Should proc set damage be decreased by battlespirit?

PeterUnlustig

I get that most Proc sets are useless in pve, questing and so on bc they can`t crit and will almost always be outperformed by stat sets (with the exception of monster sets and relequen). But buffing the damage to a point where they are usefull in pve will hurt PvP and vice versa. So Proc sets should get the same treatment as healing in PvP and get reduced to a point where they are usefull, but will never outshine stat sets. Espacially with malacaths ring of brutality, which buffs your proc sets more then your normal attacks, proc sets are outperforming almost anything already.

ThePedge

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

Proc sets are free damage
Free damage lowers the skill gap
Lower skill gap, bad game

the1andonlyskwex

Proc set tooltips shouldnt be lowered via battlespirit

Battle Spirit already reduces everyone's damage taken by 50%.

ItsJustHashtag

They should be lowered in general but also not work with malacath

kojou

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Battle Spirit already reduces everyone's damage taken by 50%.

This...

I would be an advocate for them not working at all in PvP, but that will probably not happen.

katorga

They spend release after release designing and putting proc sets into the game. They obviously intend for them to be used.

There are only so many permutations of stat sets, especially if you keep the stats static for years. Just how many years can you keep players interested running old BiS setups, with no level/CP progression, and nothing but rehashed content and mechanics?

KageNin

Only solution to balance them is either: a) Lower tooltip ,b) increase cooldown , which is preferable as it will decrease further messages to mega server from your toon, which is a bit of help in Cyrordill.

Hopefully theyll make skills work in groups only as well.

Rianai

ThePedge wrote: »

Proc sets are free damage
Free damage lowers the skill gap
Lower skill gap, bad game

ZOS literally said they want to lower the skill gap. Everything working as intended ...

KageNin wrote: »

Only solution to balance them is either: a) Lower tooltip ,b) increase cooldown , which is preferable as it will decrease further messages to mega server from your toon, which is a bit of help in Cyrordill.

Hopefully theyll make skills work in groups only as well.

Balancing via cooldown doesn't really work very well in PvP with fights often having a very short duration. Otherwise you might as well add a set which oneshots a player then add a 10 min cd and call it balanced because "it only deals 200 dps".

Ivan04

Proc set tooltips shouldnt be lowered via battlespirit

They're already reduced by battle spirit. Proc sets are nothing right now, you should have played in One Tamriel and Morrowind patches to know how bad they actually were

PeterUnlustig

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Battle Spirit already reduces everyone's damage taken by 50%.

wow you are so smart why dont you work at Zenimax?

relentless_turnip

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

Ivan04 wrote: »

They're already reduced by battle spirit. Proc sets are nothing right now, you should have played in One Tamriel and Morrowind patches to know how bad they actually were

I don't think the concern is what they are now, but what they are going to be in the next patch. 19k over 5 secs is stronger than any dot in the game and just as easy to apply. I am all for them making it easier for new players to join in, but they shouldn't be better than skills.

They should line up with the damage of dots or spammables depending on it's duration and shouldn't be increased by malacath. I don't see any reason why they should be stronger than skills.

validifyedneb18_ESO

Proc set tooltips shouldnt be lowered via battlespirit

A clear split between the people who are good at PVP and the people who think the only reason they are bad is because of other people using proc sets.

I answer purely from a BG perspective though, no idea how things are in cyro

PeterUnlustig

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

Seriously why are all of commenting without a clue?

Proc sets will be insane next patch.

And the only solution to adjust them without nerfing them for PVE would be via battlespirit.

"hurr durr its already reduced by 50% im smort"

SidraWillowsky

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Seriously why are all of commenting without a clue?

Proc sets will be insane next patch.

And the only solution to adjust them without nerfing them for PVE would be via battlespirit.

"hurr durr its already reduced by 50% im smort"

Yeah, some sets are going to be OP as fuuuu in PvP... and will then get the nerf hammer that renders them useless in both PvP AND PvE

PeterUnlustig

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Seriously why are all of commenting without a clue?

Proc sets will be insane next patch.

And the only solution to adjust them without nerfing them for PVE would be via battlespirit.

"hurr durr its already reduced by 50% im smort"

Yeah, some sets are going to be OP as fuuuu in PvP... and will then get the nerf hammer that renders them useless in both PvP AND PvE

Thats exactly the point of the poll. But people lack the capability of understanding it.
Sometimes i think the average playerbase deserves the pittyful product, that ESO is turning into. Forums are the best example of that.

ThePedge

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

Rianai wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Proc sets are free damage
Free damage lowers the skill gap
Lower skill gap, bad game

ZOS literally said they want to lower the skill gap. Everything working as intended ...

Doesn't mean I have to agree. Nothing will come of it but I'll voice my opinion either way.

SidraWillowsky

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Seriously why are all of commenting without a clue?

Proc sets will be insane next patch.

And the only solution to adjust them without nerfing them for PVE would be via battlespirit.

"hurr durr its already reduced by 50% im smort"

Yeah, some sets are going to be OP as fuuuu in PvP... and will then get the nerf hammer that renders them useless in both PvP AND PvE

Thats exactly the point of the poll. But people lack the capability of understanding it.
Sometimes i think the average playerbase deserves the pittyful product, that ESO is turning into. Forums are the best example of that.

Yep... people crying "L2P" but it's not an L2P/git gud issue, it's that people can see what's coming from miles away and are trying to stop it. I've tested a ton of the updated sets in the PTS on parses- there are still the standouts (Rele and Siroria are still the strongest), but the gap between BiS and "next best" is much smaller. And now we've got a bunch of "next best"s for PvE- for example, Mad Tinkerer and Red Mountain are both strong enough to use now, and both have fun visuals when then proc. A lot of sets have had their damage increased to a point where they're not OP but to where they're now viable.

Anyway, the issue is that whereas the proposed changes for these sets are all pretty balanced in PvE, it's NOT the case in PvP. If things so live without changes to these sets in PvP, PvP is going to be a frustrating, chaotic mess for a few months, at which point abused sets will get a serious nerf. And if history is any indication (and it is here), the nerfs will make the sets beyond useless; even worse than they were pre-nerf. And that's going to be a bummer all around.

Parasaurolophus

Proc set tooltips shouldnt be lowered via battlespirit

Where is the option "Malacath's Ring effect only works on abilities"?

relentless_turnip

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Seriously why are all of commenting without a clue?

Proc sets will be insane next patch.

And the only solution to adjust them without nerfing them for PVE would be via battlespirit.

"hurr durr its already reduced by 50% im smort"

Yeah, some sets are going to be OP as fuuuu in PvP... and will then get the nerf hammer that renders them useless in both PvP AND PvE

Thats exactly the point of the poll. But people lack the capability of understanding it.
Sometimes i think the average playerbase deserves the pittyful product, that ESO is turning into. Forums are the best example of that.

Yep... people crying "L2P" but it's not an L2P/git gud issue, it's that people can see what's coming from miles away and are trying to stop it. I've tested a ton of the updated sets in the PTS on parses- there are still the standouts (Rele and Siroria are still the strongest), but the gap between BiS and "next best" is much smaller. And now we've got a bunch of "next best"s for PvE- for example, Mad Tinkerer and Red Mountain are both strong enough to use now, and both have fun visuals when then proc. A lot of sets have had their damage increased to a point where they're not OP but to where they're now viable.

Anyway, the issue is that whereas the proposed changes for these sets are all pretty balanced in PvE, it's NOT the case in PvP. If things so live without changes to these sets in PvP, PvP is going to be a frustrating, chaotic mess for a few months, at which point abused sets will get a serious nerf. And if history is any indication (and it is here), the nerfs will make the sets beyond useless; even worse than they were pre-nerf. And that's going to be a bummer all around.

I think that's great to hear it will help with pve!

They definetly need to be reduced by nearly half for PvP. People may think that's extreme, but if you measure a stam dot like cleave for example - 10k over 10 secs versus 19k over 5 secs, we can see the issue. By all means measure it against damage skill equivalent as this might not be the best example.

If they can modify them to be equal enough to be an alternative to skills via battlespirit I think this patch will be great.

Chilly-McFreeze

Proc set tooltips shouldn't be lowered via battlespirit, but malacath shouldnt work on them

With the upcoming changes/ addition to sets procs seem more effective than ordinary skills.

If you gut them via spirit and deny malacath they become worthless.

If you gut them via spirit but let malacath boost them, malacath's ring becomes a necessity for proc builds. Which is bad design.

So I'd go the with don't letting malacath effect proc sets + adjust single overperforming procs and see if malcath needs a buff then. Fine tuning.
Bonus points for for putting the malacath-procset-restriction in battle spirit only.

lolo_01b16_ESO

I'm not a big fan of adding more and more effects to battlespirit.
What about allowing proc sets to crit, but cutting their damage down by 30-40%. Then you make them noticably weaker when pairing them with malacath, slightly weaker on average pvp builds that don't have a +100% crit damage modifier, but at the same time buff them a bit for pve.

MincVinyl

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

katorga wrote: »

They spend release after release designing and putting proc sets into the game. They obviously intend for them to be used.

There are only so many permutations of stat sets, especially if you keep the stats static for years. Just how many years can you keep players interested running old BiS setups, with no level/CP progression, and nothing but rehashed content and mechanics?

Maybe instead of having sets do the work for the player, the player improves themselves? Been playing since beta, still have never used a proc set. Mechanically there is so much to keep improving on, even a player like me is still progressing.

Imo gear should strengthen what the player does, not be strong for the player.

MincVinyl

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

BrownChicken wrote: »

Where is the option "Malacath's Ring effect only works on abilities"?

This is the issue of: zos will not remember that malacath is a thing. Make some new silly set change. Then we will be stuck for months with half the idiots in the game running around in cheese builds.Remember the sloads soultrap meta? imagine that but with a 25% damage buff.

It will eventually happen with the malacath....actually it will happen this pts probs with the change to Caluurions. I mean their proposed changes are having it tooltip higher than a dizzy swing with a shorter cast/travel time before being modified by malacath. And this solely goes off because a player can left click, man they really have to work to get their proc off, such skilled gameplay.

xaraan

Proc set tooltips shouldnt be lowered via battlespirit

No, proc sets aren't really a big thing in PvE, it's obvious they are mainly for pvp, though a couple sets can be useful in trash fights and monster sets are useful just b/c of what you get from the two piece (but even if things aren't not optimized in pve, something as basic as slimecraw can be stronger).

The entire reason proc sets cannot crit is b/c of pvp. So they have already received a big debuff thanks to that at one point.

This means if there are a couple outliers, then those should be adjusted for being too strong, not just a blanket nerfing to all making them useless, which is really what players complaining want - they want them not to be useful so that people either aren't dangerous when they run them or stop running them. Let's face it, 3/4 or more of all existing proc sets are already useless in pve and pvp. What procplainers really want are for that to be 100% and I can't say I don't understand, but I also don't think that is reasonable for the game we now have.

And honestly, malacath isn't that bad, it's not as strong as when procs could crit and it's less damage than you give up just for a proc to do more base damage. If the ring didn't work on procs it would be more useless to run than the new thrassian set next patch as you will get more damage from crits even with a low crit rate than you would from that flat bonus to critable attacks and LA/HAs.

In the end, this is the problem when people ask for changes like this, they don't want balance, they want procs destroyed. And I understand why. But they are part of the game, so you aren't calling for balance, you are calling for a complete overhaul of the way the game is designed and works. Which is fine, procs are cheesy, but personally I think you should fight blatantly for that overall and not just to 'allow them to exist, but suck'. Last thing we need in the game is more useless item sets.

And you would be surprised how many people in the game I've run into that preach about how bad proc sets are, but use other procs that they deem 'ok' without realizing it's still a proc set. It's the age old multiplayer gimmick of 'let me tell you how to play so I can beat you' argument. While they use whatever cheese they prefer, I don't know very many players not running skills that they know are out of balance or a class that's over tuned or some other proc that might not be as obvious as direct damage, but still provides a solid and dangerous buff (that often also buffs healing too) or players that love ganging up on smaller numbers, or 'sucker punch' tactics like NBs use, or whatever cheese they justify. It's just the way cyrodiil is, so IMO procs just add to that chaos. If there is something a little overtuned, then that can be adjusted, but I'm not much for wholesale destruction of procs unless we are going to overhaul everything.

What's funny is back when procs could crit and everyone was attacking them and they decided to make a change, my idea was to allow everyone to have a proc cooldown, so even if you had multiple proc sets, only one could go off every so many seconds, and it would essentially allow someone to have only one proc at a time useful and I would have continued to allow them to crit in that method. But ZoS has to come up with their own ideas for problems that usually aren't as good as what we often see in forums from vet players and they decided to let them not crit. Personally, I think the proc global cooldown would have not only balanced things better, still allowed procs to be very useful case by case without worrying about balancing how you can stack them and created less strain on the servers for calculations the way they have been working toward recently.

SidraWillowsky

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

xaraan wrote: »

No, proc sets aren't really a big thing in PvE, it's obvious they are mainly for pvp

Er.... the only sets that are mainly for PvP are... the ones you get from PvP. Why would PvE overland zones drop proc sets if they're designed mainly for PvP?

I see a ton of people using proc sets in PvE...

xaraan

Proc set tooltips shouldnt be lowered via battlespirit

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

No, proc sets aren't really a big thing in PvE, it's obvious they are mainly for pvp

Er.... the only sets that are mainly for PvP are... the ones you get from PvP. Why would PvE overland zones drop proc sets if they're designed mainly for PvP?

I see a ton of people using proc sets in PvE...

ok, sorry-- when I say useful in pve, I'm talking end game raiding and such, not just whatever random stuff anyone can throw on in questing. Literally anything is useful in those fights and they take little skill or real gear, so sure, any proc set is fine for those things in PvE.

But no, A LOT of sets from the game you don't get in pvp are mainly useful in pvp.

Anyron

No proc sets are fine now.. By making it affected by battle spirit you make it trash set.. Damage is lowered by battle spirit already Btw

relentless_turnip

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

Anyron wrote: »

No proc sets are fine now.. By making it affected by battle spirit you make it trash set.. Damage is lowered by battle spirit already Btw

Please show me a skill that does 19k over 5 secs? You would struggle to find a skill that does that over 10 and you would need a hefty investment in damage to even come close. Proc sets don't require resources or a GCD. I am more than happy for them to do as much damage as an equivalent skill, this would help new players and offers build variety to experienced players.
If they don't change a thing this will be unenjoyable for everyone.

It needs lowering for PvP, for PVE it is working as intended. Everyone knows damage received is 50% less in PvP.

Xologamer

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit, but malacath should still work on them

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

I get that most Proc sets are useless in pve, questing and so on bc they can`t crit and will almost always be outperformed by stat sets (with the exception of monster sets and relequen). But buffing the damage to a point where they are usefull in pve will hurt PvP and vice versa. So Proc sets should get the same treatment as healing in PvP and get reduced to a point where they are usefull, but will never outshine stat sets. Espacially with malacaths ring of brutality, which buffs your proc sets more then your normal attacks, proc sets are outperforming almost anything already.

lower the tooltip but the actual dmg is already nerfed

relentless_turnip

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

Xologamer wrote: »

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

I get that most Proc sets are useless in pve, questing and so on bc they can`t crit and will almost always be outperformed by stat sets (with the exception of monster sets and relequen). But buffing the damage to a point where they are usefull in pve will hurt PvP and vice versa. So Proc sets should get the same treatment as healing in PvP and get reduced to a point where they are usefull, but will never outshine stat sets. Espacially with malacaths ring of brutality, which buffs your proc sets more then your normal attacks, proc sets are outperforming almost anything already.

lower the tooltip but the actual dmg is already nerfed

So with no additional stats at all unleashed does 19k. Dizzy swing you need nearly 8k weapon damage to get the same tooltip. The damage is reduced by 50% in both cases. Only with 8k weapon damage your build has nothing else. No resistance, no recovery to use your weapon damage. With unleashed I can have 3 recovery glyphs and 2 other proc sets 😂

Proc sets should be lowered via battle spirit to meet the same or slightly more(because they can't crit) to an equivalent skill. If they are working as intended in pve then battlespirit is the best option in my opinion.

Strider__Roshin

Proc set tooltips should be lowered via battlespirit and malacath shouldnt work on them

ThePedge wrote: »

Proc sets are free damage
Free damage lowers the skill gap
Lower skill gap, bad game

This.