Rename "Support" to something where Vigor fits the theme

FrancisCrawford

As per many other threads, the Rapid Maneuvers change is a terrible idea, which will enrage existing players (especially ones who have alts from whom the skill will be taken away!), frustrate new ones, and generally reduce the number of characters that ever get created and leveled.

On the other hand, making Vigor more accessible is actually a good idea.

So the obvious fix -- as has already been suggested multiple times -- is to move Vigor into being the first skill in the Support Line. If this imbalances the number of skills in the two lines, so be it; that's a MUCH smaller problem than taking Rapids away from a large fraction of all characters and new players. And that drawback is not even needed; Revealing Flare would fit just fine into Assault.

Renaming "Support" to "Protection", for example, would create a home for Vigor quite nicely. Vigor, Barrier, Guard and Siege Shield are all skills whose role is some kind of protection.

Of course, some care should be taken in the renaming. For example, it would probably not help to rebrand the Support line as "Automated Response", "Overworked Minion", or "Permanently Unanswered Ticket".

peacenote

I was going to suggest this as well!

MincVinyl

You are saying players will stop making characters with the sole reason of having to spend a short time in pvp for a slight QoL ability not used in combat.

Personally Id say having people have to log in and out of 18 toons every single day to upgrade mounts over 180 days would be far worse than a short ap farm.

DrScott59

Agree. This change as is will take away Rapids, which I use constantly and makes travel bearable, from EVERY one of my toons. The term “enraged” doesn’t begin to cover it.

FrancisCrawford

MincVinyl wrote: »

You are saying players will stop making characters with the sole reason of having to spend a short time in pvp for a slight QoL ability not used in combat.

Personally Id say having people have to log in and out of 18 toons every single day to upgrade mounts over 180 days would be far worse than a short ap farm.

I don't agree with your characterizations of "short" or "slight".

I think it's a massive QoL ability for people who actually ride around the PvE landscape. And ranking up to 5 in PvP skill lines, on a low-level character, on a slow horse, not during an MYM event, could take a lot of hours doing boring things.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

As per many other threads, the Rapid Maneuvers change is a terrible idea, which will enrage existing players (especially ones who have alts from whom the skill will be taken away!), frustrate new ones, and generally reduce the number of characters that ever get created and leveled.

On the other hand, making Vigor more accessible is actually a good idea.

So the obvious fix -- as has already been suggested multiple times -- is to move Vigor into being the first skill in the Support Line. If this imbalances the number of skills in the two lines, so be it; that's a MUCH smaller problem than taking Rapids away from a large fraction of all characters and new players. And that drawback is not even needed; Revealing Flare would fit just fine into Assault.

Renaming "Support" to "Protection", for example, would create a home for Vigor quite nicely. Vigor, Barrier, Guard and Siege Shield are all skills whose role is some kind of protection.

Of course, some care should be taken in the renaming. For example, it would probably not help to rebrand the Support line as "Automated Response", "Overworked Minion", or "Permanently Unanswered Ticket".

Woulnt rapid fit better in support
It buff people and isnt combat oriented

Also vigor has a self heal morph wich is all but supportive

FrancisCrawford

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

As per many other threads, the Rapid Maneuvers change is a terrible idea, which will enrage existing players (especially ones who have alts from whom the skill will be taken away!), frustrate new ones, and generally reduce the number of characters that ever get created and leveled.

On the other hand, making Vigor more accessible is actually a good idea.

So the obvious fix -- as has already been suggested multiple times -- is to move Vigor into being the first skill in the Support Line. If this imbalances the number of skills in the two lines, so be it; that's a MUCH smaller problem than taking Rapids away from a large fraction of all characters and new players. And that drawback is not even needed; Revealing Flare would fit just fine into Assault.

Renaming "Support" to "Protection", for example, would create a home for Vigor quite nicely. Vigor, Barrier, Guard and Siege Shield are all skills whose role is some kind of protection.

Of course, some care should be taken in the renaming. For example, it would probably not help to rebrand the Support line as "Automated Response", "Overworked Minion", or "Permanently Unanswered Ticket".

Woulnt rapid fit better in support
It buff people and isnt combat oriented

Also vigor has a self heal morph wich is all but supportive

Hence my idea to renane a category.

But yes -- if we keep the old names, then the one that belongs in "support" could be the one that doesn't have a self-only morph.

DrScott59

Life without Rapids is not worth living. JK. But it's like swimming in molasses, very frustrating to go that slow.

I don't do PVP, no interest in it.... So I spent a few hours repairing walls this week and at least have my (3) primary toons up to the level where they will still have Rapids if exchanged with Vigor. So I'm safe for now, ha.

Apox

support already fits vigor

i sure as hell aint assaulting my team with heals.

FrancisCrawford

I wonder whether the problem is the Magicka Aid passive. Maybe they'd rather trash the QoL of a HUGE fraction of the player base rather than make 5-10% extra magicka regen more widely available, and also rather than taking the trouble to change that passive.

tsaescishoeshiner

"Barrier, Vigor, & Miscellaneous WIP"

Kittytravel

Apox wrote: »

support already fits vigor

i sure as hell aint assaulting my team with heals.

Healing yourself is still more assault related than making your horse go vroom vroom though.
Just move revealing flare into assault and put Rapids into Support line rank 1.

Apox

horse go vroom vroom. there is no escape. i will destroy you.

assault.

FrancisCrawford

Apox wrote: »

horse go vroom vroom. there is no escape. i will destroy you.

assault.

We're all mounted infantry.

Indeed, when attacking a resource I usually ride straight into the tower, fight whoever follows me in, and proceed from there. And when I do it differently, it sometimes doesn't go as well.

DarcyMardin

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

You are saying players will stop making characters with the sole reason of having to spend a short time in pvp for a slight QoL ability not used in combat.

Personally Id say having people have to log in and out of 18 toons every single day to upgrade mounts over 180 days would be far worse than a short ap farm.

I don't agree with your characterizations of "short" or "slight".

I think it's a massive QoL ability for people who actually ride around the PvE landscape. And ranking up to 5 in PvP skill lines, on a low-level character, on a slow horse, not during an MYM event, could take a lot of hours doing boring things.

I agree that the effort that must be spent is neither short nor slight. I just tested this, and I wasn’t even starting from scratch — indeed, my fully-leveled magsorc started as assault/support level 4 when this change was announced. Since she is one of many alts of mine who has used rapids for years and whom I can’t imagine without that skill, I’ve been in Cyrodiil for the past several nights trying to make level 5.

Unfortunately, each night her alliance possessed only 3-4 keeps (and no elder scrolls). No quest towns were in their possession, either. I ran around on my horse (using rapids) doing quests wherever I could sneak in without getting killed. 250 AP per quest doesn’t result in quick progression. Doing a delve first put it up to 300, which didn’t make much of a difference.

I also did a bunch of scouting quests, thankful that I had both a fully-level mount and rapids. Still took ages to do a single scouting quest, particularly during the runs where I got spotted by real PvPers and slaughtered. My husband, who also rarely PvPs, came on the final night to help me knock over a few resources, and with the aid of a couple of other stragglers, we managed 2 take-overs of undefended keeps. Finally, when this morning dawned, some guild group started reclaiming territory and I tagged along on an elder scroll run-back, which, after 3 long nights, pushed me a smidgeon over the edge into level 5 from level 4.

I’m sure it’s easier when your alliance is dominating the map and you can just hang out in the zerg. But this slog isn’t trivial and, for us non-PvPers, it isn’t fun.

Again, ZOS, please make the proposed change go away! There have been several excellent suggestions made about other possibilities for making vigor available earlier to stamina characters. I dread the thought of having to endure this torture with my many other alts on my two accounts on both EU and NA.

MincVinyl

Hard for vigor to fit "support" when it doesn't heal allies

yes, echoing is a meme

1. 2s ticks opens you to easy burst in solo combat
2. the tooltip is much less
3. the heal is spread out over longer time, so it is even less hps
4. unmorphed still does 3% more hps as well still with an 8m range....tbh any allies farther than that idc about

I would run echoing, but in solo gameplay it means you will be at a very severe disadvantage.....lemme just go port out and morph change every half hour when people want to group. Resolving on the other hand is so short, that alot of times it is hard to attack back when under severe pressure when counting on resolving.

idk

I do not see how this change would frustrate new players since they would not know any different. I also see it as having very little effect on people creating alts. If anything, life without rapids is a minor inconvenience with new characters. Heck, I often wait until a character hits Lvl 20 or 30 before going to get rapids.

If this change was back before Zos significantly decreased the ammount of AP required per AvA level and significantly increased the amount of AP we earned then this change would have a solid impact. As it is, it is quick and easy to get the levels to gain rapids after this change goes live which means the change is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

MincVinyl

idk wrote: »

I do not see how this change would frustrate new players since they would not know any different. I also see it as having very little effect on people creating alts. If anything, life without rapids is a minor inconvenience with new characters. Heck, I often wait until a character hits Lvl 20 or 30 before going to get rapids.

If this change was back before Zos significantly decreased the ammount of AP required per AvA level and significantly increased the amount of AP we earned then this change would have a solid impact. As it is, it is quick and easy to get the levels to gain rapids after this change goes live which means the change is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

Gotta add in that it is less than 100kap, which most people make in an hour of farming.

FrancisCrawford

idk wrote: »

I do not see how this change would frustrate new players since they would not know any different. I also see it as having very little effect on people creating alts. If anything, life without rapids is a minor inconvenience with new characters. Heck, I often wait until a character hits Lvl 20 or 30 before going to get rapids.

If this change was back before Zos significantly decreased the ammount of AP required per AvA level and significantly increased the amount of AP we earned then this change would have a solid impact. As it is, it is quick and easy to get the levels to gain rapids after this change goes live which means the change is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

Being bored is frustrating. One does not need to know that the game was previously less boring to feel bad about being bored.

Particularly boring and frustrating, I imagine, would be trying to gain AP in Cyrodiil on horses that are so much slower than other people's that fights would be over before you arrive.

Admittedly, I don't know for sure, in that I've never experienced that. And I probably never will, for if this change goes through, I'll probably never level another character.

MincVinyl

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see how this change would frustrate new players since they would not know any different. I also see it as having very little effect on people creating alts. If anything, life without rapids is a minor inconvenience with new characters. Heck, I often wait until a character hits Lvl 20 or 30 before going to get rapids.

If this change was back before Zos significantly decreased the ammount of AP required per AvA level and significantly increased the amount of AP we earned then this change would have a solid impact. As it is, it is quick and easy to get the levels to gain rapids after this change goes live which means the change is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

Being bored is frustrating. One does not need to know that the game was previously less boring to feel bad about being bored.

Particularly boring and frustrating, I imagine, would be trying to gain AP in Cyrodiil on horses that are so much slower than other people's that fights would be over before you arrive.

Admittedly, I don't know for sure, in that I've never experienced that. And I probably never will, for if this change goes through, I'll probably never level another character.

So no complaints about having to log in and out of 18 characters daily to do mount training?
Having to log in and out to use transmute stones just to go back to crafter?
Having to go to skill/morph change alters instead of being an in inventory thing?
Having a merchant that cant repair armor?

I can go into the annoying pve things I have had to do over the past 5-6 years playing the game, those would far beyond be boring over a simple hour long ap farm for a slight QoL skill that is not needed in combat.

idk

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see how this change would frustrate new players since they would not know any different. I also see it as having very little effect on people creating alts. If anything, life without rapids is a minor inconvenience with new characters. Heck, I often wait until a character hits Lvl 20 or 30 before going to get rapids.

If this change was back before Zos significantly decreased the ammount of AP required per AvA level and significantly increased the amount of AP we earned then this change would have a solid impact. As it is, it is quick and easy to get the levels to gain rapids after this change goes live which means the change is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

Being bored is frustrating. One does not need to know that the game was previously less boring to feel bad about being bored.

Particularly boring and frustrating, I imagine, would be trying to gain AP in Cyrodiil on horses that are so much slower than other people's that fights would be over before you arrive.

Admittedly, I don't know for sure, in that I've never experienced that. And I probably never will, for if this change goes through, I'll probably never level another character.

How can something be labeled boring and frustrating when it has not been experienced? It takes less than 100k AP, as MincVinyl pointed out. The time it takes to grind that is a fraction of the time it takes to grind any other skill line in the game.

FrancisCrawford

MincVinyl wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see how this change would frustrate new players since they would not know any different. I also see it as having very little effect on people creating alts. If anything, life without rapids is a minor inconvenience with new characters. Heck, I often wait until a character hits Lvl 20 or 30 before going to get rapids.

If this change was back before Zos significantly decreased the ammount of AP required per AvA level and significantly increased the amount of AP we earned then this change would have a solid impact. As it is, it is quick and easy to get the levels to gain rapids after this change goes live which means the change is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

Being bored is frustrating. One does not need to know that the game was previously less boring to feel bad about being bored.

Particularly boring and frustrating, I imagine, would be trying to gain AP in Cyrodiil on horses that are so much slower than other people's that fights would be over before you arrive.

Admittedly, I don't know for sure, in that I've never experienced that. And I probably never will, for if this change goes through, I'll probably never level another character.

So no complaints about having to log in and out of 18 characters daily to do mount training?
Having to log in and out to use transmute stones just to go back to crafter?
Having to go to skill/morph change alters instead of being an in inventory thing?
Having a merchant that cant repair armor?

I can go into the annoying pve things I have had to do over the past 5-6 years playing the game, those would far beyond be boring over a simple hour long ap farm for a slight QoL skill that is not needed in combat.

One hour to farm AP (with a slow horse)? That's a LOT less than it would take many people.

Now, perhaps it's your view that ZoS should only cater to players as elite as yourself. I humbly hope they don't agree.

FrancisCrawford

idk wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see how this change would frustrate new players since they would not know any different. I also see it as having very little effect on people creating alts. If anything, life without rapids is a minor inconvenience with new characters. Heck, I often wait until a character hits Lvl 20 or 30 before going to get rapids.

If this change was back before Zos significantly decreased the ammount of AP required per AvA level and significantly increased the amount of AP we earned then this change would have a solid impact. As it is, it is quick and easy to get the levels to gain rapids after this change goes live which means the change is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

Being bored is frustrating. One does not need to know that the game was previously less boring to feel bad about being bored.

Particularly boring and frustrating, I imagine, would be trying to gain AP in Cyrodiil on horses that are so much slower than other people's that fights would be over before you arrive.

Admittedly, I don't know for sure, in that I've never experienced that. And I probably never will, for if this change goes through, I'll probably never level another character.

How can something be labeled boring and frustrating when it has not been experienced? It takes less than 100k AP, as MincVinyl pointed out. The time it takes to grind that is a fraction of the time it takes to grind any other skill line in the game.

I'm extrapolating from the boredom and frustration of grinding AP using a fast horse, with special reference to the problem of the time between fights showing up on the map and the fight being over being less than the time it takes to ride and join in.

FrancisCrawford

By the way, I've gotten a little over 3 million AP in the entire time I've played ESO. The vast majority of that is via Midyear Madness. So, without the MYM buff, that's something like 300K AP per year I've played ESO.

I'm quite sure I've spent a LOT more than 3 hours per year, on average, in Cyrodiil.

So I don't agree that this is simply a 1 hour grind.

artal

It would also be nice if people JUST interested in pvp to get dungeon sets just by doing pvp 😉
I mean i really dont understand this, you dont like pvp so it would be fair if you get all from it for free even though its super quick to get to rank 5.
On the other hand its not super fast getting undaunted and sets frim dungeons you need for pvp yet you rarely see posts [snip] about it.
Cmon guys, just do 10 bgs while you level your char and you are rank 5. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

FrancisCrawford

artal wrote: »

It would also be nice if people JUST interested in pvp to get dungeon sets just by doing pvp 😉
I mean i really dont understand this, you dont like pvp so it would be fair if you get all from it for free even though its super quick to get to rank 5.
On the other hand its not super fast getting undaunted and sets frim dungeons you need for pvp yet you rarely see posts [snip] about it.
Cmon guys, just do 10 bgs while you level your char and you are rank 5. [snip]

Doing a BG gives 10,000 guaranteed AP? I thought that wasn't true for the losing team.

FrancisCrawford

artal wrote: »

It would also be nice if people JUST interested in pvp to get dungeon sets just by doing pvp 😉
I mean i really dont understand this, you dont like pvp so it would be fair if you get all from it for free even though its super quick to get to rank 5.
On the other hand its not super fast getting undaunted and sets frim dungeons you need for pvp yet you rarely see posts [snip] about it.
Cmon guys, just do 10 bgs while you level your char and you are rank 5. [snip]

In any case -- a multi-hour per-character grind for Rapid Maneuvers is going to make the game significantly less fun for a LOT of people. If you think shrinking the player base is a good idea, you should support the change. Otherwise, you should not.

artal

Its multi days, weeks and months of unfun grind for people that just want to pvp.
1 hour to get to rank 5 per char is hardly something you could call grind. And if that is reason for player base to shrink i realy dont know what to tell you except that people who feel that way are just lazy and spoiled.

FrancisCrawford

artal wrote: »

1 hour to get to rank 5 per char

I keep seeing that figure in this thread. Is there any arithmetic to support it?

Also, if it really does bear any resemblance to reality, then why not just leave Vigor at Rank 5 like it is now?

GrumpyDuckling

idk wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I do not see how this change would frustrate new players since they would not know any different. I also see it as having very little effect on people creating alts. If anything, life without rapids is a minor inconvenience with new characters. Heck, I often wait until a character hits Lvl 20 or 30 before going to get rapids.

If this change was back before Zos significantly decreased the ammount of AP required per AvA level and significantly increased the amount of AP we earned then this change would have a solid impact. As it is, it is quick and easy to get the levels to gain rapids after this change goes live which means the change is nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

Being bored is frustrating. One does not need to know that the game was previously less boring to feel bad about being bored.

Particularly boring and frustrating, I imagine, would be trying to gain AP in Cyrodiil on horses that are so much slower than other people's that fights would be over before you arrive.

Admittedly, I don't know for sure, in that I've never experienced that. And I probably never will, for if this change goes through, I'll probably never level another character.

How can something be labeled boring and frustrating when it has not been experienced? It takes less than 100k AP, as MincVinyl pointed out. The time it takes to grind that is a fraction of the time it takes to grind any other skill line in the game.

The poster was clear that they "imagine" it would be boring and frustrating. The sentence literally says, "Particularly boring and frustrating, I imagine, would be trying to gain AP in Cyrodiil on horses that are so much slower than other people's that fights would be over before you arrive."

xXMeowMeowXx

I like the change tbh because if it gets more PvEers Cyro and BGs maybe some will stay. 🐙

For others just hit BGs to get it fast.