Bloodthirsty Vs. Infused Jewelry trait Answered!

VoidCommander

So with the new changes to bloodthirsty, many people are wondering if it is still the BiS option for pve damage dealers. I did the math to compare it with the infused trait by taking the average spell/weapon damage contribution both traits made over the course of 100% health. While this math was quite easy for infused since it is a constant 104 spell/weapon damage boost as long as you are using the damage boost enchantment, it was a bit trickier for bloodthirsty.
I ended up dividing the final damage bonus (250) by each percentage that it can affect (90). That got us a 2.77 weapon/spell damage increase for each percent of health that was removed. Start with this number and add 2.77 from 90 down to 1. Take the average from this table of values, in addition to 10 "0" spots for 100-91% health, and we come up with an average of 114 spell/weapon damage.
So in the end, using all bloodthirsty traits will give you an effective 30 spell/weapon damage advantage compared to infused. This is good because it means we don't have to retransmute our dozens of jewelry pieces.
However, in my opinion, it would be wise to invest in Infused traits for any new gear you get from this point on. Most creatures that are at that juicy <10% threshold where bloodthirsty will really shine will die in one or two ability casts REGARDLESS of which trait you used. We ignored this in previous patches because old bloodthirsty's effectiveness put the one-shot margin closer to 20-25%. Infused will allow for more versatility with what enchantments you want to run, as unlikely as that is. Additionally, infused can be used to great effect in Pvp, so you won't have to use multiple jewelry sets if your pve and pvp jewelry overlap.
I would like to hear anyone else's thoughts on this.

Qyrk

The excel sheet for this difference is also discussed at a link from this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/537185/bloodthirsty-vs-infused

The excel sheet (kudos to the author of this!)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Sy4elgxokQUAnKUQaVOq9h6xBlsWSGgV5Hb9NfwHV18/edit?usp=sharing

martijnlv40

Alright so while it seems easy this way, it isn’t. I’ll try to explain: it depends on another thing, apart from the one you mentioned about how long a boss is below a certain threshold. Namely, how much damage you do in each phase. If you run a strong execute, bloodthirsty will benefit you more than if you didn’t. To me it would seem that especially Sorcs would run infused, firstly because they don’t have a execute they use (often), and secondly because they have a reverse execute passive (10% more damage at 100% HP, going down 1% each 10%.) So in general I think most people can keep running bloodthirsty, but it’s not a clear cut choice anymore.

Jodynn

Not to mention the number of people running bloodthirsty versus infused, if more people deal amped damage later you are losing damage burst upfront, so you want a healthy region of infused and bloodthirsty.

Pretty much if you are an execute class use bloodthirsty, otherwise help them get to execute by using infused.

Sorc is not an execute class if you are thinking this just because they have an execute, infused really shines on sorc because of their reverse execute and can really help burst things down for others to benefit most from others bloodthirsty.

On dummy parses bloodthirsty will be better probably for everyone except maybe magsorc.

martijnlv40

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Not to mention the number of people running bloodthirsty versus infused, if more people deal amped damage later you are losing damage burst upfront, so you want a healthy region of infused and bloodthirsty.

Pretty much if you are an execute class use bloodthirsty, otherwise help them get to execute by using infused.

Sorc is not an execute class if you are thinking this just because they have an execute, infused really shines on sorc because of their reverse execute and can really help burst things down for others to benefit most from others bloodthirsty.

On dummy parses bloodthirsty will be better probably for everyone except maybe magsorc.

I think this is the final answer. I’m not good on my executes, but sorcs infused, nightblades bloodthirsty and the rest will have to mix it between them or within their own build.

Danksta

I'm guessing this doesn't take into account weapon/spell damage modifiers?

Jodynn

Danksta wrote: »

I'm guessing this doesn't take into account weapon/spell damage modifiers?

Both add a flat spell/weapon damage so, honestly buffs are irrelevant when comparing.

strata2

How does damage compare to arcane/robust? I thought infused and arcane/robust were pretty similar before for PVE dps?

Jodynn

strata2 wrote: »

How does damage compare to arcane/robust? I thought infused and arcane/robust were pretty similar before for PVE dps?

Same as always
Infused is superior to robust/arcane UNLESS specifically building all mag.

Looking at stam they get a bit more from infused due to modifiers but it's still superior in almost every build.

arcane adds 870 or something, 1 spell damage equals around 10 magicka ( very roughly something like that ) so 87 spell damage, infused gives 104. So unless you're building for mag modifiers, it's going to be better.

Not only that but in general there are more spell damage modifiers than magicka, you get minor whatever from war horn which is 10%, undaunted skill line depending if you are running 5-1-1 or whatever you'll get 3% and mage guild passive is 2% which a lot run inner light for the 5% + 2% and also shooting star so another 2%, but you get minor and major sorcery from templar and buff ( usually pots ) respectively ). So 10% versus 10% + 20% + some classes like sorcerer have + x% per skill.

Same for stam except stam like I said previously has more weapon damage modifiers like medium armor, and fighter's guild.

Point is more modifiers for damage and it scales higher.

Red_Feather

I use infused because it's easier to change a glyph to change my build than change a trait.

Bloodthirsty... Now it's got such mediocre returns why shackle yourself like that.

Luckylancer

They are close

VoidCommander

Very interesting to hear the execute case for bloodthirsty. Because it is a scaling bonus now, it does mean that execute classes may want to focus on it more closely.

Soundinfinite

I've been doing a lot of testing...Bloodthirsty is still good. It is still strong and for Execute heavy builds like Nightblades and Templars it will still be very BIS since they are end fight loaded DPS and it maximizes this. That Bloodthirsty takes over as the most powerful trait roughly half way through the fight makes it more EVEN DAMAGE instead of having a flat DPS that just SPIKES ultra high at the end...it actually makes it more viable in a wider range of Live fights.

Bloodthirsty was really only BIS for Sunspire and Kynes Aegis for all 3 jewelry pieces currently, because of the amount of health the bosses had made the back end 25% high burn worth it. Dummies, because you were soloing them, it made it BIS...but in live, for 4-Man Content, and most older Trials or because of adds and trial mechanics, not using bloodthirsty or only 1-2 out of the 3 was actually a much better option.

As for the Sorc, you actually want to fight that 10% Damage loss of Amplitude. Bloodthirsty now does this. A sorc should always have 1 Jewelry Piece Bloodthirsty no matter what to simply Off-Set the 10% Amplitude Passive. As it is at 10% until 90% Health which is the same cut-off for Bloodthirsty to Start Upping Spell damage. They work Harmoniously together. This way your parse isn't a constant downward DPS trend, with your lowest DPS output at the end of the fight, where on live, your DPS normally matters the most. There is still a DPS loss from roughly 90%-70% or so, but then that 1 Bloodthirsty ring will start pumping out enough extra spell damage to offset the loss of power and your DPS will raise back to start level output.

Executes carry more weight now. Unlike currently where the Sorc can get away with dropping their execute for other Damage output or buff skill and retain most the same DPS as using their execute (only marginally losing DPS) I am finding a wider gap in not having the execute compared to having it. As your overall damage output is no-longer spiking at the end of the fight, to retain strong level output the finisher must be used.

I think, people just got used to the GOD-Like power at 25% Health where bloodthirsty would kick-in and suddenly everything did 30% more damage and you were also in execute so your executes would do insane damage and suddenly your DPS would skyrocket 6-10k against the dummy and you would burn 6.5k Health in 20 seconds flat. The change to bloodthirsty has made that feeling and design and DPS gain go away. Instead it is a gradual raise in output that is further enhanced with an execute but still, very, very much worth it.

Gaggin

Its worth mentioning that you still want to do more damage in execute cus those phases are typically the hardest.

Nevasca

Gaggin wrote: »

Its worth mentioning that you still want to do more damage in execute cus those phases are typically the hardest.

Exactly. Even if in theory both did the same dps in the end, having bloodthirsty would still be more beneficial because it's on execute phases where you need a lot of damage.

Soundinfinite

I want to chime in here, on PTS the spell/weapon damage Bloodthirsty gives you does not go into your Spell/Weapon Damage resource pool on PTS....thus it operates like Spell Strategist for Magicka, as a de-buff to the target and not a gain in power.

Due to this, buffs like Minor/Major Sorcery/Brutality the Sorc Passive and Fighter's Guild Passives do not work against Bloodthirsty's Damage.

This makes the chart incorrect, and the threshold of where Bloodthristy Overtakes Infused MUCH MUCH LOWER.

Basically Below 30% Health or around the same 25% threshold as before is where Bloodthirsty BEGINS (Yes only Begins) to overtake Infused power. And the amount of power it adds is minuscule compared to the 10% x 3 =30% buff to damage it used to kick in at this threshold.

It is stronger on Magicka than it is on Stamina by a wide margin.

It is massively nerfed and under-performing.

Stamina should likely never use it and on Magicka, possibly a Necro and Templar might invest in it due to their class design and how their executes and power work. A Sorc counterbalancing the Amplitude Passive (Which it does do a nice job at accomplishing but you don't want to use more than 1 jewelry piece for this on a Sorc) can utilize it somewher. But otherwise magicka should also stay clear of Bloodthirsty.

For Stamina infused is hands down now BIS.

For Magicka you are left mostly with the argument of how organized your team is. If they have excellent Warhorn Uptimes (OR you are parsing against a dummy which gives 100% Warhorn Uptimes) then Arcane is virtually equal to Infused (except on a Sorc which further buffs spell damage). If you are doing training runs, prog groups, or pugs Infused will likely be the strongest choice as buff uptimes will not be maximized.

Bloodthirsty needs a buff.

Just wanted to update considering my previous post was very much in favor of Bloodthirsty still...but the more I test, and move through different classes, the more information I have amassed and come to a different conclusion. (Also I did the maths..hehehe)

ExistingRug61

Soundinfinite wrote: »

I want to chime in here, on PTS the spell/weapon damage Bloodthirsty gives you does not go into your Spell/Weapon Damage resource pool on PTS....thus it operates like Spell Strategist for Magicka, as a de-buff to the target and not a gain in power.

Due to this, buffs like Minor/Major Sorcery/Brutality the Sorc Passive and Fighter's Guild Passives do not work against Bloodthirsty's Damage.

This makes the chart incorrect, and the threshold of where Bloodthristy Overtakes Infused MUCH MUCH LOWER.

I was fairly sure that things like Spell Strategist were affected by damage buffs, see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N3zsDLf_4s
where @T3hasiangod tested it.

I assume (but haven't tested it myself as I don't have PTS), that new bloodthirsty would be no different.

Also, regarding

Soundinfinite wrote: »

As for the Sorc, you actually want to fight that 10% Damage loss of Amplitude. Bloodthirsty now does this. A sorc should always have 1 Jewellery Piece Bloodthirsty no matter what to simply Off-Set the 10% Amplitude Passive.

Using Bloodthirsty to counteract Amplitude isn't necessarily the best idea, as these effects are now multiplicative. As such you want them to be bigger at the same time so they enhance each other. However, looking at the linked spreadsheet in the second post, bloodthirsty may simply be strong enough to be better than the flat boost from infused anyway even taking Amplitude into consideration.

If we consider the average weapon/spell damage gained over the whole health range in 1% increments, both with and without Amplitude, and ignoring any other execute effects, like dual wield passive or specific skills etc, we get
(I just got the values from the linked spreadsheet and scaled by amplitude and then averaged)

Without Amplitude
3x Infused: 321
3x Bloodthirsty: ~371.7
Bloodthirsty average is approx 15.7% higher than infused

With Amplitude
3x Infused: ~335.6
3x Bloodthirsty: ~382.1
Bloodthirsty average is approx 13.8% higher than infused

So in both cases Bloodthirsty is higher, but the relative gain is less if you have Amplitude.
Conversely, as you add more and more execute effects, this will further widen the relative gain between Bloodthirsty and Infused.

Notes: This is a simple average over the health range so does not account for the facts that you will spend less time in the execute range due to higher damage from other skills. Furthermore this is a purely mathematical analysis and is not taking into account other factors that others have mentioned like it being desirable to get through execute phases faster.

Soundinfinite

@ExistingRug61

Thank you for the video. I did have misinformation. I have actually been trying to design a Parsing build to test this exact information but have not been able to isolate the damage the set provides on its own, very hard with Spell Strategist because it gives 258 Spell damage in its first traits. So figuring out which spell damage is being buffed the Proc or the sets damage is something I hadn't yet managed.

However, BLOODTHIRSTY can be tested easily. Create a build without weapons that hasn't any other damage modifiers, spell damage, penetration, crit (besids the native 10% crit of base), etc so forth, so the only spell damage that would be buffed by the major/minor system is bloodthirsty itself. I did this and parsed multiple time with Major Sorcery and without (13 min+ parses each on 3 mil dummies....it took lots of time)

and yes, you are correct, and my above statement is incorrect.

The Minor/Major DOES buff Bloodthirsty even though it is not in your resource pool. This makes me believe the same for Spell Strategist or any type of spell damage (elemental etc.) that does not enter your resource pool is also buffed by this system.

Thank you for the information.

Now, I have been testing my normal buiild using 3 bloodthirsty, 3 Infused, 2 Blood 1 infused, and 2 infused 1 blood/

So far 2 infused and 1 blood is giving my consistently higher parses on my MagSorc.


Can you explain for me your average system. I know you said you pulled it from the chart, but I am trying to understand you ratios.

Bloodthirsty is = 250 Spell Damage linearly divided over 90% = 250/90= 2.778 Spell Damage for every 1% Health missing

With Major/Minor Sorcery and 10% Sorcery Buff from Passives to Spell Damage

1 Infused Ring provides 389 Spell Damage
1 Blooodthirsty Ring 100% Health= 243 Spell Damage
75% Health= 301 Spell Damage
50% Health= 399 Spell Damage
25% Health= 495 Spell Damage

Based on this Data Set:

Bloodthirsty is Averaging 360 Spell Damage over the course of the fight
Infused is 389 Spell Damage Constant.

I'm honestly trying to get true information to be knowledgeable in builds and explanations for my guild because there are already a lot of questions coming in.

Koubo

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

Not to mention the number of people running bloodthirsty versus infused, if more people deal amped damage later you are losing damage burst upfront, so you want a healthy region of infused and bloodthirsty.

Pretty much if you are an execute class use bloodthirsty, otherwise help them get to execute by using infused.

Sorc is not an execute class if you are thinking this just because they have an execute, infused really shines on sorc because of their reverse execute and can really help burst things down for others to benefit most from others bloodthirsty.

On dummy parses bloodthirsty will be better probably for everyone except maybe magsorc.

Stamplar have no execute and dont have eny reverse effect either. They just do their rotation from begining to the end

Milli_Rabbit

Bloodthristy is still better than infused for dps purely looking at statistics. The ONLY case where infused would be better is a boss fight where the majority of the danger is before roughly 50% health. If the danger is roughly the same throughout or more dangerous below 50%, Bloodthirsty is the best option.

Ivan04

Thank you for all the maths, very nice 👍 I was wondering about that myself. Might finally start using Bloodthirsty in pvp.

ExistingRug61

@Soundinfinite

My averages were just to compare the amount of spell/weapon damage you gain purely from three jewellery traits. It doesn't include the base amount you get from the glyph. I also didn't include any spell/weapon damage multipliers like brutality/sorcery or from passives as (provided these work on bloodthirsty) these would apply evenly to both cases so would cancel out for the purpose of comparing the traits relative strength.

One other note: it appears that there have been two suggestions to how this scaling with health works, either
a) the bonus increases linearly from 0 for missing health below 90%, bonus starts at 0 at 90% health and increases to 250 at 0% health, so a gain of 2.778 per 1%. (This is how the first post and you refer have been considering it)
b) bonus starts at 90% but scales linearly with missing health. ie: at 90% when it starts there is already 10% missing so the bonus starts at 25 and then increases to 250 at 0%. This is what the spreadsheet in the second post had.
I am not sure which of these is correct (the patch notes could be interpreted as either) , but for my calculations I was using the second as I was referring to the spreadsheet. If it is actually the first case my values will be off (they would be a slight overestimate for bloodthirsty).

For example

Infused
Amount gained from one trait is 0.6 * 174 = 104.4. As it is constant the average across the range will simply be this value. So from three traits it would be 313.2 (Note: I had a small error here in my previous post as I just used the infused amount from the spreadsheet in post #2, which had it listed as 107 instead of 104.4 and hence had 321 instead of 313.2 for three).

Bloodthirsty
Again this was just the value from the trait with no modifiers. so using the second option for bloodthirsty from above I simply calculated the amount you would gain from the trait at 1% increments
ie: at 100%:0, 99%: 0, ...... 91%:0, 90%:25, 89%: 27.5, 88%: 30 ..... 1%:247.5, 0%:250
and then averaged these which was 123.9 per trait, and then multiplied by 3 for three traits, which came out to 371.7
(again this would be slightly lower if using the other option for Bloodthirsty)

I then calculate the relative difference between bloodthirsty and infused, just to show the relative power (this was the percentage).

I basically then repeated the above and also considered amplitude as well. This was done just by getting all the 1% increment values above and multiplying by the amplitude bonus (ie: 1.1 at 100%, 1.09 at 90% etc) before performing the average and multiply by 3.

The reason I was considering Amplitude specifically was because it is a multiplicative effect with bloodthirsty meant that it actually counteracts the gain of bloodthirsty so would make it weaker. This is what I specifically wanted to investigate - was this effect enough to make bloodthirsty worse numerically?
Its not, as bloodthirsty is simply a high enough value to still be better numerically (although the relative gain was less).

Now, as I said this was purely mathematical approach and ignores a bunch of things that effect what will actually be best when parsing/playing, including
Mathematically:
a) other "damage done" modifiers when I consider amplitude, which would lower the relative effect of Amplitude
b) other execute effects, which would further scale bloodthirsty at low health and boost its average gain.
Playing effects::
c) anything that changes the amount of time you spend at each health range. This includes bloodthirsty itself, other executes, rotation changes with health.
d) whether or not it may be beneficial to go through execute phases faster due to these being more dangerous.

For me it was just to get a relative idea of where the sit mathematically to provide a starting point for actual testing and potentially eliminate an option if it was significantly worse.
So at the end of the day if you have found that 2x infused and 1x bloodthirsty is giving you the best results, then that is answer for you.

Kolzki

The old blood thirsty is calculated as a damage taken debuff and is calcuated like major/minor vulnerability. You do not get diminishing returns with damage done multipliers like those from champion points, brutality and slayer buffs. Three of the old bloodthirsty is exactly like having a colussus debuff up for the whole of execute.

I just checked the amplitude passive on execute and it's definitely calculated as a "damage done" buff rather than a "damage taken" debuff. After CP i'm getting a little under a 6% buff to actual damage from it at 100% health. As has already been said, using the new bloodthirsty to counteract the loss of amplitude at low health may not be the best idea. You want high stats while amplitude is active (damage done multiplies by the base damage). Does that make infused better on a sorc? I don't know.

techprince

So 1bt/2 infused for stam and 1bt/2 arcane for mag?

VoidCommander

techprince wrote: »

So 1bt/2 infused for stam and 1bt/2 arcane for mag?

You could do the arcane trait for mag if you are specifically building for max magicka. IE: a lot of mages guild abilities on your bar. Otherwise you would likely be better off using infused.

Jodynn

In PvE vet trials and dungeons Bloodthirsty is pretty much always better now.

VoidCommander

I'll have to redo the math, but with minor and major sorcery, infused might still be comparable.

Kolzki

Bloodthirsty: Increased the bonus Weapon and Spell Damage this trait grants against targets to a maximum of 350 per trait, up from 250 per trait. This was to make up for the fact the trait does not inherit percent increases to these stats, such as Brutality or Sorcery.

Are there other stat increase against targets that do not inherit buffs? Does this apply to other things like the new nightblade passive when attacking from flanks?

Koubo

Kolzki wrote: »

Bloodthirsty: Increased the bonus Weapon and Spell Damage this trait grants against targets to a maximum of 350 per trait, up from 250 per trait. This was to make up for the fact the trait does not inherit percent increases to these stats, such as Brutality or Sorcery.

Are there other stat increase against targets that do not inherit buffs? Does this apply to other things like the new nightblade passive when attacking from flanks?

i even thought someone did few test and conclude the effect was affected by buffs. So now, how is BT vs Infused :< ?

VoidCommander

Koubo wrote: »

Kolzki wrote: »

Bloodthirsty: Increased the bonus Weapon and Spell Damage this trait grants against targets to a maximum of 350 per trait, up from 250 per trait. This was to make up for the fact the trait does not inherit percent increases to these stats, such as Brutality or Sorcery.

Are there other stat increase against targets that do not inherit buffs? Does this apply to other things like the new nightblade passive when attacking from flanks?

i even thought someone did few test and conclude the effect was affected by buffs. So now, how is BT vs Infused :< ?

I have not verified that blood thirsty is not effected by spell damage buffs. However, if the patch notes are to be believed, blood thirsty shouldn’t be affected by sorcery/brutality. That said, an infused bonus with JUST major sorcery results in about 125 spell/weapon damage. The new bloodthirsty averages 157 for its duration. This results in a 96 spell/weapon damage advantage for bloodthirsty, which I would argue would possibly be cause to use bloodthirsty even on classes that do not rely on executes as that is a much more significant difference. If you do not normally run major sorcery, then it is an even larger difference. If you are in a group with a templar, the difference becomes slightly smaller.

Koubo

VoidCommander wrote: »

Koubo wrote: »

Kolzki wrote: »

Bloodthirsty: Increased the bonus Weapon and Spell Damage this trait grants against targets to a maximum of 350 per trait, up from 250 per trait. This was to make up for the fact the trait does not inherit percent increases to these stats, such as Brutality or Sorcery.

Are there other stat increase against targets that do not inherit buffs? Does this apply to other things like the new nightblade passive when attacking from flanks?

i even thought someone did few test and conclude the effect was affected by buffs. So now, how is BT vs Infused :< ?

I have not verified that blood thirsty is not effected by spell damage buffs. However, if the patch notes are to be believed, blood thirsty shouldn’t be affected by sorcery/brutality. That said, an infused bonus with JUST major sorcery results in about 125 spell/weapon damage. The new bloodthirsty averages 157 for its duration. This results in a 96 spell/weapon damage advantage for bloodthirsty, which I would argue would possibly be cause to use bloodthirsty even on classes that do not rely on executes as that is a much more significant difference. If you do not normally run major sorcery, then it is an even larger difference. If you are in a group with a sorcerer, the difference becomes slightly smaller.

Make sense, I suppose. I cant loggin PTS right now but i wana try few parsing because i'm concerned by some changes and BT is not the only one.
thanks