average based off the stats on its own set and this damage could effectively go up a further 50% when you consider a player with all divines or all infused? Again, I think this would require an enormous amount of effort to resolve and would have far reaching consequences in PVE.

    I'm also not sure if Malacath is the problem? Is it reasonable to assume that players who are using non-crit based proc sets are almost all running Malacath currently? Is it safe to assume that the only reason Stamina Classes are running Malacath is because they're running proc sets and Malacath would largely be used only by Magicka classes if they made Malacath not increase proc set damage?

    We already have a blanket 50% damage reduction in PvP. Perhaps just making this heavier on proc set damage? Perhaps change the impen trait to reduce crit chance and the damage from proc sets by X%? Perhaps just nerfing Malacath is all we need?

    Whatever solution they choose, it's safe to assume that ZOS would only ever consider the change that takes the least amount of effort to implement. That would likely be a Malacath nerf or a change to Impen imo.

    Probably most effective way to balance proc sets is to have them scale with highest offensive stats. Currently you can kill people with with stats like this 2k weapon damge,15k stam, and 35k HP if you wear 2 or 3 proper proc sets, basically carry. Having proc sets scale with offensive stats mean you take into account how much spell/weapon damage and max resources you have. Current damage of proc sets can be reduced to 25-30%. The damage can increase by up to 40-50% with maximum offensive stats possible while wearing 1 or 2 proc sets, like you need 30k stam/mag and 4k weapon/spell damage or something in between.
  • Kittytravel
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    Sleep724 wrote: »
    nk125x wrote: »
    How about a cool-down on the cool-downs as with the AOE cool-downs.

    and then we can have a further cool-down on everything so we have the cool-down meta

    Yo dawg.

    Just add to malacath that it’s damage done does not affect proc sets.

    Problem with that is then we go down to 1 useful mythic. Thrassians already garbage with the upcoming patch even with the minor buffs to it and Malacath is literally only used because of its proc set condition. On top of which Malacath already sacrifices a lot of stats on its own because a lot of proc sets have crit rating on their bonuses.

    If anything a battle spirit proc-specific nerf of 25% would remove the Malacath threat. Overall I wish they would buff some of these mythics to be more competitive but not over the top; but since they have PvP Malacath will never see a buff.
  • Olupajmibanan
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    katorga wrote: »
    Make procs scale with damage stats - the issue is a tank can run and do good damage without giving anything up.
    @Unified_Gaming

    Thats also a solution! That or just being able to utilise 1 proc set with the proc dmg set cooldown

    The problem is they all proc at once with no condition on cooldown. The solution is to return the previous random proc chance model.

    Making procs scale with stats....omg. You will simply shift from a tank slowly trying to whittle you down with procs, to a high damage tanky build one shotting you.

    No, the solution is actually as long as you need a damn looot of spell damage and magicka to achieve at least the damage of proc sets we have now.

    Simply, make it scale from stats in such a way that unless you invest a lot into it, proc sets won't be worth.
  • Xvorg
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    The solution would be not being able to proc a damage procsets within the cooldown of another damage proc set. That way several proc sets cant alone take someone down.

    For example: Icy conjuror has a 10 sec cooldown. When icy procs no damage proc set can proc until the cooldown of icy is over

    This would prevent healthproctanks or builds with 3 offensive damage procsets builds to rely on procdmg alone as their offensive toolkit

    That way you can have 1 decent strong procset but procsets cant completely carry the majority of your damage

    More maths on spaghetti code?
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
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    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • kathandira
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    The solution would be not being able to proc a damage procsets within the cooldown of another damage proc set. That way several proc sets cant alone take someone down.

    For example: Icy conjuror has a 10 sec cooldown. When icy procs no damage proc set can proc until the cooldown of icy is over

    This would prevent healthproctanks or builds with 3 offensive damage procsets builds to rely on procdmg alone as their offensive toolkit

    That way you can have 1 decent strong procset but procsets cant completely carry the majority of your damage

    On one hand you have people saying that the best part of this game is the fast paced action.

    On the other hand, you have things like this, which would slow down combat.

    Not sure which side i'm on here.
    PS4-NA. Breton Templar Healer, Bosmer Stamplar, Breton Magplar, Orsimer StamDK, Dunmer MagDK, Khajiit StamNB, Dunmer MagNB, Argonian Warden Tank, Altmer Magsorc
  • danno8
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    The solution would be not being able to proc a damage procsets within the cooldown of another damage proc set. That way several proc sets cant alone take someone down.

    For example: Icy conjuror has a 10 sec cooldown. When icy procs no damage proc set can proc until the cooldown of icy is over

    This would prevent healthproctanks or builds with 3 offensive damage procsets builds to rely on procdmg alone as their offensive toolkit

    That way you can have 1 decent strong procset but procsets cant completely carry the majority of your damage

    The problem here is that whatever set you are wearing that has the most likely chance to proc off CD is the one set that will keep proccing over and over, continuously out-competing other sets for the chance to proc.

    For example if you have some sets that proc on a LA (100%), they will always be the ones to proc compared to ones that proc off of, say, crit damage.

    Also, what if you use two sets that have the same proc condition and they both proc together during the off-CD period. Which one gets to activate? Random? Alphabetical order (lol)?

    What about sets that require several things to occur, like consecutive LA or such?

    I think the better bet is just increase CD's on all sets to make them less of a factor in PvP using Battle Spirit Something like "all set proc bonuses have 50% increased CD's". Can leave PvE alone that way.
  • Rungar
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    Would be better if proc sets cost ultimate. This way its self balancing. Defensive sets would be relatively cheap like 1-3 ultimate and offensive but indirect 3-8 and damage procs 8-15 per proc.

    If you chose 3 damage proc sets it would have a signifigant ultimate cost.
    Edited by Rungar on August 11, 2020 7:44PM
    It's 0.0666 of a second to midnight.

    Rungar's Mystical Emporium
  • Olupajmibanan
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    Rungar wrote: »
    Would be better if proc sets cost ultimate. This way its self balancing. Defensive sets would be relatively cheap like 1-3 ultimate and offensive but indirect 3-8 and damage procs 8-15 per proc.

    If you chose 3 damage proc sets it would have a signifigant ultimate cost.

    I think that this might need a lot of work to incorporate such a condition into Battle Spirit.
  • Nerhesi
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    Proc sets have to better than just stats at doing damage - and by far.

    Otherwise why have a trap choice? Why make proc sets the choice for lazy / unwilling players and only have the same one option for the 6+ years.. (max stats and sustain)

    As someone said earlier, you just need a counter to proc sets.

    Next steps is to nerf sustain/healing on dps choices - so you crumple even faster against proc sets. Then you introduce another meta that does really well vs proc sets, but then loses against the traditional old school max say/mag or wpn/spldmg builds.

    Then maybe... maybe you’ll have meaningful choices in this game.

    Sam W
  • Rungar
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    Rungar wrote: »
    Would be better if proc sets cost ultimate. This way its self balancing. Defensive sets would be relatively cheap like 1-3 ultimate and offensive but indirect 3-8 and damage procs 8-15 per proc.

    If you chose 3 damage proc sets it would have a signifigant ultimate cost.

    I think that this might need a lot of work to incorporate such a condition into Battle Spirit.

    For pve too. I firmly believe many of this games problems are the result of straying from the design philosophy that "resources determine everything".

    This also lets them develop more powerful proc sets since they are now balanced by cost.

    Everything must have a cost.
    It's 0.0666 of a second to midnight.

    Rungar's Mystical Emporium
  • relentless_turnip
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    Sleep724 wrote: »
    nk125x wrote: »
    How about a cool-down on the cool-downs as with the AOE cool-downs.

    and then we can have a further cool-down on everything so we have the cool-down meta

    Yo dawg.

    Just add to malacath that it’s damage done does not affect proc sets.

    Problem with that is then we go down to 1 useful mythic. Thrassians already garbage with the upcoming patch even with the minor buffs to it and Malacath is literally only used because of its proc set condition. On top of which Malacath already sacrifices a lot of stats on its own because a lot of proc sets have crit rating on their bonuses.

    If anything a battle spirit proc-specific nerf of 25% would remove the Malacath threat. Overall I wish they would buff some of these mythics to be more competitive but not over the top; but since they have PvP Malacath will never see a buff.

    I use malacath on a heavy dot build, is very strong without proc sets and also on my magdk(i wouldn't miss it buffing grothdaar)

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=262500

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=244723

    It shouldn't effect them in my opinion, if they could alleviate the incoming proc meta by just a bit this would really help.
    They should reduce proc sets in some way in pvp in general and give them selves room to close the APM gap in PVE.
    I don't think they would because at this point they are desperate to fix performance and making procs stronger than skills it is a great way to incentives players from using skills :lol:

    I use tonal and wild hunt on a few builds. I think all of them are a good addition to the game.
    Snow treaders are very strong(though I haven't tried them yet, i've heard good things), I would say the blood chest thingy is a little too much work :lol:

  • oscarovegren
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    Czekoludek wrote: »
    Maybe not for the whole duration cuz it would destroy the sets but 3 sec gcd on proc from sets like zaan, calurion etc would make them less bursty

    You could run 1 procset without any difference. The change would only apply of you wear several dmg proc sets
    The solution would be not being able to proc a damage procsets within the cooldown of another damage proc set. That way several proc sets cant alone take someone down.

    For example: Icy conjuror has a 10 sec cooldown. When icy procs no damage proc set can proc until the cooldown of icy is over

    This would prevent healthproctanks or builds with 3 offensive damage procsets builds to rely on procdmg alone as their offensive toolkit

    That way you can have 1 decent strong procset but procsets cant completely carry the majority of your damage

    That is a nerf. I use both icy conjuror and ice furnace and iceheart on my PvE frost warden. What you say is I need to detch two of those sets because I can't have them activated together. I use these sets mainly because they look good and support my frost warden theme. I also use red mountain and venomous with zaan on my stamuna dragonknight for PvE, I also like the visual effect for that one too. My tank uses lunar baation, alkosh and engine guardian. Proc sets are great for theme builds. In pvp, would you ve able to activate balrough if venomous or any other proc set still active? What about interaction between healing/support proc sets with damage sets? Will you be able to proc combat physicain/iceheart or chokthorn while icy conjuror/venomous/sheer venom is active or on cooldown?

    Shared cooldown is not a solution, it will only open up doors to different ideas of nerfs like the curremt shared cooldown on AOE skills. Damage nerfs or returnung chance based condition is far better. There was alway something that buged my out, percentage proc conditions are not what they same, they are actually higher than intended. Like valken skoria before it bugged, you can have it proc almost on cooldown just by using 1 dot skill while the set has only 8% chance to proc abd there are many sets like that.

    This would be a battlespirit (PvP) rule. This should not effect PvE where procsets are more balanced to statbased sets
  • Firstmep
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    sharquez wrote: »
    Don't know what there is to solve. This is how they want the game to be played. Many other games have found success in letting players instagib eachother. Honestly isn't that the most balanced way? Use whatever colors and effects you want on your character and have those tailor set up sparkles blow up your opponent in the way you chose? You can still push buttons to outskill your opponent its just putting an end to the endless combat nature of some fights by upping the kill potential of everyone which is imho the right thing to do.

    Thing is people are building tankier and tankier due to high damage.
    We have wardens running around with emperor lvls of hp and dmg.
    Also a lot of playstyle like running light armor on most Magicka classes just gets completely erased.
    Try going into a bg on light armor toon(that's not sorc), with 15-18k resistances and you either get blown up instantly or you never leave your backbar due to the sheer pressure proc set put out.
    Medium armor is a little bit better due to being able to dodgeroll more, but if you get multiple dot procs on you in medium, it can easily be lights out in a few seconds.
    There's a reason why the meta is shifting from multiple dot procs to heavy armor with multiple procs on nearly everything.
    It also erodes class identity even further as your armor will define your character far more than your class.
  • BalticBlues
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    Firstmep wrote: »
    A lot of playstyle like running light armor on most Magicka classes just gets completely erased.[...] Try going into a bg on light armor toon(that's not sorc), with 15-18k resistances and you either get blown up instantly or you never leave your backbar due to the sheer pressure proc set put out.
    THIS. IS. THE. BIGGEST. PROBLEM.
    The current HeavyArmor-Proc/Malacath meta is WORSE
    than the LightArmor-Shield meta ever was.

    Light Armor was nerfed at a time when damage was modest.
    Now that damage explodes, Light Armor is useless on every class except Sorcs.
    How about "Make Light Armor shields great again"?

    How about a new Mythic item like "Shalidor's Band of Protection"
    which would be restoring the original 100% shield strength on Light Armor?
    This way Shalidor's Band could protect LA users from Malacth's Band HA users.

    Edited by BalticBlues on November 16, 2020 11:19AM
  • oscarovegren
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    Remove base crit resist to make no-mala/proc builds more equal to mala/proc builds
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