Update on Cyrodiil Performance & Upcoming AOE Tests

ad4mss

I just would like to remind that these changes are for testing and data gathering purposes.

So please hold on with all this complaints until ZOS will do their analysis and provide results and next steps.

I know it's so easy to qq and complain before anything happens as we players knows this game better than dev team at ZOS and of course we know that things to be done described by Rich will remain in the game permanently even if there was no single word about this. For sake, let them do their job, provide results and further actions to be taken and then start crying if such changes will need to stay permanent.

Few weeks with such temporary adjustments won't kill you. Your brutal, muscular, deadly heroes will finally have opportunity to dive into deep exploration of Tamriel, complete uncompleted achievements, do some crafting writs, do some quests or finally go out of your houses and enjoy your life's!

ealdwin

maxjapank wrote: »

What a nightmare for a Templar’s during these tests as our main spammable, Sweeps, is aoe.

Just imagine if these changes make it beyond the testing period and permanently into live. Avoiding Cyrodiil for a few weeks on my Templars, ok. I'll live.

But if the changes stay, and if they have an effect on PVE?

Rune Focus, Blazing Spear, Puncturing Sweeps/Biting Jabs, Extended Ritual, potentially Solar Barrage, Elemental Blockade, Barrage. These are all AOE skills that I use in nearly every aspect of PVE on my main, and each option would absolutely wreck havoc on how they are used.

1. Global Cooldowns - That would mean a 3 second period between being able to use any of those abilities. Standard Templar PVE dps rotations would be destroyed. (Just look at Alcast's for reference). Not to mention, what exactly are healers supposed to do? Half their bar is AOE, at least.

2. Individual Cooldowns - Less of an impact on the AOE dots. But for Templars whose main spammable is AOE, what are they supposed to do? Not use the spammable as a ... spammable? So, there's PVE dps rotations for Templars, again, ruined, forcing them to use generic spammables, and class skill merely going to waste. (And a fun interesting one at that.). I thought the whole point of the past few patches was to improve class identity. This. This option would only continue to ruin it for Templars.

3. Ramping AOE Cost - There goes sustain for any AOE spec in pve. Healers, AOE dps; all will see significant dps loss. And Templars, again, this would force them away from using several significant skills in their arsenal, including their spammable, or leave them with horrible sustain issues.

4. Sigh.... Just. No. This option would just kill Templars. Our spammable would be unusable as a spammable and standard dps rotations would become resource black holes. Just. No.

LuxLunae

Dottzgaming wrote: »

This unfortunately will probably get a "positive" performance result. Combat is going to slow down to a grinding hault, so performance will improve since people will be playing the game at a significantly slower speed.

ESO's hallmark feature is it's combat speed and fluidity, especially for PvP. Cooldowns shouldn't be introduced into a system that was fundamentally designed to not have them. Period.

The CP system wasnt fundemental in the initial game design and yet it's still there....hmm..

Larcomar

Seems odd to target jabs. I mean, it's used mainly for single target in cyro from what I see. But just use crushing shock instead.

Anything that tackles ball groups gets a big thumbs up in my book. I'd be happy if AOE's were disabled in cyro and heals just affected you.

metabLast3r

From an IT admin, field representative standpoint, scaling for more software processing demand and the number of people utilizing a product:

Company complains of end users reporting slow performance; Company speaks with IT/Network/Administration teams on how this could be fixed. Response should be easy due to this product brings in MONEY for YOU/COMPANY, progressively scaling server performance to handle as the environment/userbase grows. Frankly I feel like a system model is not being followed or ignored to squeeze "something" out of customers. I don't know what that is, but you're going to end up with new people wanting to try this game that will develop the same complaints over time.

buttaface

Something in the realm of "3" is the likely solution that wouldn't ruin the game. Moreover, there many aoe skills that could do with a hard CD without ruining game play, some could not of course.

Sanguinor2

Firstmep wrote: »

I guess ill just play a ranged plar during the test spamming dark flare from keep walls, looks like all other options for the class are removed

You can use javelin as spammable , procs burning light and ignores resistances

Kungfu

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Thanks for being patient and understanding with these tests. They are extremely important for the team and will help us work towards improving Cyrodiil performance.

Rich,
THANK YOU!

I hope you can ignore the knee-jerk reaction in these forums and stay positive that your work is GREATLY APPRECIATED by those of us who see the long game.

I do expect 3 seconds to be quite a long time and would hope to see that maybe we can get down to 2s. But... if it cleans up performance in Cyro, many of us will just learn how to play with the new rules and we will understand that, with this new foundation of performance, more good changes will come in the future.

Dyngrin

I completely agree with this post and the planned analysis and direction ZOS is heading with AOEs. In the best previous MMOs, AOEs were meant to be rare (not spammable) but powerful. Why? Because they would hit many targets, were easily stackable by other players, and yet required the least skill (no single targeting).

If the changes to AOEs that make it to live greatly reduce server lag, then that alone would justify those changes.

--Dyn

Sandman929

No one is targetting jabs or Templars specifically, it's just that, as usual, solutions aren't thought out very well.

Madhatten512

So can someone from ZOS explain to me what a stamina templar is supposed to do with a 3 second cooldown on AOEs???? When its class ultimate is an AOE, its spamable is an AOE, and the other option for ultimate dawnbreaker is an AOE?? Just hope the person i used my ultimate decides not to heal for 3 seconds.. How about attacking the actual issue here which is ball groups and faction stacks.. Lower group size, limit all healing and buffs to only effect group memebers.. Give rapid regen the vigor treatment its stupid that vigor no longer stacks, but rapid regen does anyway. Lets try some of this before you completely ruin the combat system anymore than you already have with ult cast times, and the assault on animation canceling thats happened every patch for the last year or so.. There has to be a better way than ruining combat.

halucin0g3n

The problem is not that there are too many AOE skills. The problem is the engine. Fix the engine because it's weak. Imagine games like Warzone allowing you to only shoot 1 bullet every second. Sorry @ZOS_RichLambert but this sounds just lazy. It might fix the problem on the surface, but on the long run it will only cause troubles.

AbraXuSeXile

Launch till lighting patch was smooth, are you trying to say the lighting patch everyone suddenly learned how to spam aoe constantly during the patch downtime?

I spammed more crap at launch with my seducer warlock than i do now.

Everest_Lionheart

Please, no.

Solo PvE’r here. If my AOE’s are locked into global cool down you have made my ability to complete certain content completely impossible. AOE is the name of the game regardless of class here when trying to slice and dice my way through pledges and farm public dungeons for hours to not get a single decent piece of gear to drop.

Most people here are going straight to Templar, which is an AOE machine as an example. But it hurts other solo classes as well. My Stamwarden relies on AOE to survive some of these. Gripping shards, endless hail, steel tornado, sub assault, leeching vines. I’m progressing this particular solo toon to clearing vet 4man content alone. Gimping the AOE’s like any of this kills that option.

I’ve got my MagDK for trials as well. She’s also gonna get hit by the gimp machine. Fortunately her AOE’s last super long and the spamable can more easily be broken up to recast an AOE, but I also solo this toon through pledges daily and with AOE gimped that severely hampers the content I can clear.

Please find a better way.

Inarre

Templar = Machinist

Set up siege. Its your only hope.

kalunte

i'm all in for ramping aoe cost let's make jabs be a single target ability with spalsh dmg and they will be fine ^^

LoreToo

As a ball group leader and beta-monkey: we cant use AOEs (and not aoes) in prime time(eu) faster then every 3 seconds cause server laggin so hard last 3-3.5 years. Absolutly nothin to worry about

DUTCH_REAPER

THE CHANGES ARENT GOING INTO PVE ITS PVP CYRO ONLY!! PLKEASE READ BEFORE YOU COMMENT GUYS

red_emu

I also assume, that if the changes end up going live, we receive 'class change tokens' equal to the amount of Templar characters on the account?

I mean, even if you change the rule set of every single Templar skill, it will no longer be the class that we invested time and real money in. Yes, real money. If Templar is what floats your boat in this game and makes you come back and spend your cash in clown store, that is a RL investment.

It would be like buying a 2020 Porche, then dealer swapping it for a new Jeep.
Both cars are cool and expensive but you didn't want to drive a Jeep when you bought your Porche.

Please consider class change tokens if you plan to make PvP into a turn-based game.

PrimusNephilim

So in short, our severs can't handle the load, so we're going to nerf the combat system even more and buff the cooldown count

This is just putting another bandaid over older bandaids

Remember sometime last year when they rolled out the new changes to the combat system, obviously those failed to work and now this.

This is your typical corporate business model: lets not fix the route of the problem because that will cost too much money, lets just keep bandaiding this beast till it dies. We are witnessing the slow demise of Elder Scrolls Online and that's a shame.

Sincerely,
A Devoted Fan

Sandman929

Madhatten512 wrote: »

So can someone from ZOS explain to me what a stamina templar is supposed to do with a 3 second cooldown on AOEs???? When its class ultimate is an AOE, its spamable is an AOE, and the other option for ultimate dawnbreaker is an AOE?? Just hope the person i used my ultimate decides not to heal for 3 seconds.. How about attacking the actual issue here which is ball groups and faction stacks.. Lower group size, limit all healing and buffs to only effect group memebers.. Give rapid regen the vigor treatment its stupid that vigor no longer stacks, but rapid regen does anyway. Lets try some of this before you completely ruin the combat system anymore than you already have with ult cast times, and the assault on animation canceling thats happened every patch for the last year or so.. There has to be a better way than ruining combat.

This...so many suggestions from the community have been made that don't cripple solo play or require a complete overhaul of so many skills (which will be needed if any sort of AOE cooldown is settled on as a solution).

Idinuse

ealdwin wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

What a nightmare for a Templar’s during these tests as our main spammable, Sweeps, is aoe.

Just imagine if these changes make it beyond the testing period and permanently into live. Avoiding Cyrodiil for a few weeks on my Templars, ok. I'll live.

But if the changes stay, and if they have an effect on PVE?

Rune Focus, Blazing Spear, Puncturing Sweeps/Biting Jabs, Extended Ritual, potentially Solar Barrage, Elemental Blockade, Barrage. These are all AOE skills that I use in nearly every aspect of PVE on my main, and each option would absolutely wreck havoc on how they are used.

1. Global Cooldowns - That would mean a 3 second period between being able to use any of those abilities. Standard Templar PVE dps rotations would be destroyed. (Just look at Alcast's for reference). Not to mention, what exactly are healers supposed to do? Half their bar is AOE, at least.

2. Individual Cooldowns - Less of an impact on the AOE dots. But for Templars whose main spammable is AOE, what are they supposed to do? Not use the spammable as a ... spammable? So, there's PVE dps rotations for Templars, again, ruined, forcing them to use generic spammables, and class skill merely going to waste. (And a fun interesting one at that.). I thought the whole point of the past few patches was to improve class identity. This. This option would only continue to ruin it for Templars.

3. Ramping AOE Cost - There goes sustain for any AOE spec in pve. Healers, AOE dps; all will see significant dps loss. And Templars, again, this would force them away from using several significant skills in their arsenal, including their spammable, or leave them with horrible sustain issues.

4. Sigh.... Just. No. This option would just kill Templars. Our spammable would be unusable as a spammable and standard dps rotations would become resource black holes. Just. No.

I would be happy if my skills only took 3 seconds to cast in Cyrodiil now to begin with...lol So we're taking the lag and making it into a feature. Brilliant! ^^b

FlaviusPK

Hah.. I thought it was some joke before got to this thread. Well... super thin ice you're walking on, guys.

GoodFella146

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a bug where nobody could group in Cyrodiil? Then coincidentally a lot of these issues magically weren't happening?

Idinuse

Kungfu wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Thanks for being patient and understanding with these tests. They are extremely important for the team and will help us work towards improving Cyrodiil performance.

Rich,
THANK YOU!

I hope you can ignore the knee-jerk reaction in these forums and stay positive that your work is GREATLY APPRECIATED by those of us who see the long game.

I do expect 3 seconds to be quite a long time and would hope to see that maybe we can get down to 2s. But... if it cleans up performance in Cyro, many of us will just learn how to play with the new rules and we will understand that, with this new foundation of performance, more good changes will come in the future.

"[T]hose of us that see the long game" lol, we saw it 6 years ago, it's getting old by now.

Sugaroverdose

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Specific details on the tests we will be running in Cyrodiil are as follows:

• Test 1 – Shared global AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds a global 3 second shared cooldown to any AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast another for 3 seconds. For example, as a Templar, if I cast Ritual of Retribution, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep for 3 seconds.
• Test 2 – Individual AOE cooldown - 3 second timer. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each AOE ability. This means that when you cast an AOE, you will not be able to cast that same AOE ability for 3 seconds. For example – as a Templar, if I cast Puncturing Sweep, I wouldn’t be able to cast Puncturing Sweep again for 3 seconds.
• Test 3 – No cooldown, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds a global ramping AOE cost for each AOE cast. Similar to how streak or roll dodge works, where when you cast an AOE you receive a debuff for 5 seconds, each stack of the debuff increases the cost of any AOE cast.
• Test 4 – Individual AOE cooldown – 3 second timer, global ramping AOE cost. This test adds an individual AOE cooldown to each ability as in test 2, but also combines that with a global ramping cost from test 3.

During the times that any of these tests are active, we will be awarding double Alliance Points for anyone active in Cyrodiil.

Is this some kind of stupid joke or something? Magplar is literally completely built around AoE dot/hot that's how you designed it, what the f should they do in PvP?

Dumbest test for crappiest fix

zaria

Ode2Order wrote: »

Sounds like you found the root of the problem! Well done! I'm happy to see you communicate clearly about how to move forward from this point, and I hope it will bring us to a solution (:

H o w e v e r
The constant loading screen issue also exists in Craglorn, where it is arguably even worse (sometimes can't even catch a breather to teleport OUT of there). There are no issues with skill casting, as I doubt there are that many AOEs being spammed there, but obviously I don't have the numbers. The issue sometimes even persists in Craglorn trials, mostly in Aetherian Archive (from anecdotal experience). What I would like to ask is if you could look into that zone as well please?

Thank you for trying to make this a better game with good performance!

Yes noticed that doing surveys. Now Craglorn is not an very populated zone but an hub for pug trials.
But trials should be in their own instances who does not be on the same server as the Craglorn instance(s)
On the other hand people get performance issues in vMA during Orsinium events.

Tommy_The_Gun

I can not believe my eyes...

ZOS.... After all those years... you are actually, finally doing it...
... You are trying to fix Cyrodiil...

First of all I appreciate the you are being honest & open with us and saying that strait away - that you were unable to fix it, and servers / game code can't handle the current game.

But - it does not feel like a best or great solution though. More like "choosing lesser evil".

I understand that some people have "fun" in playing in a group and using a lot of AOEs. Everybody likes something and I respect that. The problem though is that because of how game works & how its code works, the more groups (Ball groups) spam AOEs... it causes a side effect of other players not being able to react, not because of their low response time, but because their skills stop working, they can not drink potions, swap bars, break free etc. Basically - they are almost kicked from server as soon as Ball groups shows up.

Now will it be the end of "large scale group play" ? Of course not. Some abilities will be replaced with others, play style will change, people will adapt. Also, it will be more "fair" since other players won't lag-out of the game, and they will (hopefully) be able to react.

My only hope is that we will still be able to use some abilities that have AOE aspect added to them, but it is not their primary function. Streak and Lotus Fan are good examples. Both are mobility / gap closers, but they have AOE effect on them.
I hope It won't mean we will have essential skills on 3 second cooldown - but it will simply mean that AOE effect will be missing on them if we cast them more quickly.

MCBIZZLE300

I'd rather have the lag than zos ruin combat completely with cooldowns.

vestahls

Worst thing is the whole PVE playerbase, aka the majority, will have to bite it as a result of the inevitable adjustments. All because PVP groups decided cramming as many AOEs in as short a time as possible was good gameplay.