Unified_Gaming wrote: »The issue, in my opinion, isn't malacath but how proc sets function. There are 4 reasons in my eyes that make proc sets difficult to balance. This is coming exclusively from a pvp standpoint and as a pvp content creator I am weary of these changes. I will explain why and my suggested solutions that I hope will keep the sets being useful but not oppresisve.
Problem 1 - proc sets not being on the global cooldown.
As proc sets are essentially off the global cooldown you can land 3 or 4 damage sources at once easily with just 1 skill and if you're on a class with a delayed burst skill like warden then it goes up. For example you could simply do deep fisure then LA or heavy attack clench and proc caluudrons legacy and Kajlnar's nightmare and torugs pact which would all land at once in the same global cooldown of clench. This means you can que up multiple damage sources with just 1 or 2 skills. What's more, this isn't exclusive to magicka as anyone who's been on the PTS knows that the maelstorm 2h + stampede and then unleashed terror with azureblight ends up with crazy dot damage and burst every time azureblight fills up.
Problem 2 - proc sets providing high damage regardless of build.
The fact proc sets provide free damage allows you to use your remaining stats/build options like traits, attributes etc to gain in other areas like defence, sustain and more. What this means is that you can essential put out similar damage with LAs and procs on a 40k+ health build to that of a damage dealer focusing on damage as shown in the video. This again can be done on magicka or stamina and thus could result in people using procs and then building health and armour to counter procs on them leading to a high health tank meta.
Problem 3 - proc sets can be boosted by % modifers I.e. cp, minior beserk, malacath, passives etc.
What may be well thought out sets with an appropriate power budget, can fail to capture the fact that they can be amplified by % boosts. This can lead to balance issues as we see on PTS weeks 1/2. This is noticable on classes like warden, nightblade who can use % damage boosts like advanced species, 20% bonus damage after incap. This is also true for passives in weapon lines like heavy ancient knowledge from the destruction staff. What makes this worse is that you can then add malacath into the mix and it gets higher still which effectively allows them to crit which history showed was bad, very bad.
Problem 4 - proc sets cost no resources to use
Nearly all proc sets apply their special effect for minor resoruce cost such as "when doing melee damage proc x..." or "when you activate a ..... ability you .....". The issue with this is that you can actually end up with respectable damage pvp wise without needing to worry massively about sustain as shown in the video. This means you can negate regen on a build exclusively if you so desired. My heavy attack hero does this with using proc sets to buff the damage - regen low but hits hard due to procs.
Overall
As such, the use of proc sets for free damage allows one to bypass the global cooldown in many instances and then modify their build to have high health and armour with high damage from procs that cost 0 resources to use. When you add in % boost this then gets more polarised. Sets like malacath then allow these set that can't crit to effectively do so which history has shown was a bad idea.
Now I'm not against procs and think it helps new players and also makes other sets more interesting, allowing for more build options, but I think that raising the floor in this manner will end up making it more polarised as those skilled in pvp will also use these highly powerful sets. If we're not careful, history could repeat itself which was not healthy for the game and resulted in massive nerfs the patch after.
Possible solutions
1. Make the proc scale with it's correct stat. If it is damage then it should scale with weapon damage /stamina or spell damage/magicka. This then helps avoid high health tank builds using these to get both damage and high defence. This could be done with healing sets too but would need testing.
2. Make the proc kiss curse in that when it fires it uses some of your stats i.e. "when dealing melee damage you proc X at the cost of Y stamina. If you're out of stamina the set will fail to fire". This could help encourage people to build into sustain like a normal max stat build.
3. Adjust the % boosts proc sets can benefit from. Either keep them as is so proc damage can be amplified with % boosts and penetration but balance them with these notions in mind such as lowering the base with the knowledge that they will rise in power due to the % boosts.
4. Make proc sets have their own global cooldown whereby you can't proc a proc set within x seconds of another helping reduce the bursty nature of it.
These are my thoughts on the matter and I will produce a video with examples next week - I am hopeful, maybe a little nieve, that these will be adjusted so they are not as oppressive as they are on PTS currently for weeks 1/2.
Thanks for reading!
Unified Gaming
Yeah. Does anybody know why this isn't the case anyway? Streamlining proc sets into the normal DPS process would seem to make them much easier to balance, too. And it might make them actually appealing for PvE as well.Unified_Gaming wrote: »1. Make the proc scale with it's correct stat. If it is damage then it should scale with weapon damage /stamina or spell damage/magicka. This then helps avoid high health tank builds using these to get both damage and high defence. This could be done with healing sets too but would need testing.
validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »I know when a random person pings me and half my coworkers im super likely to read through their message and take note.
jk, its just obnoxiouse
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »He makes a much better argument against health-based healing and damage than he does against proc sets. The long cooldowns on the procs are going to prevent the procs from stacking together sufficiently to kill anyone that's even a little bit tanky.
ItsJustHashtag wrote: »I remember the last time there was a proc meta and a streamer, can’t remember their name, went on and on about how awesome and not bad the meta was until one day he got killed by two people for 30 min straight using 3 proc sets and basically one shotting him. After that his attitude changed quite drastically regarding proc sets.
nice video for sure but i really do think AoEs will keep running this game more than procsets, with actual malacath or not.
if this build fits for duels and 1vxers it's fine to me, something has to work.
if it's too prevalent and complained about i'm sure ZoS will nerf things donw in 3 months tho
Remember when the whole community warned devs about dots being far way too powerful during the PTS phase...
They just ignored it and let it go live. Then they nerfed dots on the next update.
The same will happen here with proc sets. The worst part is that we've already been through this.
[snip]
Meh. Why complain? There is a meta. It changes on a pretty predictable cycle. ZOS loves wholesale meta shifts. Some class/builds thrive in a meta, some don't. Adapting to it is half the fun of the game.
There are the proc and crit builds that will be monsters, but calurrions+Icy+LA isn't it.
ItsJustHashtag wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »That guy complains about everything.
I actually feel compared to many content creators he is very positive and optimistic about proposed changes. He didn't even get upset when they introduced cast times on ultimates. He simply said we'll try it.
I normally find he tests things a lot before broadcasting any opinions on it.
Meh. Why complain? There is a meta. It changes on a pretty predictable cycle. ZOS loves wholesale meta shifts. Some class/builds thrive in a meta, some don't. Adapting to it is half the fun of the game.
There are the proc and crit builds that will be monsters, but calurrions+Icy+LA isn't it.
The meta changing every 3 months is in no way fun or exciting at all.
relentless_turnip wrote: »The long cooldowns don't prevent them all going off at the same time which is how you kill people in PvP. Are there any cooldowns longer than 5 secs anyway?
relentless_turnip wrote: »That guy complains about everything.
I actually feel compared to many content creators he is very positive and optimistic about proposed changes. He didn't even get upset when they introduced cast times on ultimates. He simply said we'll try it.
I normally find he tests things a lot before broadcasting any opinions on it.
Meh. Why complain? There is a meta. It changes on a pretty predictable cycle. ZOS loves wholesale meta shifts. Some class/builds thrive in a meta, some don't. Adapting to it is half the fun of the game.
There are the proc and crit builds that will be monsters, but calurrions+Icy+LA isn't it.
the1andonlyskwex wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »The long cooldowns don't prevent them all going off at the same time which is how you kill people in PvP. Are there any cooldowns longer than 5 secs anyway?
Most of the bigger procs have 10-15 second cooldowns, and they're all different so without the current randomness on live they're not likely to all line up in a single burst any time other than at the beginning of a fight.
Lughlongarm wrote: »I'm actually a fan of "Isth3reno1else".
What is exactly the point of this demonstration? He just proved that a good/chees dueling build will win vs an open world 1vsX/group build.
If dueling is our base of reference , pre-patch "Meridia's Blessed Armor" is the most insane set we have in the game.
We need to talk about proc sets the same way we talk about non proc set. per set Specifically and in a wider context.
I do agree for example that "Caluurion's Legacy" should proc on crits. Not sure why they removed it. It is part of the set identity and it's not a "%" thing which effect server performance.
Regarding the performance "Malacath's Band of Brutality" + proc sets, it should be examined. I don't have enough data to from an opinion.