The AoE Tests and Performance in Cyrodiil

Aedrion

Yo

This is about this post - > https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539136/update-on-cyrodiil-performance-upcoming-aoe-tests
A post where ZoS announces their plans for AoE in ESO and how they'll change them and test if performance improves.

First off, good. I'm glad we're seeing tests like this. If even one of the suggested changes leads to great performance in Cyro - great performance, not just okay or average - then I'll take it.
My dragon miniatures on my desk know that I've cursed and sworn enough to earn a special place in hell due to performance issues so if this is the way out, then we should not hesitate to take it.

That said, I'd say it's a tricky road ahead. AoE and fast paced gameplay is the core of ESO and whatever they end up doing - assuming their tests prove that performance is indeed heavily impacted by AoE spam - will change that.

Therefore I'd toss the idea out there that they should make a separation between two types of AoE. Spammable AoE and Skill-shot AoE and tweak them each differently.

Spammable AoE:
Jabs, Spin2Win, Impulse, Cleave, Radiating Regen, etc.

Anything that doesn't do much on its own and is clearly designed to be spammed for effectiveness.

These should increase in cost each time you use them to assure they remain spammable but doing so will cost you in the long run. You'll want to maximise their impact the first two times, before they become unsustainable. However, they should also be made slightly stronger to compensate (except Jabs, to the Daedra with jabs, right Templars? ). The fewer Jabs or Impulses you're landing now, should do something extra or do more damage or healing to compensate for your inability to keep casting them. Otherwise you'd smack nerfs on all AoE in exchange for performance, which cannot be the goal.

This means they'll be effective but require some skill to use. If your AoE is avoided, healed or blocked, and you run yourself dry, you deserve the punishment. Likewise, well times AoE skills would be potent for their fewer uses.

Skill-Shot AoE
Conduit, Bombard, Dawnbreaker, Shalks, Fire Breath, etc.

These are generally not spammed and should be skill shots where missing has a downside now.

These should get a 3 second cooldown per skill. So you can still chain them together but you can't spam Bombard now. You missed your target and they're not immobilised and snared? Too bad, try again in three seconds. You missed with Fire Breath, too bad. Should have aimed better. Stationary AoE skills will need to be placed more cleverly. Oops, your healing springs landed in a useless spot? You can move it, in 3 seconds.

Since this change is only for PvP, Pve won't be affected but you'll have to think just one second longer before you smack that button. Am I going to hit? Most AoE can't be dodged so if they're in your skill-range you should hit them fine. And since most of these do little initial damage - as opposed to spammable AoE - getting them blocked will generally not be that bad.

This would of course still change the landscape of PvP but if any changes to AoE help us with performance, then why would we want to continue lagging. I'd rather play a game that plays a little differently than a game that doesn't work and makes me pop enough blood vessels to create an Earthgore rain around me.

I didn't mention pulsing AoE for example because I've no idea what they'd do with that.
Please share your opinions in a civil manner (except you jabbers, am I right Templars? ;-) )

Alpheu5

I welcome a single target meta if it means I can actually cast some abilities in Cyro.

Taleof2Cities

Any reason why you can't post your ideas in the linked thread, @Aedrion??

They specifically said the tests will be performed on the Live servers ... not on PTS.

karios525

No aoe is fine, doesn't matter what you change as performance will never improve...zos gave up on cyro a long time ago despite their 'assurances' to the contrary, servers aren't properly maintained. All you are doing is flogging a dead horse,plus aoe costs at least for magicka are ridiculous as they are. Combat has been a joke since morrowind, becoming steadily worse and more unbalanced each patch.

Atherakhia

The probably can't do what you're asking.

They probably have some way to very easily make blanket changes to all AE skills in this game and it's the reason they're testing the way they've announced. It would be a quick change and something they could turn on and off like a light switch. Once they've finished their testing and determined if this is actually a problem, they're very likely going to go in and look at individual skills at that point when they have the time and resources to devote to it.

But right now they clearly just want to roll out some quick tests and get some raw data.

West93

I only play pvp and primary as a templar (stam), solo or with couple friends, I play cyrodiil everyday and now with double AP reward, I will not be able to play my class in cyrodiil because of such unfair disadvantage, not being able to use spammable even if I am fighting 1v1, while my opponent can spam dizzy swing 3 times more.

Thanks ZOS.

RogueShark

West93 wrote: »

I only play pvp and primary as a templar (stam), solo or with couple friends, I play cyrodiil everyday and now with double AP reward, I will not be able to play my class in cyrodiil because of such unfair disadvantage, not being able to use spammable even if I am fighting 1v1, while my opponent can spam dizzy swing 3 times more.

Thanks ZOS.

Just run dizzy yourself during the tests. Not optimal for stamplar compared to jabs maybe, but there's the option if you want to participate for the ap.

West93

RogueShark wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

I only play pvp and primary as a templar (stam), solo or with couple friends, I play cyrodiil everyday and now with double AP reward, I will not be able to play my class in cyrodiil because of such unfair disadvantage, not being able to use spammable even if I am fighting 1v1, while my opponent can spam dizzy swing 3 times more.

Thanks ZOS.

Just run dizzy yourself during the tests. Not optimal for stamplar compared to jabs maybe, but there's the option if you want to participate for the ap.

If I wanted to spam dizzy I would have played other class. Why I have to get shitted like this, they run 1 test for 1 week and there are 4 tests, so that means I won't be able to play a game for a whole month? Ok nice, time to cancel eso+ sub.

TequilaFire

Alpheu5 wrote: »

I welcome a single target meta if it means I can actually cast some abilities in Cyro.

Yeah, ball groups replaced with snipe spam groups. lmao

nublife01

so happy about these changes. i hate ball groups with a passion. down with the zerglings!

nublife01

TequilaFire wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

I welcome a single target meta if it means I can actually cast some abilities in Cyro.

Yeah, ball groups replaced with snipe spam groups. lmao

gotta start somewhere

TequilaFire

Sure do have to start somewhere, try plugging more server blades in.

Sugaroverdose

TequilaFire wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

I welcome a single target meta if it means I can actually cast some abilities in Cyro.

Yeah, ball groups replaced with snipe spam groups. lmao

I feel your pain

kalunte

i think cooldown would be a bad thing, but ramping stuff could fit the role.

just one thing, radiating regen isnt an aoe. it affects multiple target but isnt an aoe.

kalunte

and jabs will need some oversight, ZoS simply cant remove it from templars.

PandaPalace

They should make templar japs pure single target like flurry if they do those aoe changes

firefrosti

Yep another game to leave cause of global cooldowns creating a 5 minute fight with a lvl 1 rat , like in ff14 ?

Stridig

Groups would be trading blows every 3 seconds. Pretty dynamic combat.

Mettaricana

RogueShark wrote: »

West93 wrote: »

I only play pvp and primary as a templar (stam), solo or with couple friends, I play cyrodiil everyday and now with double AP reward, I will not be able to play my class in cyrodiil because of such unfair disadvantage, not being able to use spammable even if I am fighting 1v1, while my opponent can spam dizzy swing 3 times more.

Thanks ZOS.

Just run dizzy yourself during the tests. Not optimal for stamplar compared to jabs maybe, but there's the option if you want to participate for the ap.

Dizzy with blackrose 2 hander artificial aoe spam

katorga

nublife01 wrote: »

so happy about these changes. i hate ball groups with a passion. down with the zerglings!

These are going to make ball groups stronger.

IonicKai

katorga wrote: »

nublife01 wrote: »

so happy about these changes. i hate ball groups with a passion. down with the zerglings!

These are going to make ball groups stronger.

That was my thought too. Honestly AOE spammables are how bombers bust ball groups with VD. You take that away and there is less to stop them in the first place.

Aedrion

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Any reason why you can't post your ideas in the linked thread, @Aedrion??

They specifically said the tests will be performed on the Live servers ... not on PTS.

They're rolling out tests on PTS first. And I also think PTS forum generally talks about the future of ESO. This belongs here.
Also quite sure that thread has become an ocean of rants and unfounded, biased opinions.

karios525 wrote: »

No aoe is fine, doesn't matter what you change as performance will never improve...zos gave up on cyro a long time ago despite their 'assurances' to the contrary, servers aren't properly maintained. All you are doing is flogging a dead horse,plus aoe costs at least for magicka are ridiculous as they are. Combat has been a joke since morrowind, becoming steadily worse and more unbalanced each patch.

That's what I would have said just yesterday. But you don't write a block of text that size and undertake a venture of that scale in search of a solution if you've given up. I've given Rich "Heh" Lamberd flak for decisions in the past but this is a step in the right direction.

Atherakhia wrote: »

The probably can't do what you're asking.

They probably have some way to very easily make blanket changes to all AE skills in this game and it's the reason they're testing the way they've announced. It would be a quick change and something they could turn on and off like a light switch. Once they've finished their testing and determined if this is actually a problem, they're very likely going to go in and look at individual skills at that point when they have the time and resources to devote to it.

But right now they clearly just want to roll out some quick tests and get some raw data.

Their Test Option 4 is literally my suggestion. Do both, but select on a skill per skill basis how you roll it out. Is it likely they'll roll it out sloppy and break half the game, yes. Is it possible they roll this out and things actually improve. Also yes. I'm taking my optimism pills and assuming the latter, given the titanic effort involved.

West93 wrote: »

I only play pvp and primary as a templar (stam), solo or with couple friends, I play cyrodiil everyday and now with double AP reward, I will not be able to play my class in cyrodiil because of such unfair disadvantage, not being able to use spammable even if I am fighting 1v1, while my opponent can spam dizzy swing 3 times more.

Thanks ZOS.

I feel ya, I will not be able to use my Spin2Win, Blade Cloak, Hurricane in a row and some of the AoE changes would shaft my build but what's the alternative? Loiter in lag-o-diil forever? Because if ZoS doesn't commit time effort and testing to improving the game, it won't matter if you can Jab AoE or not. You'll still die in lag and desyncs. I'll take a month of random nonsense over years more of a broken game.

kalunte wrote: »

i think cooldown would be a bad thing, but ramping stuff could fit the role.

just one thing, radiating regen isnt an aoe. it affects multiple target but isnt an aoe.

and jabs will need some oversight, ZoS simply cant remove it from templars.

Every time you use it, it checks a radius around you, selects healing-prio targets and then runs the effect. It's an AoE buddy, sorry. But granted, this skill would need to become far more reliable if they added a stacking cost or cooldown to it.

And yes, Jabs, Impulse, Spin2Win, every spammable AoE would need a complete revise. You can't just slap a cost increase on them or a CD and call it quits. You're nerfing the skills in a way - for performance, not balance but result is the same - so you need to give something back to even it out.

nublife01 wrote: »

so happy about these changes. i hate ball groups with a passion. down with the zerglings!

Ball groups will probably get nuked to oblivion with this unless they're expert at timing their AoE's to blow up people. Which can still happen. Zerglings are uncoordinated groups of people outnumbering their oponents spamming proc sets and light attacks, zergs will be affected less. In fact, they might be harder to kill with less potent AoE. All depends on how ZOS does it. Honestly, I can't predict it too much. Zergs also rely on Radiating Regen spam and AoE heals and support so maybe... one can hope.

kalunte

if you think that an ability that checks range is an aoe then every single thing in the game is an aoe. hitting multiple target is not aoe.

kalunte

breath of life could be considered as an aoe to, that's what i mean regarding your standards.

katorga

If an ability is a single target ability that has an area component and has no cast time.

Well RIP mag sorc, almost everything even their armor buff meets this condition, lol.

BlastBones and sub assault, instant cast aoe, but with a delay?

What about proc sets like overwhelming surge, grothdar or Hiti's, a huge number of damage, healing and tanking proc sets have aoe radius effects?

What about force pulse, single target, instant with a "splash" aoe condition?

2H light and heavy attack splash damage?

What about skills that "Bounce" to multiple targets?

NB lotus fan gap closer?

What about skills like Deaden Pain or Repentance that find corpses in a radius?

Man, they are going to have redesign almost every skill and every class in the game from the ground up. Most of them are going to be useless after this. Not to mention, hey, let's throw this in mid-PTS, and see what happens. The number of bugs are going to be astronomical.

nk125x

It took me exactly 5 minutes (sitting in the throne) to figure out how ball groups would get around this and I ain't the smartest kid on the block.
The GCD is 1 second - That means 2 extra skills can be fired in the 1st skill cooldown. - Simple, every member of the ball group has an aoe, a heal and purge. Now everybody rotates around those 3 skills. In a 12 man group if everything is timed correctly the group will fire 4 aoe's/4 heals and 4 purges every second whilst abusing the proc set meta.
This to me seams like it wont help the lag.

stefj68

whats the point of getting ap on the test server? does it carries to lives?

katorga

nk125x wrote: »

It took me exactly 5 minutes (sitting in the throne) to figure out how ball groups would get around this and I ain't the smartest kid on the block.
The GCD is 1 second - That means 2 extra skills can be fired in the 1st skill cooldown. - Simple, every member of the ball group has an aoe, a heal and purge. Now everybody rotates around those 3 skills. In a 12 man group if everything is timed correctly the group will fire 4 aoe's/4 heals and 4 purges every second whilst abusing the proc set meta.
This to me seams like it wont help the lag.

That was my take too. Only large groups will be able efficiently use aoe skills like HotD, radiating regen, spin2win.

And yeah, throw in the proc meta.....going to be a zerg paradise.

Just how many proc sets are aoe based? Just think about the conditional calculations required for Venomous Smite or Hiti's? But hey, lets ignore those, add a whole bunch more of them, and start mucking around with the core game mechanics.

VaranisArano

stefj68 wrote: »

whats the point of getting ap on the test server? does it carries to lives?

The tests are happening on the Live server. Might want to reread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539136/update-on-cyrodiil-performance-upcoming-aoe-tests/p1

Yajnho

kalunte wrote: »

breath of life could be considered as an aoe to, that's what i mean regarding your standards.

Well since breath of life was specifically mentioned in the patch notes as an example...

Almost all healing in this game is AOE. Most of the heals check the players in an AREA, either a circle or a cone, and tries to prioritizes who gets the healing.

Other skills heal everyone (Which I would guess is what you are considering an AOE) but may heal more or provide other buffs if certain criteria are met.

I would guess the average heal skill is more stressful to the server than the average dps skill.

To be fair, truly targeted healing would be pretty difficult in this game. The combat is fast and fairly chaotic, even in a lot of PVE. This is why “smart healing” exists. But when you get a ball of 50 people spamming smart heals every 3-5 casts it makes for a lot of calculations.

vestahls

None of the proposed changes, if found effective, would negatively impact PVP. It takes 3 seconds for skills to go off as it is, nobody will notice the difference.