Proc set meta demonstration

kalunte

i dont know this set very well, does it fire an aoe like infernal guardians or is it a straight single targeted bolt?

Firstmep

As I have already pointed out countless times, making procsets be instead extra abilities that scale with stats the same as our skills would easily fix these issues.
But alas they are hell bent on these sets giving tons of free dmg, and then have to go back to rebalance them all the time.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

This is great! The CP100 dude in my BG's will actually do some damage!

No. This shouldn't be as free as it is. Stop removing the skill out of pvp.

Nemesis7884

consequence will - once again be - sets get nerfed into the ground and unusable in pve because of complaints from pvp and nothing changes or becomes more diverse / more interesting

relentless_turnip

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

consequence will - once again be - sets get nerfed into the ground and unusable in pve because of complaints from pvp and nothing changes or becomes more diverse / more interesting

I think most, my myself included would like to see something put in place to limit their effectiveness only in a PvP environment. I am glad that they seem to be an adequate substitute for high APM.

Perhaps if they did as others suggested and make the proc scale in the same way skills do. That is to say with offensive stats like max magicka, stamina, WD or spd. I would like the current numbers to be at the top end of the stat pool though. Or lower them to a spammable level and allow them to crit outside of a PvP environment.

auz

Lol. If you are using caluurions or venomous smite in pve you need to rethink your life. Or at least buy a calculator.

FrankonPC

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I'm actually a fan of "Isth3reno1else".

What is exactly the point of this demonstration? He just proved that a good/chees dueling build will win vs an open world 1vsX/group build.

Hi!

This is not a dueling build. I killed him with light attacks. I have more mag sustain, survival and damage than a currently good open world outnumbered build in Greymoor. In the video I talk about how I could add more resistances and even more health while also being able to sustain. I'm pretty confident I could be a stage 3 vamp as well with undeath for all of the sustain I have. Keep in mind the person I am dueling is a magden, which is currently one of the best survival classes in the game. Proc sets not always lining up weren't an issue killing him, they won't be an issue for the vast majority of classes you face in this game.

Typically open world builds have some combination of survival and burst...this is just better in every way.

FrankonPC

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

He makes a much better argument against health-based healing and damage than he does against proc sets. The long cooldowns on the procs are going to prevent the procs from stacking together sufficiently to kill anyone that's even a little bit tanky.

They kind of go hand in hand. I am under the assumption that the health based heals are the means for every class to tank in PVE. Although I'm not a huge fan of the scaling that health based heals provide, I understand why it's there. I think adjusting proc sets so you can't have both makes the most sense.

FrankonPC

katorga wrote: »

[snip]

Meh. Why complain? There is a meta. It changes on a pretty predictable cycle. ZOS loves wholesale meta shifts. Some class/builds thrive in a meta, some don't. Adapting to it is half the fun of the game.

There are the proc and crit builds that will be monsters, but calurrions+Icy+LA isn't it.

[edited to remove quote]

Not a complaint. This is raising concerns on the PTS. That's what the PTS is for, no?

I don't think a lot of players realize how drastic a shift the meta will be when all of these proc sets get buffed and malacath becomes more common. Imagine being a new player, just getting your first set of PvP gear and struggling with the mechanics of open world. Then 3 weeks later, when you finally start getting a handle on things, the entire meta shifts rendering your build obsolete. I don't think that's a good plan for retention.

FrankonPC

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

consequence will - once again be - sets get nerfed into the ground and unusable in pve because of complaints from pvp and nothing changes or becomes more diverse / more interesting

this sort of thing keeps running around the forums but a few things:

1. That's what battle spirit is for, so that pve and pvp don't intertwine. Blaming PVE'ers or PvP'ers for nerfs when there's a system in place for separate adjustments doesn't make any sense.

2. There have been plenty of nerfs on the pve side that have impacted pvp as well. Namely the great damage and sustain that Mag dk has in a trial setting that made them the best dps a few patches ago, but their damage in pvp has been constantly nerfed and they struggle in that department when they weren't great there to begin with.

There's always adjustments in each part of this game, but the rule set that is there to keep them separate isn't always employed. THIS is what you should be annoyed about, imo.

katorga

Firstmep wrote: »

As I have already pointed out countless times, making procsets be instead extra abilities that scale with stats the same as our skills would easily fix these issues.
But alas they are hell bent on these sets giving tons of free dmg, and then have to go back to rebalance them all the time.

ZOS sort of balanced the proc sets at the base tooltip. They are all ~2K per second. The old sets below 2K are being buff up, like Sheer Venom, and the ones above 2K are being nerfed down (i.e. I expect venomous smite to get the unleashed terror treatment).

One could make an argument that everyone is mistaken and something else entirely is going to be the meta.

the1andonlyskwex

FrankonPC wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

He makes a much better argument against health-based healing and damage than he does against proc sets. The long cooldowns on the procs are going to prevent the procs from stacking together sufficiently to kill anyone that's even a little bit tanky.

They kind of go hand in hand. I am under the assumption that the health based heals are the means for every class to tank in PVE. Although I'm not a huge fan of the scaling that health based heals provide, I understand why it's there. I think adjusting proc sets so you can't have both makes the most sense.

Reducing health based healing would probably help make healers more relevant/important in dungeon content. It would also help shift healers back into actually healing instead of just being buff-bots for DPS. I think all of that would actually improve PvE.

Faulgor

casparian wrote: »

One of the best points Else makes is that the big difference between now and our previous proc meta(s) is that now, all classes have healing/defense abilities that scale on max health. This means that the previous drawback to using proc sets -- reduced healing -- no longer applies.

ZOS hates builds that have both huge tankiness and huge damage. This buff to proc sets, in the context of widespread health-based heals, will just make high-damage tank builds even more accessible and widespread.

This is a bad move.

Well, all except Templars.
Or do people want to tell me Sun Shield is a viable skill, in PvP or PvE?

Nemesis7884

FrankonPC wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

consequence will - once again be - sets get nerfed into the ground and unusable in pve because of complaints from pvp and nothing changes or becomes more diverse / more interesting

this sort of thing keeps running around the forums but a few things:

1. That's what battle spirit is for, so that pve and pvp don't intertwine. Blaming PVE'ers or PvP'ers for nerfs when there's a system in place for separate adjustments doesn't make any sense.

2. There have been plenty of nerfs on the pve side that have impacted pvp as well. Namely the great damage and sustain that Mag dk has in a trial setting that made them the best dps a few patches ago, but their damage in pvp has been constantly nerfed and they struggle in that department when they weren't great there to begin with.

There's always adjustments in each part of this game, but the rule set that is there to keep them separate isn't always employed. THIS is what you should be annoyed about, imo.

lol youre kidding? most of the nerfs in recent months/years have ALL been due to pvp whining and pve suffered for it - look at bloodspawn as just one example

WrathOfInnos

Lughlongarm wrote: »

You think "Unleashed"

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I'm actually a fan of "Isth3reno1else".

What is exactly the point of this demonstration? He just proved that a good/chees dueling build will win vs an open world 1vsX/group build.

If dueling is our base of reference , pre-patch "Meridia's Blessed Armor" is the most insane set we have in the game.

We need to talk about proc sets the same way we talk about non proc set. per set Specifically and in a wider context.

I do agree for example that "Caluurion's Legacy" should proc on crits. Not sure why they removed it. It is part of the set identity and it's not a "%" thing which effect server performance.

Regarding the performance "Malacath's Band of Brutality" + proc sets, it should be examined. I don't have enough data to from an opinion.

Ok, on the topic of talking Specifically about problematic proc sets on PTS.

"Shadow of the Red Mountain" - With a simple weapon skill dot, it will proc on CD every 2 sec, dealing 6k(no cp, no Malacath's )every proc. This proc set is making the other proc sets look very innocent.

I doubt it. Procs are not interacting well with DoT ticks on the same cooldown. If you use something like Rending Slashes to proc this it will likely work the first time, then have a 50/50 chance of working on the next tick 2s later. If you look at the effect over time, it ends up being 2/3 the strength of the tooltip. Check out this thread for more info:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6873661#Comment_6873661

Lughlongarm

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

You think "Unleashed"

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I'm actually a fan of "Isth3reno1else".

What is exactly the point of this demonstration? He just proved that a good/chees dueling build will win vs an open world 1vsX/group build.

If dueling is our base of reference , pre-patch "Meridia's Blessed Armor" is the most insane set we have in the game.

We need to talk about proc sets the same way we talk about non proc set. per set Specifically and in a wider context.

I do agree for example that "Caluurion's Legacy" should proc on crits. Not sure why they removed it. It is part of the set identity and it's not a "%" thing which effect server performance.

Regarding the performance "Malacath's Band of Brutality" + proc sets, it should be examined. I don't have enough data to from an opinion.

Ok, on the topic of talking Specifically about problematic proc sets on PTS.

"Shadow of the Red Mountain" - With a simple weapon skill dot, it will proc on CD every 2 sec, dealing 6k(no cp, no Malacath's )every proc. This proc set is making the other proc sets look very innocent.

I doubt it. Procs are not interacting well with DoT ticks on the same cooldown. If you use something like Rending Slashes to proc this it will likely work the first time, then have a 50/50 chance of working on the next tick 2s later. If you look at the effect over time, it ends up being 2/3 the strength of the tooltip. Check out this thread for more info:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6873661#Comment_6873661

Interesting. I have not checked it on "combat metrics" but from what i could tell, it proced every 2 sec. The animation is very big and hard to miss. When you see the volcano appearing back to back is quite hilarious.

SORjosh

I miss the proc meta from back in the day. Fasalla's guile / Viper / Tremorscale. Loads of salty tears about that build lol. It would melt folks.

Lughlongarm

FrankonPC wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I'm actually a fan of "Isth3reno1else".

What is exactly the point of this demonstration? He just proved that a good/chees dueling build will win vs an open world 1vsX/group build.

Hi!

This is not a dueling build. I killed him with light attacks. I have more mag sustain, survival and damage than a currently good open world outnumbered build in Greymoor. In the video I talk about how I could add more resistances and even more health while also being able to sustain. I'm pretty confident I could be a stage 3 vamp as well with undeath for all of the sustain I have. Keep in mind the person I am dueling is a magden, which is currently one of the best survival classes in the game. Proc sets not always lining up weren't an issue killing him, they won't be an issue for the vast majority of classes you face in this game.

Typically open world builds have some combination of survival and burst...this is just better in every way.

Thank you for the feedback and the video. It was very insightful in spite of my criticism.
I referred it as "dueling build" because all of the 3 proc sets you equipped are single target and dodgable and work much better in a short to medium range. Not sure how this setup would have worked in keep like battle, 1vsx, or even how will it preform vs a dodgy stamina NB, a long range magicka sorc, stamcro that can shut down your healing etc....

I don't think Magden is the go to toon to evaluate dueling power. Especially on the open world meta setup build. Also, high HP heavy attack builds are a thing, shouldn't be that surprising that also LA builds could be a thing.

I do agree however that on PTS, some proc sets greatly over-perfom compared to other proc sets. So ya, porc sets should be evaluated on a set to set basis.

Kadoin

SORjosh wrote: »

I miss the proc meta from back in the day. Fasalla's guile / Viper / Tremorscale. Loads of salty tears about that build lol. It would melt folks.

Don't worry, you'll be able to do something similar next patch if things stay as they are

danthemann5

Kadoin wrote: »

SORjosh wrote: »

I miss the proc meta from back in the day. Fasalla's guile / Viper / Tremorscale. Loads of salty tears about that build lol. It would melt folks.

Don't worry, you'll be able to do something similar next patch if things stay as they are

Have a look at the new and "improved" Plague Slinger / Red Mountain / Maw of the Infernal

Joxer61

i know this isnt GW2 but that game has separate "procs", if you will, for pvp and pve. Something on a piece or gear or weapon will work for one but not the other, depending what you are playing. Saves having so many different sets and having to swap out gear if you go from one to the other.
I dunno, it worked, but, it is a different game so this might just be dead air.....but its a thought.

FrankonPC

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

lol youre kidding? most of the nerfs in recent months/years have ALL been due to pvp whining and pve suffered for it - look at bloodspawn as just one example

I am not kidding, and that's a poor example. A large portion of the pvp community wanted bloodspawn as it was.

Also, Thrassian was JUST nerfed because of how powerful they are in a trial situation. Are you still going to stand by that "all" claim?

FrankonPC

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Thank you for the feedback and the video. It was very insightful in spite of my criticism.
I referred it as "dueling build" because all of the 3 proc sets you equipped are single target and dodgable and work much better in a short to medium range. Not sure how this setup would have worked in keep like battle, 1vsx, or even how will it preform vs a dodgy stamina NB, a long range magicka sorc, stamcro that can shut down your healing etc....

I don't think Magden is the go to toon to evaluate dueling power. Especially on the open world meta setup build. Also, high HP heavy attack builds are a thing, shouldn't be that surprising that also LA builds could be a thing.

I do agree however that on PTS, some proc sets greatly over-perfom compared to other proc sets. So ya, porc sets should be evaluated on a set to set basis.

No worries, I just wanted to explain where I was coming from. Most of my builds on my channel are all single target. I just find them more enjoyable to play than aoe. That's not really possible on a class like magden since their entire kit IS aoe, but I was still able to make this effective. For me the single target is preferred. Ele drain my target to proc icy, weapon swap, hit deep fissure then light attack and hit force pulse. There's a good chance I'll have maw out by then, caluurions is guaranteed to proc on my la and will land around the same time as my fissure. Force pulse will land shortly after.

If the light attacks and procs are so much damage that an armor master magden can't survive, I'm going to burst most people with that combination. This isn't a light attack build so much as it's a build showing how powerful procs are by light attacking.

Mayrael

[snip] Those changes to proc sets are in general illogical, remember when they slightly adjusted Selene, velidreth and Skoria because of easy proc conditions etc.etc. and now they do this? Buff some proc sets by 150%? Is this how you balance things? ZOS do you think it will help to raise the floor? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Nemesis7884

FrankonPC wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

lol youre kidding? most of the nerfs in recent months/years have ALL been due to pvp whining and pve suffered for it - look at bloodspawn as just one example

I am not kidding, and that's a poor example. A large portion of the pvp community wanted bloodspawn as it was.

Also, Thrassian was JUST nerfed because of how powerful they are in a trial situation. Are you still going to stand by that "all" claim?

ok other example
proc sets dont crit - i guess that was also a change "a large portion of the community wanted"

WrathOfInnos

@Lughlongarm Yep, just confirmed on PTS, Red Mountain works just as poorly as all the other proc sets with a cooldown equal to the time between DoT ticks. 6 ticks of Rending (well 7, but the first 2 were simultaneous), each spaced 2s, and Red Mountain only procced 4 times.



There's some RNG here. It's possible for it to get 6 procs out of 6 ticks, just very rare. It could also proc as few as 3 times from a cast of Rending.

Saubon

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

consequence will - once again be - sets get nerfed into the ground and unusable in pve because of complaints from pvp and nothing changes or becomes more diverse / more interesting

this sort of thing keeps running around the forums but a few things:

1. That's what battle spirit is for, so that pve and pvp don't intertwine. Blaming PVE'ers or PvP'ers for nerfs when there's a system in place for separate adjustments doesn't make any sense.

2. There have been plenty of nerfs on the pve side that have impacted pvp as well. Namely the great damage and sustain that Mag dk has in a trial setting that made them the best dps a few patches ago, but their damage in pvp has been constantly nerfed and they struggle in that department when they weren't great there to begin with.

There's always adjustments in each part of this game, but the rule set that is there to keep them separate isn't always employed. THIS is what you should be annoyed about, imo.

lol youre kidding? most of the nerfs in recent months/years have ALL been due to pvp whining and pve suffered for it - look at bloodspawn as just one example

This is bad example, bloodspawn was really bad monster set for PvE even pre-nerf.

Vaoh

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

The issue, in my opinion, isn't malacath but how proc sets function. There are 4 reasons in my eyes that make proc sets difficult to balance. This is coming exclusively from a pvp standpoint and as a pvp content creator I am weary of these changes. I will explain why and my suggested solutions that I hope will keep the sets being useful but not oppresisve.

Problem 1 - proc sets not being on the global cooldown.

As proc sets are essentially off the global cooldown you can land 3 or 4 damage sources at once easily with just 1 skill and if you're on a class with a delayed burst skill like warden then it goes up. For example you could simply do deep fisure then LA or heavy attack clench and proc caluudrons legacy and Kajlnar's nightmare and torugs pact which would all land at once in the same global cooldown of clench. This means you can que up multiple damage sources with just 1 or 2 skills. What's more, this isn't exclusive to magicka as anyone who's been on the PTS knows that the maelstorm 2h + stampede and then unleashed terror with azureblight ends up with crazy dot damage and burst every time azureblight fills up.

Problem 2 - proc sets providing high damage regardless of build.

The fact proc sets provide free damage allows you to use your remaining stats/build options like traits, attributes etc to gain in other areas like defence, sustain and more. What this means is that you can essential put out similar damage with LAs and procs on a 40k+ health build to that of a damage dealer focusing on damage as shown in the video. This again can be done on magicka or stamina and thus could result in people using procs and then building health and armour to counter procs on them leading to a high health tank meta.

Problem 3 - proc sets can be boosted by % modifers I.e. cp, minior beserk, malacath, passives etc.

What may be well thought out sets with an appropriate power budget, can fail to capture the fact that they can be amplified by % boosts. This can lead to balance issues as we see on PTS weeks 1/2. This is noticable on classes like warden, nightblade who can use % damage boosts like advanced species, 20% bonus damage after incap. This is also true for passives in weapon lines like heavy ancient knowledge from the destruction staff. What makes this worse is that you can then add malacath into the mix and it gets higher still which effectively allows them to crit which history showed was bad, very bad.

Problem 4 - proc sets cost no resources to use

Nearly all proc sets apply their special effect for minor resoruce cost such as "when doing melee damage proc x..." or "when you activate a ..... ability you .....". The issue with this is that you can actually end up with respectable damage pvp wise without needing to worry massively about sustain as shown in the video. This means you can negate regen on a build exclusively if you so desired. My heavy attack hero does this with using proc sets to buff the damage - regen low but hits hard due to procs.

Overall

As such, the use of proc sets for free damage allows one to bypass the global cooldown in many instances and then modify their build to have high health and armour with high damage from procs that cost 0 resources to use. When you add in % boost this then gets more polarised. Sets like malacath then allow these set that can't crit to effectively do so which history has shown was a bad idea.

Now I'm not against procs and think it helps new players and also makes other sets more interesting, allowing for more build options, but I think that raising the floor in this manner will end up making it more polarised as those skilled in pvp will also use these highly powerful sets. If we're not careful, history could repeat itself which was not healthy for the game and resulted in massive nerfs the patch after.

Possible solutions

1. Make the proc scale with it's correct stat. If it is damage then it should scale with weapon damage /stamina or spell damage/magicka. This then helps avoid high health tank builds using these to get both damage and high defence. This could be done with healing sets too but would need testing.

2. Make the proc kiss curse in that when it fires it uses some of your stats i.e. "when dealing melee damage you proc X at the cost of Y stamina. If you're out of stamina the set will fail to fire". This could help encourage people to build into sustain like a normal max stat build.

3. Adjust the % boosts proc sets can benefit from. Either keep them as is so proc damage can be amplified with % boosts and penetration but balance them with these notions in mind such as lowering the base with the knowledge that they will rise in power due to the % boosts.

4. Make proc sets have their own global cooldown whereby you can't proc a proc set within x seconds of another helping reduce the bursty nature of it.

These are my thoughts on the matter and I will produce a video with examples next week - I am hopeful, maybe a little nieve, that these will be adjusted so they are not as oppressive as they are on PTS currently for weeks 1/2.

Thanks for reading!

Unified Gaming

Very nice post!

Hopefully they listen to feedback

ecru

I'm sure they already know. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what doubling up sets is going to do, or how they work, or how often they proc, or the effort it takes to proc them. I already have a setup planned with two proc sets that's based on dot pressure, and it's going to be very, very good. They're doing this for a reason, and I'm guessing the reason is to make players who aren't very good more competitive in pvp.

auz wrote: »

Lol. If you are using caluurions or venomous smite in pve you need to rethink your life. Or at least buy a calculator.

Yeah I've seen the suggestion that this is a change aimed at making players more viable in pve more than a few times, and this is 100% not the case. Doubling up two high damage proc sets will give you about 5-6k extra dps in pve.

I would really like to see individual self heals buffed to counter these new sources of damage, because right now the coming proc meta will be very harsh on players who can only rely on a heal like Vigor to keep themselves alive. This will be especially true in nocp where heals are in the trash while procs aren't effected.

Lughlongarm

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Lughlongarm Yep, just confirmed on PTS, Red Mountain works just as poorly as all the other proc sets with a cooldown equal to the time between DoT ticks. 6 ticks of Rending (well 7, but the first 2 were simultaneous), each spaced 2s, and Red Mountain only procced 4 times.



There's some RNG here. It's possible for it to get 6 procs out of 6 ticks, just very rare. It could also proc as few as 3 times from a cast of Rending.

That's very strange. The shorter the CD the more RNG it gets? Becuase I also checked Winterborn with Destructive Touch dot, at it procs on CD from what I could tell.