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Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »Vivec. "Love me or I'll obliterate you all with Bar Dau".
I see Vivec as an ambiguous character (more for what happened to Nerevar Indoril), but this is simply not true. He never threatens anyone with Baar Dau. Same goes for this:RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »A self-confessed repeat mass sex offender based solely on the fact that he always uses magical stealth or mind control to negate the principle of consent.
When exactly does he sexually harass people?! And then even "masses". Were you really playing TES?RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »He uses "Blessing Stones" to control the minds of people living in Vivec City cantons.
He uses them during construction work of the cantons. They have a calming and motivating effect on the workers. If that is "mind control", then probably switching on a radio at work and giving positive, friendly feedback to your workers would be as well.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »Vivec. "Love me or I'll obliterate you all with Bar Dau".
I see Vivec as an ambiguous character (more for what happened to Nerevar Indoril), but this is simply not true. He never threatens anyone with Baar Dau
'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.'
Vivec is very difficult character especially because of the events in the Red Mountain. When Tribunal became gods, they became gods from the beginning. It is possible to call this a dragon break, since the past was changed. The past where Tribunal were mortal elves was removed, the past where Tribunal were gods was created. Vivec in the current reality didn't betray Nerevar. Vivec in the reality that ceased to exist betrayed Nerevar. So is Vivec guilty or not?I see Vivec as an ambiguous character (more for what happened to Nerevar Indoril)The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0 -
Nairinhe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »Vivec. "Love me or I'll obliterate you all with Bar Dau".
I see Vivec as an ambiguous character (more for what happened to Nerevar Indoril), but this is simply not true. He never threatens anyone with Baar Dau
'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.'
Vivec is very difficult character especially because of the events in the Red Mountain. When Tribunal became gods, they became gods from the beginning. It is possible to call this a dragon break, since the past was changed. The past where Tribunal were mortal elves was removed, the past where Tribunal were gods was created. Vivec in the current reality didn't betray Nerevar. Vivec in the reality that ceased to exist betrayed Nerevar. So is Vivec guilty or not?I see Vivec as an ambiguous character (more for what happened to Nerevar Indoril)
I'd say even Vivec's past past is still Vivec's past. Guilty!0 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ectheliontnacil wrote: »
I think you meant to say green allianceEdited by Dark_Lord_Kuro on September 2, 2020 3:57PM0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
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I wouldn't take the Lessons too literally. Otherwise you had to accept Vivec being a hermaphrodite who was supposed to be born from an egg in an underwater dreugh coral castle, if not his formerly elven mother had been cut apart by the Dwemer (fortunately Vivec could talk to her soothingly from inside of her as a fetus, so she fell asleep before dying) and then replaced by a Dwemer robot. I see the Sermons as symbolic. In this case Vivec trying to merge mer, beast and machine (or nature and technology) into his person, as well as both sexes. As Lord Seht mentioned, Vivec is a poet. A storyteller. He invents tales to make himself seem mythical and isolated from normal mer. The truth is a different story.When Tribunal became gods, they became gods from the beginning. It is possible to call this a dragon break, since the past was changed. The past where Tribunal were mortal elves was removed, the past where Tribunal were gods was created. Vivec in the current reality didn't betray Nerevar. Vivec in the reality that ceased to exist betrayed Nerevar.
Was it really, or is it another of Vehks tales? If the Three were real Gods (pardon my blasphemy), they couldn't be harmed anymore and they could not loose their powers. Also, they wouldn't have to renew their "Godhood" at Red Mountain every year.
Edited by Syldras on September 2, 2020 4:16PM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
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I wouldn't take the Lessons too literally. Otherwise you had to accept Vivec being a hermaphrodite who was supposed to be born from an egg in an underwater dreugh coral castle, if not his formerly elven mother had been cut apart by the Dwemer (fortunately Vivec could talk to her soothingly from inside of her as a fetus, so she fell asleep before dying) and then replaced by a Dwemer robot. I see the Sermons as symbolic. In this case Vivec trying to merge mer, beast and machine (or nature and technology) into his person, as well as both sexes. As Lord Seht mentioned, Vivec is a poet. A storyteller. He invents tales to make himself seem mythical and isolated from normal mer. The truth is a different story.
You can take Lessons quite literally, because they speak of gods. What would be the point to give the followers the false story, when most of them can simply remember the truth (some of them are still living in 2e or 3e)? What would be the point to tell that Nerevar was a general, when a huge number of dunmers knew him as king? Such an attempt would destroy the religion. No, sermons likely tell the new truth, and the old truth is either removed from the memory of people or coexists in the memory with the new truth.
The thing is Vivec (and Tribunal) didn't need Heart of Lorkhan to remain god. Tribunal need it to remain powerful. Vivec in the end of the 3rd era has no access to the Heart, yet he is god. As a god he can use the power of faith of his followers to maintain the Ghost Fence and to keep Baar Dau (actually, that is the proof that the more followers a god has, the more powerful he is, at least for gods who are not daedra lords or 8 aedra/planets, and that is one of the reasons why Thalmor of the 4th era is destroying faith in Talos, who is not a daedra lord and not a planet/aedra).When Tribunal became gods, they became gods from the beginning. It is possible to call this a dragon break, since the past was changed. The past where Tribunal were mortal elves was removed, the past where Tribunal were gods was created. Vivec in the current reality didn't betray Nerevar. Vivec in the reality that ceased to exist betrayed Nerevar.
Was it really, or is it another of Vehks tales? If the Three were real Gods (pardon my blasphemy), they couldn't be harmed anymore and they could not loose their powers. Also, they wouldn't have to renew their "Godhood" at Red Mountain every year.
Edit: P.S. The Divines (as any aedra) can be killed, so "real gods can't be harmed" is not true in the ES universe.
Edited by Olauron on September 2, 2020 4:52PMThe Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0 -
Saucy_Jack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If the Three were real Gods (pardon my blasphemy), they couldn't be harmed anymore and they could not loose their powers.
ALL HAIL SNUGGLORR THE MAGNIFICENT, KING OF THE RNG AND NIRN'S ONE TRUE GOD! Also, become a Scrub-scriber! SJ Scrubs: Playing games badly to make you feel better about yourself.1 -
SantieClaws✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pacrooti.
We all know this to be true yes.
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Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You can take Lessons quite literally, because they speak of gods.
If I declare myself a God now and have my best friend write a Holy Book about me - Praise Syldras, Holy Lord And Ruler Of Mankind, The Five Parallel Dimensions And The Nine Circles Of The Underworld! - his bemusing writings would be true, because they speak of a God? Apotheosis never was easier!What would be the point to give the followers the false story, when most of them can simply remember the truth (some of them are still living in 2e or 3e)?
The common people don't know much about the Tribunal's past.What would be the point to tell that Nerevar was a general, when a huge number of dunmers knew him as king?
He was both. It's not uncommon for a ruler to also be a high ranked military leader.The thing is Vivec (and Tribunal) didn't need Heart of Lorkhan to remain god. Tribunal need it to remain powerful. Vivec in the end of the 3rd era has no access to the Heart, yet he is god. As a god he can use the power of faith of his followers to maintain the Ghost Fence and to keep Baar Dau
That's what he's saying to calm his followers to prevent a panic outbreak. Actually, he was slowly fading away without the power of the Heart.actually, that is the proof that the more followers a god has, the more powerful he is, at least for gods who are not daedra lords or 8 aedra/planets, and that is one of the reasons why Thalmor of the 4th era is destroying faith in Talos, who is not a daedra lord and not a planet/aedra
Talos is a pitiful mortal and him being a God an unfortunate misbelief of men. Prove the opposite
The Divines (as any aedra) can be killed, so "real gods can't be harmed" is not true in the ES universe.
They can, but not by normal matters.
Edited by Syldras on September 2, 2020 5:54PM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire1 -
RaddlemanNumber7✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »Vivec. "Love me or I'll obliterate you all with Bar Dau".
I see Vivec as an ambiguous character (more for what happened to Nerevar Indoril), but this is simply not true. He never threatens anyone with Baar Dau. Same goes for this:RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »A self-confessed repeat mass sex offender based solely on the fact that he always uses magical stealth or mind control to negate the principle of consent.
When exactly does he sexually harass people?! And then even "masses". Were you really playing TES?RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »He uses "Blessing Stones" to control the minds of people living in Vivec City cantons.
He uses them during construction work of the cantons. They have a calming and motivating effect on the workers. If that is "mind control", then probably switching on a radio at work and giving positive, friendly feedback to your workers would be as well.
Bar Dau:
From Sermon 33
The citizenry of Vivec screamed as they saw a shooting star come down out of the sky hole like a toll-road of hell. But Vivec merely raised his hand and froze Lie Rock just above the city and then he pierced the monster with Muatra (The practice of piercing the Second Aperture is now forbidden.) When Nerevar returned, he saw the frozen comet above his lord's city. He asked whether or not Vivec wanted it removed. 'I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction.' Nerevar said, 'Love is under your will only.'
Vivec's Sexual Violence
Vivec's numerous boasts about his use if sexual violence, like the one in the excerpt above, are also contained in the Sermons. I'm not going to explain or translate them into plain English. It's too distasteful, and I'm sure the Mods wouldn't really want that particular writer's morbid sex fantasies repeated on the forums.
About the only person mentioned in the Sermons who Vivec does not admit to sexually assaulting is Nerevar. Vivec merely confesses to the "foul murder" of the Hortator.
Blessing Stones:
In the quest Divine Disaster the Vestige goes to Overseer Shiralas to get a Blessing Stone to stop Bar Dau from falling. Dialogue says:
Lord Vivec needs to borrow the Blessing Stone again.
"That's impossible. We installed the Blessing Stone back in its canton and finished construction on that section a short time ago. Wait a moment-does this have something to do with chunks of rock raining down on the city?"
Let's just say it's vital that I get a Blessing Stone for Lord Vivec.
"I suppose you're in luck, then. We happen to have another Blessing Stone. It's at the third canton. Here. This key will open the door to that portion of the construction site. Just watch out for looters-and the rocks falling out of the sky."
Bold dialogue confirms the Blessing Stones are walled-up in the contons during construction, no doubt to ensure the inhabitants also feel the "love and protection" of Vivec.
Further proof of Vivec's mind control of the inhabitants of Vivec City is provided in a conversation between two women on St Delyn Canton during the end scene of the main questline. It shows one of the women has already forgotten the preceding emergency and the other is in the process of forgetting it.PC EU0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »Vivec's numerous boasts about his use if sexual violence, like the one in the excerpt above, are also contained in the Sermons.
As I said, I see the Lessons as myths. Myths have a metaphorical, symbolic meaning. For some rl example, Plato wrote about the creation of men and women in "Symposium", that they came to existance when double-sexed "spherical people" were split in half. I hope you don't insist that this has to be taken literally. Same goes for Vivec's lessons: Vehk was not literally getting pregnant from Molag Bal, neither did he pierce and murder people with a cut off Daedric *** used as a spear.RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »About the only person mentioned in the Sermons who Vivec does not admit to sexually assaulting is Nerevar.
So you consider this a sexual assault because you believe this weapon to be a Daedric ***?
(Okay, I see the medical term is also censored, but I think it's obvious what I'm about).
RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »Bold dialogue confirms the Blessing Stones are walled-up in the contons during construction, no doubt to ensure the inhabitants also feel the "love and protection" of Vivec.
Something giving off a slight feeling of comfort and security equals mind control and violates your consent? Have you ever tried sueing a department store for their elevator music?RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »Further proof of Vivec's mind control of the inhabitants of Vivec City is provided in a conversation between two women on St Delyn Canton during the end scene of the main questline. It shows one of the women has already forgotten the preceding emergency and the other is in the process of forgetting it.
Do you have names? Normally I'd say it's just because some NPCs' dialogues never change, no matter what happens.
Edited by Syldras on September 2, 2020 6:29PM@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
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Except you are not proving your claims with deeds. Tribunal proved that they are gods and they are gods even for the most powerful dunmer mages.
If I declare myself a God now and have my best friend write a Holy Book about me - Praise Syldras, Holy Lord And Ruler Of Mankind, The Five Parallel Dimensions And The Nine Circles Of The Underworld! - his bemusing writings would be true, because they speak of a God? Apotheosis never was easier!You can take Lessons quite literally, because they speak of gods.
There were not only common people. Even for the common people it is not hard to understand the difference between the "Nerevar and his councilors" and "gods and their general".
He was not a king in Lessons. He is the one who obeys in Lessons, not the other way around. Do you think that the leaders of Great Houses didn't know who was in charge?
There is no sense in saying "everything is a lie, I don't believe a single word". There is nothing to discuss at this point, as anybody can claim anything a lie.The thing is Vivec (and Tribunal) didn't need Heart of Lorkhan to remain god. Tribunal need it to remain powerful. Vivec in the end of the 3rd era has no access to the Heart, yet he is god. As a god he can use the power of faith of his followers to maintain the Ghost Fence and to keep Baar Dau
That's what he's saying to calm his followers to prevent a panic outbreak. Actually, he was slowly fading away without the power of the Heart.
Vivec said this not to his followers. His followers didn't even know about the Heart. He said it to Nerevarin, who knew about the Heart and the tools. Do you really think that Vivec would allow freeing the Heart and living under the Baar Dau if he knew he would lose all power? So he would kill himself and destroy all the citizens of his own city, when he had the time to prevent everything? No, it is not in his character. If he said that the city is safe while he has followers even without the Heart at all, then it is true.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0
