Proc set meta demonstration

relentless_turnip

Hey,

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Gilliam

https://youtu.be/v8Ql5gZomRw

Isthereno1else has made another very informative video highlighting the direction of the game.

He demonstrates very well how these sets will perform in the next patch in PvP if not addressed during the rest of the PTS cycle.

I implore everyone to watch it especially the developers as he does a fantastic job demonstrating the issues currently present with the proposed direction.

I am glad proc sets are closing the gap in pve, but we need something in effect to reduce their damage in PvP. Stopping malacath buffing their damage would be a good start.

Please remember back to the last proc meta or even more recently scalebreaker. So many of the changes you have made are great, but this still warrants a discussion.

Foto1

I am sure that Zos will not touch malacat this year. we paid money for it

adilazimdegilx

Foto1 wrote: »

I am sure that Zos will not touch malacat this year. we paid money for it

Thrassian says 'Hi'

Pretty sure it's the next on the list. With this proc sets changes I wouldnt be surprised if they hit it on this DLC.

JinxxND

I think a lot of it would be better if they reverted the 60% heal nerf in PvP back to the normal 50% and attacked individual heals (pet sorc twilight heal to name one) that were over performing as then even with the new proc sets it would be a lot healthier game esp non CP

Brrrofski

What happened to their "power effeciency" campaign that there were on. Sets were apparently all adjusted based around that.

If they want to improve server performance and remove proc chances for more calculations, then maybe adjust the proc damage down to make up fro the fact the procs are up more often? You know, to keep their "power effeciency" similar to what they are now.

It won't actually improve server performance anyway. While most people run zero proc sets, aside from maybe a monster or one 5 piece proc set, EVERYONE will run two or 3 next patch. So the server will actually have more work to do with all the animations and calculating damage from procs etc.

Next patch is going to be 35k health builds with triple procs. It's going to be stupid. Worse than the proc meta we had years ago. It'll be even less skilled and brainless than it is now.

And forget no CP. Good luck doing anything there when 4 people crit rush you and put an 80k dot on you over 10 seconds.

Patch after patch after patch, we asked for improvements to pvp. Yet all we get is a worse experience. I think we all need to just pretend pvp is great and needs no changes. The more we ask to make it better, the worse zos make it.

Pvp is in the best place it's been in a long time this patch. Everyone isn't an unstoppable tank with crazy healing. You actually have to think about your build to survive well. It's the most fun pvp has been for a long time imo. The only really broken thing imo is major defile, more specifically, on blastbones.

Unified_Gaming

The issue, in my opinion, isn't malacath but how proc sets function. There are 4 reasons in my eyes that make proc sets difficult to balance. This is coming exclusively from a pvp standpoint and as a pvp content creator I am weary of these changes. I will explain why and my suggested solutions that I hope will keep the sets being useful but not oppresisve.

Problem 1 - proc sets not being on the global cooldown.

As proc sets are essentially off the global cooldown you can land 3 or 4 damage sources at once easily with just 1 skill and if you're on a class with a delayed burst skill like warden then it goes up. For example you could simply do deep fisure then LA or heavy attack clench and proc caluudrons legacy and Kajlnar's nightmare and torugs pact which would all land at once in the same global cooldown of clench. This means you can que up multiple damage sources with just 1 or 2 skills. What's more, this isn't exclusive to magicka as anyone who's been on the PTS knows that the maelstorm 2h + stampede and then unleashed terror with azureblight ends up with crazy dot damage and burst every time azureblight fills up.

Problem 2 - proc sets providing high damage regardless of build.

The fact proc sets provide free damage allows you to use your remaining stats/build options like traits, attributes etc to gain in other areas like defence, sustain and more. What this means is that you can essential put out similar damage with LAs and procs on a 40k+ health build to that of a damage dealer focusing on damage as shown in the video. This again can be done on magicka or stamina and thus could result in people using procs and then building health and armour to counter procs on them leading to a high health tank meta.

Problem 3 - proc sets can be boosted by % modifers I.e. cp, minior beserk, malacath, passives etc.

What may be well thought out sets with an appropriate power budget, can fail to capture the fact that they can be amplified by % boosts. This can lead to balance issues as we see on PTS weeks 1/2. This is noticable on classes like warden, nightblade who can use % damage boosts like advanced species, 20% bonus damage after incap. This is also true for passives in weapon lines like heavy ancient knowledge from the destruction staff. What makes this worse is that you can then add malacath into the mix and it gets higher still which effectively allows them to crit which history showed was bad, very bad.

Problem 4 - proc sets cost no resources to use

Nearly all proc sets apply their special effect for minor resoruce cost such as "when doing melee damage proc x..." or "when you activate a ..... ability you .....". The issue with this is that you can actually end up with respectable damage pvp wise without needing to worry massively about sustain as shown in the video. This means you can negate regen on a build exclusively if you so desired. My heavy attack hero does this with using proc sets to buff the damage - regen low but hits hard due to procs.

Overall

As such, the use of proc sets for free damage allows one to bypass the global cooldown in many instances and then modify their build to have high health and armour with high damage from procs that cost 0 resources to use. When you add in % boost this then gets more polarised. Sets like malacath then allow these set that can't crit to effectively do so which history has shown was a bad idea.

Now I'm not against procs and think it helps new players and also makes other sets more interesting, allowing for more build options, but I think that raising the floor in this manner will end up making it more polarised as those skilled in pvp will also use these highly powerful sets. If we're not careful, history could repeat itself which was not healthy for the game and resulted in massive nerfs the patch after.

Possible solutions

1. Make the proc scale with it's correct stat. If it is damage then it should scale with weapon damage /stamina or spell damage/magicka. This then helps avoid high health tank builds using these to get both damage and high defence. This could be done with healing sets too but would need testing.

2. Make the proc kiss curse in that when it fires it uses some of your stats i.e. "when dealing melee damage you proc X at the cost of Y stamina. If you're out of stamina the set will fail to fire". This could help encourage people to build into sustain like a normal max stat build.

3. Adjust the % boosts proc sets can benefit from. Either keep them as is so proc damage can be amplified with % boosts and penetration but balance them with these notions in mind such as lowering the base with the knowledge that they will rise in power due to the % boosts.

4. Make proc sets have their own global cooldown whereby you can't proc a proc set within x seconds of another helping reduce the bursty nature of it.

These are my thoughts on the matter and I will produce a video with examples next week - I am hopeful, maybe a little nieve, that these will be adjusted so they are not as oppressive as they are on PTS currently for weeks 1/2.

Thanks for reading!

Unified Gaming

relentless_turnip

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

The issue, in my opinion, isn't malacath but how proc sets function. There are 4 reasons in my eyes that make proc sets difficult to balance. This is coming exclusively from a pvp standpoint and as a pvp content creator I am weary of these changes. I will explain why and my suggested solutions that I hope will keep the sets being useful but not oppresisve.

Problem 1 - proc sets not being on the global cooldown.

As proc sets are essentially off the global cooldown you can land 3 or 4 damage sources at once easily with just 1 skill and if you're on a class with a delayed burst skill like warden then it goes up. For example you could simply do deep fisure then LA or heavy attack clench and proc caluudrons legacy and Kajlnar's nightmare and torugs pact which would all land at once in the same global cooldown of clench. This means you can que up multiple damage sources with just 1 or 2 skills. What's more, this isn't exclusive to magicka as anyone who's been on the PTS knows that the maelstorm 2h + stampede and then unleashed terror with azureblight ends up with crazy dot damage and burst every time azureblight fills up.

Problem 2 - proc sets providing high damage regardless of build.

The fact proc sets provide free damage allows you to use your remaining stats/build options like traits, attributes etc to gain in other areas like defence, sustain and more. What this means is that you can essential put out similar damage with LAs and procs on a 40k+ health build to that of a damage dealer focusing on damage as shown in the video. This again can be done on magicka or stamina and thus could result in people using procs and then building health and armour to counter procs on them leading to a high health tank meta.

Problem 3 - proc sets can be boosted by % modifers I.e. cp, minior beserk, malacath, passives etc.

What may be well thought out sets with an appropriate power budget, can fail to capture the fact that they can be amplified by % boosts. This can lead to balance issues as we see on PTS weeks 1/2. This is noticable on classes like warden, nightblade who can use % damage boosts like advanced species, 20% bonus damage after incap. This is also true for passives in weapon lines like heavy ancient knowledge from the destruction staff. What makes this worse is that you can then add malacath into the mix and it gets higher still which effectively allows them to crit which history showed was bad, very bad.

Problem 4 - proc sets cost no resources to use

Nearly all proc sets apply their special effect for minor resoruce cost such as "when doing melee damage proc x..." or "when you activate a ..... ability you .....". The issue with this is that you can actually end up with respectable damage pvp wise without needing to worry massively about sustain as shown in the video. This means you can negate regen on a build exclusively if you so desired. My heavy attack hero does this with using proc sets to buff the damage - regen low but hits hard due to procs.

Overall

As such, the use of proc sets for free damage allows one to bypass the global cooldown in many instances and then modify their build to have high health and armour with high damage from procs that cost 0 resources to use. When you add in % boost this then gets more polarised. Sets like malacath then allow these set that can't crit to effectively do so which history has shown was a bad idea.

Now I'm not against procs and think it helps new players and also makes other sets more interesting, allowing for more build options, but I think that raising the floor in this manner will end up making it more polarised as those skilled in pvp will also use these highly powerful sets. If we're not careful, history could repeat itself which was not healthy for the game and resulted in massive nerfs the patch after.

Possible solutions

1. Make the proc scale with it's correct stat. If it is damage then it should scale with weapon damage /stamina or spell damage/magicka. This then helps avoid high health tank builds using these to get both damage and high defence. This could be done with healing sets too but would need testing.

2. Make the proc kiss curse in that when it fires it uses some of your stats i.e. "when dealing melee damage you proc X at the cost of Y stamina. If you're out of stamina the set will fail to fire". This could help encourage people to build into sustain like a normal max stat build.

3. Adjust the % boosts proc sets can benefit from. Either keep them as is so proc damage can be amplified with % boosts and penetration but balance them with these notions in mind such as lowering the base with the knowledge that they will rise in power due to the % boosts.

4. Make proc sets have their own global cooldown whereby you can't proc a proc set within x seconds of another helping reduce the bursty nature of it.

These are my thoughts on the matter and I will produce a video with examples next week - I am hopeful, maybe a little nieve, that these will be adjusted so they are not as oppressive as they are on PTS currently for weeks 1/2.

Thanks for reading!

Unified Gaming

Thanks mate, very well written.

I look forward to your video 👍😁

Elwendryll

Very interesting perspective @Unified_Gaming, coming mainly from an endgame pve perspective, I would like to see at least some of these propositions tried.

Lughlongarm

I'm actually a fan of "Isth3reno1else".

What is exactly the point of this demonstration? He just proved that a good/chees dueling build will win vs an open world 1vsX/group build.

If dueling is our base of reference , pre-patch "Meridia's Blessed Armor" is the most insane set we have in the game.

We need to talk about proc sets the same way we talk about non proc set. per set Specifically and in a wider context.

I do agree for example that "Caluurion's Legacy" should proc on crits. Not sure why they removed it. It is part of the set identity and it's not a "%" thing which effect server performance.

Regarding the performance "Malacath's Band of Brutality" + proc sets, it should be examined. I don't have enough data to from an opinion.

Faulgor

Okay, but how is this different from live?
I just don't see any changes to proc sets in general that would cause these builds to become more prevalent than they already are. And at least in Cyrodiil, I don't encounter them that often. They are certainly not the builds I'm scared of, because while they can pressure you a lot, they also give you enough time to escape or reposition yourself.

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

1. Make the proc scale with it's correct stat. If it is damage then it should scale with weapon damage /stamina or spell damage/magicka. This then helps avoid high health tank builds using these to get both damage and high defence. This could be done with healing sets too but would need testing.

Yeah. Does anybody know why this isn't the case anyway? Streamlining proc sets into the normal DPS process would seem to make them much easier to balance, too. And it might make them actually appealing for PvE as well.
There are so many cool thematic sets that I'd like to use in PvE (Defiler, Winterborn, Red Mountain, etc), but they are an unjustifiable DPS loss. The only one that stands above all is Releqen.

ItsJustHashtag

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I know when a random person pings me and half my coworkers im super likely to read through their message and take note.

jk, its just obnoxiouse

You know what’s obnoxious? These devs completely changing everything every 3 months. These devs appearing to know very little how these changes will affect gameplay.

the1andonlyskwex

He makes a much better argument against health-based healing and damage than he does against proc sets. The long cooldowns on the procs are going to prevent the procs from stacking together sufficiently to kill anyone that's even a little bit tanky.

relentless_turnip

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

He makes a much better argument against health-based healing and damage than he does against proc sets. The long cooldowns on the procs are going to prevent the procs from stacking together sufficiently to kill anyone that's even a little bit tanky.

Well I think the fact he only used ele drain, flies and light attack in a duel with someone who has proven themselves at the very least adequate at pvp highlights the issue very well.

In terms of the health based heals he is demonstrating how due to other game mechanics you can build a full survival/tank build without any investment in stats that generally buff heals.

The long cooldowns don't prevent them all going off at the same time which is how you kill people in PvP. Are there any cooldowns longer than 5 secs anyway?

ItsJustHashtag

I remember the last time there was a proc meta and a streamer, can’t remember their name, went on and on about how awesome and not bad the meta was until one day he got killed by two people for 30 min straight using 3 proc sets and basically one shotting him. After that his attitude changed quite drastically regarding proc sets.

Koubo

Cry in Stamplar

relentless_turnip

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

I remember the last time there was a proc meta and a streamer, can’t remember their name, went on and on about how awesome and not bad the meta was until one day he got killed by two people for 30 min straight using 3 proc sets and basically one shotting him. After that his attitude changed quite drastically regarding proc sets.

😂 Nice. Let's hope history doesn't repeat...

kalunte

nice video for sure but i really do think AoEs will keep running this game more than procsets, with actual malacath or not.

if this build fits for duels and 1vxers it's fine to me, something has to work.

if it's too prevalent and complained about i'm sure ZoS will nerf things donw in 3 months tho

kojou

I say turn damage focused proc sets off in PvP. No more free damage. It might even improve performance.

Sarousse

Remember when the whole community warned devs about dots being far way too powerful during the PTS phase...

They just ignored it and let it go live. Then they nerfed dots on the next update.

The same will happen here with proc sets. The worst part is that we've already been through this.

relentless_turnip

kalunte wrote: »

nice video for sure but i really do think AoEs will keep running this game more than procsets, with actual malacath or not.

if this build fits for duels and 1vxers it's fine to me, something has to work.

if it's too prevalent and complained about i'm sure ZoS will nerf things donw in 3 months tho

I would like to see both work. Procs not doing more than skills, the same or less is fine and malacath not buffing them.

katorga

[snip]

Meh. Why complain? There is a meta. It changes on a pretty predictable cycle. ZOS loves wholesale meta shifts. Some class/builds thrive in a meta, some don't. Adapting to it is half the fun of the game.

There are the proc and crit builds that will be monsters, but calurrions+Icy+LA isn't it.

[edited to remove quote]

SidraWillowsky

Sarousse wrote: »

Remember when the whole community warned devs about dots being far way too powerful during the PTS phase...

They just ignored it and let it go live. Then they nerfed dots on the next update.

The same will happen here with proc sets. The worst part is that we've already been through this.

And they didn't just adjust the skills back to where they were pre-Scalebreaker (I think that was where DoTs got mega-buffed), they annihilated them. Increased cost and drastically reduced damage killed a lot of DoTs that were useful before Scalebreaker broke them.

ItsJustHashtag

katorga wrote: »

[snip]

Meh. Why complain? There is a meta. It changes on a pretty predictable cycle. ZOS loves wholesale meta shifts. Some class/builds thrive in a meta, some don't. Adapting to it is half the fun of the game.

There are the proc and crit builds that will be monsters, but calurrions+Icy+LA isn't it.

The meta changing every 3 months is in no way fun or exciting at all.

Foto1

ItsJustHashtag wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

That guy complains about everything.

I actually feel compared to many content creators he is very positive and optimistic about proposed changes. He didn't even get upset when they introduced cast times on ultimates. He simply said we'll try it.

I normally find he tests things a lot before broadcasting any opinions on it.

Meh. Why complain? There is a meta. It changes on a pretty predictable cycle. ZOS loves wholesale meta shifts. Some class/builds thrive in a meta, some don't. Adapting to it is half the fun of the game.

There are the proc and crit builds that will be monsters, but calurrions+Icy+LA isn't it.

The meta changing every 3 months is in no way fun or exciting at all.

Its fun for me

the1andonlyskwex

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The long cooldowns don't prevent them all going off at the same time which is how you kill people in PvP. Are there any cooldowns longer than 5 secs anyway?

Most of the bigger procs have 10-15 second cooldowns, and they're all different so without the current randomness on live they're not likely to all line up in a single burst any time other than at the beginning of a fight.

casparian

One of the best points Else makes is that the big difference between now and our previous proc meta(s) is that now, all classes have healing/defense abilities that scale on max health. This means that the previous drawback to using proc sets -- reduced healing -- no longer applies.

ZOS hates builds that have both huge tankiness and huge damage. This buff to proc sets, in the context of widespread health-based heals, will just make high-damage tank builds even more accessible and widespread.

This is a bad move.

relentless_turnip

katorga wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

That guy complains about everything.

I actually feel compared to many content creators he is very positive and optimistic about proposed changes. He didn't even get upset when they introduced cast times on ultimates. He simply said we'll try it.

I normally find he tests things a lot before broadcasting any opinions on it.

Meh. Why complain? There is a meta. It changes on a pretty predictable cycle. ZOS loves wholesale meta shifts. Some class/builds thrive in a meta, some don't. Adapting to it is half the fun of the game.

There are the proc and crit builds that will be monsters, but calurrions+Icy+LA isn't it.

I think the danger is that of scalebreaker, the swing is too big. Where it would best to change all your sets to be competitive.
What I have liked about the last few patches is changes have been incremental. An increase in damage and decrease in mitigation. With these proposed changes it is far more optimal to build your stats and traits to be tanky whilst wearing all proc damage.

I have seen a lot of improvement in build diversity... But this I think would be a step back.

relentless_turnip

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

The long cooldowns don't prevent them all going off at the same time which is how you kill people in PvP. Are there any cooldowns longer than 5 secs anyway?

Most of the bigger procs have 10-15 second cooldowns, and they're all different so without the current randomness on live they're not likely to all line up in a single burst any time other than at the beginning of a fight.

Unleashed has 10 sec cooldown, but lasts 10 secs... So no cooldown really and that is per target and true for most of the powerful proc sets.

Kadoin

Told you guys proc set on warden is the best right now and in the future

kalunte

after walking for a bit i also remembered that even if all classes have some kind of selfhealing ability(ies) based on max health crosshealing arent.

ZoS could have a look at skills' scaling with stats to solve the "dmging procsets issue" alongside nerfing some sets if needed.

all abilities scale differently with wd/sp/stam/mag if they are DoT/HoT, spammable (dmg or heal), casted, chaneled, ult and so on, basically the longer the cast the higher it scales. if they tune up the scaling for all abilities this would make the differences between dmg procsets and stat based sets (either proc or flat) even more noticeable and give more identity to different playstyles.

i think malacath already do this job really fine. (at least for me on a nightblade, deciding or not to use all crit bonus passives/skill or malacath's, no dmg crit at all, is really changing a lot of things.)
dmg procsets could bring some more diversity without being braindead top-bursters.

As for malacath's band, i'd rather have it remove all crit, that said dmg AND healing, than having it not to work with dmg procsets, they are already being cuted from bloodthirsty which is a thing considering DoTprocsets. for the sake of identity, but only ZoS knows the numbers that fits them so if it has not to work on dmgprocset so be it

Lughlongarm

You think "Unleashed"

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I'm actually a fan of "Isth3reno1else".

What is exactly the point of this demonstration? He just proved that a good/chees dueling build will win vs an open world 1vsX/group build.

If dueling is our base of reference , pre-patch "Meridia's Blessed Armor" is the most insane set we have in the game.

We need to talk about proc sets the same way we talk about non proc set. per set Specifically and in a wider context.

I do agree for example that "Caluurion's Legacy" should proc on crits. Not sure why they removed it. It is part of the set identity and it's not a "%" thing which effect server performance.

Regarding the performance "Malacath's Band of Brutality" + proc sets, it should be examined. I don't have enough data to from an opinion.

Ok, on the topic of talking Specifically about problematic proc sets on PTS.

"Shadow of the Red Mountain" - With a simple weapon skill dot, it will proc on CD every 2 sec, dealing 6k(no cp, no Malacath's )every proc. This proc set is making the other proc sets look very innocent.