Why do Tanks now suck at this game?

depravity_influence

Frist off, this is not towards all tank half of the ones I've encountered are really decent and good but there is a new trend of tanks just being awful.
not sure its mostly dps queing as tanks for fast ques or if its just really crappy players that dont know their class amd skills.
Being a tank in this game used to mean something. They were look at as leading the group and holding mobs now i just expect them fail/suck and get us all killed. you cant blame heals or dps on this unless they are pulling aggro from the tank, but a decent tank will always keep aggro most oft he time.
I shouldnt haveto join a guild just to do dailies or trials.
And i know everyone will say, "Well you get what you get when you PUG." and this is very true but it wasnt always this bad and it has gotten much worse.

mairwen85

The scarcely seen winged-unicorn of a decent PUG tank does exist, I've stumbled on a few--yes they are rare, rarer than naturally occurring astatine, but they are out there, and when you find one, friend them immediately!

amm7sb14_ESO

Because all of us good tanks have been driven to doing trials and raids with only our own groups, because DPS continue to tell us how to build our characters, tell us we aren't needed, and then constantly blame us first when anything goes wrong. DPS just want to 3 and 4 DD their dungeons or tell us how to play our own characters, so we've left them to figure it out for themselves while we do dungeons and trials with our own guild groups that treat us with respect and appreciate our efforts.

Wildberryjack

Shortage of good tanks and heals for PUGs is an issue in most games. But the reason there is a shortage is because they are blamed for everything that goes wrong and treated like crap. Who would want to put up with that? So they only run with friends and guildies and PUGs are left with people who really do not know how to play tank or heal and are just winging it.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

mairwen85 wrote: »

The scarcely seen winged-unicorn of a decent PUG tank does exist, I've stumbled on a few--yes they are rare, rarer than naturally occurring astatine, but they are out there, and when you find one, friend them immediately!

... invite to guild immediately lol

Wildberryjack wrote: »

Shortage of good tanks and heals for PUGs is an issue in most games. But the reason there is a shortage is because they are blamed for everything that goes wrong and treated like crap. Who would want to put up with that? So they only run with friends and guildies and PUGs are left with people who really do not know how to play tank or heal and are just winging it.

As a healer, I can attest. When someone blames me for their death (not rolling out of mob or aoe, not blocking boss hits, etc.) I won't heal them the rest of the dungeon. I will go out of my way to heal literally everyone else except them. After they die a few more times, I will start healing them again they either realize how much you actually were healing, or leave angrily, to which I say "good riddance."

To OP, I have noticed more fake tanks lately. Maybe new players from greymoor? Also lots of people farming for gear. When the tank immediately says "LF..." I start to cringe, because chances are they are another DPS trying to skip the queue time. I also noticed I have been joining in the middle of a lot more dungeons lately. The previous healer was either a fake and got kicked, or quit because.... I end up finding out its a fake tank and im in for a roller coaster ride.

At the same time though, there are plenty of "bad" tanks, in the sense of being squishy. Otherwise, they pull agro, stun mobs, etc. Maybe solo players, not invested in HP or heavy armor, stressing out their healer? Which.... is the other problem. Not only do we have fake/bad tanks, but we also have fake/bad healers. Its a bad time for all lol.

r3turn2s3nd3r

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Because all of us good tanks have been driven to doing trials and raids with only our own groups, because DPS continue to tell us how to build our characters, tell us we aren't needed, and then constantly blame us first when anything goes wrong. DPS just want to 3 and 4 DD their dungeons or tell us how to play our own characters, so we've left them to figure it out for themselves while we do dungeons and trials with our own guild groups that treat us with respect and appreciate our efforts.

Kinda this, most of the great tanks run with a set group because they are just as exasperated with fake dps as dps are with fake tanks. No good tank wants to sit in a dungeon and watch the dps slow cook a boss over 10 minutes. All the tanks I run with actually prefer 3 DD runs. They self sustain and self heal quite fine.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

r3turn2s3nd3r wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Because all of us good tanks have been driven to doing trials and raids with only our own groups, because DPS continue to tell us how to build our characters, tell us we aren't needed, and then constantly blame us first when anything goes wrong. DPS just want to 3 and 4 DD their dungeons or tell us how to play our own characters, so we've left them to figure it out for themselves while we do dungeons and trials with our own guild groups that treat us with respect and appreciate our efforts.

Kinda this, most of the great tanks run with a set group because they are just as exasperated with fake dps as dps are with fake tanks. No good tank wants to sit in a dungeon and watch the dps slow cook a boss over 10 minutes. All the tanks I run with actually prefer 3 DD runs. They self sustain and self heal quite fine.

PUGS are why I run a heal/bow/duel wield. I account for 50% of the dmg lots of times, while still keeping everyone alive. In trials though, I switch my bars/gear, and get to kick back with full time heals. Good times....

gatekeeper13

As someone who considers himself not a good tank but a decent one who has managed to tank some vDLC dungeons (vDoM, vFL, vFH, vICP, vWGT, vCoS) and now switched to playing mainly as a DD:

1) There is no point in playing as a tank anymore. The least enjoyable role with the most pressure.

2) Whenever group wipes, everyone will start yelling "it's the tank, kick him", no matter if the DDs dont have a clue how to stay out of AoE or block or the healer has no clue how to roll dodge a HA from an add.

3) Got sick of DDs sprinting and aggro all the mobs, making my job to CC even more difficult.

4) Players who expect the tank to have 30 adds stuck in place so that they can do a DPS parse as if they are facing a trial dummy.

5) DDs in group finder who do like 10k dps and have me to keep everything in the boss room under control for like 10 min.

6) Toxic trash in dungeon finder.

These are only some of the reasons I quit tanking. Now I play as a magsorc and a stamplar and in only 2 days since my stamplar was created, I managed to complete two vet trials (vHRC, vSO) with him and can parse 65k (not much but good for start). Playing as a DD is a ten times more enjoyable experience than tanking. I only tank anymore to help guildmates in need to complete content.

depravity_influence

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

Because all of us good tanks have been driven to doing trials and raids with only our own groups, because DPS continue to tell us how to build our characters, tell us we aren't needed, and then constantly blame us first when anything goes wrong. DPS just want to 3 and 4 DD their dungeons or tell us how to play our own characters, so we've left them to figure it out for themselves while we do dungeons and trials with our own guild groups that treat us with respect and appreciate our efforts.

i totally respect what your saying and dont blame any decent tank for saying faq it.

zvavi

Reasons to do play a tank:

1. It is kinda relaxing compared to dd.
2. Since there are no tanks in queue you are holding power over the pug group.
3. Good tanking can make bosses so much easier, a very good example for it is the king in vDoM, u can stack them in less than 10 seconds for ez destro ults making even horrible dds to be able to pass it.

gatekeeper13

zvavi wrote: »

3. Good tanking can make bosses so much easier, a very good example for it is the king in vDoM, u can stack them in less than 10 seconds for ez destro ults making even horrible dds to be able to pass it.

I think ZOS did sth and now King's copies cannot stack as they used to. I tried to last time I was there 1-2 months ago and although all were taunted and I was in corner, they wouldnt approach me.

I remember very clearly that they DID stack, since that's how I completed the vet mode for the first time.

r3turn2s3nd3r

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

3. Good tanking can make bosses so much easier, a very good example for it is the king in vDoM, u can stack them in less than 10 seconds for ez destro ults making even horrible dds to be able to pass it.

I think ZOS did sth and now King's copies cannot stack as they used to. I tried to last time I was there 1-2 months ago and although all were taunted and I was in corner, they wouldnt approach me.

I remember very clearly that they DID stack, since that's how I completed the vet mode for the first time.

You can still stack them. Cleared that way 2 weeks ago. (bunny hop when you get in the corner)

Sarannah

So I've stopped tanking for a few weeks... and I somehow knew posts like this would pop up!

As a lower level DPS doing normal dungeons I have noticed most tanks are not tanks at all. Never taunt, use two handed weapons, but switch to sword+shield in between fights. So it looks as if they are tanking during fights. As a DPS who just waited in queue for 30 minutes, it actually kinda pisses me off. What seems even more unfair is when I think about how fast those cheaters gain experience vs legit players.

gatekeeper13

r3turn2s3nd3r wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

3. Good tanking can make bosses so much easier, a very good example for it is the king in vDoM, u can stack them in less than 10 seconds for ez destro ults making even horrible dds to be able to pass it.

I think ZOS did sth and now King's copies cannot stack as they used to. I tried to last time I was there 1-2 months ago and although all were taunted and I was in corner, they wouldnt approach me.

I remember very clearly that they DID stack, since that's how I completed the vet mode for the first time.

You can still stack them. Cleared that way 2 weeks ago. (bunny hop when you get in the corner)

Really? I used to taunt them all and then stay at the corner, they would instantly all gather in front of me. When I did it again some time ago, although taunted, they just stood at their places. Maybe your trick will work, will give it a try next time I get there.

Tornaad

I'm sorry, I just started tanking. I know I suck, but I didn't realize I was dragging down the whole community.
I haven't even joined my first group yet.

tomofhyrule

I can only talk about myself.

This is my first MMO, and I only started playing group content about four months ago, so I'm still pretty new. I've done some reading about tanking, but reading only gets you so far - I've only been able to actually learn how to tank and practice from running with my guild. I don't think I'm perfect at all, but I have managed to do some harder/vet content by now. I know part of my job is to know the mechanics inside and out though, so I won't jump into anything that I haven't run before.

I have pretty well stopped PUGging even pledges though. I've had a lot of decent runs, but I've also had a few too many times when the entire thing went pretty badly. It's not fun to be in a group for a vet basegame when the group can't even burn trash before my claws expire, or the mag players sprint through the dungeon leaving me with no stamina to taunt or block, or someone continually goes out ahead of the tank so they take aggro before I can get there, or when someone runs around the room like a headless chicken collecting adds instead of doing damage and then I have to waste my limited resources to try to collect the adds instead of tanking the boss. And then you get the 'dude l2p/you suck!/fake tank!' messages and it just makes you frustrated (especially when I requeue for the same dungeon and complete it without issue, making it seem like I might not have been the problem...). It's really a terrible feeling that there's no support for support roles, so I'd much rather run with people who will help me improve, not make me work twice as hard and then I feel like trash since I'm not an Alcast-level pro.

Also, there's no training mode for support in game either. DPS can practice rotations or whatever on any of a number of dummies, but there's no equivalent for healers or tanks. Pretty well all we can do is run around the overland and try to chain in mobs, but they're so spread out in overland that it doesn't help. Add to that the fact that you do need to be able to do damage for questing (I always wonder when people talk about facerolling overland content since I find the difficulty fine, but then again as a tank I'm pulling 4-digit DPS), and it makes it inconvenient to have a tank build in the first place.

About the only benefit to being a tank is that your PUG queue is instant. But then you have to deal with having no DPS yourself unless you change your build around, having random groups who blame you for everything, possibly having a group damage output that won't clear the dungeon in a reasonable time or at all, possibly geting no resource regen or synergies from the others, and people being unwilling to help you improve.

...and I'm sure the fact that there are DPS who queue as a tank just to get that instant queue but can't actually act as a tank don't help. If you're a DPS and you need a tank, but all you get is some other line cutter who can't even pull good DPS but just wants a carry, it makes you want to get someone good. And then you get a tank-in-training, and you're still frustrated that you don't have an endgame player.

I play this game to have fun. Being told how much I suck in a run through a dungeon that I've previously cleared on vet hardmode with a different group without issue is the opposite of fun. I've noticed that, since I stopped PUGging and stuck to running with my guild, I'm having a lot more fun at the game, and I'm not crucified for mistakes, and I feel like I'm improving (which I can't say about PUGs), so that's what I'm going to stick with.

Sarannah

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I can only talk about myself.

This is my first MMO, and I only started playing group content about four months ago, so I'm still pretty new. I've done some reading about tanking, but reading only gets you so far - I've only been able to actually learn how to tank and practice from running with my guild. I don't think I'm perfect at all, but I have managed to do some harder/vet content by now. I know part of my job is to know the mechanics inside and out though, so I won't jump into anything that I haven't run before.

I have pretty well stopped PUGging even pledges though. I've had a lot of decent runs, but I've also had a few too many times when the entire thing went pretty badly. It's not fun to be in a group for a vet basegame when the group can't even burn trash before my claws expire, or the mag players sprint through the dungeon leaving me with no stamina to taunt or block, or someone continually goes out ahead of the tank so they take aggro before I can get there, or when someone runs around the room like a headless chicken collecting adds instead of doing damage and then I have to waste my limited resources to try to collect the adds instead of tanking the boss. And then you get the 'dude l2p/you suck!/fake tank!' messages and it just makes you frustrated (especially when I requeue for the same dungeon and complete it without issue, making it seem like I might not have been the problem...). It's really a terrible feeling that there's no support for support roles, so I'd much rather run with people who will help me improve, not make me work twice as hard and then I feel like trash since I'm not an Alcast-level pro.

Also, there's no training mode for support in game either. DPS can practice rotations or whatever on any of a number of dummies, but there's no equivalent for healers or tanks. Pretty well all we can do is run around the overland and try to chain in mobs, but they're so spread out in overland that it doesn't help. Add to that the fact that you do need to be able to do damage for questing (I always wonder when people talk about facerolling overland content since I find the difficulty fine, but then again as a tank I'm pulling 4-digit DPS), and it makes it inconvenient to have a tank build in the first place.

About the only benefit to being a tank is that your PUG queue is instant. But then you have to deal with having no DPS yourself unless you change your build around, having random groups who blame you for everything, possibly having a group damage output that won't clear the dungeon in a reasonable time or at all, possibly geting no resource regen or synergies from the others, and people being unwilling to help you improve.

...and I'm sure the fact that there are DPS who queue as a tank just to get that instant queue but can't actually act as a tank don't help. If you're a DPS and you need a tank, but all you get is some other line cutter who can't even pull good DPS but just wants a carry, it makes you want to get someone good. And then you get a tank-in-training, and you're still frustrated that you don't have an endgame player.

I play this game to have fun. Being told how much I suck in a run through a dungeon that I've previously cleared on vet hardmode with a different group without issue is the opposite of fun. I've noticed that, since I stopped PUGging and stuck to running with my guild, I'm having a lot more fun at the game, and I'm not crucified for mistakes, and I feel like I'm improving (which I can't say about PUGs), so that's what I'm going to stick with.

Never ever feel bad about making mistakes. Just queue up again and try again. Don't let others get you down.

Make sure to take inner fire, for a ranged taunt(magicka). All you will need is line of sight. And if you are low on resources due to running, start your heavy attack before reaching the mobs, so it will hit at the time you arrive there. That should fill about half your stamina bar, without any extra time/effort.

zvavi

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

3. Good tanking can make bosses so much easier, a very good example for it is the king in vDoM, u can stack them in less than 10 seconds for ez destro ults making even horrible dds to be able to pass it.

I think ZOS did sth and now King's copies cannot stack as they used to. I tried to last time I was there 1-2 months ago and although all were taunted and I was in corner, they wouldnt approach me.

I remember very clearly that they DID stack, since that's how I completed the vet mode for the first time.

You can still stack them, it just takes a bit longer now, and with a more complicated way...

Wing

i only play a tank or healer role in dungeons, and as such:

i really enjoy running non vet low level pugs, i usually set my dungeons for ones i know are level gated to low level groups and more often then not get new players or people below level 30.

its fun and i keep them alive and enjoy the dungeon, and regardless of tank or healer am more then capable of contributing dps.


high level vet dungeons though? no thank you, they are not fun, the groups tend to be toxic. though my info might be outdated as honestly i have not run vet dungeons in ages.


as for lack of tanks overall, they are only required for vet dungeons and trials. for everything else in the game its overkill and just slowing yourself down.

why would you run 5 heavy or 40k+ hp or sets like Ebon for overland content? your going to spend 5 minutes killing a mob that a random can kill in 5 seconds, their is just no point.

and in vet dungeons and trials tanks are supposed to know the content and mechanics more so then most, why would i invite that trouble onto myself?

Athyrium93

I don't think it's just the quality of tanks that have went down, I think it's the quality of players in general. The good players are all in guilds and only run with friends, the rest of us are stuck with a lot of players that are either new/bad/don't care, I'm really not sure which.

I play a healer, and my bf plays a tank, combined we usually pull +50% plus of the damage in VET dungeons... and that's just the incidental damage we bring to the table using our support focused builds... so maybe 20k dps...

In the last dungeon I did without him I ended up having aggro about 90% of the time because our "tank" was dead, a CP810 with 13k health, no taunts that I could see, that threw a fit when I offered him food... the dps were only slightly better, but they were both around 100CP so I cut them some slack. Luckily it was just vFG so I could basically solo it on my healer...

Sir_Xalvador

I have been tanking in launch and one of the biggest problems i see with tanks now
is that that they get no guidance from any one, they think all they need to do is get the best armor or not even that just get heavy armor with no buffs for the group or damage mitigation, they think all i need to do is block and spam light attacks and maybe a little aggro... IMO, they need to learn how to tank and support the group rather then look at me i am a tank..

BeamsForDemacia

i think every role can suck in Dungeons , like there are so many fake dds that think they could clear a dungeon but get carried hard, or heals not using ele drain ….

emilyhyoyeon

the risk of awkwardly low dps in pugs is really it honestly

redspecter23

I like to think I tank reasonably well.

I avoid pug groups at all costs due to potential basement tier dps (4k is not uncommon) and various pets (Daedroth mostly these days) making tanking a miserable experience.

If that's contributing to fewer tanks in the queue, you can make of that what you will.

Jeremy

redspecter23 wrote: »

I like to think I tank reasonably well.

I avoid pug groups at all costs due to potential basement tier dps (4k is not uncommon) and various pets (Daedroth mostly these days) making tanking a miserable experience.

If that's contributing to fewer tanks in the queue, you can make of that what you will.

I do hate those Daedroth pets with a passion when I play tank. So glad to see I'm not the only one.

josiahva

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

r3turn2s3nd3r wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

3. Good tanking can make bosses so much easier, a very good example for it is the king in vDoM, u can stack them in less than 10 seconds for ez destro ults making even horrible dds to be able to pass it.

I think ZOS did sth and now King's copies cannot stack as they used to. I tried to last time I was there 1-2 months ago and although all were taunted and I was in corner, they wouldnt approach me.

I remember very clearly that they DID stack, since that's how I completed the vet mode for the first time.

You can still stack them. Cleared that way 2 weeks ago. (bunny hop when you get in the corner)

Really? I used to taunt them all and then stay at the corner, they would instantly all gather in front of me. When I did it again some time ago, although taunted, they just stood at their places. Maybe your trick will work, will give it a try next time I get there.

They can be stacked, but inner fire isnt going to do it for you...at least not alone. As a ranged ad(like all ranged ads) they have an invisible tether to you when taunted...they stay X distance away(call it 20 meters since I dont really know)....so to stack ads like that, you taunt them then run to the opposite corner...so in the end you end up running into each corner and it loosely stacks them in the middle. You can't stack these guys in 10 seconds(unless you are all-out sprinting, which is tough on your stamina after taunting all 4 of them)...but you might be able to in 15 seconds

Raudgrani

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

3. Good tanking can make bosses so much easier, a very good example for it is the king in vDoM, u can stack them in less than 10 seconds for ez destro ults making even horrible dds to be able to pass it.

I think ZOS did sth and now King's copies cannot stack as they used to. I tried to last time I was there 1-2 months ago and although all were taunted and I was in corner, they wouldnt approach me.

I remember very clearly that they DID stack, since that's how I completed the vet mode for the first time.

Mmm... They seemingly don't stack like in one 5m spot anymore, but you can line them up in a line with a couple meters between them. We did this today, and they are tightly stacked enough to all be hit by destro ulti, and even (I think) Dawnbreaker etc. It turns a 10 minute frustrating boss fight into a minute or two, as you all probably know.

MudcrabAttack

The dps ceiling has gone up since the last patch. So my theory is that players who typically play support roles are swapping to try out something new and possibly fun on DPS.

Just wait till next patch when all that DPS plummets once more, thrassian is going to die, blood for blood is going to die, lots of trial dps sets are getting clipped, bloodthirsty, shadow mundus...the list is pretty big.

Spartabunny08

It's a new player influx. Learning curve and whatnot

ToxicOutrage

People at PUGs are bad, period. I rarely get people do over 20k dmg in vet dungeons as a tank

Nestor

The last time a DD in a PUG told me I need to do more DPS with my tank was the last time I tanked for a PUG.

BTW, the next boss fight, I did not Buff the Group or Debuff the Boss and they learned real quick what a Tank does for the Group. Still blamed me for the lack of DPS.