Trial finder

BigBragg

No

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

redlink1979 wrote: »

No. If you need to find a group to run a trial, go to Craglorn.

A flushed out group finder

This is the issue right here. There have been multiple iterations of the grouping tool. It has been rebuilt from the ground up. In both dungeons and dramatically more so for BGs, the system fails on even the most basic levels. It's great that FFXIV does it well, I wish the team at ZOS had solved whatever issues they struggle with over the years of trying to. But the reality is, they have not.

scottii

No! WOW did this during patch 3 of cata and it made the game so easy, you could get all the end game content in about 2 days. No to mention, people would just stand there and do absolutely nothing until gear drops game.

This resulted in a significant loss in player population for many months.

LioraValkyrie

Yes

What's the difference between a normal trial finder and spamming zone chat? It's just randoms hunting for transmute stones and gear in easy content. Some people would rather queue up and do something else until it pops, rather than watching zone chat - sounds good. You would still be able to kick a fake role just like in dungeons.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Yes

BigBragg wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

redlink1979 wrote: »

No. If you need to find a group to run a trial, go to Craglorn.

A flushed out group finder

This is the issue right here. There have been multiple iterations of the grouping tool. It has been rebuilt from the ground up. In both dungeons and dramatically more so for BGs, the system fails on even the most basic levels. It's great that FFXIV does it well, I wish the team at ZOS had solved whatever issues they struggle with over the years of trying to. But the reality is, they have not.

It has not undergone a complete overhaul. I'm not talking about simplying checking a box and pressing queue. I'm talking about an actual listing of groups that you can see in real time. Level requirements, clear requirements, and custom class requirements for hardcore players.

We all know why the group finder sucks. It's a money issue.

BigBragg

No

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

redlink1979 wrote: »

No. If you need to find a group to run a trial, go to Craglorn.

A flushed out group finder

This is the issue right here. There have been multiple iterations of the grouping tool. It has been rebuilt from the ground up. In both dungeons and dramatically more so for BGs, the system fails on even the most basic levels. It's great that FFXIV does it well, I wish the team at ZOS had solved whatever issues they struggle with over the years of trying to. But the reality is, they have not.

It has not undergone a complete overhaul. I'm not talking about simplying checking a box and pressing queue. I'm talking about an actual listing of groups that you can see in real time. Level requirements, clear requirements, and custom class requirements for hardcore players.

We all know why the group finder sucks. It's a money issue.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

It’s time for the November update to our performance improvements roadmap. Before giving the update, we wanted to shed some more light on the recent issues related to the new Activity Finder so that you all have a better understanding of why these issues are happening. Note that completely replacing the old Activity Finder was something we had to do. It was not able to be easily updated and could not handle the load we see on the live servers.

Before launching the new Activity Finder, the team tried to put the system to as much internal load testing as possible by using automated bots. Even though bots cannot truly simulate player behavior, they are a good tool for identifying basic load problems, and we were able to get significantly more testing bots into the system than players on the live servers and still have the system run smoothly. This gave us confidence to push it to PTS for Update 24. On PTS, new problems were discovered and fixed, but we never saw player concurrencies on PTS as compared to Live. Once the system hit Live, well, we all know that what happened wasn’t good.

The core issue we’ve been having with the new Activity Finder is that it shares many of the same system resources as the rest of the game. This means that when the Activity Finder gets overloaded, everything else on the server starts to bog down – which is why players experience long loading times, timeouts/disconnects, and sluggish server response at these times. It’s been a challenge for us to identify and fix these issues as each time we go through a cycle of overload, we fix that particular problem, but then discover a new one as new concurrency levels are hit. It is very important to note that almost all of the server issues encountered over the last month were caused by the Activity Finder – it is not a hardware issue or a more widespread problem. The reason why this seems to happen the most on the PC EU server is because it’s our most populated server where people generally all play during the same core hours.

So, when the most recent Undaunted event started, we started to see server performance issues, even though we had already found and fixed Activity Finder problems during the Witches Festival event. We found and fixed issue after issue during the Undaunted event, but new ones kept cropping up. So we postponed the event and are taking our time now to ensure that we resolve this problem once and for all. We are testing a new build internally, and we fully expect to have this issue resolved.

I, along with everyone else, appreciate the irony of stating just last year that we wouldn’t have another in-game event focused on the Activity Finder until we were “100% sure” it would work. With the new Activity Finder, we were a lot more confident than with the old one. Obviously, we were wrong.

Even though it is a small consolation, I do want to make sure everyone understands that the issues you have been seeing are caused by one system going haywire and not a deep systemic or hardware problem. This Activity Finder issue has been plaguing us for over a year now and it is long past time that we fix it.

We all appreciate everyone’s patience on this, and hopefully we are approaching the end of this process. We haven’t exactly covered ourselves in glory--we know it, and we are doing everything we can to make it better.

Rikkadir

Been playing this game since launch and I don't even know what a trial is.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Yes

BigBragg wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

BigBragg wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

redlink1979 wrote: »

No. If you need to find a group to run a trial, go to Craglorn.

A flushed out group finder

This is the issue right here. There have been multiple iterations of the grouping tool. It has been rebuilt from the ground up. In both dungeons and dramatically more so for BGs, the system fails on even the most basic levels. It's great that FFXIV does it well, I wish the team at ZOS had solved whatever issues they struggle with over the years of trying to. But the reality is, they have not.

It has not undergone a complete overhaul. I'm not talking about simplying checking a box and pressing queue. I'm talking about an actual listing of groups that you can see in real time. Level requirements, clear requirements, and custom class requirements for hardcore players.

We all know why the group finder sucks. It's a money issue.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

It’s time for the November update to our performance improvements roadmap. Before giving the update, we wanted to shed some more light on the recent issues related to the new Activity Finder so that you all have a better understanding of why these issues are happening. Note that completely replacing the old Activity Finder was something we had to do. It was not able to be easily updated and could not handle the load we see on the live servers.

Before launching the new Activity Finder, the team tried to put the system to as much internal load testing as possible by using automated bots. Even though bots cannot truly simulate player behavior, they are a good tool for identifying basic load problems, and we were able to get significantly more testing bots into the system than players on the live servers and still have the system run smoothly. This gave us confidence to push it to PTS for Update 24. On PTS, new problems were discovered and fixed, but we never saw player concurrencies on PTS as compared to Live. Once the system hit Live, well, we all know that what happened wasn’t good.

The core issue we’ve been having with the new Activity Finder is that it shares many of the same system resources as the rest of the game. This means that when the Activity Finder gets overloaded, everything else on the server starts to bog down – which is why players experience long loading times, timeouts/disconnects, and sluggish server response at these times. It’s been a challenge for us to identify and fix these issues as each time we go through a cycle of overload, we fix that particular problem, but then discover a new one as new concurrency levels are hit. It is very important to note that almost all of the server issues encountered over the last month were caused by the Activity Finder – it is not a hardware issue or a more widespread problem. The reason why this seems to happen the most on the PC EU server is because it’s our most populated server where people generally all play during the same core hours.

So, when the most recent Undaunted event started, we started to see server performance issues, even though we had already found and fixed Activity Finder problems during the Witches Festival event. We found and fixed issue after issue during the Undaunted event, but new ones kept cropping up. So we postponed the event and are taking our time now to ensure that we resolve this problem once and for all. We are testing a new build internally, and we fully expect to have this issue resolved.

I, along with everyone else, appreciate the irony of stating just last year that we wouldn’t have another in-game event focused on the Activity Finder until we were “100% sure” it would work. With the new Activity Finder, we were a lot more confident than with the old one. Obviously, we were wrong.

Even though it is a small consolation, I do want to make sure everyone understands that the issues you have been seeing are caused by one system going haywire and not a deep systemic or hardware problem. This Activity Finder issue has been plaguing us for over a year now and it is long past time that we fix it.

We all appreciate everyone’s patience on this, and hopefully we are approaching the end of this process. We haven’t exactly covered ourselves in glory--we know it, and we are doing everything we can to make it better.

And that's still not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about changing the way people actually search for groups, which also includes completing implementing a new system to find groups and completely changing the UI. So the quote you posted is completely irrelevant.

Fixing the group finder because it was a broken mess doesnt equate to a new group finder. It just means it's doing the job it was supposed to do.

LadyNalcarya

No

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Maybe for normals, but even then I can see things like nHOF going horribly wrong due to lack of dps and communication and fake tanks/healers.

In other games I've done 8, 10, and 25 person random raids/trials and usually the completion rate is above 75%. Mics are a great tool to help newer players understand the mechanics. Also as a former guild leader in other games a trial finder can be used just like a dungeon finder to help recruit if most of the players in the run are from the same guild.

This feature should be added.

Well, the problem with eso group finder that there's way too many people who just dont want to learn mechanics or communicate. If the game was a bit better at explaining things like dps rotations and dungeon roles, then maybe it would be easier.

Tornaad

Other

I'm not going to say no, but before I would be willing to say yes, I would like the see a 4 person group finder that is able to quickly and reliably find groups.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Yes

Rikkadir wrote: »

Been playing this game since launch and I don't even know what a trial is.

A big dungeon for 12 people. In normal mode is fun and easy, in veteran mode especially the DLC trials are for those who want to literally torture themselves mentally.

Some of the time is also full of headless chickens running around pulling enemies blaming their quick deaths to the tank or healer who was 400 metres behind opening a chest.

There we would find also self centered damage dealers ignoring the dead around them, hopping around aimlessly demanding from the last remaining healer, who is sweating to keep the tank alive, to take a long break and resurrect their sorry bottoms.

Finally you will find the category of those who will pest you if you got a drop that they want to the point of accusing and cursing you if you refuse to do so. Some might even start throwing the toys out of the pram, demanding your booting from the trial half way. And yes, in my 6 years in this game haven't seen a tank or a healer doing so. Always Damage Dealers.

richo262

Yes

Yes

However.

It would be this:
1) Normal only
2) 200CP minimum (gear is junk under 160 anyway)
3) Higher CP unlocks harder trials. 200 = Crag. 250 = CR/AS/KA/SS. 300 = MOL. 350 = HOF.
4) Trials that require a split must force the group to split.

1 - The crags are vet pug-able. Most trials are not. Vet would be a nightmare.
2 - I'm sure many players under 200CP can do it on normal, it is just a benchmark.
3 - Further unlocks as you level. Ideally has a tutorial video with the unlock.
4 - Trials like Hel Ra Cit will require the group to split into two groups and if this is messed up and you don't end up with a tank downstairs things can get messy. When the trial starts you are notified what group you are in. Group 1 includes 1 tank, 1 heal, 4 dps and they can only go downstairs. Group 2 is invisi-walled from entering downstairs. If somebody fails to get to their right spot they get ported to the right location similar to how new dungeons and trials operate when boss fights start.

Also nMOL regarding the two tanks. Group 1 - 1 tank 4 dps 1 heal is ported to other side of room. Group 2 - 1 tank 4 dps 1 heal remains at entrance.

People concerned about fake tanks. You'll probably only get a few that que as tank by accident or are really new. A trial finder will hoover up many DPS players. Especially if the daily XP reward was Random Dungeon OR Trial. You'll find fake tanks that fake tank dungeons will probably just DPS a random trial instead clearing up the backlog in the Dungeon que.

Don't forget, people can still form groups in craglorn, it just means that if you are waiting in craglorn for 3 dps and cannot find them, you simply que and it'll scoop them up from the finder. You'll probably find most trial groups will still be preformed for the most part.

Zatox

Yes

Yes.
I want to log in and play the game. Not spending my time for manual search of the group.

redgreensunset

Other

richo262 wrote: »

Yes

However.

It would be this:
1) Normal only
2) 200CP minimum (gear is junk under 160 anyway)
3) Higher CP unlocks harder trials. 200 = Crag. 250 = CR/AS/KA/SS. 300 = MOL. 350 = HOF.
4) Trials that require a split must force the group to split.

1 - Some crags are vet pug-able. Most are not. Vet would be a nightmare.
2 - I'm sure many players under 200CP can do it, it i just a benchmark.
3 - Trials like Hel Ra Cit will require the group to split into two groups and if this is messed up and you don't end up with a tank downstairs things can get messy. When the trial starts you are notified what group you are in. Group 1 includes 1 tank, 1 heal, 4 dps and they can only go downstairs. Group 2 is invisi-walled from entering downstairs. If somebody fails to get to their right spot they get ported to the right location similar to how new dungeons and trials operate when boss fights start.

Also nMOL regarding the two tanks. Group 1 - 1 tank 4 dps 1 heal is ported to other side of room. Group 2 - 1 tank 4 dps 1 heal remains at entrance.

People concerned about fake tanks. You'll probably only get a few that que as tank by accident or are really new. A trial finder will hoover up many DPS players. Especially if the daily XP reward was Random Dungeon OR Trial. You'll find fake tanks that fake tank dungeons will probably just DPS a random trial instead clearing up the backlog in the Dungeon que.

Don't forget, people can still form groups in craglorn, it just means that if you are waiting in craglorn for 3 dps and cannot find them, you simply que and it'll scoop them up from the finder. You'll probably find most trial groups will still be preformed for the most part.

It doesn't matter one single wit how many DDs the trial finder hoovers up if tanks and healers don't queue and almost every tank and healer I've seen voice in on this is that this is something they would never in a milion year touch. I know I wouldn't and no amount of reward would ever be able to make me. So yeah unless you can convince enough tanks and healers that they should use this then you'll still have the same issue with DDs queuing as tank or healer because queue time for DDs si seen as "too long".

richo262

Yes

I tank, I'd do it.

Also, half the normal trials don't even need a tank.

redgreensunset

Other

richo262 wrote: »

I tank, I'd do it.

Also, half the normal trials don't even need a tank.

And here we go with the first argument for fake tanks in trials. And some groups can do it, sure but can every single group do it? No, just like in dungeons. Which is the reason why there's a role for healer, tank and dd.

Which is why I'm saying that the increase in threads about people cheating the system (and making their team fail as a result) would explode if a trial finder was put into place.

I mean good on you if you and your gro up can run a trial with no tank and no healer, but that doesn't mean that everyone would be able to.

richo262

Yes

No need to get your panties in a bunch.

I'm merely saying the tank is not as significant as you think in normal. If the tank is not that great, the trial will still complete.

As I said before, and this is the most important thing. Groups will still primarily be formed in craglorn. The finder just fills the rest of the group. They could even make is so that you need at least 6 players (one being a tank) in a group before they can que.

1 preform of 6 or more can gather single users queing for trials. This means, the preform can decide on tanks 1, or 2 tanks etc. The preform will likely also know the mechanics. This allows for 1 to 6 people from the finder just looking for a trial being pulled into the group.

This would mean that, tanks actually cannot que by themselves anyway, they would need to be in the preform. Every trial has 2 healers. Every trial has 1 or 2 tanks (decided by preform) and the rest is DPS can be taken from the finder system (and healers if their isn't 2).

UGotBenched91

Yes

Yes, not everyone has time to set aside for guild runs. If you don’t like it dont use it. If people complain that their groups of randoms when using it can’t complete the content then they can find a guild.

This is why I focus more on PvP. I can play it whenever it fits my schedule. PVE doesn’t work this way.

5cript

Yes

Why not for normal trials?

For all the "OMG FAKE TANK ERMAHGERD" shouters: you seemingly have your guilds, so why use the finder?
I dont get that.

Although I dont think vet in pugs is possible. And likely shouldn't be by design.
Therefore I think only have normal trial queues.

Taunky

Yes

I'm all in favor for a Trial Group Finder. For those who argue that there will undoubtedly be fake tanks/healers, that doesn't have to stop you from standing in Craglorn and collaborating via Zone Chat all day to get an organized group forming.

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

Nope.
Trials and Arenas can be designed to be more difficult because they don't have to be balanced for a party of randoms.

Also, do we really think that ZOS can manage to implement one properly? Its only been around 6 months since they got the current Groupfinder working.

Pretty much this. I have seen other games add their "normal" raids to the GF and end up having to nerf the raids heavily to the point that mechanics are pointless because most random GF groups fail miserably trying to clear them. Considering the regular flow of forum threads complaining about dungeon GF groups we know it will be a huge train wreck in ESO. As such it seems it would be a very bad business decision for Zos to add even normal dungeons to the GF.

Join a guild that has players that lead raids. Better yet, be part of the solution and start forming and leading the raids yourself. It works amazingly well.

josiahva

Yes

I find the argument of bad players(fake tanks, fake healers, bad DPS) to be complete garbage. If you have a fake tank or healer...vote to kick solves that real fast, getting a new tank or healer for a trial through queue is going to be much faster than a dungeon since the roles in a trial are closer to the actual player population than they are in a dungeon. The fact is, there is no downside at all to implementing this....those who don't use group finder for dungeons, wont use it for trials, and those that do will...it is EXACTLY THE SAME. Just like group finder for dungeons, you go in expecting to have a less-than-ideal run because just like group finder for dungeons you will run into players of varying skill levels. The hardest part of having a group finder for trials is that if the group has low DPS, it would be far harder to pinpoint the worst offenders...tank or healer would be obvious immediately, but that is more an inconvenience than anything else. If your attitude about group finder in general is a guaranteed clear....well, that is an attitude problem and has nothing to do with group finder.

The ONLY argument that holds any water against a trial finder is that ZOS would feel more inclined to nerf trial content....but does that really even matter as long as they continue to release new trials? Lets take a dungeon as an example...in particular the planar inhibitor fight in vWGT. When that first came out, it was an incredibly difficult fight requiring good teamwork. They nerfed it several times over the years and it is now at a point it never wipes any pug any more. No longer the group-breaker it once was. Personally I am disappointed in the nerfs to the fight, it de-values all of the earlier achievements I got in that dungeon....but at the same time I realize it doesn't really matter because I got the challenge out of that fight while it still existed and in the meantime they have released vFV(and other vDLC dungeons) which has a similar group-breaking fight in the centurion laser-fight. Why do I really care that they nerfed the inhibitor who I killed 100 times before the nerfs when they are still adding more challenging content. It is true that newer players have an easier game than older players had...but its already that way, so it truly doesn't matter. That isn't to say that I want ZOS to nerf any more content, I surely don't, just that its really no big deal if they end up nerfing old stuff.

Heelie

No

josiahva wrote: »

I find the argument of bad players(fake tanks, fake healers, bad DPS) to be complete garbage. If you have a fake tank or healer...vote to kick solves that real fast, getting a new tank or healer for a trial through queue is going to be much faster than a dungeon since the roles in a trial are closer to the actual player population than they are in a dungeon. The fact is, there is no downside at all to implementing this....those who don't use group finder for dungeons, wont use it for trials, and those that do will...it is EXACTLY THE SAME. Just like group finder for dungeons, you go in expecting to have a less-than-ideal run because just like group finder for dungeons you will run into players of varying skill levels. The hardest part of having a group finder for trials is that if the group has low DPS, it would be far harder to pinpoint the worst offenders...tank or healer would be obvious immediately, but that is more an inconvenience than anything else. If your attitude about group finder in general is a guaranteed clear....well, that is an attitude problem and has nothing to do with group finder.

you're assuming that tanks will actually want to queue with 11 randoms when they have an easy time just grouping with premades or zone pugs? atm LFR group finder in wow has more than 100x queue time on dd than healer or tanks, tanks always have instant que pop healers rarely more than a minute, and dds often 30-40 mins

lozq

Yes

A lot of the time the adhoc trials you jump into via craglorn zone chat are more or less PUGs anyway. Usually there's a couple of people that know their stuff, but the rest are just randoms. For normal trials, anyway. So I don't really see why everyone thinks it would be as horrendous as all that. And of course if you hate it that much, you don't have to do it - stick with your guilds and handpicked groups.

At worst it means some god awful runs full of pointless slaughter, disappointment and vote-to-kicking. At best it means more people trying out trials and going on to git gud at them.

Maybe limit it to 160cp+ and put up a disclaimer when you first queue? 'This is a 12 man trial - we recommend you read up/watch a Youtube video/whatever before you queue for this' or something. Or...even a 'tutorial trial' you do, or something.

I dunno. Ideas and stuff.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Yes

Heelie wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I find the argument of bad players(fake tanks, fake healers, bad DPS) to be complete garbage. If you have a fake tank or healer...vote to kick solves that real fast, getting a new tank or healer for a trial through queue is going to be much faster than a dungeon since the roles in a trial are closer to the actual player population than they are in a dungeon. The fact is, there is no downside at all to implementing this....those who don't use group finder for dungeons, wont use it for trials, and those that do will...it is EXACTLY THE SAME. Just like group finder for dungeons, you go in expecting to have a less-than-ideal run because just like group finder for dungeons you will run into players of varying skill levels. The hardest part of having a group finder for trials is that if the group has low DPS, it would be far harder to pinpoint the worst offenders...tank or healer would be obvious immediately, but that is more an inconvenience than anything else. If your attitude about group finder in general is a guaranteed clear....well, that is an attitude problem and has nothing to do with group finder.

you're assuming that tanks will actually want to queue with 11 randoms when they have an easy time just grouping with premades or zone pugs? atm LFR group finder in wow has more than 100x queue time on dd than healer or tanks, tanks always have instant que pop healers rarely more than a minute, and dds often 30-40 mins

What's the difference between spamming zone chat in Crag or a overall group finder that works across all zones? Finding a random group of PUGs in zone chat is literally the same as PUGing in a group finder. The difference is a group finder is 100x better. More players to pool from across all zones and you can do things while waiting for the queue. Finding a group in zone as a DPS can take over an hour sometimes so I really dont see the point you're trying to make.

idk

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I find the argument of bad players(fake tanks, fake healers, bad DPS) to be complete garbage. If you have a fake tank or healer...vote to kick solves that real fast, getting a new tank or healer for a trial through queue is going to be much faster than a dungeon since the roles in a trial are closer to the actual player population than they are in a dungeon. The fact is, there is no downside at all to implementing this....those who don't use group finder for dungeons, wont use it for trials, and those that do will...it is EXACTLY THE SAME. Just like group finder for dungeons, you go in expecting to have a less-than-ideal run because just like group finder for dungeons you will run into players of varying skill levels. The hardest part of having a group finder for trials is that if the group has low DPS, it would be far harder to pinpoint the worst offenders...tank or healer would be obvious immediately, but that is more an inconvenience than anything else. If your attitude about group finder in general is a guaranteed clear....well, that is an attitude problem and has nothing to do with group finder.

you're assuming that tanks will actually want to queue with 11 randoms when they have an easy time just grouping with premades or zone pugs? atm LFR group finder in wow has more than 100x queue time on dd than healer or tanks, tanks always have instant que pop healers rarely more than a minute, and dds often 30-40 mins

What's the difference between spamming zone chat in Crag or a overall group finder that works across all zones? Finding a random group of PUGs in zone chat is literally the same as PUGing in a group finder. The difference is a group finder is 100x better. More players to pool from across all zones and you can do things while waiting for the queue. Finding a group in zone as a DPS can take over an hour sometimes so I really dont see the point you're trying to make.

One would think this is the case. However, when we are looking to fill a spot for a dungeon run we tend to get better results from Zone than GF. I think it has a lot to do with one method actually takes a little effort while the other is just clicking a button. That makes sense the biggest issue with GF groups is players not taking the time to figure things out such as the mechanics of dungeons (what they need to do) or even the basics of combat.

Further, other games have had to make changes because GF groups struggled greatly with their raids. SWTOR had nerf their normal raids so that mechanics were meaningless because GF groups could not handle it. WoW, afaik, created a system that added stacks of a buff for each time a GF grouped failed and wiped so that the more the group wiped the better chance they could power through and clear the raid. That is sad.

Heelie

No

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I find the argument of bad players(fake tanks, fake healers, bad DPS) to be complete garbage. If you have a fake tank or healer...vote to kick solves that real fast, getting a new tank or healer for a trial through queue is going to be much faster than a dungeon since the roles in a trial are closer to the actual player population than they are in a dungeon. The fact is, there is no downside at all to implementing this....those who don't use group finder for dungeons, wont use it for trials, and those that do will...it is EXACTLY THE SAME. Just like group finder for dungeons, you go in expecting to have a less-than-ideal run because just like group finder for dungeons you will run into players of varying skill levels. The hardest part of having a group finder for trials is that if the group has low DPS, it would be far harder to pinpoint the worst offenders...tank or healer would be obvious immediately, but that is more an inconvenience than anything else. If your attitude about group finder in general is a guaranteed clear....well, that is an attitude problem and has nothing to do with group finder.

you're assuming that tanks will actually want to queue with 11 randoms when they have an easy time just grouping with premades or zone pugs? atm LFR group finder in wow has more than 100x queue time on dd than healer or tanks, tanks always have instant que pop healers rarely more than a minute, and dds often 30-40 mins

What's the difference between spamming zone chat in Crag or a overall group finder that works across all zones? Finding a random group of PUGs in zone chat is literally the same as PUGing in a group finder. The difference is a group finder is 100x better. More players to pool from across all zones and you can do things while waiting for the queue. Finding a group in zone as a DPS can take over an hour sometimes so I really dont see the point you're trying to make.

if you're a tank and mostly as healer you get to choose the groups you play with. It's a lot easier to be selective around the group when forming a pug than through the group finder, I would'nt play with anyone with less than 600 cp unless I know them. it's a lot harder to get into a random 12 man group and then asking to have half the dds kicked than simple saying you wont play with bad ones as the group is forming.

Asdara

Yes

For normal trials YES, for Vet HUUUUUUUGE NO imagine getting stuck in vet with randoms lol

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Yes

idk wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I find the argument of bad players(fake tanks, fake healers, bad DPS) to be complete garbage. If you have a fake tank or healer...vote to kick solves that real fast, getting a new tank or healer for a trial through queue is going to be much faster than a dungeon since the roles in a trial are closer to the actual player population than they are in a dungeon. The fact is, there is no downside at all to implementing this....those who don't use group finder for dungeons, wont use it for trials, and those that do will...it is EXACTLY THE SAME. Just like group finder for dungeons, you go in expecting to have a less-than-ideal run because just like group finder for dungeons you will run into players of varying skill levels. The hardest part of having a group finder for trials is that if the group has low DPS, it would be far harder to pinpoint the worst offenders...tank or healer would be obvious immediately, but that is more an inconvenience than anything else. If your attitude about group finder in general is a guaranteed clear....well, that is an attitude problem and has nothing to do with group finder.

you're assuming that tanks will actually want to queue with 11 randoms when they have an easy time just grouping with premades or zone pugs? atm LFR group finder in wow has more than 100x queue time on dd than healer or tanks, tanks always have instant que pop healers rarely more than a minute, and dds often 30-40 mins

What's the difference between spamming zone chat in Crag or a overall group finder that works across all zones? Finding a random group of PUGs in zone chat is literally the same as PUGing in a group finder. The difference is a group finder is 100x better. More players to pool from across all zones and you can do things while waiting for the queue. Finding a group in zone as a DPS can take over an hour sometimes so I really dont see the point you're trying to make.

One would think this is the case. However, when we are looking to fill a spot for a dungeon run we tend to get better results from Zone than GF. I think it has a lot to do with one method actually takes a little effort while the other is just clicking a button. That makes sense the biggest issue with GF groups is players not taking the time to figure things out such as the mechanics of dungeons (what they need to do) or even the basics of combat.

Further, other games have had to make changes because GF groups struggled greatly with their raids. SWTOR had nerf their normal raids so that mechanics were meaningless because GF groups could not handle it. WoW, afaik, created a system that added stacks of a buff for each time a GF grouped failed and wiped so that the more the group wiped the better chance they could power through and clear the raid. That is sad.

You're making it sound like getting PUGs in zone works out perfect. All the problems you mentioned arent alleviated by looking in zone. PUGs from zone chat are just as bad half the time.

Heelie wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I find the argument of bad players(fake tanks, fake healers, bad DPS) to be complete garbage. If you have a fake tank or healer...vote to kick solves that real fast, getting a new tank or healer for a trial through queue is going to be much faster than a dungeon since the roles in a trial are closer to the actual player population than they are in a dungeon. The fact is, there is no downside at all to implementing this....those who don't use group finder for dungeons, wont use it for trials, and those that do will...it is EXACTLY THE SAME. Just like group finder for dungeons, you go in expecting to have a less-than-ideal run because just like group finder for dungeons you will run into players of varying skill levels. The hardest part of having a group finder for trials is that if the group has low DPS, it would be far harder to pinpoint the worst offenders...tank or healer would be obvious immediately, but that is more an inconvenience than anything else. If your attitude about group finder in general is a guaranteed clear....well, that is an attitude problem and has nothing to do with group finder.

you're assuming that tanks will actually want to queue with 11 randoms when they have an easy time just grouping with premades or zone pugs? atm LFR group finder in wow has more than 100x queue time on dd than healer or tanks, tanks always have instant que pop healers rarely more than a minute, and dds often 30-40 mins

What's the difference between spamming zone chat in Crag or a overall group finder that works across all zones? Finding a random group of PUGs in zone chat is literally the same as PUGing in a group finder. The difference is a group finder is 100x better. More players to pool from across all zones and you can do things while waiting for the queue. Finding a group in zone as a DPS can take over an hour sometimes so I really dont see the point you're trying to make.

if you're a tank and mostly as healer you get to choose the groups you play with. It's a lot easier to be selective around the group when forming a pug than through the group finder, I would'nt play with anyone with less than 600 cp unless I know them. it's a lot harder to get into a random 12 man group and then asking to have half the dds kicked than simple saying you wont play with bad ones as the group is forming.

I agree that with the current group finder it wouldn't work, that's why the group finder needs to be completely changed, UI and all. Make it so you make a listing for a group, and select your own requirements for the group. On the search side of things make it so you can search for a group within the parameters that you set.

idk

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

idk wrote: »

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

I find the argument of bad players(fake tanks, fake healers, bad DPS) to be complete garbage. If you have a fake tank or healer...vote to kick solves that real fast, getting a new tank or healer for a trial through queue is going to be much faster than a dungeon since the roles in a trial are closer to the actual player population than they are in a dungeon. The fact is, there is no downside at all to implementing this....those who don't use group finder for dungeons, wont use it for trials, and those that do will...it is EXACTLY THE SAME. Just like group finder for dungeons, you go in expecting to have a less-than-ideal run because just like group finder for dungeons you will run into players of varying skill levels. The hardest part of having a group finder for trials is that if the group has low DPS, it would be far harder to pinpoint the worst offenders...tank or healer would be obvious immediately, but that is more an inconvenience than anything else. If your attitude about group finder in general is a guaranteed clear....well, that is an attitude problem and has nothing to do with group finder.

you're assuming that tanks will actually want to queue with 11 randoms when they have an easy time just grouping with premades or zone pugs? atm LFR group finder in wow has more than 100x queue time on dd than healer or tanks, tanks always have instant que pop healers rarely more than a minute, and dds often 30-40 mins

What's the difference between spamming zone chat in Crag or a overall group finder that works across all zones? Finding a random group of PUGs in zone chat is literally the same as PUGing in a group finder. The difference is a group finder is 100x better. More players to pool from across all zones and you can do things while waiting for the queue. Finding a group in zone as a DPS can take over an hour sometimes so I really dont see the point you're trying to make.

One would think this is the case. However, when we are looking to fill a spot for a dungeon run we tend to get better results from Zone than GF. I think it has a lot to do with one method actually takes a little effort while the other is just clicking a button. That makes sense the biggest issue with GF groups is players not taking the time to figure things out such as the mechanics of dungeons (what they need to do) or even the basics of combat.

Further, other games have had to make changes because GF groups struggled greatly with their raids. SWTOR had nerf their normal raids so that mechanics were meaningless because GF groups could not handle it. WoW, afaik, created a system that added stacks of a buff for each time a GF grouped failed and wiped so that the more the group wiped the better chance they could power through and clear the raid. That is sad.

You're making it sound like getting PUGs in zone works out perfect. All the problems you mentioned arent alleviated by looking in zone. PUGs from zone chat are just as bad half the time.

For dungeons, I have gotten into some pretty good pugs. Granted, they were 3 man groups and ironically sometimes actual guild groups. However, you are right in noting pug groups face challenges which is exactly my point. In most cases, they already have two strikes against them because very few decent tanks are willing to pug, and most decent dps can prefer to run with the same guilds those decent tanks run with because they want to experience decent runs. It is, for this reason, other games have had to significantly nerf raids when they added them to their GF and that is bad for the game which is also why this type of suggestion does affect me even though I have no need for the GF because I took the time to find guilds to raid with.

So I stand by what I already stated and provided actual proof of from other games, that adding raids to the GF is bad for the game because it leads to nerfing the little challenge there is to the normal content.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Yes

Other games =/= ESO, so your "proof" comes with a grain of salt. Yes you proved other games nerf their content but that doesnt explicitly mean ZOS will nerf the content for the group finder. Until it happens its speculation and that's not solid proof of anything.

And if Trails were too difficult even for people PUGing in zone they would have nerfed the content already. The end results are the same weither its Zone or a Party finder; you're gonna be put into a trail, the way you got into the trail is superfluous.

ZOS nerfs content all the time. They dont need a Party Finder to justify nerfs.