Stamina DKs and Wardens needs buffs
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CleymenZero✭✭✭✭✭
✭Winstonshead wrote: »They have lowest DPS atm, and it will be in next patch too.
Give attention to that classes please.
But they [snip] up in PvP so they're not gonna get anything....
[Edited for Censor Bypass]Edited by Psiion on August 15, 2020 2:28AM0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭Stamden might be a fun class to play and can hold its own solo, but it’s getting laughed right out of most vet trial runs. I really want to be able to play this class for the hardest content because it’s such a fast and fun build to play, but oh well back to MagDK and magplar forever I suppose.1 -
Selot✭✭✭Are you serious? Wardens are the strongest stam classes.Edited by Selot on June 6, 2021 2:15AM1 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
If You're fighting in meele and You want to proc axe bleed that means You have acces to meele spammables already in weapon skill lines. Instead of asking for stamwhip You can ask for meele stone giant to get the same result but with less impact on the class. I could agree with poisoned status effect argument if stamwhip would be posion dmg based but even then I consider it a weak argument since it wouldn't be sustain of high magnitude same as flame whip is not giving that much sustain on a mag dk. So as I've said stamwhip brings nothing for a stam dk. Nothing very important atleast.
I remember the days when venomous claw was the spammable for stam DK. Instead of tweaking that idea, they just deleted it
Because it was something it was never meant to be. People started to use venomous as spammable because it was cheap and was nicely feeling the gaps between DoTs timers and also allowed to slot 1 more DoT instead of some regular spammable. Rending slashes shares similar story. But both venomous and rending slashes were not designed to be spammable abilities. Stone giant on the other hand is designed as spammable.Edited by Juhasow on August 15, 2020 8:52AM0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
If You're fighting in meele and You want to proc axe bleed that means You have acces to meele spammables already in weapon skill lines. Instead of asking for stamwhip You can ask for meele stone giant to get the same result but with less impact on the class. I could agree with poisoned status effect argument if stamwhip would be posion dmg based but even then I consider it a weak argument since it wouldn't be sustain of high magnitude same as flame whip is not giving that much sustain on a mag dk. So as I've said stamwhip brings nothing for a stam dk. Nothing very important atleast.
The problem that everyone forgets with a melee stone giant is that the other morph is ranged. That would mean three unique animations for one skill. These developers are nickel and diming every resource they put in this game. It's not going to happen.
I am uncomfortable with a class relying on weapons skills. Remember PI? Rending? Nerfs because it's strong for everyone but nerfs classes that rely exclusively on those skills alot harder.
Sorry but I consider these arguments as even weaker then previous ones. As for stone giant I was talking about asking ZoS to change ranged morph into meele one since it better fits the class. As for "resopurce saving argument" I mean come on...
PI and rending were never designed to be spammables. Both weapon skill lines those skills are coming from have sammables already and it was players choices to ignore that. It had nothing to do with class balance but more to do with metas that were present at that time. There was no harder impact on classes that "relied" on those abilities since them relying on those abilities was just alternative to not use spammables in ther rotation but instead turn abilities designed as DoTs into spammables and by that to bypass certain pattern of rotation. Same reason caused changes to venomous claw. fact that abilities designed as DoTs were changed because people were using them as spammables doesn't mean there was no acces to spammables.0 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
If You're fighting in meele and You want to proc axe bleed that means You have acces to meele spammables already in weapon skill lines. Instead of asking for stamwhip You can ask for meele stone giant to get the same result but with less impact on the class. I could agree with poisoned status effect argument if stamwhip would be posion dmg based but even then I consider it a weak argument since it wouldn't be sustain of high magnitude same as flame whip is not giving that much sustain on a mag dk. So as I've said stamwhip brings nothing for a stam dk. Nothing very important atleast.
The problem that everyone forgets with a melee stone giant is that the other morph is ranged. That would mean three unique animations for one skill. These developers are nickel and diming every resource they put in this game. It's not going to happen.
I am uncomfortable with a class relying on weapons skills. Remember PI? Rending? Nerfs because it's strong for everyone but nerfs classes that rely exclusively on those skills alot harder.
Sorry but I consider these arguments as even weaker then previous ones. As for stone giant I was talking about asking ZoS to change ranged morph into meele one since it better fits the class. As for "resopurce saving argument" I mean come on...
PI and rending were never designed to be spammables. Both weapon skill lines those skills are coming from have sammables already and it was players choices to ignore that. It had nothing to do with class balance but more to do with metas that were present at that time. There was no harder impact on classes that "relied" on those abilities since them relying on those abilities was just alternative to not use spammables in ther rotation but instead turn abilities designed as DoTs into spammables and by that to bypass certain pattern of rotation. Same reason caused changes to venomous claw. fact that abilities designed as DoTs were changed because people were using them as spammables doesn't mean there was no acces to spammables.
Poison inject and rending dots. Not as spammables. The nerf from those hurt classes that had sub par spammable choices more than classes that did have a good spammable. That's I what meant.Edited by Onefrkncrzypope on August 15, 2020 6:21PM-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
-Gryphon Heart-
-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
If You're fighting in meele and You want to proc axe bleed that means You have acces to meele spammables already in weapon skill lines. Instead of asking for stamwhip You can ask for meele stone giant to get the same result but with less impact on the class. I could agree with poisoned status effect argument if stamwhip would be posion dmg based but even then I consider it a weak argument since it wouldn't be sustain of high magnitude same as flame whip is not giving that much sustain on a mag dk. So as I've said stamwhip brings nothing for a stam dk. Nothing very important atleast.
The problem that everyone forgets with a melee stone giant is that the other morph is ranged. That would mean three unique animations for one skill. These developers are nickel and diming every resource they put in this game. It's not going to happen.
I am uncomfortable with a class relying on weapons skills. Remember PI? Rending? Nerfs because it's strong for everyone but nerfs classes that rely exclusively on those skills alot harder.
Sorry but I consider these arguments as even weaker then previous ones. As for stone giant I was talking about asking ZoS to change ranged morph into meele one since it better fits the class. As for "resopurce saving argument" I mean come on...
PI and rending were never designed to be spammables. Both weapon skill lines those skills are coming from have sammables already and it was players choices to ignore that. It had nothing to do with class balance but more to do with metas that were present at that time. There was no harder impact on classes that "relied" on those abilities since them relying on those abilities was just alternative to not use spammables in ther rotation but instead turn abilities designed as DoTs into spammables and by that to bypass certain pattern of rotation. Same reason caused changes to venomous claw. fact that abilities designed as DoTs were changed because people were using them as spammables doesn't mean there was no acces to spammables.
Poison inject and rending dots. Not as spammables. The nerf from those hurt classes that had sub par spammable choices more than classes that did have a good spammable. That's I what meant.
Can You elaborate more on how PI and RS DoT parts have anything to do with acces to spammables through weapon skill lines ? Those nerfs didn't change a fact both DW and bow have spammable abilities. And when it comes to DoT nerfs it's not like only those 2 DoTs were nerfed. I trhink You went a little out of the topic with those examples.Edited by Juhasow on August 15, 2020 9:20PM0 -
Onefrkncrzypope✭✭✭✭✭
✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
If You're fighting in meele and You want to proc axe bleed that means You have acces to meele spammables already in weapon skill lines. Instead of asking for stamwhip You can ask for meele stone giant to get the same result but with less impact on the class. I could agree with poisoned status effect argument if stamwhip would be posion dmg based but even then I consider it a weak argument since it wouldn't be sustain of high magnitude same as flame whip is not giving that much sustain on a mag dk. So as I've said stamwhip brings nothing for a stam dk. Nothing very important atleast.
The problem that everyone forgets with a melee stone giant is that the other morph is ranged. That would mean three unique animations for one skill. These developers are nickel and diming every resource they put in this game. It's not going to happen.
I am uncomfortable with a class relying on weapons skills. Remember PI? Rending? Nerfs because it's strong for everyone but nerfs classes that rely exclusively on those skills alot harder.
Sorry but I consider these arguments as even weaker then previous ones. As for stone giant I was talking about asking ZoS to change ranged morph into meele one since it better fits the class. As for "resopurce saving argument" I mean come on...
PI and rending were never designed to be spammables. Both weapon skill lines those skills are coming from have sammables already and it was players choices to ignore that. It had nothing to do with class balance but more to do with metas that were present at that time. There was no harder impact on classes that "relied" on those abilities since them relying on those abilities was just alternative to not use spammables in ther rotation but instead turn abilities designed as DoTs into spammables and by that to bypass certain pattern of rotation. Same reason caused changes to venomous claw. fact that abilities designed as DoTs were changed because people were using them as spammables doesn't mean there was no acces to spammables.
Poison inject and rending dots. Not as spammables. The nerf from those hurt classes that had sub par spammable choices more than classes that did have a good spammable. That's I what meant.
Can You elaborate more on how PI and RS DoT parts have anything to do with acces to spammables through weapon skill lines ? Those nerfs didn't change a fact both DW and bow have spammable abilities. And when it comes to DoT nerfs it's not like only those 2 DoTs were nerfed. I trhink You went a little out of the topic with those examples.
I did before. Weapon skill lines get adjusted far more harshly than class skill lines. If a great spammable is there, every class would use it and then it will be nerfed. Classes with spammables go back to their original spammable and classes that lack are out of luck. B4B is a good example. It hurts some classes way harder than others.
Stone giant or bird isn't a great optionEdited by Onefrkncrzypope on August 15, 2020 11:08PM-Immortal Redeemer-
-Extinguisher of Flames-
-Gryphon Heart-
-Potato-
If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....1 -
Merciful17✭✭✭Meanwhile in PvP:
Super tanky stamDK's running around with noxious breath and their low cost, extremly huge burst damage and stun ult, using it to quickly secure kills then get back to their team thanks to their tankiness.
Super tanky Stamdens with amazing healing power and tankiness thanks to major + minor protection, minor thoughness and major mending can just spam their heals as soon as they get in trouble, making them almost immortal especially if you're fighting them alone. Then when they are healed up they'll switch to their front bar and start the subterranean assult + dizzying swing into executioner spam.
Yeah, no thanks. If these two were to get their damage buffed they would need their suvivability nerfed, since these two along stamcro are by the tankiest stamina dps classes in PvP and they already deal really good damage.6 -
bharathitman✭✭✭✭As long as DK tanks have a place in the group Stam DKs will always be an inferior DD class. One class cannot be good in every single role, however this is not to say that Stam DKs are absolute thrash in PvE, as others have pointed out Stam DKs still can do good dps, however with a DK tank they don't add anything extra to the group. Mag DKs on the other end are used for their engulfing flames and the ability to keep up Z'en easily0
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Tremors✭✭✭The argument is valid in some regard, however, it highly depends on group comp in an optimized group. Yes, they need a slight buff but a good player on a stam dk will do more dmg than an average player on a NB, this may not apply directly to an iron atro but in a raid, this will shine.
However! Yes, I think winters revenge could do with the ritual of retribution, and flames of oblivion treatment and standard could easily have the same soul trap treatment (they should probably do this with fob and ror too), or just change shifting morph to poison dmg. This alone will shift both classes a few k in dmg and it's done.Edited by Tremors on August 17, 2020 8:58PMPassionfruit GM - PC NA
Godslayer | Dawnbringer0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Merciful17 wrote: »Meanwhile in PvP:
Super tanky stamDK's running around with noxious breath and their low cost, extremly huge burst damage and stun ult, using it to quickly secure kills then get back to their team thanks to their tankiness.
Super tanky Stamdens with amazing healing power and tankiness thanks to major + minor protection, minor thoughness and major mending can just spam their heals as soon as they get in trouble, making them almost immortal especially if you're fighting them alone. Then when they are healed up they'll switch to their front bar and start the subterranean assult + dizzying swing into executioner spam.
Yeah, no thanks. If these two were to get their damage buffed they would need their suvivability nerfed, since these two along stamcro are by the tankiest stamina dps classes in PvP and they already deal really good damage.
@Merciful17 There are a plethora of ways to buff PVE damage with no real PVP impact, particularly for Stamden. Saying "Well they're strong in PVP" is a lazy excuse used by people who are biased against those classes for PVP reasons. It's a terrible argument.Edited by Skjaldbjorn on August 18, 2020 1:19AM7 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »Meanwhile in PvP:
Super tanky stamDK's running around with noxious breath and their low cost, extremly huge burst damage and stun ult, using it to quickly secure kills then get back to their team thanks to their tankiness.
Super tanky Stamdens with amazing healing power and tankiness thanks to major + minor protection, minor thoughness and major mending can just spam their heals as soon as they get in trouble, making them almost immortal especially if you're fighting them alone. Then when they are healed up they'll switch to their front bar and start the subterranean assult + dizzying swing into executioner spam.
Yeah, no thanks. If these two were to get their damage buffed they would need their suvivability nerfed, since these two along stamcro are by the tankiest stamina dps classes in PvP and they already deal really good damage.
@Merciful17 There are a plethora of ways to buff PVE damage with no real PVP impact, particularly for Stamden. Saying "Well they're strong in PVP" is a lazy excuse used by people who are biased against those classes for PVP reasons. It's a terrible argument.
2-3 more seconds on dots is all the class really needs to be honest. That’s 1 more cast of sub assault and a spamable every rotation plus adding the ultimate every other rotation instead of casting the ultimate in place of spamable. On DK dots get extended with class passives. That’s all warden is missing. More time.0 -
Everest_Lionheart✭✭✭✭✭Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »
If You're fighting in meele and You want to proc axe bleed that means You have acces to meele spammables already in weapon skill lines. Instead of asking for stamwhip You can ask for meele stone giant to get the same result but with less impact on the class. I could agree with poisoned status effect argument if stamwhip would be posion dmg based but even then I consider it a weak argument since it wouldn't be sustain of high magnitude same as flame whip is not giving that much sustain on a mag dk. So as I've said stamwhip brings nothing for a stam dk. Nothing very important atleast.
The problem that everyone forgets with a melee stone giant is that the other morph is ranged. That would mean three unique animations for one skill. These developers are nickel and diming every resource they put in this game. It's not going to happen.
I am uncomfortable with a class relying on weapons skills. Remember PI? Rending? Nerfs because it's strong for everyone but nerfs classes that rely exclusively on those skills alot harder.
Sorry but I consider these arguments as even weaker then previous ones. As for stone giant I was talking about asking ZoS to change ranged morph into meele one since it better fits the class. As for "resopurce saving argument" I mean come on...
PI and rending were never designed to be spammables. Both weapon skill lines those skills are coming from have sammables already and it was players choices to ignore that. It had nothing to do with class balance but more to do with metas that were present at that time. There was no harder impact on classes that "relied" on those abilities since them relying on those abilities was just alternative to not use spammables in ther rotation but instead turn abilities designed as DoTs into spammables and by that to bypass certain pattern of rotation. Same reason caused changes to venomous claw. fact that abilities designed as DoTs were changed because people were using them as spammables doesn't mean there was no acces to spammables.
Poison inject and rending dots. Not as spammables. The nerf from those hurt classes that had sub par spammable choices more than classes that did have a good spammable. That's I what meant.
Can You elaborate more on how PI and RS DoT parts have anything to do with acces to spammables through weapon skill lines ? Those nerfs didn't change a fact both DW and bow have spammable abilities. And when it comes to DoT nerfs it's not like only those 2 DoTs were nerfed. I trhink You went a little out of the topic with those examples.
I did before. Weapon skill lines get adjusted far more harshly than class skill lines. If a great spammable is there, every class would use it and then it will be nerfed. Classes with spammables go back to their original spammable and classes that lack are out of luck. B4B is a good example. It hurts some classes way harder than others.
Stone giant or bird isn't a great option
Cutting dive has a hidden mechanic but you have to be extra aware of your situation and be in the right part of your rotation. When it hits and off balance enemy it adds an additional bleed proc that stacks up to 7x. It’s not easy to use because you need to keep up your other dots too but if you can get 3-4 of them to land you dish out a lot of damage. Hard mechanic to control though on a rotation that’s already one of the most dynamic.0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Everest_Lionheart wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »Meanwhile in PvP:
Super tanky stamDK's running around with noxious breath and their low cost, extremly huge burst damage and stun ult, using it to quickly secure kills then get back to their team thanks to their tankiness.
Super tanky Stamdens with amazing healing power and tankiness thanks to major + minor protection, minor thoughness and major mending can just spam their heals as soon as they get in trouble, making them almost immortal especially if you're fighting them alone. Then when they are healed up they'll switch to their front bar and start the subterranean assult + dizzying swing into executioner spam.
Yeah, no thanks. If these two were to get their damage buffed they would need their suvivability nerfed, since these two along stamcro are by the tankiest stamina dps classes in PvP and they already deal really good damage.
@Merciful17 There are a plethora of ways to buff PVE damage with no real PVP impact, particularly for Stamden. Saying "Well they're strong in PVP" is a lazy excuse used by people who are biased against those classes for PVP reasons. It's a terrible argument.
2-3 more seconds on dots is all the class really needs to be honest. That’s 1 more cast of sub assault and a spamable every rotation plus adding the ultimate every other rotation instead of casting the ultimate in place of spamable. On DK dots get extended with class passives. That’s all warden is missing. More time.
@Everest_Lionheart uh...wut? Warden has a lot more issues than DoT duration or the delay on Sub. In fact, increasing the delay on Sub would actually probably be a negative. Increasing our DoT duration isn't going to make Stamden a viable DPS option in PVE. Things like this, however, would;
Birds: Unchain the bleed from Off-Balance. Terrible mechanic when it was *** out on the drawing board, and should have been scrapped before it ever saw live. Cap the stacks at ~3, make the Warden re-stack them after the duration ends or reduce the damage and let them be sustained as long as birds are hitting.
Gripping Shards: Give it the Ritual of Ret treatment. Stamden sustain is rough and a magicka based AoE would go a tremendous amount toward improving that. Would also let Stamden interact with the crit damage scaling passive they added, rather than depending on other players being in the group who can apply Chilled.
Bear: Up the damage, or have it apply a group-centric buff/debuff. Warden DPS desperately lack utility that can be reliably applied, or that can't be applied by a Warden support. Bear's damage is already probably too high, but when they nerfed it, it coincided with the buff to Advanced Species, which brought Warden in line. Reducing that damage scaling without adjusting the bear back to its original values was a HUGE nerf.
Stamden has some of the worst DPS class passives in the game to boot. The class really needs a pretty massive overhaul long-term. It's trying to be everything but when it comes to DPS, it mostly just falls flat on its face.1 -
Joxer61✭✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Stamden has some of the worst DPS class passives in the game to boot. The class really needs a pretty massive overhaul long-term. It's trying to be everything but when it comes to DPS, it mostly just falls flat on its face.
that right there is the answer/reply I was looking for in my post about Stamdens! I have always felt the passives were the weak link when looking at them compared to the other classes. Just didnt make sense that other classes are "ok" whereas Wardens, aka Stamdens, seem to be unwanted for the most part.0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I would love to see the bird freed from the wonky Off-Balance mechanics (something something Mean Girls quote about stop trying to make Off-Balance a thing, ZOS).
I might be the only one who sees things this way, but I think that thematically Wardens should be the bleed class (given their association with wild animals) and that a bonus to bleed damage should be included somewhere in the class kit.
Similarly, I would love to see the stamBear provide an Engulfing Flames-style group buff to bleeds from the maul attack (this would also prevent the Warden supports from using it and it wouldn't overly privilege any particular flavor of mainstream stamDPS).
As has been mentioned, stamDens really don't get anything at all (at least in PvE...) from the Winter's Embrace and Green Balance passives (or skills) and anything that they get from Animal Companions is shared equally by magDens (in this way it feels very similar to the stamSorc situation of a few patches ago). In other words, stamDens don't really have anything truly their own, their class skills are basically different colored versions of a magDen's.
Having Winter's Revenge scale with highest stats would be an easy way to bring some equity, but I'll be honest, I don't love it when it comes to the class identify of stamDen. Of course, if that's what is needed, then so be it.
Finally, I think that there is a massive amount of laziness in the Warden class design and that most of its strength (especially in PvP) is simply from the insane proliferation of named buffs that the class receives. If we're changing things with Wardens, can we please tear some of these lazy and overpowered free buffs off of some skills and replace them with more engaging active abilities? (And, before any asks, I have Wardens of all flavors and I PvP with all of them.)
I'm looking specifically at skills like the Falcon, Ice Fortress, and Lotus Flower, along with about half of the morphs from Winter's Revenge. How about stripping away Berserk or moving it to the summoned Bears (easier for PvE soloists, harder to run in PvP) and giving a better actual skill to the Falcon? How about giving damage morphs to Ice Fortress and others in Winter's Revenge? How about we move both Savagery and Prophecy to the base Lotus morph and use the resulting free morph for something entirely new? And how about dropping the heal and adding a Physical Damage AoE DoT to Corrupting Pollen so that stamDens can get their own unique skill without having to awkwardly bunk with magDens in Winter's Revenge?
Anyway, that was long and stretches beyond the mere stamDen. But I hope that there were some interesting ideas all the same.1 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »I'm looking specifically at skills like the Falcon, Ice Fortress, and Lotus Flower, along with about half of the morphs from Winter's Revenge. How about stripping away Berserk or moving it to the summoned Bears (easier for PvE soloists, harder to run in PvP) and giving a better actual skill to the Falcon? How about giving damage morphs to Ice Fortress and others in Winter's Revenge? How about we move both Savagery and Prophecy to the base Lotus morph and use the resulting free morph for something entirely new? And how about dropping the heal and adding a Physical Damage AoE DoT to Corrupting Pollen so that stamDens can get their own unique skill without having to awkwardly bunk with magDens in Winter's Revenge?
@YandereGirlfriend I don't agree with changing the Winter's Revenge variant to scale off highest offensive. That skill should stay exclusive to Magden. Gripping Shards, however, is the ideal situation. It's already a PB AoE around the caster, so it doesn't actually need any fundamental, functional changes to its design other than flip the damage coefficient/multiplier. Zos is heavily focused on resolving performance issues so minimalist changes are the name of the game. As far as I recall Corrupting Pollen is a ground-targeted AoE, something Zos has avoided giving Stam since the Caltrops nerf. That would require, at minimum, a targeting system change.1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭While you may well be right, it beggars belief that simply copy-pasting some DoT logic into Corrupting Pollen would be too tall of an order for the developers. An intern should be able to get that up and running in 30 minutes, maximum.1 -
ke.sardenb14_ESO✭✭✭Everest_Lionheart wrote: »Skjaldbjorn wrote: »Merciful17 wrote: »Meanwhile in PvP:
Super tanky stamDK's running around with noxious breath and their low cost, extremly huge burst damage and stun ult, using it to quickly secure kills then get back to their team thanks to their tankiness.
Super tanky Stamdens with amazing healing power and tankiness thanks to major + minor protection, minor thoughness and major mending can just spam their heals as soon as they get in trouble, making them almost immortal especially if you're fighting them alone. Then when they are healed up they'll switch to their front bar and start the subterranean assult + dizzying swing into executioner spam.
Yeah, no thanks. If these two were to get their damage buffed they would need their suvivability nerfed, since these two along stamcro are by the tankiest stamina dps classes in PvP and they already deal really good damage.
@Merciful17 There are a plethora of ways to buff PVE damage with no real PVP impact, particularly for Stamden. Saying "Well they're strong in PVP" is a lazy excuse used by people who are biased against those classes for PVP reasons. It's a terrible argument.
2-3 more seconds on dots is all the class really needs to be honest. That’s 1 more cast of sub assault and a spamable every rotation plus adding the ultimate every other rotation instead of casting the ultimate in place of spamable. On DK dots get extended with class passives. That’s all warden is missing. More time.
I agree, with adding more dots to warden. And the could also add some some kind of excute, or excute damage to the DK line.0 -
universal_wrath✭✭✭✭✭ThePianist wrote: »brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »Playboy_Shrek wrote: »stamblade is what needs buffs. its pretty bad unless your so good you could parse just as wel with stamdk or warden.
it literally gets nothing from siphoning tree. very little from the shadow tree and even worse in the main tree. a worse spammable. as its melee and it does the same damage, and less damage from grim focus morph
at least for dk and warden, both are classes that use "magical" skills. meanwhile nightblade is just using knives. and somehow magblade is better.
Stamblade and Stamplar without necro ult are parsing the highest, they are the only class that got buffed this patch ( PvE perspective, the damage taken reduct. in pvp versus crit damage is a nerf ) and they easily outparse magblade.
Stamblade also does use magical skills in their rotation, they have shade for example.
Stamblade needs buff to pve and no cp bgs. Grothdarr is already a cancer monster set in stamdk, stamcro and stamwardens. I’m speaking from a pve and pvp perspective.
ZOS needs to look at no cp bgs statistics from the pre-50 cp, all the way up to the top ranking MMR’s. They will see that nightblades are at the bottom of the barrel.
ZOS also needs to look at the statistics of Vet dungeon pugs, and who is getting always kicked. I guarantee you it’s nightblades and bow/bow players. This class doesn’t have any kind of aoe damage to deal with trash mobs, except arrow barrage, caltrops. Again, look at this from a bigger picture ZOS. Not just catering to the elitists.
How can a NB weave 5 LA’s to proc relentless focus against a warden running 2 proc sets, and hits Northen storm? Then the same warden proceeds to 1vx the other enemy team?
The relentless focus buff is not a big deal. What should have been done, is give NB’s the pre 7th legion dark cloak. Our class needs a purge of some kind.
The only place Our Class is excelling at is at imperial city. Yes I love to gank people and steal their hard earned tel var. If they’re on my hit list then: “Remember me? You kicked me from Vet Bloodforge, I’ll take that 20k Tel var as compensation, thanks”.
But anyway. Stamden doesn’t need a buff.
Most of what you said is not true. Stamblade is one of the best classes in BG and it will be even better next patch the buff to most proc sets. stam class rarely use grathar in PvP, unless they build into dot, much like how stamsorc crutch on draugrkin in PvP even though it is a magicka set.
In dungeons, you say stamblade does not have AOE skill in its toolkit to deal with trash beside arrow barrag and caltrap. I use bow/bow on my stamsorc, I don't use hurricane, so basically I'm in the same spot as stamnightblade, except that I use acid spray, arrow barrage, caltrap, and spliting soul trap to deal with mobs. You simply are not using enough skills. Also, nobody kick you because you are a nightblade bow/bow build, they probably kick you becuase you either spam light attack/poison injection to proc relentless which I have seen most bow/bow nightblade do, or you simply are not doing enough damage to help the group and the othe dd have to carry you or you spend 10mins fighting a boss. Check you gear/skills and master your rotation. As long as you do 35-40% of group damage, nobody will say anything to you even if you just light attack.
In PvP, everyone of all classes seem to have trouble fightung stamden with proc sets, stamblade is no exception. What you can do, is either join the meta, or build as much damage as possible and play attrition game with this type of people, do more damage to off set their heals and learn when to withdraw when warden go offensive.
As for the relentless buff, I'm not sure why it is not a big deal for you, because it will help nightblades in general be better dps in PvE next patch and better gankers in PvP. As of dark cloak, it just need its healing to be reverted back to 3 secs insead of spreading over 6 secs.a shadow disguise is the best purge in the game from PvP perspective.
Edited by universal_wrath on August 19, 2020 3:32PM1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Winstonshead wrote: »
sounds goodoscarovegren wrote: »For warden they could make winters revenge scale of the highest offensive stat. That way they will receive a very strong AoE DoT and the chilled crit bonus. That would be a good improvement
can magden then get a unique and powerful damage skill to differentiate the 2 subclasses? because frankly doing that ruins what remains of the difference between them.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX1 -
Celestro✭✭✭oscarovegren wrote: »For warden they could make winters revenge scale of the highest offensive stat. That way they will receive a very strong AoE DoT and the chilled crit bonus. That would be a good improvement
While I like the idea as far as allowing stam specs access to certain mag specific skills, which is already present in some skills, currently, only one skill for each class has the feature of scaling off the highest offensive stat, being DK - Inferno, Warden - Nature's Grasp, Sorc - Streak morph, NB - Summon Shade, Templar - Cleansing Ritual and Necro - Shocking Siphon.
I dont know the specific line of thought surrounding these but I imagine giving Winter's Revenge the scaling off highest stat benefit would cause their current Nature's Grasp to have that removed or open the doors for more mag class skills to possess that feature. I dont mind the latter honestly but I suppose I could see some resistance happening on that front.0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Winstonshead wrote: »
sounds goodoscarovegren wrote: »For warden they could make winters revenge scale of the highest offensive stat. That way they will receive a very strong AoE DoT and the chilled crit bonus. That would be a good improvement
can magden then get a unique and powerful damage skill to differentiate the 2 subclasses? because frankly doing that ruins what remains of the difference between them.
As I have posted repeatedly and even submitted to multiple class reps, instead of changing Winter's Revenge, change Gripping Shards. It allows Magdens to retain the identity of WR, including being a targeted ground-based AoE, and giving Stamden love at the same time. You can't make the argument that "Stam can't have an ice spell" unless you're comfortable making Animals a Stam-exclusive concept, including the bear. That is mental gymnastics.0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Even if it might take modestly more work, I still think that Corrupting Pollen is the better candidate to become the stamDen signature AoE DoT.
It's already an offensive AoE and it keeps nicely with the nature theme of stamDens without dipping into the thematic territory of the magDen.
Take out the healing and keep the Major Defile (to retain its use in PvP) while adding standard AoE DoT damage.0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Even if it might take modestly more work, I still think that Corrupting Pollen is the better candidate to become the stamDen signature AoE DoT.
It's already an offensive AoE and it keeps nicely with the nature theme of stamDens without dipping into the thematic territory of the magDen.
Take out the healing and keep the Major Defile (to retain its use in PvP) while adding standard AoE DoT damage.
I still have genuinely no idea what people are talking about when they say "dipping into thematic territory". Does that mean Stam DKs should lose Flames of Oblivion? Should Magdens lose the bear? Since, y'know, animals are Stamden's "thematic place", apparently. Should Stam Sorcs lose the Clannfear? I'm really not seeing this argument. Thematics are class-based, not build-based. Class thematics are shared all the time in ESO.Edited by Skjaldbjorn on August 24, 2020 8:35PM0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I also have yet to see anyone address the issue of there being literally zero DPS passives in the tree for Pollen. So basically, give Stamdens a second rate version of Ritual with zero DPS passives to benefit it so Magden can be "frost thematic". Sounds about right. Stamden consistently gets shorted patch after patch after patch and it's absolutely exhausting. Our Magden "brothers and sisters" aren't helping, either.1 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Honestly, yes.
StamDKs ought have their own distinctive ability to replace FoB just as they ought to have a Poison Damage morph of Standard. You could easily reach back to Daggerfall and give them Acidic Field as an alternative.
Similarly, give me an Ice Wraith over Brother Bear all day, every day for a magDen. The Clannfear is really more of the tanking morph for Sorcerers so that's no real bother either. Another Sorcerer skill, Streak, is probably a better comparison, but nobody is using that for damage so leaving that to Magicka-only scaling would also be fine.
IMO, having "scales to highest stats" abilities is a developer cop-out because they couldn't come up with (or have time to implement) something better as an alternative class skill. Things like Soul Trap scaling with Stamina doesn't even make sense in Elder Scrolls lore and was only implemented because players whined at ZOS and that was the least-effort solution to the problem.
It's also not about "taking away" an ability per se, it's about recognizing that we are building characters in an RPG setting and that characters (unless they are hybrids) cannot be equally good at doing all things. Max resources scaling is a meta-game (in the true sense of "things outside of the game [e.g. player demands, lack of development resources] influencing what is inside of the game") exercise that better initial planning for the classes and combat system and/or more present-day developer resources could have avoided.
Even if you are a Stamina character you can still make use of Magicka skills (and vice versa) if they provide enough utility to make it worth your while (Streak comes immediately to mind even if it did no damage at all). We see this most commonly in PvP where there are more considerations at play than simply dealing damage.
Ultimately, however, it all boils down to the fact that this is an RPG and that stats such as Magicka and Stamina are abstractions meant to symbolize what aspect of your character you are using when you perform a certain action. If a skill costs Magicka, it is because you are using a spell of some sort and ought to scale off of those stats, whereas Stamina implies a Physical action and vice versa. (There are, of course, awkward kludge skills like Bound Daggers that blur these lines, but that is basically par excellence of how fan pressure precipitated a strange and unsatisfying "solution" from ZOS.)
StamDens aren't Cryomancers because fundamentally Frost is a Magic damage type and in the uninspired attribute system of ESO that means it isn't there for Stamina characters to use (if they want to be efficient, at least). It is a tragedy that high-performance hybrids are not really possible but it is what it is (until, hopefully, it isn't). Making Gripping Shards a Max Stats skill would be another fan-service compromise that makes no sense within either the lore or the very combat system that ZOS designs and maintains. In short, it would be an ostentatious band-aid when they can and should do better to improve the stamDen sub-class.
Now, I am open-minded and do genuinely want to help stamDens (indeed, it wasn't so long ago that magDens were sharing the basement with them). While I personally believe that Corrupting Pollen is the better solution, if changing Gripping Shards is what it takes to help the class, then, as I've said, so be it.
But, even within that framework, it could still be improved from a thematic perspective. Make the skill do Bleed Damage (you are, after all, impaling enemies with spears of jagged ice). Then, as I've said before, give the Savage Beast passive a ~10-15% buff to all sources of Bleed Damage. Give Brother Bear a Bleed-on-maul as well and really go all-in on the Beastmaster theme.1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Winstonshead wrote: »
sounds goodoscarovegren wrote: »For warden they could make winters revenge scale of the highest offensive stat. That way they will receive a very strong AoE DoT and the chilled crit bonus. That would be a good improvement
can magden then get a unique and powerful damage skill to differentiate the 2 subclasses? because frankly doing that ruins what remains of the difference between them.
As I have posted repeatedly and even submitted to multiple class reps, instead of changing Winter's Revenge, change Gripping Shards. It allows Magdens to retain the identity of WR, including being a targeted ground-based AoE, and giving Stamden love at the same time. You can't make the argument that "Stam can't have an ice spell" unless you're comfortable making Animals a Stam-exclusive concept, including the bear. That is mental gymnastics.
what is the difference between the 2 skills apart from scaling at that point? same theme. I've already lightened up on the point and now just want a unique frost damage skill that only magden uses. you can have gripping shards if you want. i'm honestly getting disillusioned with the game because of the PvP aoe cooldown ***.PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher for ESO-U. Frost Warden PvE Build Article: https://eso-u.com/articles/nightingales_warden_dps_guide__frost_knight. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX0