Proc Meta and Malacath

lucky_Sage

xaraan wrote: »

I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.

But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.

I do think a few procs are overtuned and could be adjusted, with or without the malacath ring. But the point of the ring IMO was that procs were exactly what it was designed for b/c you are giving up criting on everything else. The only way to make that worthwhile is in a proc build. Giving up all crits for 25% buff to damage on only things that can crit is a loss, so they'd need to rework the ring completely or just break it and make it worthless like they are doing with thrassian. Which could be a thing I guess, let's make every mythic item worthless except the speed ring, soon people will get on about that too.

No really most people will have more than 25% crit dmg reduction so most of the time malacath hits harder than your crits do and 100% so basically equals 100% crit chance better for most builds other than necro and nb for most cases

Kittytravel

Asking ZOS to introduce anti-proc damage into the "Battle Spirit" buff would be more sensible than simply asking them to reverse everything the patch has to offer when their goal is to raise the skill floor for PvE without destroying the ceiling like Thrassian did. 30-50% less proc damage in PvP zones would discourage their use and dismiss any and all worries outlined because it would almost be like how they were pre-buff and certainly wouldn't be better than using the current setups and relying on the skill of the player.

ZOS can have their cake and eat it too with this change and so can the entire player base.

technohic

As this devolves into a Malacath potency debate; I'd like to go back to focus on the procs. The new set tool tip is stronger than some of the strongest DOT abilities when running 5k weapon or spell damage and 30k main stat.

And while you cant get as high of stats with the procs, you dont need to as you really only need to worry about getting past resists without worrying about damage and main stat. There are abilities that give the same breach/fracture value regardless of stats, and there are health recovery and healing procs to make up for that shortcoming.

With a proc build, you also dont have to worry so much about resource management as you dont have to spam into combos. Just keep your buffs up and activate your proc condition and cruise. Those DOT procs that can be purged? Free while the purge cost 4k mag.

Procs, should be a damage addition equivalent of the difference in power you have without them; not rival and even surpass similar damage abilities on their own. IE if I stack weapon damage to get vampires bane to be 2k DPS, and with a proc set; vampires bane is 1.5k DPS; the proc dot should be around 500 DPS.

Tommy_The_Gun

I know there is a rule that basically says: Proc sets can not proc other proc sets.

What if this also applied to Malacath ? So the 25% dmg boost would simply not affect proc sets ?

xaraan

Rianai wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.

But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.

That's not true. Even many non proc builds will deal more dmg with malacath than without.

Tell me this build where you don't care that any of your critable abilities can crit b/c 25% damage is more than crit damage?

Is this a non-vet, non-cp pvp thing or something?

You need a 50% crit rate and 50% critical damage after the target's crit resist to match Malacath on skills. It averages out to 25% more damage if the RNG gods don't go against you. Malacath is 25% with no RNG.

crit damage starts at 50%, once you add in CP and the couple other buffs, this is not really a problem and 50% crit rate is not hard to achieve. In testing I did on my magplar, malacath was a dps loss in pvp, but that's in CP, I don't do much non-cp. (Edit: lets not forget it forces you to drop a set bonus as well which greatly effects a build or versatility - I would not give up my monster set currently for example for just the "no RNG" 25% bonus damage)

It would be interesting if crit resistance applied to the bonus damage of malacath though.

Crit dmg starts at 30% in PvP and for 50% crit chance you have to give up at least some survivability and/or other dmg stats.
It is also not true that you have to give up a set bonus for Malacath (other than another mythic item), because there are plenty of good sets that only neeed to be slotted on 1 bar.

How does it start at 30%, are you automatically figuring in crit resist for this?

xaraan

Kaysha wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.

But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.

That's not true. Even many non proc builds will deal more dmg with malacath than without.

Tell me this build where you don't care that any of your critable abilities can crit b/c 25% damage is more than crit damage?

Is this a non-vet, non-cp pvp thing or something?

You need a 50% crit rate and 50% critical damage after the target's crit resist to match Malacath on skills. It averages out to 25% more damage if the RNG gods don't go against you. Malacath is 25% with no RNG.

crit damage starts at 50%, once you add in CP and the couple other buffs, this is not really a problem and 50% crit rate is not hard to achieve. In testing I did on my magplar, malacath was a dps loss in pvp, but that's in CP, I don't do much non-cp. (Edit: lets not forget it forces you to drop a set bonus as well which greatly effects a build or versatility - I would not give up my monster set currently for example for just the "no RNG" 25% bonus damage)

It would be interesting if crit resistance applied to the bonus damage of malacath though.

And how did you test the damage of your magplar?

Same way you test anything, you fight someone you know and see what the difference is.

xaraan

lucky_Sage wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.

But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.

I do think a few procs are overtuned and could be adjusted, with or without the malacath ring. But the point of the ring IMO was that procs were exactly what it was designed for b/c you are giving up criting on everything else. The only way to make that worthwhile is in a proc build. Giving up all crits for 25% buff to damage on only things that can crit is a loss, so they'd need to rework the ring completely or just break it and make it worthless like they are doing with thrassian. Which could be a thing I guess, let's make every mythic item worthless except the speed ring, soon people will get on about that too.

No really most people will have more than 25% crit dmg reduction so most of the time malacath hits harder than your crits do and 100% so basically equals 100% crit chance better for most builds other than necro and nb for most cases

Not sure how you get this math, everyone would be running malacath if this was true and you are mostly seeing it on niche builds and proc builds for a reason. Even the guy talking about pressure sets with dots math doesn't add up b/c burst is actually more damage intensive for knowing the damage you do vs. longer pressure fights where crits procs start to equalize. I'd also argue that most people aren't as crit resistant as you think. But if you are keeping up your crit buff from trap or race and have CP into it, and there are class bonuses as well, you are doing a lot more than 50% crit damage.

As for the person saying you don't have to drop a set, wearing the ring does break a lot of sets. Whether it's a proc set, or having to backbar, or not, but if you aren't running proc sets, it definitely breaks a flat damage set or you lose that effect on the backbar. Either way, it limits build options. If it didn't, you wouldn't be giving such a specific example of how to make it work.

Rianai

kalunte wrote: »

i forgot to mention that procsets will be nerfed buy bloodthirsty tweak to come. all in all it wont be this awfull and stats setups will still be better.

Some actual numbers from PTS:

I've used the typical Magblade burst combo: Soul Harvest -> Merciless. Buffs/Debuffs were always the same, aside from stuff that procced from the sets. No CP. 1p Skoria, 1p Balorgh, 4p Acuity, Malacth to remove rng, unless stated otherwise.

Caluurion: 66,5k burst dmg. The proc accounts for more than 30% (20k+)

War Maiden: 48,1k burst dmg

As you can see, those 600 Spell dmg, which is actually a lot, increases the dmg of my skills by mere ~12%. There is no way any stat set could add the same amount of burst as Caluurion

"But, but ... Calu is dodgeable!" And so are all my skills. But unlike my skills, Calu is off gcd, which means a hit can actually guaranteed with cc. And some other procs are even undodgeable.

"But, but ... Calu has a cooldown, Stats and skills do not!" Ultimates and burst skills like AW do have some sort of cd, and by far not all stat sets have 100% uptime.

But what happens if we compare War Maiden to a dot proc sets with potentially 100% uptime instead?

Icy Conjurer: 53,2k burst dmg. Still significantly higher burst than with War Maiden.
And 3,4k sustained dps on top. I'd have to deal ~ 28k dps before the dmg boost from the set for War Maiden to increase my sustained dmg by that much . But with Concealed Weapon weaving i'll only do less than half of that and i'd have to actively attack every second, while Icy lets me do whatever.

Also notice how Icy just procced itself twice due to chill status effects, resulting in 85,5k dmg from a single ele drain application. Dumb luck, but still ridiculous.

"But, but ... procs can't crit. With crits, stats would be much better!"
Ok, so lets replace Malacath with a 5th piece of Acuity, swap to shadow mundus and test War Maiden again:

65,3k burst. Oh wow, that's almost on Calu level. Almost ... against a dummy with zero crit resist on the class with the highest crit modifier possible.

"But, but ... Calu does not buff heals!" And neither does War Waiden. Sets which will buff my healing grant even less dmg than WM, and that set already looks underwhelming enough compared to procs, no?

"But, but ... You aren't even testing real builds. On proper builds stats become much better!"
Well, then add Balorgh with 500 ult into the mix, together with Acuity and War Maiden that should be the highest burst possible with raw stats. Also full Spell dmg glyphs. And then compare it to a build with garbage stats and procs.

Stats: 84,3k burst. That's a lot.

Procs: 80,5k burst. And there we go, Stats > procs confirmed!

Right?
Well yes, if we ignore, that the target dummy has no crit resists unlike players. And i was using full sustain glyphs on the proc build as opposed to spell dmg glyphs on the stat build. And the proc burst can be repeated every few seconds while building up 500 ult for Balorgh takes minutes. And i was using no monsterset on the procc build, but in practise it is no problem to add one, since most procs can be used on 1 bar only just fine. I also forgot to transmute malacath, so it still had bloodthirsty trait, which had no effect whatsoever, because the dummy was way above 25% hp all the time.

Ofc the target dummy is no player and in actual PvP, results will vary. A lot. As such, those numbers shouldn't be taken too seriously. However in many cases PvP will favour procs even more than my tests. And no, I'm not going to do minute long dps parses, because that's not how PvP works and any results would be even less relevant.

katorga

Also notice how Icy just procced itself twice due to chill status effects, resulting in 85,5k dmg from a single ele drain application. Dumb luck, but still ridiculous.

It does that sometimes. Some weird loophole where chilled status effect from a frost proc does not count as part of the proc so as not to violate procs can't proc procs. I tried to make a go of that set on my magcro when that class first came out.

BohnT2

xaraan wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.

But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.

I do think a few procs are overtuned and could be adjusted, with or without the malacath ring. But the point of the ring IMO was that procs were exactly what it was designed for b/c you are giving up criting on everything else. The only way to make that worthwhile is in a proc build. Giving up all crits for 25% buff to damage on only things that can crit is a loss, so they'd need to rework the ring completely or just break it and make it worthless like they are doing with thrassian. Which could be a thing I guess, let's make every mythic item worthless except the speed ring, soon people will get on about that too.

No really most people will have more than 25% crit dmg reduction so most of the time malacath hits harder than your crits do and 100% so basically equals 100% crit chance better for most builds other than necro and nb for most cases

Not sure how you get this math, everyone would be running malacath if this was true and you are mostly seeing it on niche builds and proc builds for a reason. Even the guy talking about pressure sets with dots math doesn't add up b/c burst is actually more damage intensive for knowing the damage you do vs. longer pressure fights where crits procs start to equalize. I'd also argue that most people aren't as crit resistant as you think. But if you are keeping up your crit buff from trap or race and have CP into it, and there are class bonuses as well, you are doing a lot more than 50% crit damage.

As for the person saying you don't have to drop a set, wearing the ring does break a lot of sets. Whether it's a proc set, or having to backbar, or not, but if you aren't running proc sets, it definitely breaks a flat damage set or you lose that effect on the backbar. Either way, it limits build options. If it didn't, you wouldn't be giving such a specific example of how to make it work.

Everyone who knows what they're doing is running malacath because it is always better than other things. There is no reason not to run it unless you want to play a bad build.
The things you want to do to make a crit build deal more damage on it's crits are useless because those are still diminished by your crit chance. Malacath gives you the same damage as crits would do but all the time.

technohic

BohnT2 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.

But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.

I do think a few procs are overtuned and could be adjusted, with or without the malacath ring. But the point of the ring IMO was that procs were exactly what it was designed for b/c you are giving up criting on everything else. The only way to make that worthwhile is in a proc build. Giving up all crits for 25% buff to damage on only things that can crit is a loss, so they'd need to rework the ring completely or just break it and make it worthless like they are doing with thrassian. Which could be a thing I guess, let's make every mythic item worthless except the speed ring, soon people will get on about that too.

No really most people will have more than 25% crit dmg reduction so most of the time malacath hits harder than your crits do and 100% so basically equals 100% crit chance better for most builds other than necro and nb for most cases

Not sure how you get this math, everyone would be running malacath if this was true and you are mostly seeing it on niche builds and proc builds for a reason. Even the guy talking about pressure sets with dots math doesn't add up b/c burst is actually more damage intensive for knowing the damage you do vs. longer pressure fights where crits procs start to equalize. I'd also argue that most people aren't as crit resistant as you think. But if you are keeping up your crit buff from trap or race and have CP into it, and there are class bonuses as well, you are doing a lot more than 50% crit damage.

As for the person saying you don't have to drop a set, wearing the ring does break a lot of sets. Whether it's a proc set, or having to backbar, or not, but if you aren't running proc sets, it definitely breaks a flat damage set or you lose that effect on the backbar. Either way, it limits build options. If it didn't, you wouldn't be giving such a specific example of how to make it work.

Everyone who knows what they're doing is running malacath because it is always better than other things. There is no reason not to run it unless you want to play a bad build.
The things you want to do to make a crit build deal more damage on it's crits are useless because those are still diminished by your crit chance. Malacath gives you the same damage as crits would do but all the time.

I have 45% crit chance with 85% modifier without trying on magplar. Stamsorcs get heals off of crits. NBs have auto crit. a lot of builds also lose 8% damage from minor berserk by losing the crit for camo hunter. The only build I have (that I looked at) which was decisively better was stamden.

kalunte

Rianai wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

i forgot to mention that procsets will be nerfed buy bloodthirsty tweak to come. all in all it wont be this awfull and stats setups will still be better.

Some actual numbers from PTS:

I've used the typical Magblade burst combo: Soul Harvest -> Merciless. Buffs/Debuffs were always the same, aside from stuff that procced from the sets. No CP. 1p Skoria, 1p Balorgh, 4p Acuity, Malacth to remove rng, unless stated otherwise.

Caluurion: 66,5k burst dmg. The proc accounts for more than 30% (20k+)

War Maiden: 48,1k burst dmg

As you can see, those 600 Spell dmg, which is actually a lot, increases the dmg of my skills by mere ~12%. There is no way any stat set could add the same amount of burst as Caluurion

"But, but ... Calu is dodgeable!" And so are all my skills. But unlike my skills, Calu is off gcd, which means a hit can actually guaranteed with cc. And some other procs are even undodgeable.

"But, but ... Calu has a cooldown, Stats and skills do not!" Ultimates and burst skills like AW do have some sort of cd, and by far not all stat sets have 100% uptime.

But what happens if we compare War Maiden to a dot proc sets with potentially 100% uptime instead?

Icy Conjurer: 53,2k burst dmg. Still significantly higher burst than with War Maiden.
And 3,4k sustained dps on top. I'd have to deal ~ 28k dps before the dmg boost from the set for War Maiden to increase my sustained dmg by that much . But with Concealed Weapon weaving i'll only do less than half of that and i'd have to actively attack every second, while Icy lets me do whatever.

Also notice how Icy just procced itself twice due to chill status effects, resulting in 85,5k dmg from a single ele drain application. Dumb luck, but still ridiculous.

"But, but ... procs can't crit. With crits, stats would be much better!"
Ok, so lets replace Malacath with a 5th piece of Acuity, swap to shadow mundus and test War Maiden again:

65,3k burst. Oh wow, that's almost on Calu level. Almost ... against a dummy with zero crit resist on the class with the highest crit modifier possible.

"But, but ... Calu does not buff heals!" And neither does War Waiden. Sets which will buff my healing grant even less dmg than WM, and that set already looks underwhelming enough compared to procs, no?

"But, but ... You aren't even testing real builds. On proper builds stats become much better!"
Well, then add Balorgh with 500 ult into the mix, together with Acuity and War Maiden that should be the highest burst possible with raw stats. Also full Spell dmg glyphs. And then compare it to a build with garbage stats and procs.

Stats: 84,3k burst. That's a lot.

Procs: 80,5k burst. And there we go, Stats > procs confirmed!

Right?
Well yes, if we ignore, that the target dummy has no crit resists unlike players. And i was using full sustain glyphs on the proc build as opposed to spell dmg glyphs on the stat build. And the proc burst can be repeated every few seconds while building up 500 ult for Balorgh takes minutes. And i was using no monsterset on the procc build, but in practise it is no problem to add one, since most procs can be used on 1 bar only just fine. I also forgot to transmute malacath, so it still had bloodthirsty trait, which had no effect whatsoever, because the dummy was way above 25% hp all the time.

Ofc the target dummy is no player and in actual PvP, results will vary. A lot. As such, those numbers shouldn't be taken too seriously. However in many cases PvP will favour procs even more than my tests. And no, I'm not going to do minute long dps parses, because that's not how PvP works and any results would be even less relevant.

all that just to say procsets can have better burst than stat sets just like if pvp is only about having a good burst.

i could do the same with a spreadsheet of dmg over 9 sec with caluurion and 9sec without and BOOM stat set would outperform it i guess...

we can agree on many points but it looks like here ppl can kill everything by spamming a gapcloser over and over dealing *50k TT* dmg (i dont even, know what that means btw), stack 5different procsets so that they have one for 2for damage, 1 for healing, 1for resist and 1 last for sustain and do disapear/afk between procsets cooldown all the time for all classes (not only nightblades cloaking over and over).
those nightblade are the squishiest btw and often get killed once revealed. Good to know.

still pvp is not only about bursting, some may have noticed it, you also need to survive. and the differences are just to obvious to spend time on proper numbers.

some procsets are definatly overtuned and should tweaked to match regular set power (looking at you venomous smite and gapcloser set to come...) but those thing about malacath being best item in game for pvp by far is simply false. Thrassian were performing too good even in hm trial, this wasnt expected because the counterpart should have killed risky players, yet it did not => made magicka way too strong => got monitored on ZoS screens and got nerfed. yet Thrassians were complained about on dummies, not on real encounters but the result is that they are too strong and easily manageable making them a target for the nerfhammer.
malacath just didnt, ppl still die more from crits than any form of malacath's based setup either in raw numbers or in %. if it wasnt, just like thrassians, it would have been a target of the so loved nerfhammer.

anyway, i hope ZoS keep on to what they're doing: not listening complains on forums

Ariades_swe

Sweep scales bad with crit since it rarely will crit with each channel compared to malacath who will buff each individual channel tick.
Crit is way more suited for instant attacks.

Rianai

technohic wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.

But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.

I do think a few procs are overtuned and could be adjusted, with or without the malacath ring. But the point of the ring IMO was that procs were exactly what it was designed for b/c you are giving up criting on everything else. The only way to make that worthwhile is in a proc build. Giving up all crits for 25% buff to damage on only things that can crit is a loss, so they'd need to rework the ring completely or just break it and make it worthless like they are doing with thrassian. Which could be a thing I guess, let's make every mythic item worthless except the speed ring, soon people will get on about that too.

No really most people will have more than 25% crit dmg reduction so most of the time malacath hits harder than your crits do and 100% so basically equals 100% crit chance better for most builds other than necro and nb for most cases

Not sure how you get this math, everyone would be running malacath if this was true and you are mostly seeing it on niche builds and proc builds for a reason. Even the guy talking about pressure sets with dots math doesn't add up b/c burst is actually more damage intensive for knowing the damage you do vs. longer pressure fights where crits procs start to equalize. I'd also argue that most people aren't as crit resistant as you think. But if you are keeping up your crit buff from trap or race and have CP into it, and there are class bonuses as well, you are doing a lot more than 50% crit damage.

As for the person saying you don't have to drop a set, wearing the ring does break a lot of sets. Whether it's a proc set, or having to backbar, or not, but if you aren't running proc sets, it definitely breaks a flat damage set or you lose that effect on the backbar. Either way, it limits build options. If it didn't, you wouldn't be giving such a specific example of how to make it work.

Everyone who knows what they're doing is running malacath because it is always better than other things. There is no reason not to run it unless you want to play a bad build.
The things you want to do to make a crit build deal more damage on it's crits are useless because those are still diminished by your crit chance. Malacath gives you the same damage as crits would do but all the time.

I have 45% crit chance with 85% modifier without trying on magplar. Stamsorcs get heals off of crits. NBs have auto crit. a lot of builds also lose 8% damage from minor berserk by losing the crit for camo hunter. The only build I have (that I looked at) which was decisively better was stamden.

After crit resist there are probably only 40-50% crit dmg left, so your crit will average out at a 18-22% dmg bonus, all while being forced into light (med for stam) armor and having to hope that you don't run into someone wearing trans or similar sets, to hard counter your dmg investment.

kalunte wrote: »

all that just to say procsets can have better burst than stat sets just like if pvp is only about having a good burst.

i could do the same with a spreadsheet of dmg over 9 sec with caluurion and 9sec without and BOOM stat set would outperform it i guess...

I'm not only showcasing Calu burst. And you are not going to sit there and "parse" on a player, even if only for 9 seconds, unless it is a tank. And when playing with a burst class and a burst set, ofc your burst is what matters the most. If you want to build arround sustained dmg, there are other procs to use that will again outperform any stat set by far (even on live all pressure builds already run procs, and they are only getting buffed).

kalunte wrote: »

we can agree on many points but it looks like here ppl can kill everything by spamming a gapcloser over and over dealing *50k TT* dmg (i dont even, know what that means btw), stack 5different procsets so that they have one for 2for damage, 1 for healing, 1for resist and 1 last for sustain and do disapear/afk between procsets cooldown all the time for all classes (not only nightblades cloaking over and over).
those nightblade are the squishiest btw and often get killed once revealed. Good to know.

still pvp is not only about bursting, some may have noticed it, you also need to survive. and the differences are just to obvious to spend time on proper numbers.

TT = tooltip.

And yes, you need to survive too, but with those crazy proc dmg numbers there is no outhealing, so you'd rather proc your enemy to death before he does the same to you. Aside from this, procs allow for much more passive/defensive gameplay while keeping pressure up. Losing a little bit of healing, if any at all, is pretty irrelevant in light of those benefits (aside from this, 99% of players run in zergs, which will take care of the survival part anyway).

kalunte wrote: »

some procsets are definatly overtuned and should tweaked to match regular set power (looking at you venomous smite and gapcloser set to come...) but those thing about malacath being best item in game for pvp by far is simply false. Thrassian were performing too good even in hm trial, this wasnt expected because the counterpart should have killed risky players, yet it did not => made magicka way too strong => got monitored on ZoS screens and got nerfed. yet Thrassians were complained about on dummies, not on real encounters but the result is that they are too strong and easily manageable making them a target for the nerfhammer.
malacath just didnt, ppl still die more from crits than any form of malacath's based setup either in raw numbers or in %. if it wasnt, just like thrassians, it would have been a target of the so loved nerfhammer.

anyway, i hope ZoS keep on to what they're doing: not listening complains on forums

Vemomous looks weak in comparison to a bunch of new procs and Malacath is absolutely op. Thrassian got nerfed because it is way easier to identify overtuned stuff in PvE, due to standardized encounters/parses and a clear cut between "endgame" PvE and casual gameplay". Neither exists for PvP, and many players are going to run whatever they want, no matter how over or underperforming stuff is, and everyone is going to die to all kinds of stuff. You simply can't balance PvP arround statistics. You need knowledge for that, and that's something ZOS is clearly lacking (as well as many players).

dominguero96

I think you are forgetting some things.
For example the Icy conjurer / Kjalnar's sets dealing more damage than any skill. While it is true, in order to be applied is way harder than any skill.
The "proyectile" of Icy conjurer is slower than a horse with only 10 points in speed.

The Kjalnar's you need to do five light attacks with a cooldown between them, and then have the enemy previously stunned. By tht time you could have launched 3 assassin will.

I wouldn't fear the magicka procsets because normally magicka classes have enough skills to be viable (except magcro and magblade). I would fear the stamina proc sets than can also apply in area like venomous strike of pillar of nirn.

kalunte

Rianai wrote: »

You simply can't balance PvP arround statistics.

you finaly got it right. please stand there, dont go any further. thanks

Aedrion

This is what happens when you just Excel-sheet your balance patches paired with balancing things in a vacuum because you don't know your own game enough to foresee the obvious.

Malacath was Pay2Win from the start. Buy Greymoor and you can acquire this item that essentially equals 50% crit chance with a 50% crit modifier. And since crits in no-cp are harder to build for and set back by impen and lack of crit dmg modifiers, Malacath is an easy choice for most classes.

And now they're buffing procsets for some mystical reason. Unleashed Terror indeed, what a fantastically fitting name for the newest offender to lead the charge.

It's already annoying to be hit twice by some people with bows and staves in a zerg and find yourself afflicted with venomous smite, icy conjurer, and other dot-procs without also having balls of lava smack you every 2 seconds, fire procs every 2 seconds; or a bunch of ridiculous bleeds, all with +25% dmg because of Malacath's Band of Stupidity.

Guess we're all going to have to run Curse-Eater because if this goes live, we'll be eating curses for months.

BohnT2

kalunte wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

You simply can't balance PvP arround statistics.

you finaly got it right. please stand there, dont go any further. thanks

The argument you imply here is wrong, him bringing up damage numbers =/= balancing with statistics only.
The thing here is that you take those numbers and mix them with experience of an earlier proc meta and then realize that what we have on PTS right now should never make it to the live servers.

There's countless people on the PTS, including me, who are more than happy if you came there and proved how a stat based build can compete in both CP and no CP.

Rianai

dominguero96 wrote: »

I think you are forgetting some things.
For example the Icy conjurer / Kjalnar's sets dealing more damage than any skill. While it is true, in order to be applied is way harder than any skill.
The "proyectile" of Icy conjurer is slower than a horse with only 10 points in speed.

The Kjalnar's you need to do five light attacks with a cooldown between them, and then have the enemy previously stunned. By tht time you could have launched 3 assassin will.

Applying a minor debuff is as trivial as applying ele drain, or waiting for some status effect procs. Most builds will apply one without even trying. The set can even proc itself, meaning you have to do absolutely nothing sometimes. And many skills can be dodged just as easily, if not even more easily. Simply the fact that it can "force" an additional dodge for free is a huge benefit in itself.

And AW requires 5 light attacks too, landing a cc somewhere inbetween barely makes it "way harder" to land.

Also for many procs it is even easier and all you have to do is "deal dmg" or "take dmg".

kalunte wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

You simply can't balance PvP arround statistics.

you finaly got it right. please stand there, dont go any further. thanks

You brought up statistics, i did not.

kalunte

BohnT2 wrote: »

There's countless people on the PTS, including me, who are more than happy if you came there and proved how a stat based build can compete in both CP and no CP.

So now i am supposed to find an "how to play" solution for you?

i'm definatly not doing this. if you cant figure out by yourself that crit oriented builds do more dmg than malacath's builds on a burst based build i just cant help you. forgeting on top of that that having a set like caluurion where only procing on top of a crit (and as ppl stated crit is also a proc in some place) so that the proc was already occuring on top of a burst, not randomly is also the easy way of complaining i love.
Considering some are thinking that you can just use some *50k TT ressource free single button* and be fine without anything else aside or even worse: that you will instantly die to someone using this against you i can tell that you're not just skiping what you dont want to take into consideration but also lack tons of knowledge about damage sustain (both in or out), sets synergy and set/skills synergy which i wont develop neither.

Saying that everything relies on malacath to work is false. it is as the same lvl than "p2w" complain just like some are playing this game for free..

BohnT2

kalunte wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

There's countless people on the PTS, including me, who are more than happy if you came there and proved how a stat based build can compete in both CP and no CP.

So now i am supposed to find an "how to play" solution for you?

i'm definatly not doing this. if you cant figure out by yourself that crit oriented builds do more dmg than malacath's builds on a burst based build i just cant help you. forgeting on top of that that having a set like caluurion where only procing on top of a crit (and as ppl stated crit is also a proc in some place) so that the proc was already occuring on top of a burst, not randomly is also the easy way of complaining i love.
Considering some are thinking that you can just use some *50k TT ressource free single button* and be fine without anything else aside or even worse: that you will instantly die to someone using this against you i can tell that you're not just skiping what you dont want to take into consideration but also lack tons of knowledge about damage sustain (both in or out), sets synergy and set/skills synergy which i wont develop neither.

Saying that everything relies on malacath to work is false. it is as the same lvl than "p2w" complain just like some are playing this game for free..

No I'm asking you to prove in practise that the things you say are true.

Rianai

BohnT2 wrote: »

kalunte wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

There's countless people on the PTS, including me, who are more than happy if you came there and proved how a stat based build can compete in both CP and no CP.

So now i am supposed to find an "how to play" solution for you?

i'm definatly not doing this. if you cant figure out by yourself that crit oriented builds do more dmg than malacath's builds on a burst based build i just cant help you. forgeting on top of that that having a set like caluurion where only procing on top of a crit (and as ppl stated crit is also a proc in some place) so that the proc was already occuring on top of a burst, not randomly is also the easy way of complaining i love.
Considering some are thinking that you can just use some *50k TT ressource free single button* and be fine without anything else aside or even worse: that you will instantly die to someone using this against you i can tell that you're not just skiping what you dont want to take into consideration but also lack tons of knowledge about damage sustain (both in or out), sets synergy and set/skills synergy which i wont develop neither.

Saying that everything relies on malacath to work is false. it is as the same lvl than "p2w" complain just like some are playing this game for free..

No I'm asking you to prove in practise that the things you say are true.

He'd need a zerg to hide inside to prove his point, and unfortunately there are non on PTS.

Strider__Roshin

It's whatever. Proc sets are talentless, and free damage, and terrible for PvP.

People act like they close the gap between skilled and unskilled players but history has shown that skilled players will use OP sets (as they should) and PvP will just be in an unhealthy state.

But they exist now and will continue to exist as long as we have the same dev team. I don't agree with nerfing the stam proc sets as long as Skoria and Caluurion remains. I do however, believe ZOS should eliminate them all from the game.

Ariades_swe

kalunte wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

There's countless people on the PTS, including me, who are more than happy if you came there and proved how a stat based build can compete in both CP and no CP.

So now i am supposed to find an "how to play" solution for you?

i'm definatly not doing this. if you cant figure out by yourself that crit oriented builds do more dmg than malacath's builds on a burst based build i just cant help you. forgeting on top of that that having a set like caluurion where only procing on top of a crit (and as ppl stated crit is also a proc in some place) so that the proc was already occuring on top of a burst, not randomly is also the easy way of complaining i love.
Considering some are thinking that you can just use some *50k TT ressource free single button* and be fine without anything else aside or even worse: that you will instantly die to someone using this against you i can tell that you're not just skiping what you dont want to take into consideration but also lack tons of knowledge about damage sustain (both in or out), sets synergy and set/skills synergy which i wont develop neither.

Saying that everything relies on malacath to work is false. it is as the same lvl than "p2w" complain just like some are playing this game for .

Langeston

technohic wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I agree with some of the people that have pointed out things like many of the procs are single target or are effects can be purged, which is a consideration.

But my main argument would be this: What would malacath be useful for, and I mean REALLY useful for, if they didn't work on proc sets. There would literally be no reason to run the ring IMO at that point, even someone with a low crit chance will get more damage from crit damage procs (and lets be clear, even crits are procs) than from malacath.

I do think a few procs are overtuned and could be adjusted, with or without the malacath ring. But the point of the ring IMO was that procs were exactly what it was designed for b/c you are giving up criting on everything else. The only way to make that worthwhile is in a proc build. Giving up all crits for 25% buff to damage on only things that can crit is a loss, so they'd need to rework the ring completely or just break it and make it worthless like they are doing with thrassian. Which could be a thing I guess, let's make every mythic item worthless except the speed ring, soon people will get on about that too.

No really most people will have more than 25% crit dmg reduction so most of the time malacath hits harder than your crits do and 100% so basically equals 100% crit chance better for most builds other than necro and nb for most cases

Not sure how you get this math, everyone would be running malacath if this was true and you are mostly seeing it on niche builds and proc builds for a reason. Even the guy talking about pressure sets with dots math doesn't add up b/c burst is actually more damage intensive for knowing the damage you do vs. longer pressure fights where crits procs start to equalize. I'd also argue that most people aren't as crit resistant as you think. But if you are keeping up your crit buff from trap or race and have CP into it, and there are class bonuses as well, you are doing a lot more than 50% crit damage.

As for the person saying you don't have to drop a set, wearing the ring does break a lot of sets. Whether it's a proc set, or having to backbar, or not, but if you aren't running proc sets, it definitely breaks a flat damage set or you lose that effect on the backbar. Either way, it limits build options. If it didn't, you wouldn't be giving such a specific example of how to make it work.

Everyone who knows what they're doing is running malacath because it is always better than other things. There is no reason not to run it unless you want to play a bad build.
The things you want to do to make a crit build deal more damage on it's crits are useless because those are still diminished by your crit chance. Malacath gives you the same damage as crits would do but all the time.

I have 45% crit chance with 85% modifier without trying on magplar. Stamsorcs get heals off of crits. NBs have auto crit. a lot of builds also lose 8% damage from minor berserk by losing the crit for camo hunter. The only build I have (that I looked at) which was decisively better was stamden.

Base crit resistance + 7 impen next patch is 2239, which amounts to 33.92% crit damage resistance (let's say 34% to keep it simple.) If you have a 45% crit rate and do 85% crit damage on your magplar, the amount of extra damage you do is 22.95%. (85-34)% x 45% = 22.95. So you're already better off with Malacath right now, as far as sustained damage is concerned.

Now I'm assuming those numbers are with CP. If that's the case, (and assuming you are getting 15% crit damage from CP) your number in no CP drops to 12.96%, which isn't even close. (85-15-34)% x (45-9%) = 12.96.

Even on my magblade (which is more reliant on crit than any other class in the game) Malacath is better than building for crit nearly all the time in no CP, and quite often in CP. Even on the PTS right now, with the extra 10% crit damage and the new Elemental Catalyst set, crit builds are still not necessarily better than Malacath. The reason for this is that in order to come up with a crit build that is markedly better than using Malacath, you have to forgo base damage and penetration, and/or survivability. (And if you're using any proc sets at all, you're losing damage from that as well.)

I think you underestimate just how strong Malacath is, especially in no CP.