Stamina DKs and Wardens needs buffs

Skjaldbjorn

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Honestly, yes.

StamDKs ought have their own distinctive ability to replace FoB just as they ought to have a Poison Damage morph of Standard. You could easily reach back to Daggerfall and give them Acidic Field as an alternative.

Similarly, give me an Ice Wraith over Brother Bear all day, every day for a magDen. The Clannfear is really more of the tanking morph for Sorcerers so that's no real bother either. Another Sorcerer skill, Streak, is probably a better comparison, but nobody is using that for damage so leaving that to Magicka-only scaling would also be fine.

@YandereGirlfriend I think this is where the disconnect is. Yes, I would love that. I would love for Stam DK to have really cool, immersive poison skills across the board. They don't. Zos has made it painfully clear over the three or four years I have played this game that redesigning old classes isn't their thing. They make changes, sure. They add skills from time to time, but most of them are simply very easy, simple conversions. They don't typically line up with anything close to fan requests, either.

IMO, having "scales to highest stats" abilities is a developer cop-out because they couldn't come up with (or have time to implement) something better as an alternative class skill. Things like Soul Trap scaling with Stamina doesn't even make sense in Elder Scrolls lore and was only implemented because players whined at ZOS and that was the least-effort solution to the problem.

To a point, I agree. With sustain as horrendous as it is, and imbalanced from class to class to alarming levels, I think highest stat scaling abilities can be okay. They can also aid in solo or small-scale group players benefiting from class passives they would not otherwise interact with. They can also be extremely cool ways to add thematic elements, like fire to a Stam DK without being overly imposing on DK's "fire caster" feel. Again, people get so disjointed with magicka/stamina separation, but classes should be the focus here.

If the roles were reversed and Magdens only had Permafrost while Stamdens had the bear, I would riot to get you guys a morph of the bear if I felt it would help your side of the class. It's not about thematics, it's about function, RPG or not. It doesn't matter how cool or pretty something looks if it performs like ass. ESO is a prime example.

It's also not about "taking away" an ability per se, it's about recognizing that we are building characters in an RPG setting and that characters (unless they are hybrids) cannot be equally good at doing all things. Max resources scaling is a meta-game (in the true sense of "things outside of the game [e.g. player demands, lack of development resources] influencing what is inside of the game") exercise that better initial planning for the classes and combat system and/or more present-day developer resources could have avoided.

As a lifelong RPG and MMO gamer, from Baldur's Gate when I was about 12 or 13 to EQ for seven and a half years, WoW for six and a half, Guild Wars/Guild Wars 2 for five years, and a multitude of other single and multiplayer RPGs along the way, the one thing I will not accept is an excuse of "character theme" for why classes should be left in the dirt to rot for TWO YEARS without any meaningful changes. That's absurd and nonsensical. Whether or not the developers are lazy, or simply lack the time/resources as they focus on improving game stability, that's not an excuse. They dropped our damage passive because PVPers cried. They nerfed the bear. They nerfed birds and tacked on that trashbag bleed passive which is absolutely abysmal by every measure of what makes ESO rotations fun and engaging. Every Stamden change since Wrathstone has been unequivocally god awful.

As I said to Nightingale previously, this change could be handled with a line or two of code, and then reverted so easily it's actually mind-numbing once Zos was ready to overhaul Wardens. It's a band-aid which is better than the absolutely nothing Stamden has been receiving. It's a temporary fix.

Even if you are a Stamina character you can still make use of Magicka skills (and vice versa) if they provide enough utility to make it worth your while (Streak comes immediately to mind even if it did no damage at all). We see this most commonly in PvP where there are more considerations at play than simply dealing damage.

Ultimately, however, it all boils down to the fact that this is an RPG and that stats such as Magicka and Stamina are abstractions meant to symbolize what aspect of your character you are using when you perform a certain action. If a skill costs Magicka, it is because you are using a spell of some sort and ought to scale off of those stats, whereas Stamina implies a Physical action and vice versa. (There are, of course, awkward kludge skills like Bound Daggers that blur these lines, but that is basically par excellence of how fan pressure precipitated a strange and unsatisfying "solution" from ZOS.)

Sure, and in PVP, fundamentally I agree with you. PVP is much more open-ended as far as what's good. Situational skills can become highly prized very easily. In PVE, there's a level of "brass tax" that people just love to avoid as though it doesn't exist. If you aren't bringing a very useful buff or you're not high damage, you are effectively worthless, useless and forgotten. Let me show you.

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/14#boss=48&class=Warden&spec=StaminaDPS

^ There are the Stamina Warden vKA HM clears that have been logged. One. Guess who it is? Me. Right here. Hand raised. There are five Stam DKs, 4 Stam Sorcs, 7 Stamblades, 18 Stamcros and 31 Stamplars on those lists. If I hadn't taken the time to actually clear on my Stamden, it'd be a goose egg and tied with effing Werewolf DPS for number of clears. I know we're in a Magicka meta, but jfc.

StamDens aren't Cryomancers because fundamentally Frost is a Magic damage type and in the uninspired attribute system of ESO that means it isn't there for Stamina characters to use (if they want to be efficient, at least). It is a tragedy that high-performance hybrids are not really possible but it is what it is (until, hopefully, it isn't). Making Gripping Shards a Max Stats skill would be another fan-service compromise that makes no sense within either the lore or the very combat system that ZOS designs and maintains. In short, it would be an ostentatious band-aid when they can and should do better to improve the stamDen sub-class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5xst39v8wE

Warden. Two-handed sword. Casts a frost spell. CLASS thematics, not build. Class. Say it with me. This jealousy, this greed over having "something all my own" is just silly. Like I said, if Magdens didn't get the bear, i'd fight tooth and nail to ensure they did for balance reasons, because I know damn well Zos isn't going to invent a new ultimate specifically for them.

Now, I am open-minded and do genuinely want to help stamDens (indeed, it wasn't so long ago that magDens were sharing the basement with them). While I personally believe that Corrupting Pollen is the better solution, if changing Gripping Shards is what it takes to help the class, then, as I've said, so be it.

But, even within that framework, it could still be improved from a thematic perspective. Make the skill do Bleed Damage (you are, after all, impaling enemies with spears of jagged ice). Then, as I've said before, give the Savage Beast passive a ~10-15% buff to all sources of Bleed Damage. Give Brother Bear a Bleed-on-maul as well and really go all-in on the Beastmaster theme.

I would be fine with all that as long as it still costs Magicka. That's one of the key elements that makes the "Highest Offensive Stat" concept so appealing - sustain. Stamina DPS are currently in two camps, high sustain or living in the basement. The two basement classes (DK, Stamplar) already has a "Highest Offensive Stat" option. Stamblades do as well. Stamdens need theirs now to compete in the sustain department.

Skjaldbjorn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Winstonshead wrote: »

oscarovegren wrote: »

For warden they could make winters revenge scale of the highest offensive stat. That way they will receive a very strong AoE DoT and the chilled crit bonus. That would be a good improvement

sounds good

can magden then get a unique and powerful damage skill to differentiate the 2 subclasses? because frankly doing that ruins what remains of the difference between them.

As I have posted repeatedly and even submitted to multiple class reps, instead of changing Winter's Revenge, change Gripping Shards. It allows Magdens to retain the identity of WR, including being a targeted ground-based AoE, and giving Stamden love at the same time. You can't make the argument that "Stam can't have an ice spell" unless you're comfortable making Animals a Stam-exclusive concept, including the bear. That is mental gymnastics.

what is the difference between the 2 skills apart from scaling at that point? same theme. I've already lightened up on the point and now just want a unique frost damage skill that only magden uses. you can have gripping shards if you want. i'm honestly getting disillusioned with the game because of the PvP aoe cooldown ***.

Targeting. Functionality. I would be happy if Zos gave Maden completely new frost skills. No argument from me. But i'm just as disillusioned and exhausted with a community that cares infinitely more about thematics and "pretty things" than actual function. I'm over here driving a Honda with 250k miles and just wanna upgrade to one with less than 200, but half this community wants a '20 Lexus with all the trimmings and refuses to even accept anything less.