Why do Tanks now suck at this game?

VoxAdActa

The group finder can go to hell. As far as I'm concerned, the DPS players in this game have ensured that the role queue is meaningless; if I go tank, I'll be tanking for three whiny DDs who pull maybe 30k dps put together; if I go healer, I'll be healing for three whiny DDs who can't even spell the word "mechanics" but who will vote to kick me the instant they get one-shot by one.

To hell with 'em.

And they wonder why their queue times just keep getting longer and longer.

amm7sb14_ESO

josiahva wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

r3turn2s3nd3r wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

3. Good tanking can make bosses so much easier, a very good example for it is the king in vDoM, u can stack them in less than 10 seconds for ez destro ults making even horrible dds to be able to pass it.

I think ZOS did sth and now King's copies cannot stack as they used to. I tried to last time I was there 1-2 months ago and although all were taunted and I was in corner, they wouldnt approach me.

I remember very clearly that they DID stack, since that's how I completed the vet mode for the first time.

You can still stack them. Cleared that way 2 weeks ago. (bunny hop when you get in the corner)

Really? I used to taunt them all and then stay at the corner, they would instantly all gather in front of me. When I did it again some time ago, although taunted, they just stood at their places. Maybe your trick will work, will give it a try next time I get there.

They can be stacked, but inner fire isnt going to do it for you...at least not alone. As a ranged ad(like all ranged ads) they have an invisible tether to you when taunted...they stay X distance away(call it 20 meters since I dont really know)....so to stack ads like that, you taunt them then run to the opposite corner...so in the end you end up running into each corner and it loosely stacks them in the middle. You can't stack these guys in 10 seconds(unless you are all-out sprinting, which is tough on your stamina after taunting all 4 of them)...but you might be able to in 15 seconds

Yup. I've only done that fight on my Warden tank, but that's what I did. Pierce Armor, hit my Falcon for Expedition, run to the next corner, next corner, next corner, and then the corner again to "stack" them all in the middle.

amm7sb14_ESO

redspecter23 wrote: »

I like to think I tank reasonably well.

I avoid pug groups at all costs due to potential basement tier dps (4k is not uncommon) and various pets (Daedroth mostly these days) making tanking a miserable experience.

If that's contributing to fewer tanks in the queue, you can make of that what you will.

Last time I did a PUG, I did a daily random and got vet Spindle 2. Okay, this will be easy I thought.

I noticed that the trash was dying slowly. And the first boss took forever to kill. I started watching my dps - I didn't track numbers but by animations it looked like they were only heavy attacking. I asked if they were only heavy attacking, and they said no. We got to the 2nd boss, Bloodspawn, and the dps was dreadful. We actually wiped. Normally, I'd try to stay and help out, but I already wasn't feeling good and was exhausted, so I just dropped. I haven't PUG'd since.

When I can only find 2 or 3 in guild and have to pug the last spot, I've had so many DPS that either can't crank out the necessary damage, or can crank out the damage but have no concept of survivability or self sustain. It's frustrating getting the parse-glory hounds who think a 70k or 90k parse is all they need and don't understand the other elements of the game beyond cranking out damage. That's nice that you crank out 70k dps, but you're cranking out 0 when you're dead, and reducing group dps when the other DD has to rez you constantly.

jaws343

Personally, I've mothballed my tank outside of PVP settings. Running a tank in a dungeon is often annoying. You are so reliant on the rest of the group to complete the dungeon. You can be the best tank in the game but if the DPS are bad, or the healer can't keep group members alive, the run is going nowhere. It's often a waste of time trying to work a group through a dungeon and being mostly unable to contribute effectively to getting through it.

At least on a DPS I know I can make up for a weak DPs or a bad healer. Or even handle light tanking if the tank goes down. Often able to solo many of the vet bosses and pretty near all of the normal ones. So the chance of failing a dungeon is greatly diminished for most dungeons. It is still there and there are still times where it is clear the group is just not going to clear the dungeon, but at least on a DPS some of the shortfalls can be overcome more readily than on a tank.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

depravity_influence wrote: »

Frist off, this is not towards all tank half of the ones I've encountered are really decent and good but there is a new trend of tanks just being awful.
not sure its mostly dps queing as tanks for fast ques or if its just really crappy players that dont know their class amd skills.
Being a tank in this game used to mean something. They were look at as leading the group and holding mobs now i just expect them fail/suck and get us all killed. you cant blame heals or dps on this unless they are pulling aggro from the tank, but a decent tank will always keep aggro most oft he time.
I shouldnt haveto join a guild just to do dailies or trials.
And i know everyone will say, "Well you get what you get when you PUG." and this is very true but it wasnt always this bad and it has gotten much worse.

I do not queue with my proper tanks for dungeons, even normal difficulty ones. The amount of fake DDs who just use expedition gear to move around fast doing no damage is the perfect reason.

Set group yes.
PUG that I know at least one of the DDs is descent and are together before queue yes.
But total random hell no.

Same applies to my healers but they have an easier time as can switch do more damage and less healing easily. Hell both can tank non DLC dungeon also if needed is not that hard.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

ToxicOutrage wrote: »

People at PUGs are bad, period. I rarely get people do over 20k dmg in vet dungeons as a tank

vet DLC dungeons with PUG is a nightmare as a tank indeed.

Aznarb

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Because all of us good tanks have been driven to doing trials and raids with only our own groups, because DPS continue to tell us how to build our characters, tell us we aren't needed, and then constantly blame us first when anything goes wrong. DPS just want to 3 and 4 DD their dungeons or tell us how to play our own characters, so we've left them to figure it out for themselves while we do dungeons and trials with our own guild groups that treat us with respect and appreciate our efforts.

It's even worse as healer tbh.
Tank are still needed in 3DD comp, however as healer, when you and the group become very good at the game, you've two choice to play DG/Arene ; Switch to DD or let your place to DD.
Cuz you're useless. Even if your friend don't mind, you'll feel useless anyway cuz they know mech and won't take enough dmg to justify a healer.

That why since me and my groupe have becoming good enough to do evry content, I play way less because I love heal, not DPS or Tank and so I'm just here, feeling useless outside of raid.

Edit :
I forget, but let be clair about one point, it's NOT DD fault. It ZoS design choice fault.

To the topic I'll add : Tank are bad cuz many, many good guild don't want to teach them how to become better and instead just pick a tank they know is already used to it, especially HL guild.

SamanthaCarter

Kick tanks of pvp and most pve content they are useless

amm7sb14_ESO

Aznarb wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Because all of us good tanks have been driven to doing trials and raids with only our own groups, because DPS continue to tell us how to build our characters, tell us we aren't needed, and then constantly blame us first when anything goes wrong. DPS just want to 3 and 4 DD their dungeons or tell us how to play our own characters, so we've left them to figure it out for themselves while we do dungeons and trials with our own guild groups that treat us with respect and appreciate our efforts.

It's even worse as healer tbh.
Tank are still needed in 3DD comp, however as healer, when you and the group become very good at the game, you've two choice to play DG/Arene ; Switch to DD or let your place to DD.
Cuz you're useless. Even if your friend don't mind, you'll feel useless anyway cuz they know mech and won't take enough dmg to justify a healer.

That why since me and my groupe have becoming good enough to do evry content, I play way less because I love heal, not DPS or Tank and so I'm just here, feeling useless outside of raid.

Edit :
I forget, but let be clair about one point, it's NOT DD fault. It ZoS design choice fault.

To the topic I'll add : Tank are bad cuz many, many good guild don't want to teach them how to become better and instead just pick a tank they know is already used to it, especially HL guild.

Healers definitely have a bad go of it too. I do have a couple healers, don't run them as often since I main tanks, but yes, the healers have the shaft too. This game is catered too much to DD's.

josiahva

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

ToxicOutrage wrote: »

People at PUGs are bad, period. I rarely get people do over 20k dmg in vet dungeons as a tank

vet DLC dungeons with PUG is a nightmare as a tank indeed.

People say this...but my reality is different, I pug tank the DLC dungeons all the time(though the only non-DLC dungeons I run anymore are the random daily ones that happen to be non-DLC, I rarely complete the non-DLC pledges these days). My experience in pug tanking the vet DLC dungeons is that pugs are able to complete them just fine about 70%+ of the time as long as you as the tank know the mechs and do your job. It is true that pugs often do not do the dungeons well, and its especially true that they are rarely able to complete HM on the vet DLCs, but just a standard run is really not that hard

HalvarIronfist

depravity_influence wrote: »

Frist off, this is not towards all tank half of the ones I've encountered are really decent and good but there is a new trend of tanks just being awful.
not sure its mostly dps queing as tanks for fast ques or if its just really crappy players that dont know their class amd skills.
Being a tank in this game used to mean something. They were look at as leading the group and holding mobs now i just expect them fail/suck and get us all killed. you cant blame heals or dps on this unless they are pulling aggro from the tank, but a decent tank will always keep aggro most oft he time.
I shouldnt haveto join a guild just to do dailies or trials.
And i know everyone will say, "Well you get what you get when you PUG." and this is very true but it wasnt always this bad and it has gotten much worse.

As a tank main. I do not ever pug anything anymore. Beyond simple things like fungal grotto 1 or so forth. For example.. try pug tanking Banished Cells 2. I was completely capable of doing it, but through pugs I went through about 8 dps players and 2 healers. Healers left out of frustration, DPS couldn't handle mechanics/daedroth most of the time, leaving me, le pug tank with 4-6 daedroth running around, plus the boss.

Just a short example. As more pug tank mains learn this, immediately they distance from it.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

HalvarIronfist wrote: »

depravity_influence wrote: »

Frist off, this is not towards all tank half of the ones I've encountered are really decent and good but there is a new trend of tanks just being awful.
not sure its mostly dps queing as tanks for fast ques or if its just really crappy players that dont know their class amd skills.
Being a tank in this game used to mean something. They were look at as leading the group and holding mobs now i just expect them fail/suck and get us all killed. you cant blame heals or dps on this unless they are pulling aggro from the tank, but a decent tank will always keep aggro most oft he time.
I shouldnt haveto join a guild just to do dailies or trials.
And i know everyone will say, "Well you get what you get when you PUG." and this is very true but it wasnt always this bad and it has gotten much worse.

As a tank main. I do not ever pug anything anymore. Beyond simple things like fungal grotto 1 or so forth. For example.. try pug tanking Banished Cells 2. I was completely capable of doing it, but through pugs I went through about 8 dps players and 2 healers. Healers left out of frustration, DPS couldn't handle mechanics/daedroth most of the time, leaving me, le pug tank with 4-6 daedroth running around, plus the boss.

Just a short example. As more pug tank mains learn this, immediately they distance from it.

I'm a tank main, too.

I get the frustration. I try to explain mechanics, explain that this needs to be done or they will not clear, period.

Eventually it hits the inevitable DPS matter and that's where I get garbage thrown at me, and that I should be doing the DPS, apparently.

I really need to make a build that can deal more damage so I can make up for things. Right now it's a very pure tank, with no damage at all really.

Like I only want to help but when that help gets thrown at your face because you know, has to be the tank's fault, even when I haven't died, I have kept everything taunted... But the DPS stands in stupid.

amm7sb14_ESO

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

HalvarIronfist wrote: »

depravity_influence wrote: »

Frist off, this is not towards all tank half of the ones I've encountered are really decent and good but there is a new trend of tanks just being awful.
not sure its mostly dps queing as tanks for fast ques or if its just really crappy players that dont know their class amd skills.
Being a tank in this game used to mean something. They were look at as leading the group and holding mobs now i just expect them fail/suck and get us all killed. you cant blame heals or dps on this unless they are pulling aggro from the tank, but a decent tank will always keep aggro most oft he time.
I shouldnt haveto join a guild just to do dailies or trials.
And i know everyone will say, "Well you get what you get when you PUG." and this is very true but it wasnt always this bad and it has gotten much worse.

As a tank main. I do not ever pug anything anymore. Beyond simple things like fungal grotto 1 or so forth. For example.. try pug tanking Banished Cells 2. I was completely capable of doing it, but through pugs I went through about 8 dps players and 2 healers. Healers left out of frustration, DPS couldn't handle mechanics/daedroth most of the time, leaving me, le pug tank with 4-6 daedroth running around, plus the boss.

Just a short example. As more pug tank mains learn this, immediately they distance from it.

I'm a tank main, too.

I get the frustration. I try to explain mechanics, explain that this needs to be done or they will not clear, period.

Eventually it hits the inevitable DPS matter and that's where I get garbage thrown at me, and that I should be doing the DPS, apparently.

I really need to make a build that can deal more damage so I can make up for things. Right now it's a very pure tank, with no damage at all really.

Like I only want to help but when that help gets thrown at your face because you know, has to be the tank's fault, even when I haven't died, I have kept everything taunted... But the DPS stands in stupid.

My main tank is a necro that also happens to be vampire as well, so I can definitely slot in some supplemental DPS if needed. There's even been times when my main trial group has asked me to slot a little extra DPS to help out in some of those DPS check fights where pure tanking isnt as important.

BlueRaven

Constant nerfs to tank (and healer) dps and armor has taken a serious hit on tank QOL. It’s like ZOS does not understand there is more to this game then dungeons.

I am doing the summer set event on almost all of my characters, care to guess which ones I am not doing them on?

Why do a delve daily when I can do the same daily in less then half the time on a dps?

Why do a wb daily when I may not get loot due to low dps?

I have five at least moderately geared tanks that I can’t use outside of group settings. (DK, NB, Templar x2, and one necro.) Zos has made them painful to play on their own so I only log onto them when the people I know ask me.

RaveRaveRaveRave

I have fun pugging as a tank...most of the time. I like to consider it a blessing to the randoms that receive a real/experienced tank and they are in for an extremely smooth run as well as an opportunity to get achievements they would never get otherwise...depending on their level of course.

Kadoin

BlueRaven wrote: »

Constant nerfs to tank (and healer) dps and armor has taken a serious hit on tank QOL. It’s like ZOS does not understand there is more to this game then dungeons.

I am doing the summer set event on almost all of my characters, care to guess which ones I am not doing them on?

Why do a delve daily when I can do the same daily in less then half the time on a dps?

Why do a wb daily when I may not get loot due to low dps?

I have five at least moderately geared tanks that I can’t use outside of group settings. (DK, NB, Templar x2, and one necro.) Zos has made them painful to play on their own so I only log onto them when the people I know ask me.

That change was a crappy one that ZOS should really walk back. It literally does nothing but punish legit players over the off-chance someone was botting or leeching to get drops. Why should everyone have to suffer for the minority of abusers?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

As a vet player from beta I have a tank in each class just to shake things up and well tanking in the game sucks.

Tank life is trash sets that buff other players health cause they can’t be bothered. Sets that adds dps. Damage buffing sets and powers are boring your whole is buff, stack mobs, hold the boss, Rez they people that are mad at you cause they stood in red and dyed.

You don’t have to build for the fight just be a DK with max health food buff, heavy armor with One Hand and Shield will get you pass most content. Like everything it has it moments but being a DD or healer is just more fun.

Tanks are just an extension to DD’s buff bar. It’s the least fun role in the group. Lightning Staff is your buff bar so you drop Wall. Two handed adds more to tank builds, ice lets you block with magic but no lightning is BiS.

Knightpanther

I mained a Tank in EQ, EQ2 and WOW, i stopped when dps meter add ons were introduced.

All DPS give a *** about is trying to look good and top the meter - most dps are idiots who cant follow instructions and blame everyone else when it goes wrong - pretty much the same reason i quit end game PVE.

As soon as folks ditch dps meters and add ons that stop people actually thinking for themselves MMOs will continue to be ruined.

Be Safe

zvavi

BlueRaven wrote: »

It’s like ZOS does not understand there is more to this game then dungeons.

They are definitely not balancing it for dungeons.

Kadoin

zvavi wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

It’s like ZOS does not understand there is more to this game then dungeons.

They are definitely not balancing it for dungeons.

Yeah look at Ritual of Retribution getting gutted twice in a row: lost snare , lost healing. Now my templar tank is back to being a meme and still doesn't have any real native immobilize skill or hp% heal.

The balancing in the game sucks because they like to take more than they give, and most of it, does come from PvP balance issues that actually are the result of unchecked powercreep from adding sets on the game that they refuse to take any input on.

I think even when perfected false god's was introduced I said it was a bad idea to leave the magicka line there on PTS and should be spell damage because it gives more than ZOS thought it did, then later down the line they change it...I am just like Then Thrassian...

Another example of not listening to PTS input, only for it to be proven later down the line that something would be a problem, having to nerf it, then having players get angry. I am pretty sure I can call all the next nerfs on day 2 of the next patch because its getting obvious at this point what is OP and what is not OP + what is going to be broken in PvE and/or PvP...

zvavi

Kadoin wrote: »

Yeah look at Ritual of Retribution getting gutted twice in a row: lost snare , lost healing. Now my templar tank is back to being a meme and still doesn't have any real native immobilize skill or hp% heal.

M8 Templar tank feels like budget NB tank, and it ain't a good feeling. Vigor as self heal is not the solution. And heck do they need a solution.

Myrddin1357

depravity_influence wrote: »

Frist off, this is not towards all tank half of the ones I've encountered are really decent and good but there is a new trend of tanks just being awful.
not sure its mostly dps queing as tanks for fast ques or if its just really crappy players that dont know their class amd skills.
Being a tank in this game used to mean something. They were look at as leading the group and holding mobs now i just expect them fail/suck and get us all killed. you cant blame heals or dps on this unless they are pulling aggro from the tank, but a decent tank will always keep aggro most oft he time.
I shouldnt haveto join a guild just to do dailies or trials.
And i know everyone will say, "Well you get what you get when you PUG." and this is very true but it wasnt always this bad and it has gotten much worse.

To be fair, you can replace tank with dps in your post and it will be just as valid. All my alts (11 of them) level up to 50 as tanks by doing 1 random daily a day and then get to undaunted max level by tanking non-dlc vet HM dailies for about a week. I spend a lot of time pug tanking. And I do real tanking - proper specs, ebon, torugs, warhorn, debuffing boss, pulling adds together, etc.

I run into tons of dps who just cannot do any dps (less than 10K) in vet dungeons. More than half of my pug attempts of vBC2 last boss end in failure due to lack of dps. Even on normal some boss fights take 6 or 7 minutes (which is insanely long) cos both dps are doing around 10k combined.

I'm sure the same can be said of healers but i can't talk from experience because there are no non-dlc vet dungeon where a healer is even necessary. So it is not obvious to me when healers are not doing much healing.

This game has a general problem with teaching people the basics. People who get good learn from others but there a lots of players who just don't anything with other players and play eso like a single player game.

I think it has gotten worse cos the general population of casual players have grown much bigger and some of the experienced players have moved on or are taking a break.

volkeswagon

I don't think it's ethical criticising the skill of other players. If you want a good tank learn to be one or teach an interested guildmate to be one.

radiostar

lol, ya it ain't tanks sucking. it's "everybody help me dps" LOL j/k

BlueRaven

zvavi wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

It’s like ZOS does not understand there is more to this game then dungeons.

They are definitely not balancing it for dungeons.

Agreed. I feel the source of a lot of these changes are probably rooted in pvp. I just did not want the thread to turn into a pvp vs pve one.

CallumTheClot

I think folk seem to forget that tanks are just normal ppl.
i mostly tank, I dont mind if i have a low dps group. As long as there willing to learn. Its a very rare thing having to leave the group because we cant progress.

There is different styles of tanking as well tho. If I notice that dps is solid on the first pull, I dedicate my resources to stacking and synergies. I dont need to taunt every single effing mob. I don't have infinite resources!!!

I was in a vet base game dng yesterday with a dps who kept dying (just him, no one else). the dps was solid, and if this individual knew how to survive without a babysitter everything would have been fine. But no, I got hate msgs bcs im a bad tank
IN A PUG. You have no idea who your teaming with. you need self sustain.

Also, remember, chapter just dropped. You will have new ppl who want to learn tank. Give them a break, encourage them and stop expecting everyone to be god.

Have a wonderful day forum folk

and chill

Asardes

I've just recently completed my 13th tour of veteran dungeons, base game, as well as DLC on my new Stamina DK on PC-NA. Naturally I geared him as tank and queue as such. Since I've done it a dozen times before I already knew know the drill - I use the check and dump tactic. If the group DPS is really lame I just dump the group and re-queue until I find one with decent DPS since it takes less than just bearing trough the dungeons with often relatively high CP players that are so bad they can't even break 15k DPS - seriously, you can do nearly as much just spamming light and heavy attacks, with 2 DoTs you're already heading towards 25k. Some people had the nerve to queue for veteran Bloodroot Forge and it took like 5 minutes for them to kill the first boss, the bear. I checked the CMX and group DPS was hovering around 25K (with AoE) of which I was doing ~15% as tank. I mean they're just entitled if they think they will find a group to carry them trough, and it's not uncommon for 3 such people to meet. Then I just leave them be. On the other hand I found a really good group and I ended up doing vDoM HM on first attempt with them. Maybe if people would stop queuing as fake DPS tanks would be more forthcoming.

CallumTheClot

This is the first thread and the first group of pp i've ever heard use the phrase "fake dps".
Not everyone is good at the game, they still want to complete vet content.
If you queue for a pug dng, you might get one or even two of those "filthy peasants, with there less than optimal dps".

How about helping them, and living up to this communities' reputation?

mairwen85

CallumTheClot wrote: »

This is the first thread and the first group of pp ...

Group of what now? 👀

volkeswagon

mairwen85 wrote: »

CallumTheClot wrote: »

This is the first thread and the first group of pp ...

Group of what now? 👀

Peepee