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Proc Meta and Malacath
BohnT2
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Anyone who played before SotH remembers the time of very few damage proc sets which were actually useable, almost any build was using stat based sets only or was using non damage proc sets.
With SotH and especially 1Tamriel this changed a lot, a plethora of overperforming sets were released offering free unavoidable burst damage.
Stat based sets were pushed out of the meta and many death recaps were a mixture of 1 actual skill, a light attack and 3 procs.
Builds like Viper, Velidreth and eternal hunt,
Tumorscale, Viper, black rose
red mountain, Viper, selene
Widowmaker, Viper, Selene emerged just to name a few.
Back then those procs could still crit and you often had your procs deal most of the damage a 3.5k ransack followed by a 5k Viper proc and a 4k Tremorscale proc rounded up with the 70% snare.
With those procs the actual thinking and input you had to do to kill someone was as small as it ever got, up until enchant meta for 2 weeks with Murkmire maybe.
When most sets were finally nerfed and were given counterplay most people cheered up and it was commonly agreed on that a proc meta is something that should never come back again due to how unbalanced it is and how much skill and thinking it takes out of the game.
Up until Greymoor those changes were still intact and the amount of damage proc sets was very low, yes there were some but especially on stamina most builds were purely stat focused.
On magicka you had sets like overwhelming surge, zaan, Skoria, icy conjurer or caluurion that were seen here and there but especially in CP full proc builds weren't really a thing.
This changed when malacath was released buffing all your proc damage, that regularly isn't affected as much by things like weapon damage or max stam, by 25% in the damage formula.
With the increase in crit resistance, running malacath became the equivalent of 100% crit chance along with a bit more damage than regular crits along with this extra damage also affecting proc sets.
This was the beginning of a new uprisings in proc builds as many sets which were previously okayish but not broken became now incredibly powerful.
The brp destruction staff an item no one would bother using before malacath is now dealing twice the damage of many dots, icy conjurer deals more damage in 1 second with its dot than most regular dots do in 2.
Kjalnar's nightmare hits harder than Assassin's will, the list goes on and on.
And now with the first patch notes for U27 many other sets were buffed to incredible levels all with new sets which were introduced.
One huge offender here is unleashed terror, remember how I mentioned icy conjurer dealing more damage than a regular dot?
Terror deals the same overall damage but it's even more pressure as it has only a 5 seconds duration.
Combining unleashed terror with vMA 2h means your stampede applies a higher dot to multiple players than the DW ultimate can but with the difference that the DW ultimate is less bursty, has a casttime and costs 150 ultimate.
With those 2 sets you can apply a stronger dot every 10 seconds only by pressing a single skill.
It doesn't stop there multiple other sets became much stronger now with the changes to proc conditions and other changes.
Caluurion which couldn't be used previously with malacath as it required crits is now a 25k TT burst every 10 seconds.
Plague slinger now has only a 2 seconds cooldown between 8k TT hits for meele opponents, red mountain no longer has to hope to get a proc but will now reliably dish out good damage every 2 seconds and the list goes on and on.
If those changes manage to get to the live servers we're back in a proc meta probably one that's worse than any previous one.
This has to be stopped, the easiest way is by making proc damage not be affected by malacath or change every proc set to only proc on critical damage.
Then there would be only few procs which need a bit of tuning, one of them still being unleashed terror.
@Zos_Gilliam @Zos_BrianWheeler don't ruin you whole work of standardization by introducing sets that completely bypass any balance
With SotH and especially 1Tamriel this changed a lot, a plethora of overperforming sets were released offering free unavoidable burst damage.
Stat based sets were pushed out of the meta and many death recaps were a mixture of 1 actual skill, a light attack and 3 procs.
Builds like Viper, Velidreth and eternal hunt,
Tumorscale, Viper, black rose
red mountain, Viper, selene
Widowmaker, Viper, Selene emerged just to name a few.
Back then those procs could still crit and you often had your procs deal most of the damage a 3.5k ransack followed by a 5k Viper proc and a 4k Tremorscale proc rounded up with the 70% snare.
With those procs the actual thinking and input you had to do to kill someone was as small as it ever got, up until enchant meta for 2 weeks with Murkmire maybe.
When most sets were finally nerfed and were given counterplay most people cheered up and it was commonly agreed on that a proc meta is something that should never come back again due to how unbalanced it is and how much skill and thinking it takes out of the game.
Up until Greymoor those changes were still intact and the amount of damage proc sets was very low, yes there were some but especially on stamina most builds were purely stat focused.
On magicka you had sets like overwhelming surge, zaan, Skoria, icy conjurer or caluurion that were seen here and there but especially in CP full proc builds weren't really a thing.
This changed when malacath was released buffing all your proc damage, that regularly isn't affected as much by things like weapon damage or max stam, by 25% in the damage formula.
With the increase in crit resistance, running malacath became the equivalent of 100% crit chance along with a bit more damage than regular crits along with this extra damage also affecting proc sets.
This was the beginning of a new uprisings in proc builds as many sets which were previously okayish but not broken became now incredibly powerful.
The brp destruction staff an item no one would bother using before malacath is now dealing twice the damage of many dots, icy conjurer deals more damage in 1 second with its dot than most regular dots do in 2.
Kjalnar's nightmare hits harder than Assassin's will, the list goes on and on.
And now with the first patch notes for U27 many other sets were buffed to incredible levels all with new sets which were introduced.
One huge offender here is unleashed terror, remember how I mentioned icy conjurer dealing more damage than a regular dot?
Terror deals the same overall damage but it's even more pressure as it has only a 5 seconds duration.
Combining unleashed terror with vMA 2h means your stampede applies a higher dot to multiple players than the DW ultimate can but with the difference that the DW ultimate is less bursty, has a casttime and costs 150 ultimate.
With those 2 sets you can apply a stronger dot every 10 seconds only by pressing a single skill.
It doesn't stop there multiple other sets became much stronger now with the changes to proc conditions and other changes.
Caluurion which couldn't be used previously with malacath as it required crits is now a 25k TT burst every 10 seconds.
Plague slinger now has only a 2 seconds cooldown between 8k TT hits for meele opponents, red mountain no longer has to hope to get a proc but will now reliably dish out good damage every 2 seconds and the list goes on and on.
If those changes manage to get to the live servers we're back in a proc meta probably one that's worse than any previous one.
This has to be stopped, the easiest way is by making proc damage not be affected by malacath or change every proc set to only proc on critical damage.
Then there would be only few procs which need a bit of tuning, one of them still being unleashed terror.
@Zos_Gilliam @Zos_BrianWheeler don't ruin you whole work of standardization by introducing sets that completely bypass any balance
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kalunte✭✭✭✭✭Yet you forget that procsets are mainly single target, all those are DoT procsets can be purged, they almost only do dmg, they dont buff your healing power at the same time (like nma does for exemple, or all stat based bonus) and last but not least, they cant create health desync issues (unless caluurion maybe).
having them to be buffed by malacath's band makes your character stack less crit chances too which will reduce your healing output (because of fewers chances to proc) making you squishier at some extend.
As they stand now and even after being buffed you'll still be more powerfull with stat-based sets than procsets, if it wasnt true, ppl would use procsets in pve too, regardless of healing output.
Another point that can be made is that once you figured out which set your opponent use you can deal with it pretty easily. i mean, caluurion will always proc on the first dmg, so once you see the guy you can block (or not) and be fine for the next 9sec to come (if you're not glass canon) and in fact, your opponent will have to either use heavy opener or wait 10s to combo around the next proc which may hurt some haunting curse / scorch / blastbone users because they will have hard time to gather everything together.
note that all DoT procset can be purged, blocked and cloaked so when facing necro/warden/nightblade or anyone with a templar nearby, including the templar himself, wont do much if you rely on dots only.5 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭Yet you forget that procsets are mainly single target, all those are DoT procsets can be purged, they almost only do dmg, they dont buff your healing power at the same time (like nma does for exemple, or all stat based bonus) and last but not least, they cant create health desync issues (unless caluurion maybe).
having them to be buffed by malacath's band makes your character stack less crit chances too which will reduce your healing output (because of fewers chances to proc) making you squishier at some extend.
As they stand now and even after being buffed you'll still be more powerfull with stat-based sets than procsets, if it wasnt true, ppl would use procsets in pve too, regardless of healing output.
Another point that can be made is that once you figured out which set your opponent use you can deal with it pretty easily. i mean, caluurion will always proc on the first dmg, so once you see the guy you can block (or not) and be fine for the next 9sec to come (if you're not glass canon) and in fact, your opponent will have to either use heavy opener or wait 10s to combo around the next proc which may hurt some haunting curse / scorch / blastbone users because they will have hard time to gather everything together.
note that all DoT procset can be purged, blocked and cloaked so when facing necro/warden/nightblade or anyone with a templar nearby, including the templar himself, wont do much if you rely on dots only.
But there is a issue when proc sets that are dots deal more dmg in 5 to 10 second deal more dmg than all dots any player could apply even dkDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc3 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭As they stand now and even after being buffed you'll still be more powerfull with stat-based sets than procsets, if it wasnt true, ppl would use procsets in pve too, regardless of healing output.
Does that line of thought take into consideration that in pvp crits are mitigated to a good chunk via various impen sources? A crit is a full crit in pve, dealing 80%+ extra damage. In pvp, especially cp, this extra damage get's reduced by 40-50% with little investement. Therefor going crit in PvE is more efficient.0 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭Malacath and Procs need to be balanced independent from each other. The combination just pulls it to an entire different level of ridiculousness, but both are too strong even by themself, at least for noCP PvP.Yet you forget that procsets are mainly single target, all those are DoT procsets can be purged, they almost only do dmg, they dont buff your healing power at the same time (like nma does for exemple, or all stat based bonus) and last but not least, they cant create health desync issues (unless caluurion maybe).
having them to be buffed by malacath's band makes your character stack less crit chances too which will reduce your healing output (because of fewers chances to proc) making you squishier at some extend.
As they stand now and even after being buffed you'll still be more powerfull with stat-based sets than procsets, if it wasnt true, ppl would use procsets in pve too, regardless of healing output.
Another point that can be made is that once you figured out which set your opponent use you can deal with it pretty easily. i mean, caluurion will always proc on the first dmg, so once you see the guy you can block (or not) and be fine for the next 9sec to come (if you're not glass canon) and in fact, your opponent will have to either use heavy opener or wait 10s to combo around the next proc which may hurt some haunting curse / scorch / blastbone users because they will have hard time to gather everything together.
note that all DoT procset can be purged, blocked and cloaked so when facing necro/warden/nightblade or anyone with a templar nearby, including the templar himself, wont do much if you rely on dots only.
"It is balanced if you are zerging". So lets all zerg even more, the servers are surely going to love that ...Edited by Rianai on July 17, 2020 2:05PM1 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭it is also true in pvp, even with dmg reduction from impen. if you build high enough for crits you'll do more average dmg + your crits will be able to create burst dmg which can actually overtake healing/tankiness of your opponent while linear dmg are... linear, if someone manage to sustain your dmg output you may never be able to kill it with "luck" but will have to figure out a way to drop him out of stam then stun and so on.
on the other hand if you build for stats, not specialy in crits your raw dmg wont be 25% more powerfull but if you reach 35% dmg bonus after impen calculation (which is achievable with passives and pc, or just passives if you play no cp) then you'll do more raw dmg than a malacath's user.1 -
Jaxaxo✭✭✭✭Yet you forget that procsets are mainly single target, all those are DoT procsets can be purged, they almost only do dmg, they dont buff your healing power at the same time (like nma does for exemple, or all stat based bonus) and last but not least, they cant create health desync issues (unless caluurion maybe).
having them to be buffed by malacath's band makes your character stack less crit chances too which will reduce your healing output (because of fewers chances to proc) making you squishier at some extend.
As they stand now and even after being buffed you'll still be more powerfull with stat-based sets than procsets, if it wasnt true, ppl would use procsets in pve too, regardless of healing output.
Another point that can be made is that once you figured out which set your opponent use you can deal with it pretty easily. i mean, caluurion will always proc on the first dmg, so once you see the guy you can block (or not) and be fine for the next 9sec to come (if you're not glass canon) and in fact, your opponent will have to either use heavy opener or wait 10s to combo around the next proc which may hurt some haunting curse / scorch / blastbone users because they will have hard time to gather everything together.
note that all DoT procset can be purged, blocked and cloaked so when facing necro/warden/nightblade or anyone with a templar nearby, including the templar himself, wont do much if you rely on dots only.
[snip]
There is lot of aoe proc sets, which on top cant be purged (say hello to grothgarr/overwhelming/malacath magdks meta in both cp and nocp).
[snip] Actually proc sets were used in pve before, when they could crit. But like somebody pointed that above, in cp u can get ~80% crit dmg modifier which is not mitigated by crit resistance, since mobs dont have any. Now compare 25% buff from malacath to 80% buff from crit. [snip]
About reducing healing output it's rather about proper theorycrafting. Using proper skills/going for heavy armor/using healing proc sets, using hp rec. Those things will diminish the "drawbacks" of malacath and create big disparity between builds utilising that set and those, which dont use it.
Also, about buffing healing output i wanna point, that those "proc sets" still have other 3 set bonuses, it's usually sth like 300-400 weapon dmg u're trading for "afk" dmg. Of course, it affects heals, but much less u're trying to prove.
Necro purge is kinda rarely used, but is good counter, warden purge is laugable if u think it can be used vs proper dotbuild. One effect per 1 gcd + ~600 heal. Ye, great idea to spam it vs proper dot build. Not gonna point that it's even worse when there is more ppl on u.
U also totally ignore that pvp is not about being offensive all the time. To actually outdmg the proc build u would need to stay offensive all the time. And most of procs are kinda "afk" dmg, which let u pressure enemy while also buffing/healing/tanking, debuffing/etc.
[snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on July 17, 2020 5:16PMForum War - pro AC side
EU PC Azura Star/Sotha Sil/Bahlokdaan/Ravenwatch
Triggered Tryhards / Aetherius Art / LND / DC-PD
DC - Frostitute magden
AD - Pees-under-Trees magden
DC - Lemme Dark Deal stamsorc
EP - Lemme Dark Déal stamsorc
Youtube2 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭Like i said, so many wrong statements. I just dunno if u really believe it or just tryin to defend your playstyle. Guess second thing, cuz everytime i met u're in few proc sets
Can't be him, after all he would rather have Merciless/Relentless nerfed thanhaving some dumb "i win" button.
The irony ...0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭With little to no effort you can throw a build together on pts which has 70k TT burst damage coming from 2 sets and Assassin's will and will isn't the highest source of damage here.
On the other side of the spectrum, during scalebreaker we saw how bad overtuned dots are for the game, well now those dots are back brought to you by proc sets0 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭well, if i say so it's because i'm having both a procset setup AND a proper damage setup with appropriate skills to it.
As low as you can think i am i know for sure that my proper damage setup withou malacath but assassination skills and shadow mundus stone is doing much more damage than the procset one.
i'm also rarely playing BiS setups because i'm not having fun with them, does this prevent me from clearing high end content? no. Does this prevent me from having decent knowledge of this game and how it works? No. Does this prevent me to fight against top players in pvp? No.
i'm simply adding my bias to yours. you started a post with only one point of view over how damage procsets and malacath's band of brutality synergize, well, they have been for a while and only venomous poison is regularly seen, no other procset is dominating as for 5pc sets (i agree on grothdarr being more popular tho) just because as it is designed yet, if you dont manage to purge it it does aoe dmg, i'm all against braindead aoe since year 1 but this is another point.
as for necros, well, they have a passive that reduce dot dmg by 15%. i wasnt talking about the purge only for them, but experience and practice teach more than bias.0 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭note that ppl using grothdarr and venomous smite rarely use malacath... lolEdited by kalunte on July 17, 2020 3:53PM0
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Malprave✭✭✭✭People have been complaining for years about all the useless sets. So they make changes resulting in a bunch of sets being very useful and everybody complains about that. They come up with an item that opens up a whole new world of build possibilities (Malacath) and people complain about that.
I’m still fascinated with the idea that putting on a couple proc sets will make mediocre players suddenly competitive.
Also, apparently flying completely under the radar is that crit builds are receiving a buff because they’re nerfing impenetrable.
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lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭People have been complaining for years about all the useless sets. So they make changes resulting in a bunch of sets being very useful and everybody complains about that. They come up with an item that opens up a whole new world of build possibilities (Malacath) and people complain about that.
I’m still fascinated with the idea that putting on a couple proc sets will make mediocre players suddenly competitive.
Also, apparently flying completely under the radar is that crit builds are receiving a buff because they’re nerfing impenetrable.
The problem isn’t proc sets in it self it’s that proc sets deal more dmg than all non ult abilitiesDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc2 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭lucky_Sage wrote: »People have been complaining for years about all the useless sets. So they make changes resulting in a bunch of sets being very useful and everybody complains about that. They come up with an item that opens up a whole new world of build possibilities (Malacath) and people complain about that.
I’m still fascinated with the idea that putting on a couple proc sets will make mediocre players suddenly competitive.
Also, apparently flying completely under the radar is that crit builds are receiving a buff because they’re nerfing impenetrable.
The problem isn’t proc sets in it self it’s that proc sets deal more dmg than all non ult abilities
Not just non ult abilities. And when comparing procs to skills it also has to be considered that the latter costs resources and a gcd and can't be stacked in the same way as procs.1 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭i forgot to mention that procsets will be nerfed buy bloodthirsty tweak to come. all in all it wont be this awfull and stats setups will still be better.1
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BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭i forgot to mention that procsets will be nerfed buy bloodthirsty tweak to come. all in all it wont be this awfull and stats setups will still be better.
Please show me the stat set i can put on to give me 50k TT over 5 seconds after pressing a gap closer.
Or show me the stat set i can put on a magnecro that will result in 60% of my damage over a 5 minute fight4 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
I do think a few procs are overtuned and could be adjusted, with or without the malacath ring. But the point of the ring IMO was that procs were exactly what it was designed for b/c you are giving up criting on everything else. The only way to make that worthwhile is in a proc build. Giving up all crits for 25% buff to damage on only things that can crit is a loss, so they'd need to rework the ring completely or just break it and make it worthless like they are doing with thrassian. Which could be a thing I guess, let's make every mythic item worthless except the speed ring, soon people will get on about that too.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
I do think a few procs are overtuned and could be adjusted, with or without the malacath ring. But the point of the ring IMO was that procs were exactly what it was designed for b/c you are giving up criting on everything else. The only way to make that worthwhile is in a proc build. Giving up all crits for 25% buff to damage on only things that can crit is a loss, so they'd need to rework the ring completely or just break it and make it worthless like they are doing with thrassian. Which could be a thing I guess, let's make every mythic item worthless except the speed ring, soon people will get on about that too.
It works well on channeled or dot damage.
The magdk meta at the moment is elfbane and grothdaar. Grothdaar is only a part of what makes it strong. I main magdk and I truly feel malacath shouldn't work with proc sets. It is overpowered.0 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
That's not true. Even many non proc builds will deal more dmg with malacath than without.0 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Update the game to a new meta. Put one of the strongest sets in the newest content. It's a sales pitch, plain and simple.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
I do think a few procs are overtuned and could be adjusted, with or without the malacath ring. But the point of the ring IMO was that procs were exactly what it was designed for b/c you are giving up criting on everything else. The only way to make that worthwhile is in a proc build. Giving up all crits for 25% buff to damage on only things that can crit is a loss, so they'd need to rework the ring completely or just break it and make it worthless like they are doing with thrassian. Which could be a thing I guess, let's make every mythic item worthless except the speed ring, soon people will get on about that too.
If they bar out procs from malacath they could adjust the strength accordingly to make them an viable alternative for non-crit builds. Just shooting from the hips. Of course that would be a different percentage in pve as in pvp. But they could also put a debuff to it in battle spirit?
That thrassian will be *** is no secret. Would be better if they generate stacks on crits etc. or just lower the stack power and leave as is it is otherwise.
And people have already been on about wild hunt even before release.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on July 17, 2020 5:53PM0 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
I do think a few procs are overtuned and could be adjusted, with or without the malacath ring. But the point of the ring IMO was that procs were exactly what it was designed for b/c you are giving up criting on everything else. The only way to make that worthwhile is in a proc build. Giving up all crits for 25% buff to damage on only things that can crit is a loss, so they'd need to rework the ring completely or just break it and make it worthless like they are doing with thrassian. Which could be a thing I guess, let's make every mythic item worthless except the speed ring, soon people will get on about that too.
It works well on channeled or dot damage.
The magdk meta at the moment is elfbane and grothdaar. Grothdaar is only a part of what makes it strong. I main magdk and I truly feel malacath shouldn't work with proc sets. It is overpowered.
channels and dot damage can crit, you get more damage with crits.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
That's not true. Even many non proc builds will deal more dmg with malacath than without.
Tell me this build where you don't care that any of your critable abilities can crit b/c 25% damage is more than crit damage?
Is this a non-vet, non-cp pvp thing or something?-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
That's not true. Even many non proc builds will deal more dmg with malacath than without.
Tell me this build where you don't care that any of your critable abilities can crit b/c 25% damage is more than crit damage?
Is this a non-vet, non-cp pvp thing or something?
Malacath results in more damage in every form of pvp outside of heavily crit focused niche builds, otherwise you're actively deciding to use a suboptimal build by not running malacath.3 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
That's not true. Even many non proc builds will deal more dmg with malacath than without.
Tell me this build where you don't care that any of your critable abilities can crit b/c 25% damage is more than crit damage?
Is this a non-vet, non-cp pvp thing or something?
You need a 50% crit rate and 50% critical damage after the target's crit resist to match Malacath on skills. It averages out to 25% more damage if the RNG gods don't go against you. Malacath is 25% with no RNG.1 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
That's not true. Even many non proc builds will deal more dmg with malacath than without.
Tell me this build where you don't care that any of your critable abilities can crit b/c 25% damage is more than crit damage?
Is this a non-vet, non-cp pvp thing or something?
Malacath results in more damage in every form of pvp outside of heavily crit focused niche builds, otherwise you're actively deciding to use a suboptimal build by not running malacath.
This is not true, even on my magplar with no procs and slightly lower than optimal crit its a pretty big loss of damage.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
That's not true. Even many non proc builds will deal more dmg with malacath than without.
Tell me this build where you don't care that any of your critable abilities can crit b/c 25% damage is more than crit damage?
Is this a non-vet, non-cp pvp thing or something?
You need a 50% crit rate and 50% critical damage after the target's crit resist to match Malacath on skills. It averages out to 25% more damage if the RNG gods don't go against you. Malacath is 25% with no RNG.
crit damage starts at 50%, once you add in CP and the couple other buffs, this is not really a problem and 50% crit rate is not hard to achieve. In testing I did on my magplar, malacath was a dps loss in pvp, but that's in CP, I don't do much non-cp. (Edit: lets not forget it forces you to drop a set bonus as well which greatly effects a build or versatility - I would not give up my monster set currently for example for just the "no RNG" 25% bonus damage)
It would be interesting if crit resistance applied to the bonus damage of malacath though.Edited by xaraan on July 17, 2020 6:30PM-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
I do think a few procs are overtuned and could be adjusted, with or without the malacath ring. But the point of the ring IMO was that procs were exactly what it was designed for b/c you are giving up criting on everything else. The only way to make that worthwhile is in a proc build. Giving up all crits for 25% buff to damage on only things that can crit is a loss, so they'd need to rework the ring completely or just break it and make it worthless like they are doing with thrassian. Which could be a thing I guess, let's make every mythic item worthless except the speed ring, soon people will get on about that too.
It works well on channeled or dot damage.
The magdk meta at the moment is elfbane and grothdaar. Grothdaar is only a part of what makes it strong. I main magdk and I truly feel malacath shouldn't work with proc sets. It is overpowered.
channels and dot damage can crit, you get more damage with crits.
Not true for PvP. Obviously you build for malacath, but if you build mainly dots and channeled attacks then you are building a pressure build rather than burst. In which case malacath makes this much better than crits do. Crits are mostly essential for a burst build.0 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
That's not true. Even many non proc builds will deal more dmg with malacath than without.
Tell me this build where you don't care that any of your critable abilities can crit b/c 25% damage is more than crit damage?
Is this a non-vet, non-cp pvp thing or something?
You need a 50% crit rate and 50% critical damage after the target's crit resist to match Malacath on skills. It averages out to 25% more damage if the RNG gods don't go against you. Malacath is 25% with no RNG.
crit damage starts at 50%, once you add in CP and the couple other buffs, this is not really a problem and 50% crit rate is not hard to achieve. In testing I did on my magplar, malacath was a dps loss in pvp, but that's in CP, I don't do much non-cp. (Edit: lets not forget it forces you to drop a set bonus as well which greatly effects a build or versatility - I would not give up my monster set currently for example for just the "no RNG" 25% bonus damage)
It would be interesting if crit resistance applied to the bonus damage of malacath though.
Crit dmg starts at 30% in PvP and for 50% crit chance you have to give up at least some survivability and/or other dmg stats.
It is also not true that you have to give up a set bonus for Malacath (other than another mythic item), because there are plenty of good sets that only neeed to be slotted on 1 bar.1 -
Kaysha✭✭✭✭I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.
But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.
That's not true. Even many non proc builds will deal more dmg with malacath than without.
Tell me this build where you don't care that any of your critable abilities can crit b/c 25% damage is more than crit damage?
Is this a non-vet, non-cp pvp thing or something?
You need a 50% crit rate and 50% critical damage after the target's crit resist to match Malacath on skills. It averages out to 25% more damage if the RNG gods don't go against you. Malacath is 25% with no RNG.
crit damage starts at 50%, once you add in CP and the couple other buffs, this is not really a problem and 50% crit rate is not hard to achieve. In testing I did on my magplar, malacath was a dps loss in pvp, but that's in CP, I don't do much non-cp. (Edit: lets not forget it forces you to drop a set bonus as well which greatly effects a build or versatility - I would not give up my monster set currently for example for just the "no RNG" 25% bonus damage)
It would be interesting if crit resistance applied to the bonus damage of malacath though.
And how did you test the damage of your magplar?0
