Medusa Set Change

MashmalloMan

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

If they changed it then Arx Corinium would be the only dungeon in the entire game to NOT follow the one heavy, one medium, one light set breakdown.

Why should they break established precedent simply to appease some folks who can't bring themselves to farm one of the easiest dungeons in the game?

And if someone then argues "Well, simply change Lamia's to Heavy!" then you are directly nerfing anyone who had already farmed that in body pieces, essentially dumpstering their entire set. That is hardly fair.

IMO, having sets drop in an off-weight adds nuance to builds and can force hard choices. Hard choices are, basically by definition, the most interesting choices and they are a hallmark of good game design.

Yes, although it may be possible, for your reasons alone they shouldn't.

What ZOS should do however:

• Add minor force to Fire Rune and balance accordingly.
• Create a light armor set equivalent to Tzogvin in a future DLC.

Kinda off topic below:
What I find interesting is this set change makes it easy to confirm and quantify how much ZOS values minor force in a spreadsheet when balancing sets. Since it's a static set active 24/7 and has crit it can be directly compared to Mother's Sorrow.

Static set bonuses like Mother's Sorrow, Fortified Brass and Law of Julianos are calculated based on 1-4 piece bonus values, the multiplier of which is about 2.325 in all cases. (Also, if crit 1-4 piece bonuses are nerfed in a future patch, expect MS, Medusa and sets like Tzogvin/Berserking Warrior to be nerfed as a result since they're defined by the 1-4 piece 833 value.)

Eg. 1937 (Mothers Sorrow) / 833 (1-4 piece crit bonus) = 2.325

1937 - 900 (Medusa) = 1037 crit

Minor Force = 1037 crit which is 1.244x a 1-4 piece bonus.

Sets like Berserking Warrior and Tzogvin get a little more bang for their overall power budget "buck" because they have proc conditions. This patch, they seemed to have been brought under the same category which means they probably follow the same power budget despite slightly different proc conditions and values. (500ms potential proc rate, stacks up to 10x for 5s).

Berserking Warrior provides 3050 crit (3.661 multiplier). This is about 57.4% stronger than a static bonus like MS.

Berserking Warrior and Medusa actually show that Tzogvin is probably a little under value IF BW and Tzogvin are valued the same.

Tzogvins 1340 crit shows a 1.608 multiplier. Leaving 2.053 remaining out of the 3.661 available to Berserking Warrior yet Minor Force as illustrated from Medusa is equal to 1.244. Remaining missing power budget on Tzogvin is 0.809.

Pick from a number of the below conclusions:

• 0.809 of the power budget multiplier is missing on Tzogvin. Berserking Warrior and Medusa make standards clear for how Minor Force and almost identical proc conditions are calculated. Tzogvin's crit should be buffed to 2013 (2.417 multiplier) as a result.
• Berserking Warrior may be over valued at 57.4% more than a static bonus as seen when compared to Mother's Sorrow which would explain why Tzogvin is so far behind. Berserking Warrior should be nerfed.
• Tzogvin loses a bit of it's power budget because although the proc conditions are nearly identical between Berserking Warrior and Tzogvin, dealing crit damage every 500ms is much easier than dealing melee damage every 500ms resulting in the power budget multiplier of Tzogvin being 2.852 instead of the 3.661 from BW which is 28.3% weaker, but 22.6% stronger than a static bonus set. This means nothing should change and both sets are in a good place.

My Solution and Conclusion:
Imo.. Tzogvin seems to be in a good place and Berserking Warrior is vastly over valued. The multiplier should not be 57.4% stronger than a static bonus or roughly 30% stronger than Tzogvin simply because it requires melee damage over crit damage. If Tzogvin is 22.6% stronger than a 5 piece bonus, I think Berserking Warrior should warrant 30-40% stronger than a 5 piece bonus because it requires a harder condition. This would result in the set offering 2518 - 2712 crit instead of 3050.

For whatever reason, ZOS went a little too far here imo by buffing the crit of Berserking Warrior from 2000 to 3050 completely outclassing Tzogvin, Mothers Sorrow and Medusa in terms of budget.

Koubo

MashmalloMan wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

If they changed it then Arx Corinium would be the only dungeon in the entire game to NOT follow the one heavy, one medium, one light set breakdown.

Why should they break established precedent simply to appease some folks who can't bring themselves to farm one of the easiest dungeons in the game?

And if someone then argues "Well, simply change Lamia's to Heavy!" then you are directly nerfing anyone who had already farmed that in body pieces, essentially dumpstering their entire set. That is hardly fair.

IMO, having sets drop in an off-weight adds nuance to builds and can force hard choices. Hard choices are, basically by definition, the most interesting choices and they are a hallmark of good game design.

Yes, although it may be possible, for your reasons alone they shouldn't.

What ZOS should do however:

• Add minor force to Fire Rune and balance accordingly.
• Create a light armor set equivalent to Tzogvin in a future DLC.

Kinda off topic below:
What I find interesting is this set change makes it easy to confirm and quantify how much ZOS values minor force in a spreadsheet when balancing sets. Since it's a static set active 24/7 and has crit it can be directly compared to Mother's Sorrow.

Static set bonuses like Mother's Sorrow, Fortified Brass and Law of Julianos are calculated based on 1-4 piece bonus values, the multiplier of which is about 2.325 in all cases. (Also, if crit 1-4 piece bonuses are nerfed in a future patch, expect MS, Medusa and sets like Tzogvin/Berserking Warrior to be nerfed as a result since they're defined by the 1-4 piece 833 value.)

Eg. 1937 (Mothers Sorrow) / 833 (1-4 piece crit bonus) = 2.325

1937 - 900 (Medusa) = 1037 crit

Minor Force = 1037 crit which is 1.244x a 1-4 piece bonus.

Sets like Berserking Warrior and Tzogvin get a little more bang for their overall power budget "buck" because they have proc conditions. This patch, they seemed to have been brought under the same category which means they probably follow the same power budget despite slightly different proc conditions and values. (500ms potential proc rate, stacks up to 10x for 5s).

Berserking Warrior provides 3050 crit (3.661 multiplier). This is about 57.4% stronger than a static bonus like MS.

Berserking Warrior and Medusa actually show that Tzogvin is probably a little under value IF BW and Tzogvin are valued the same.

Tzogvins 1340 crit shows a 1.608 multiplier. Leaving 2.053 remaining out of the 3.661 available to Berserking Warrior yet Minor Force as illustrated from Medusa is equal to 1.244. Remaining missing power budget on Tzogvin is 0.809.

Pick from a number of the below conclusions:

• 0.809 of the power budget multiplier is missing on Tzogvin. Berserking Warrior and Medusa make standards clear for how Minor Force and almost identical proc conditions are calculated. Tzogvin's crit should be buffed to 2013 (2.417 multiplier) as a result.
• Berserking Warrior may be over valued at 57.4% more than a static bonus as seen when compared to Mother's Sorrow which would explain why Tzogvin is so far behind. Berserking Warrior should be nerfed.
• Tzogvin loses a bit of it's power budget because although the proc conditions are nearly identical between Berserking Warrior and Tzogvin, dealing crit damage every 500ms is much easier than dealing melee damage every 500ms resulting in the power budget multiplier of Tzogvin being 2.852 instead of the 3.661 from BW which is 28.3% weaker, but 22.6% stronger than a static bonus set. This means nothing should change and both sets are in a good place.

My Solution and Conclusion:
Imo.. Tzogvin seems to be in a good place and Berserking Warrior is vastly over valued. The multiplier should not be 57.4% stronger than a static bonus or roughly 30% stronger than Tzogvin simply because it requires melee damage over crit damage. If Tzogvin is 22.6% stronger than a 5 piece bonus, I think Berserking Warrior should warrant 30-40% stronger than a 5 piece bonus because it requires a harder condition. This would result in the set offering 2518 - 2712 crit instead of 3050.

For whatever reason, ZOS went a little too far here imo by buffing the crit of Berserking Warrior from 2000 to 3050 completely outclassing Tzogvin, Mothers Sorrow and Medusa in terms of budget.

I like your math, but dont worry StamDD arent meta anyway so it dosent really matter. Another thing that might be take in count is BW is Heavy armor. Which mean you are limited on how to use it. In that case, Medusa should be a little be tweaked to get that overvalue from being Heavy too.
But... Zos is Zos and Zosed us here and there for obscure reason anyway. As i main StamDD i'm glad about BW changes. I also play a MagPlar and i'll enjoy (i think) to not refresh accelered or barbed all the time using medusa. (i'll probably slot Entropy instead for dungeon and i wont have to use a pot for the 20% Spell damage)

And, patch isn't live yet. Who knows what we're going to have tomorrow ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

DR4GONFL1

Had a flame staff drop last night... just to confirm

Xuhora

can someone enlighten me? why would you need an infernostaff of this set? would it not be better to have this set on both bars (3 jewelry, 2 heavy pieces) and then go for a set like siroria / Spell strategist on frontbar? I mean it would be possible, since Monstersets could be worn in light armor.
am i missing something? and yes im aware of missing the 511 bonus from the undaunted

Rebiludo

Xuhora wrote: »

can someone enlighten me? why would you need an infernostaff of this set? would it not be better to have this set on both bars (3 jewelry, 2 heavy pieces) and then go for a set like siroria / Spell strategist on frontbar? I mean it would be possible, since Monstersets could be worn in light armor.
am i missing something? and yes im aware of missing the 511 bonus from the undaunted

I agree. Chest and Greaves for 100% ultime and better survivability, especially if you still play blood for blood in trial with a lot of self-heal like surge (MS + Medusa)

Arjuna1696

Gotta say - really enjoying using this set. The fewer buffs I need to cast / keep up, the better!

stefj68

well they could fix the loot table for medusa set... removing bow, maul, battleaxe, axe, sword, greatsword anything that is stamina based weapons! and seems that good traits dropping are way much lower then ussual... got about 40 medusa pieces drop today 1 infused and 1 divines pieces... tons of impen, sturdy, reinforced...

but in general i like that set, will have to transmute jewelry eventually before i can benefits from it

xF1REFL1x

For the jewelry would you transmute to infused or bloodthirsty?

stefj68

xF1REFL1x wrote: »

For the jewelry would you transmute to infused or bloodthirsty?

both options are good, but i will go with infused, since im going to put it on my sorcerer

big_ear_midget

Hi, I see that the medusa set was changed and it looks like people are using it, but what builds is it being used for? pve, pvp? tank/dps, etc? I wasnt able to see anything on alcast about this? thanks!

kathandira

xF1REFL1x wrote: »

For the jewelry would you transmute to infused or bloodthirsty?

Been seeing builds with 1 Infused, 2 Bloodthirsty.

Koubo

big_ear_midget wrote: »

Hi, I see that the medusa set was changed and it looks like people are using it, but what builds is it being used for? pve, pvp? tank/dps, etc? I wasnt able to see anything on alcast about this? thanks!

Alcast... I like his website as a beginer (a bit too much advertisement now tho). It help learning the game. That's why we see so many people running Releq in dungeon btw... They just blindly follow guides like Alcast. I really enjoyed it but people should learn that some build are made for this and that. Not Builder's fault.
Medusa is to free one of you skill slot in fight in order to get something you want but cant put otherwise, like a heal/shield. MS and Trap provide better parse but it might be tedious to refresh them sometimes too. It's mostly for a flex slot more than anything in my opinion. Like, in vCR portal, you definitly need a heal and most MagDD i've played so far dont have that flex slot. Medusa provide it.

wwestjr

Pardon my newbiness....but I have a couple of questions. What do you mean by front/back bar set? Is this actually changing out your set when you switch bars? If so, how/why do you do that??!

Because the Medusa set is heavy armor, wouldn't there be an added protection bonus? With my MS+Julianos setup I keep dying ALL THE TIME. I'm fine with sacrificing bonuses from MG passives for more protection. Really, I hate dying! It's embarrassing and it jeopardizes others trying to rez me.

Love all of your comments.

Koubo

wwestjr wrote: »

Pardon my newbiness....but I have a couple of questions. What do you mean by front/back bar set? Is this actually changing out your set when you switch bars? If so, how/why do you do that??!

Because the Medusa set is heavy armor, wouldn't there be an added protection bonus? With my MS+Julianos setup I keep dying ALL THE TIME. I'm fine with sacrificing bonuses from MG passives for more protection. Really, I hate dying! It's embarrassing and it jeopardizes others trying to rez me.

Love all of your comments.

When we talked about front bar set, it means we use a weapon of this set. but you also lose the 4/5 and 5/5 bonus pieces while you're using your backbar weapon (which is often Maelstrom staff/bow)
For some set, it have minimum impact because the 5/5 (the most important) bonus is a buff, or a proc and will carry from front to back bar (because it's on you) Siroria, for example, if proced will still be active while you're on your backbar. However, some set will be completely lose while on backbar, like Medusa or Mother's sorrow because they are flat static stats. That's why some set are prefered on backbar while some other are prefered on body (which often translate into armor pieces except helmet & shoulders. But you can prefectly use 3 jewlry +2 armor piece. You only need some set to be active while on backbar, while others can be "front barred" which mean you need the weapon of this set +3 thingy (often jewlry for clarity, but can be armor pieces)
Hope it's more clear.

If you die, the problem isn't the gear but probably the playstyle, the setup or even the CP. With experience you should know what you can do solo and what you cannot. Trust me, if you're a DD you want 0 protection thingy on your gear. Life will come from your food (which is part of your setup/build and VERY important. Must be active 100% of the time) If you're low CP, i advise your to use IceHeart monster set (from DireFrost) and maybe 1 health enchant on either head, legs or chest. It might help wile you grind more CP and get more resistance. They help a TON.

Brander12

Why? Looks like we do have some other option for crit instead of MS. Cheap and good with 10% buff. So new players don't have to spend money for MS things.