The huge downtick in quality from Summerset to Greymoor

Hurbster

Just noticed that there is an NPC in Artaeum from the Clockwork City intro quest. Wonder what other little things I have missed ?

Czekoludek

Hurbster wrote: »

Just noticed that there is an NPC in Artaeum from the Clockwork City intro quest. Wonder what other little things I have missed ?

If you save Welkynars during Cloudrest trial (+3 mode) you can find them later in Summerset. Nice little detail

Vrienda

Rowjoh wrote: »

I'd just like to say that this is one of the most thoughtful, constructive and valid forum posts, full of well articulated and interesting points of view that should resonate with ZoS.

An 'awesome' to the OP for posting this

Wow thanks! Honestly I was worried I’d come off as rambling. I wrote this from the heart the second I finished Summerset and just typed out my thoughts as they came.

voreo

I really enjoyed Elsweyr/Dragonhold but thats because I love Tharn/Sai & its characters it introduced.

I want Nahfahlaar back.
(Take in mind i did Elsweyr after Wrothgar, not touched Morrowind/Summer as the home was a big incentive...that and dragons)

Jaimeh

It's more disappointing because a lot of people were looking forward to this due to Skyrim nostalgia. Given how they had to work from home due to the quarantine, it would have been better to delay the chapter release. As it stands, the only areas I think they did really well are the antiquities (even though I'm not a fan of the system, but you can tell there's been a lot of work devoted to it), and the design of Blackreach. However, overland, the main quest, the harrowstorms, and the trial... really uninspired.

OtarTheMad

I enjoyed Summerset and Elsweyr (North and south) and I actually did enjoy Greymoor however the one thing that I found fairly disappointing was the obvious enemy... Reachmen. The reason I am not excited about that is I have faced them in 3-4 other places in this game. DC zones, EP zones, Falkreath Hold dungeon, Orsinium, and now Greymoor chapter and most likely quarter 4 story DLC. Man, Reachmen are BUSY. Here's hoping that "big bads" down the road are different/unique.

dhboy123

Summerset and Elsweyr were both great, Greymoor was terrible.

mairwen85

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I enjoyed Summerset and Elsweyr (North and south) and I actually did enjoy Greymoor however the one thing that I found fairly disappointing was the obvious enemy... Reachmen. The reason I am not excited about that is I have faced them in 3-4 other places in this game. DC zones, EP zones, Falkreath Hold dungeon, Orsinium, and now Greymoor chapter and most likely quarter 4 story DLC. Man, Reachmen are BUSY. Here's hoping that "big bads" down the road are different/unique.

The Reachmen have an interesting and storied history; they have their own culture and society and aren't inherently evil, even though they venerate the hagravens and worship the more primal deadric princes. I feel that Greymoor could have been a great way to explore that and open up who they really are, possibly even a guild type quest arc and skill-line in hedge wizardry would have been a nice introduction to the game which would have synced up nicely with Wardens and Sorcerers. We're currently in 2E 583; 2E 541 - 576 was the time of The Longhouse Emperors, a large insurgence of Reachmen who had gained so much power and influence they were able to establish a presence in Cyrodiil and form a pseudo-dynasty (by Durcorach the Black Drake marrying into the Tharn family). They had captured a large portion of High Rock and advanced all the way to Wayrest where Emeric was able to hold them off due their lack of 'modern' siege weaponry. The dynasty lasted 3 generations before being deposed by Varen Aquilarios. It's quite natural that during the 3 banners war, they would be seeking to establish their hold with any ally they believed capable of achieving that, e.g. Molag Bal. They are dotted everywhere at this period in ES lore because of that, and more often than not, playing the role of the pawn to whichever big bad is throwing their weight around. Again though, as I've said a few times in this thread, that's another missed opportunity.

Edit to add:
You could argue the Reachmen are the unrepresented 4th banner, a bastardised sub race with heritage from across all of Tamriel with political weight and a stake to the Ruby Throne. Their claim is a real as any other faction, and they are trying to fulfil it with the adage: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

bethsheba

Nestor wrote: »

I finally started the Greymoor Main Quest the other night. I prefer to not do the quests as part of a Mob, so hold off the initial rush. Even avoiding all quest spoilers, I knew who the bad guy was the moment he spoke. Tired tropes and telegraphed plots do not make for an engaging story. I have not had much motivation to chase this story down, and I like quest content. The Greymoor quest remains unfinished, and I am not Thane of anything either.

I have decided to take an Alt through the Daggerfall Content, yes, the original 15 zones. That story content is still engaging.

As a fellow quest lover, I am constantly taking my alts through the original content. I want depth. I want my character to feel like they are making some difference, or have some weight in this world we play in. Sure I remember what's going to happen most of the time, but it is like re-reading favorite books over and over.

January1171

For me there is one thing that stands out as an indicator of the overall quality- Sai Sahan.

When it was announced that he was coming back, the devs explicitly stated there would be an explanation if you had made *that choice in the main quest.

Then the explanation was just "Next thing I knew I woke up here!" It was the worst, most paltry excuse for an 'explanation'. At that point they would have been better off just saying nothing. Absolutely zero addition to the lore, just a lazy way to get sai back in the story.

Jaraal

Vrienda wrote: »

I decided to stick around and push my old Templar main through Summerset since I'd forgotten a lot of details about that chapter. And holy hell the difference is night and day. The quality of the quests, writing, world building. A chapter that actually respected our prior adventures and recognised what we had done over the course of the three year story arch that began as Orsinium ended. Playing THAT off the back of Greymoor completely blew me away, I had forgotten why I ever fell in love with this game until I sunk my teeth into Summerset. Just a few months ago I was considering ending the 6 year long subscription I've held with the game after having issues paying for it. Now don't get me wrong, Summerset isn't perfect and the Psijic order questline is one of the laziest questlines I've ever seen. But it just had so much more heart put into it. In Greymoor it seems like the writers just don't care. Our past history with characters like Lyris is brushed off in a single line of dialogue while Summerset is back here making references to Morrowind (Both side quests and main quests) and Clockwork City all over the place.

Summerset was Loremaster Lawrence Schick's last hurrah. After he left, things have gone drastically downhill (ie: Bosmer and Argonian lore trashed, dragons forced into the Age of Man to sell content, bringing back Schick's characters we sacrificed to save the world for the same reason, etc).

The content since then has been under the direction of the next Loremaster.... who's name escapes me. He popped in here and said 'Hi' once, and was never heard from again.

mairwen85

Jaraal wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I decided to stick around and push my old Templar main through Summerset since I'd forgotten a lot of details about that chapter. And holy hell the difference is night and day. The quality of the quests, writing, world building. A chapter that actually respected our prior adventures and recognised what we had done over the course of the three year story arch that began as Orsinium ended. Playing THAT off the back of Greymoor completely blew me away, I had forgotten why I ever fell in love with this game until I sunk my teeth into Summerset. Just a few months ago I was considering ending the 6 year long subscription I've held with the game after having issues paying for it. Now don't get me wrong, Summerset isn't perfect and the Psijic order questline is one of the laziest questlines I've ever seen. But it just had so much more heart put into it. In Greymoor it seems like the writers just don't care. Our past history with characters like Lyris is brushed off in a single line of dialogue while Summerset is back here making references to Morrowind (Both side quests and main quests) and Clockwork City all over the place.

Summerset was Loremaster Lawrence Schick's last hurrah. After he left, things have gone drastically downhill (ie: Bosmer and Argonian lore trashed, dragons forced into the Age of Man to sell content, bringing back Schick's characters we sacrificed to save the world for the same reason, etc).

The content since then has been under the direction of the next Loremaster.... who's name escapes me. He popped in here and said 'Hi' once, and was never heard from again.

Leamon Tuttle. He was principal writer for Clockwork and Murkmire which kind of voids a little bit of your theory. I also wouldn't put it all on one person, that's incredibly unfair. ZOS is an organisation, as such it exists as many different parts and voices. If quality has dropped, it will be as the result of multiple factors, not because of one person.

Raltin

Vrienda wrote: »

Greymoor disappointed me as a chapter. The writing was lazy, particularly for the side quests which all had predictable plots and outcomes, same that one old guy with the dog. The main quest had me scratching my head at multiple points, particularly the "big twist" towards the climax. I left the chapter feeling incredibly underwhelmed and none of the characters really interested me all that much. It was incredibly formulaic with tropes and plots we've seen a thousand times before.

But as both WoW and FF14 are in a bit of a content drought I decided to stick around and push my old Templar main through Summerset since I'd forgotten a lot of details about that chapter. And holy hell the difference is night and day. The quality of the quests, writing, world building. A chapter that actually respected our prior adventures and recognised what we had done over the course of the three year story arch that began as Orsinium ended. Playing THAT off the back of Greymoor completely blew me away, I had forgotten why I ever fell in love with this game until I sunk my teeth into Summerset. Just a few months ago I was considering ending the 6 year long subscription I've held with the game after having issues paying for it. Now don't get me wrong, Summerset isn't perfect and the Psijic order questline is one of the laziest questlines I've ever seen. But it just had so much more heart put into it. In Greymoor it seems like the writers just don't care. Our past history with characters like Lyris is brushed off in a single line of dialogue while Summerset is back here making references to Morrowind (Both side quests and main quests) and Clockwork City all over the place.

This is what made me fall in love with this game way back in the beta of January 2014. Seeing those characters I met on Stros M'kai move through the world, winding up in Glenumbra, Stormhaven and eventually the Al'akir. And then even making a return in the Dark Brotherhood DLC. But now your effort to make every chapter feel like a new game has cost us that connection to our character's past. The timeline is stagnant and confusing. Summerset was designed with you having played previous questlines in mind, but it allowed new players to proceed regardless. Greymoor feels the opposite, like it was designed for new players while old players are just kinda thrown into, completely disconnected from their past.

But you know what Summerset did that really blew me away? A minor delve quest giver on Artaeum appears in Orsinium once you've completed it. You're given no hint of this. And she's in the temple, a place so out of the way that most players would never think to go looking, but ZOS went and put her there anyway. Summerset was a chapter made with a real passion for the setting and the story. Greymoor feels like it was made to cash in on some vague sense of Skyrim nostalgia, there's no heart to it. And the greymoor caverns suck to navigate to boot, the amount of times I got stuck down the side of some rock and had to port to a wayshrine are beyond counting at this stage.

Do better ZOS, I know you can.

PS. On a positive note I'm really enjoying the antiquities system. Moreso than anything else in Greymoor.

I never noticed the artaeum orc end up in orsinium, thanks for pointing that out... gonna have to go see her. Btw, if you released that one altmer slave in Sadrith Mora in Vvardenfell's questline? She appears on a beach in summerset, JUST along the coast between the sea sload world boss near Alinor and the Wasten Coraldale delve.

As for the writing quality... lore-wise, ZoS kinda *** up with the daedric triad, nocturnal was a VERY poor pick to have put in for the storyline if you know how she tends to operate within the lore of the series... and mephala BARELY did anything at all throughout the entire plot, despite having a unique model compared to Clavicus and Nocturnal, who were a skaafin dressed in an imperial crown store outfit and a human dressed in the nocturnal robe crown store outfit, respectively. Otherwise, putting aside a few large-scale plot ***-ups, Summerset was VERY enjoyable, particularly its side quests, but they definitely could have done more with it. If you want to see what absolute heart and soul put into an update is; play murkmire... the world-building, the lore, and everything was just SOOOO juicy with that dlc...

it got more love and attention than summerset ever hoped to. A prime example is how we got two new unique instruments with murkmire, with bard songs in both tamrielic common AND jel (the argonian native language) was amazing... and they weren't just hooplah, I was able to almost fully translate one of the jel songs, they actually mean something. Compare that with Summerset... we were teased throughout the vanilla game (and still in greymoor) that altmer were the most amazing harp players in tamriel... and yet we don't see a single altmer playing the harp in Summerset... just lutes. I would have LOVED to come across harp players. Furthermore, there were a good amount of lore-points that were not addressed with summerset, particularly the Varline transport system that altmer invented to teleport between their cities... think Vvardenfell's silt-striders, but magical. For every neat thing they addressed with summerset, they ignored another.

Jaraal

mairwen85 wrote: »

I also wouldn't put it all on one person, that's incredibly unfair. ZOS is an organisation, as such it exists as many different parts and voices. If quality has dropped, it will be as the result of multiple factors, not because of one person.

So you're saying various people make up the lore and implement it into the game, and there's no oversight and no one to answer to? That would better explain why recent lore makes less sense than before. One would think the position of Loremaster would have more responsibility.... but thank you for clarifying.

Raltin

Faulgor wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

I kind of agree, Summerset has the deepest darkest quests. Like stab you in the hearts, super messed up stuff.

Elsweyr was a bit of change of pace but I didn't exactly dislike it, it was more traditional fantasy tropes but I think there is room for different kinds of chapters. Sometimes you want something a bit lighter.

I played only a little bit of Greymoor on the PTS and mostly the sidequests, I think the big difference is that a lot of the problems are super evil magic-related instead of interpersonal related like they are in summerset. When the problem is "evil magic" and obviously evil villains its not grey enough for the storytelling I want from ESO.

I think the problem is kind of having two chapters in a row like that rather than it being inherently bad.

I will note that Morrowind also had some very dark interpersonal conflicts going on that i liked.

I think that's a great summation. What makes for an interesting villain is not the cardboard cutout big bad, but someone who does bad things with the best intentions. If you have a noble goal, but the methods to achieve it are damaging, or dangerous (killmonger in the mcu for example) it makes for a much richer plot, and more so if it has an interpersonal (not bs political) twist. Black and white polarised story lines are dull, we need more grey area plots.

Rada al-Saran is actually an interesting villain IMO, because his real motivation is to free his Gray Host buddies from enslavement in Coldharbour. It's just not really featured in the actual story line, it's a literal side note in Blackreach somewhere.
Even Svargrim's motivation to look for power in dark places out of paranoia and fear for his kingdom could at least be understandable, but the execution is so disappointingly lackluster ...

Rada has some interesting points, but that doesn't mean his name isn't enjoyable to make fun of. I'm starting to think ZoS just enjoys giving whacky names to their villains for the sake of comic relief... I mean, the best example of this is the orc in Elsweyr: Zumog PHOOM... who *** as the name PHOOM? His name doesn't even follow orsimeri naming conventions, if he has a second part to his name, it HAS to have a gro- before the Phoom.

For Rada... I've heard a lot of joke names already. "Rada the Hut", "Rada Fett", and "Rada al Ghul" to name a few. Oh, OOH! And there was the Fozzy Bear one, "Rada Rada!"

Galwylin

mairwen85 wrote: »

I don't think its a case of they had nothing to say that hadn't been said. Nord culture is just as rich and deep as that of any other race in TES, and this game takes place before the single player games. I've never seen the stories of ESO as concrete TES lore, there is ancient lore, and lore established in the single player games, what ESO provides is decorative threads to that broad tapestry, and while certain things are and will be stitched out, there's plenty of room to expand and explore. The worst thing about the method of story telling in greymoor is that we have an escalating story that never reaches its peak because it constantly tells us via exposition what is going on instead of teasing and hinting at what's to come and allowing us to unpack the plot, a trend that began in the prologue. It tells us instead of showing us the story, we aren't experiencing it as such, but more observing it from very surface level interactions.

I don't disagree with you about the story. One of the smartest things I thought they did was present these elevators to Blackreach as the Dwarven ruins littered in Skyrim except they didn't go the step farther in having one destroyed in front of us to make that connection so I would guess those that played Skyrim but didn't read or watch anything about Greymoor are probably wondering what's the deal with them. The tower being damaged was another but they didn't go into what's the deal with it and why they wouldn't have been able to rebuild instead of just ignore it for hundreds of years.

The chapter has connective tissue that they just didn't utilize which they did in Vvardenfell. Now I'm always a bit of eye rolling when games do things like this (SWTOR having the same general technology thousands of years removed another example) but that's part of the fun of revisiting these places. Morthal looking like it did in Skyrim would be an excellent spot where the docks might not exist now as they do later because the water hadn't risen. I'm not sure if any current day delves are open settlements now but that's my memory of Skyrim not being up to date.

That's the sort of thing I mean by not having anything to say. The generic vampire story that doesn't barely go into them working with others. Is this normal? Everyday normal behavior? What do werewolves see a benefit from? Its basically here's Skyrim in the ESO engine which already removes the fun to revisit. Why is the game set in the past if that's as far as you are willing to go. Sure presenting the future in the past was happening in Vvardenfell but they did take some choices. Enough for those familiar with the past game had some fun unknown lore shown to them. I'm just perplexed why go such a lazy route when you already shown yourself capable.

Even all that aside, the story is so badly put to together that you might as well call it a commercial for Q4's release where we hope to see this thing conclude. The spinning your wheels only to find out what you already knew is not good design. The tagline of the chapter might as well been Skyrim, you know it so here.

mairwen85

Jaraal wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

I also wouldn't put it all on one person, that's incredibly unfair. ZOS is an organisation, as such it exists as many different parts and voices. If quality has dropped, it will be as the result of multiple factors, not because of one person.

So you're saying various people make up the lore and implement it into the game, and there's no oversight and no one to answer to? That would better explain why recent lore makes less sense than before. One would think the position of Loremaster would have more responsibility.... but thank you for clarifying.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The task of Loremaster is of course to 'master' the lore and ensure it is not only correct but fits with the overall universe. But we are talking about the general quality of this chapter in comparison to those before it and how there has been a decline in quality of both the content and story telling.

This thread has been really civil and not had the common place bashing that others on similar topics introduce. I personally think that's because of how OP opened the thread with balanced and well thought out critique--it would be nice if we could retain that and no go on a witch hunt of ZOS employees. That's about the crux of what I'm saying.

Drachenfier

Ashryn wrote: »

and the Harrowstorms still give out crap!

Agreed, and not just the Harrowstorms, but world bosses in Greymoor apparently have no loot table whatsoever. Haven't seen one drop anything yet. As in, I've downed two (from start to finish) and they weren't even lootable once they were killed.

Faulgor

Jaraal wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I decided to stick around and push my old Templar main through Summerset since I'd forgotten a lot of details about that chapter. And holy hell the difference is night and day. The quality of the quests, writing, world building. A chapter that actually respected our prior adventures and recognised what we had done over the course of the three year story arch that began as Orsinium ended. Playing THAT off the back of Greymoor completely blew me away, I had forgotten why I ever fell in love with this game until I sunk my teeth into Summerset. Just a few months ago I was considering ending the 6 year long subscription I've held with the game after having issues paying for it. Now don't get me wrong, Summerset isn't perfect and the Psijic order questline is one of the laziest questlines I've ever seen. But it just had so much more heart put into it. In Greymoor it seems like the writers just don't care. Our past history with characters like Lyris is brushed off in a single line of dialogue while Summerset is back here making references to Morrowind (Both side quests and main quests) and Clockwork City all over the place.

Summerset was Loremaster Lawrence Schick's last hurrah. After he left, things have gone drastically downhill (ie: Bosmer and Argonian lore trashed, dragons forced into the Age of Man to sell content, bringing back Schick's characters we sacrificed to save the world for the same reason, etc).

The content since then has been under the direction of the next Loremaster.... who's name escapes me. He popped in here and said 'Hi' once, and was never heard from again.

Schick almost certainly still oversaw the story and design roadmap for Elsweyr. That stuff is done so far in advance they're already working on next year's chapter.

And again, the loremaster isn't responsible for every writing decision and quest content in the game. Greymoor might have been stale and whatnot, but I can't say that there are any egregious lore blunders - like locking the Akaviri in a shrine in a city they should rule at the time, for instance.

Lord-Otto

Faulgor wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I decided to stick around and push my old Templar main through Summerset since I'd forgotten a lot of details about that chapter. And holy hell the difference is night and day. The quality of the quests, writing, world building. A chapter that actually respected our prior adventures and recognised what we had done over the course of the three year story arch that began as Orsinium ended. Playing THAT off the back of Greymoor completely blew me away, I had forgotten why I ever fell in love with this game until I sunk my teeth into Summerset. Just a few months ago I was considering ending the 6 year long subscription I've held with the game after having issues paying for it. Now don't get me wrong, Summerset isn't perfect and the Psijic order questline is one of the laziest questlines I've ever seen. But it just had so much more heart put into it. In Greymoor it seems like the writers just don't care. Our past history with characters like Lyris is brushed off in a single line of dialogue while Summerset is back here making references to Morrowind (Both side quests and main quests) and Clockwork City all over the place.

Summerset was Loremaster Lawrence Schick's last hurrah. After he left, things have gone drastically downhill (ie: Bosmer and Argonian lore trashed, dragons forced into the Age of Man to sell content, bringing back Schick's characters we sacrificed to save the world for the same reason, etc).

The content since then has been under the direction of the next Loremaster.... who's name escapes me. He popped in here and said 'Hi' once, and was never heard from again.

Schick almost certainly still oversaw the story and design roadmap for Elsweyr. That stuff is done so far in advance they're already working on next year's chapter.

And again, the loremaster isn't responsible for every writing decision and quest content in the game. Greymoor might have been stale and whatnot, but I can't say that there are any egregious lore blunders - like locking the Akaviri in a shrine in a city they should rule at the time, for instance.

Just Blackreach having been a tourist vacation place, secretive vampires having a castle you can see from miles and a gang of Hammerfell vampires being the original Daughters of Coldharbour. I'd say there are a lot of heavy blunders.

Faulgor

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I decided to stick around and push my old Templar main through Summerset since I'd forgotten a lot of details about that chapter. And holy hell the difference is night and day. The quality of the quests, writing, world building. A chapter that actually respected our prior adventures and recognised what we had done over the course of the three year story arch that began as Orsinium ended. Playing THAT off the back of Greymoor completely blew me away, I had forgotten why I ever fell in love with this game until I sunk my teeth into Summerset. Just a few months ago I was considering ending the 6 year long subscription I've held with the game after having issues paying for it. Now don't get me wrong, Summerset isn't perfect and the Psijic order questline is one of the laziest questlines I've ever seen. But it just had so much more heart put into it. In Greymoor it seems like the writers just don't care. Our past history with characters like Lyris is brushed off in a single line of dialogue while Summerset is back here making references to Morrowind (Both side quests and main quests) and Clockwork City all over the place.

Summerset was Loremaster Lawrence Schick's last hurrah. After he left, things have gone drastically downhill (ie: Bosmer and Argonian lore trashed, dragons forced into the Age of Man to sell content, bringing back Schick's characters we sacrificed to save the world for the same reason, etc).

The content since then has been under the direction of the next Loremaster.... who's name escapes me. He popped in here and said 'Hi' once, and was never heard from again.

Schick almost certainly still oversaw the story and design roadmap for Elsweyr. That stuff is done so far in advance they're already working on next year's chapter.

And again, the loremaster isn't responsible for every writing decision and quest content in the game. Greymoor might have been stale and whatnot, but I can't say that there are any egregious lore blunders - like locking the Akaviri in a shrine in a city they should rule at the time, for instance.

Just Blackreach having been a tourist vacation place, secretive vampires having a castle you can see from miles and a gang of Hammerfell vampires being the original Daughters of Coldharbour. I'd say there are a lot of heavy blunders.

I'll say Blackreach wasn't handled to my liking, it's treated way too nonchalant. But that seems more of an issue in writing and presentation than lore to me. I don't think a mining village down there outright contradicts what we knew before?

And what's that about Hammerfell vampires? I must have missed that, sounds horrible.

LightningWitch

One of my favorite stories comes from Summerset, and involves the Direnni family. Having to read the journals to see what happened and then make a choice at the end was exceptional.


What's even more fantastic is you can see Direnni island from various parts in the game, and I cannot wait for a DLC to explore it.

Here's hoping the writers actually take our choice from Summerset into consideration and gives us *two* distinct storelines based on that choice.

I'd like to see what the young lady is up to now.

Lord-Otto

Faulgor wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I decided to stick around and push my old Templar main through Summerset since I'd forgotten a lot of details about that chapter. And holy hell the difference is night and day. The quality of the quests, writing, world building. A chapter that actually respected our prior adventures and recognised what we had done over the course of the three year story arch that began as Orsinium ended. Playing THAT off the back of Greymoor completely blew me away, I had forgotten why I ever fell in love with this game until I sunk my teeth into Summerset. Just a few months ago I was considering ending the 6 year long subscription I've held with the game after having issues paying for it. Now don't get me wrong, Summerset isn't perfect and the Psijic order questline is one of the laziest questlines I've ever seen. But it just had so much more heart put into it. In Greymoor it seems like the writers just don't care. Our past history with characters like Lyris is brushed off in a single line of dialogue while Summerset is back here making references to Morrowind (Both side quests and main quests) and Clockwork City all over the place.

Summerset was Loremaster Lawrence Schick's last hurrah. After he left, things have gone drastically downhill (ie: Bosmer and Argonian lore trashed, dragons forced into the Age of Man to sell content, bringing back Schick's characters we sacrificed to save the world for the same reason, etc).

The content since then has been under the direction of the next Loremaster.... who's name escapes me. He popped in here and said 'Hi' once, and was never heard from again.

Schick almost certainly still oversaw the story and design roadmap for Elsweyr. That stuff is done so far in advance they're already working on next year's chapter.

And again, the loremaster isn't responsible for every writing decision and quest content in the game. Greymoor might have been stale and whatnot, but I can't say that there are any egregious lore blunders - like locking the Akaviri in a shrine in a city they should rule at the time, for instance.

Just Blackreach having been a tourist vacation place, secretive vampires having a castle you can see from miles and a gang of Hammerfell vampires being the original Daughters of Coldharbour. I'd say there are a lot of heavy blunders.

I'll say Blackreach wasn't handled to my liking, it's treated way too nonchalant. But that seems more of an issue in writing and presentation than lore to me. I don't think a mining village down there outright contradicts what we knew before?

And what's that about Hammerfell vampires? I must have missed that, sounds horrible.

Thing about Blackreach in ESO is it misses the mark. Skyrim BR was a lost paradise, deserted and serene. Compare this to ESO's version and it's visually too crowded and loree-wise too well-known.

So, the Hammerfell vampires. The Grey Host apparently originates from the Alik'ir. That's not a problem, but them having the vampire lord transformation is odd.
Clan Volkihar was said to be very stealthy and they were isolated on their isle. It makes sense for them to have this power and the outside world not knowing about it. They also have a grueling story as to how they got that power.
The Grey Host? How are they hiding in an open, empty desert? They also seem to be a rather famous vampire clan. So really, if they had the vampire lord, it would be known. And since they seemingly pre-date Serana, have they sent a couple maidens to pervy Molag, too? Making them the original lords and diminishing the importance of Volkihar?
This story, this lore... it's a mess.

mairwen85

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thing about Blackreach in ESO is it misses the mark. Skyrim BR was a lost paradise, deserted and serene. Compare this to ESO's version and it's visually too crowded and loree-wise too well-known.

Skyrim is a thousand years in the future yet. Things get deserted over time, and knowledge is lost.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So, the Hammerfell vampires. The Grey Host apparently originates from the Alik'ir. That's not a problem, but them having the vampire lord transformation is odd.
Clan Volkihar was said to be very stealthy and they were isolated on their isle. It makes sense for them to have this power and the outside world not knowing about it. They also have a grueling story as to how they got that power.
The Grey Host? How are they hiding in an open, empty desert? They also seem to be a rather famous vampire clan. So really, if they had the vampire lord, it would be known. And since they seemingly pre-date Serana, have they sent a couple maidens to pervy Molag, too? Making them the original lords and diminishing the importance of Volkihar?

Volkihar pledged his allegiance to Molag Bal independently. As such he was granted his powers directly from the Daedric Prince, that doesn't deminish anything about him that another vampire granted their ability directly from the same Prince has similar abilities. What it does do is explain why Lamae Bal doesn't have that ability, because she actively denies Molag Bal, and her bloodline hate and disavow him. What is irksome is that we are now to believe that Lamae can somehow tweak the abilities that her bloodline have and how vampirism manifests in them, and the Blood Scion is a temporary augmentation served to combat the Vampire Lords. When did the apotheosis from Blood Matron to Blood Goddess occur?

None of that breaks the lore per se, it just creates plot holes in the story of Greymoor, which highlights the main complaint that quality of writing has dipped.

Faulgor

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I decided to stick around and push my old Templar main through Summerset since I'd forgotten a lot of details about that chapter. And holy hell the difference is night and day. The quality of the quests, writing, world building. A chapter that actually respected our prior adventures and recognised what we had done over the course of the three year story arch that began as Orsinium ended. Playing THAT off the back of Greymoor completely blew me away, I had forgotten why I ever fell in love with this game until I sunk my teeth into Summerset. Just a few months ago I was considering ending the 6 year long subscription I've held with the game after having issues paying for it. Now don't get me wrong, Summerset isn't perfect and the Psijic order questline is one of the laziest questlines I've ever seen. But it just had so much more heart put into it. In Greymoor it seems like the writers just don't care. Our past history with characters like Lyris is brushed off in a single line of dialogue while Summerset is back here making references to Morrowind (Both side quests and main quests) and Clockwork City all over the place.

Summerset was Loremaster Lawrence Schick's last hurrah. After he left, things have gone drastically downhill (ie: Bosmer and Argonian lore trashed, dragons forced into the Age of Man to sell content, bringing back Schick's characters we sacrificed to save the world for the same reason, etc).

The content since then has been under the direction of the next Loremaster.... who's name escapes me. He popped in here and said 'Hi' once, and was never heard from again.

Schick almost certainly still oversaw the story and design roadmap for Elsweyr. That stuff is done so far in advance they're already working on next year's chapter.

And again, the loremaster isn't responsible for every writing decision and quest content in the game. Greymoor might have been stale and whatnot, but I can't say that there are any egregious lore blunders - like locking the Akaviri in a shrine in a city they should rule at the time, for instance.

Just Blackreach having been a tourist vacation place, secretive vampires having a castle you can see from miles and a gang of Hammerfell vampires being the original Daughters of Coldharbour. I'd say there are a lot of heavy blunders.

I'll say Blackreach wasn't handled to my liking, it's treated way too nonchalant. But that seems more of an issue in writing and presentation than lore to me. I don't think a mining village down there outright contradicts what we knew before?

And what's that about Hammerfell vampires? I must have missed that, sounds horrible.

Thing about Blackreach in ESO is it misses the mark. Skyrim BR was a lost paradise, deserted and serene. Compare this to ESO's version and it's visually too crowded and loree-wise too well-known.

So, the Hammerfell vampires. The Grey Host apparently originates from the Alik'ir. That's not a problem, but them having the vampire lord transformation is odd.
Clan Volkihar was said to be very stealthy and they were isolated on their isle. It makes sense for them to have this power and the outside world not knowing about it. They also have a grueling story as to how they got that power.
The Grey Host? How are they hiding in an open, empty desert? They also seem to be a rather famous vampire clan. So really, if they had the vampire lord, it would be known. And since they seemingly pre-date Serana, have they sent a couple maidens to pervy Molag, too? Making them the original lords and diminishing the importance of Volkihar?
This story, this lore... it's a mess.

Considering how little focus was actually put on the Gray Host in Greymoor - including the supposed villain - I still hold out hope that all of this will be fleshed out in the Q4 DLC. As of right now, it seems so confusing I'm inclined to disregard most of it outright. There's just not enough to piece a coherent backstory together.

And agreed on Blackreach. It might not be wrong per se, it just sucks.

KyraCROgnon

I agree with the poster here : so far, Greymoor questline is meh, and i was very disappointed with Elsweyr chapter too (the southern part was a surprisingly pleasant release)
I loved the single player Elder Scroll games because of their good storytelling, with quests where you have no easy obvious path. I'm still remembering years after playing that one side quest in Oblivion, where you get hired by a guy to discover which of his neighbours is trying to kill him...

Only to discover that he is actually a complete paranoid crazy, and wont accept the "no one wish you any harm" answer...

The original ESO campaign had some of that flavour (and that kept me playing through the horrible original gameplay...) .
Some of the DLC were absolutely awesome : Orsinium, Dark Brotherhood (or how assassins can be nice and caring characters...) , Summerset where my favorite.
But with Elsweyr and even more with Greymoor, it feels like all they are doing is recycling old elements (you resurect one of the original companions as a main quest line, and you make sur all recurring figures are here for side quests, from the nord ambassador to the insufferable dark elf archeologist. Some are funny, but there is nothing new !
Dragons, vampyres (ohhh sooo dark are we) , and quests without impact , no longer having to face moral dilemna, and each chapter follows the exact same pattern : a new type of "dolmens", a set number of delves and WB, a daily for each of those 3 types. Take one, change terrain texture, change main race , rince, repeat.

Antiquities are nice though. But not exactly story material !

Lord-Otto

mairwen85 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thing about Blackreach in ESO is it misses the mark. Skyrim BR was a lost paradise, deserted and serene. Compare this to ESO's version and it's visually too crowded and loree-wise too well-known.

Skyrim is a thousand years in the future yet. Things get deserted over time, and knowledge is lost.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So, the Hammerfell vampires. The Grey Host apparently originates from the Alik'ir. That's not a problem, but them having the vampire lord transformation is odd.
Clan Volkihar was said to be very stealthy and they were isolated on their isle. It makes sense for them to have this power and the outside world not knowing about it. They also have a grueling story as to how they got that power.
The Grey Host? How are they hiding in an open, empty desert? They also seem to be a rather famous vampire clan. So really, if they had the vampire lord, it would be known. And since they seemingly pre-date Serana, have they sent a couple maidens to pervy Molag, too? Making them the original lords and diminishing the importance of Volkihar?

Volkihar pledged his allegiance to Molag Bal independently. As such he was granted his powers directly from the Daedric Prince, that doesn't deminish anything about him that another vampire granted their ability directly from the same Prince has similar abilities. What it does do is explain why Lamae Bal doesn't have that ability, because she actively denies Molag Bal and her bloodline hate and disavow him. What is irksome is that we are now to believe that Lamae can somehow tweak the abilities that her bloodline have, and the Blood Scion is a temporary augmentation served to combat the Vampire Lords.

None of that breaks the lore per se, it just creates plot holes in the story of Greymoor, which highlights the main complaint that quality of writing has dipped.

No, that's not my point.

Blackreach was deserted in Skyrim. That was what it was. That made it Blackreach and not Winterhold. ESO BR is a complete tonal 180. It's like flooding the Alik'ir desert for TES6. Sure, you could explain it away, but then what's the point? Why not go directly to Pyandonea?
And we still know where ancient Rome stood. History doesn't just forget a super civilization in the span of a mere thousand years. It's unbelievable.

This leads to my gripe with the Grey Host. Volkihar can be explained away, they were being described as secretive in Oblivion already, maybe even before that. But the GH seem very... public. If they had vampire lord powers, as seen in Harrowstorms, we would know in the third era. Something as frightening and powerful as a vampire lord being used openly against you, you write down. You store information, you pass on the knowledge. It worked for Volkihar to be a secret because they were extremely secretive. It just does not work for the Grey Host and Harrowstorms. It's a failed retcon.

Ratzkifal

What I liked about Greymoor is how interconnected everything is.
NPCs would actually talk about each other and you'd find out hidden stories. Like the banker who hates the smell of fish. It turns out that was the fault of one of the mages from the mages guild. Or you go into one delve where the story mentions another character you never meet only for you to actually meet that character later in a different, seemingly unrelated quest.
Also I liked a lot of the NPCs. Old Mjolen, Fennorian, Maugh, the Ghostbusters, Cosma (even if I am not sure how to feel about the lore implications) and probably a few more from quests I haven't done yet.

The things I didn't like about Greymoor are the unmotivated confession and plot twist in the main quest, the hand-holding and spoon-feeding of information that a toddler could already piece together, and the somewhat world-breaking revelation of Blackreach to the world.
Sure, the mining operation is keeping it a secret, but then there are a ton of other NPCs that went to Blackreach with no incentive to keep that secret especially after the main quest is over and Blackreach needs to be plundered for resources to be used against the Harrowstorms. It's also depicted as too close to the surface. You'd think that any mining expedition would get you to Blackreach by accident if it was really so close to the surface in the west. For it to make sense it would have to be a lot deeper within the earth. I am also disappointed that they mentioned how the walls of Solitude were blessed by the gods, but they never actually did anything with that. You'd think such an important detail would be a plotpoint of some kind but it's completely irrelevant.

I am torn on the topic of voice acting. The voice acting itself was very good. I recognized a lot of famous voices from other games who are new to ESO and I can't say that I mind. But the directing for them must have been somewhat bad.
I am not sure if this isn't an issue for American players but as a European player I do notice the difference between a German, Scandinavian or Russian accent and if the Nords don't speak with a somewhat unified accent it kind of breaks the cohesion. I couldn't find a pattern behind the different accents relating to the different holds either, so it must have been an oversight of the director or loremaster. I do like that the Reachmen are predominantly Scottish though which distinguishes them from the Nords but there were Nords who spoke Scottish too so...

mairwen85

Lord-Otto wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Thing about Blackreach in ESO is it misses the mark. Skyrim BR was a lost paradise, deserted and serene. Compare this to ESO's version and it's visually too crowded and loree-wise too well-known.

Skyrim is a thousand years in the future yet. Things get deserted over time, and knowledge is lost.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

So, the Hammerfell vampires. The Grey Host apparently originates from the Alik'ir. That's not a problem, but them having the vampire lord transformation is odd.
Clan Volkihar was said to be very stealthy and they were isolated on their isle. It makes sense for them to have this power and the outside world not knowing about it. They also have a grueling story as to how they got that power.
The Grey Host? How are they hiding in an open, empty desert? They also seem to be a rather famous vampire clan. So really, if they had the vampire lord, it would be known. And since they seemingly pre-date Serana, have they sent a couple maidens to pervy Molag, too? Making them the original lords and diminishing the importance of Volkihar?

Volkihar pledged his allegiance to Molag Bal independently. As such he was granted his powers directly from the Daedric Prince, that doesn't deminish anything about him that another vampire granted their ability directly from the same Prince has similar abilities. What it does do is explain why Lamae Bal doesn't have that ability, because she actively denies Molag Bal and her bloodline hate and disavow him. What is irksome is that we are now to believe that Lamae can somehow tweak the abilities that her bloodline have, and the Blood Scion is a temporary augmentation served to combat the Vampire Lords.

None of that breaks the lore per se, it just creates plot holes in the story of Greymoor, which highlights the main complaint that quality of writing has dipped.

No, that's not my point.

Blackreach was deserted in Skyrim. That was what it was. That made it Blackreach and not Winterhold. ESO BR is a complete tonal 180. It's like flooding the Alik'ir desert for TES6. Sure, you could explain it away, but then what's the point? Why not go directly to Pyandonea?
And we still know where ancient Rome stood. History doesn't just forget a super civilization in the span of a mere thousand years. It's unbelievable.

This leads to my gripe with the Grey Host. Volkihar can be explained away, they were being described as secretive in Oblivion already, maybe even before that. But the GH seem very... public. If they had vampire lord powers, as seen in Harrowstorms, we would know in the third era. Something as frightening and powerful as a vampire lord being used openly against you, you write down. You store information, you pass on the knowledge. It worked for Volkihar to be a secret because they were extremely secretive. It just does not work for the Grey Host and Harrowstorms. It's a failed retcon.

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely. The absence of knowledge wrt Vampire Lords in the future is weird given the supposed threat and encounters in ESO, and I have little faith in it being explained away in a meaningful manner. I'm just saying that right now it's a gaping plot hole which I hope is addressed at some point in Q4, likewise Lamae's demi-god blood powers.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I do like that the Reachmen are predominantly Scottish though which distinguishes them from the Nords

That and they're a lot smaller.

Faulgor

Faulgor wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Vrienda wrote: »

I decided to stick around and push my old Templar main through Summerset since I'd forgotten a lot of details about that chapter. And holy hell the difference is night and day. The quality of the quests, writing, world building. A chapter that actually respected our prior adventures and recognised what we had done over the course of the three year story arch that began as Orsinium ended. Playing THAT off the back of Greymoor completely blew me away, I had forgotten why I ever fell in love with this game until I sunk my teeth into Summerset. Just a few months ago I was considering ending the 6 year long subscription I've held with the game after having issues paying for it. Now don't get me wrong, Summerset isn't perfect and the Psijic order questline is one of the laziest questlines I've ever seen. But it just had so much more heart put into it. In Greymoor it seems like the writers just don't care. Our past history with characters like Lyris is brushed off in a single line of dialogue while Summerset is back here making references to Morrowind (Both side quests and main quests) and Clockwork City all over the place.

Summerset was Loremaster Lawrence Schick's last hurrah. After he left, things have gone drastically downhill (ie: Bosmer and Argonian lore trashed, dragons forced into the Age of Man to sell content, bringing back Schick's characters we sacrificed to save the world for the same reason, etc).

The content since then has been under the direction of the next Loremaster.... who's name escapes me. He popped in here and said 'Hi' once, and was never heard from again.

Schick almost certainly still oversaw the story and design roadmap for Elsweyr. That stuff is done so far in advance they're already working on next year's chapter.

And again, the loremaster isn't responsible for every writing decision and quest content in the game. Greymoor might have been stale and whatnot, but I can't say that there are any egregious lore blunders - like locking the Akaviri in a shrine in a city they should rule at the time, for instance.

Just Blackreach having been a tourist vacation place, secretive vampires having a castle you can see from miles and a gang of Hammerfell vampires being the original Daughters of Coldharbour. I'd say there are a lot of heavy blunders.

I'll say Blackreach wasn't handled to my liking, it's treated way too nonchalant. But that seems more of an issue in writing and presentation than lore to me. I don't think a mining village down there outright contradicts what we knew before?

And what's that about Hammerfell vampires? I must have missed that, sounds horrible.

Thing about Blackreach in ESO is it misses the mark. Skyrim BR was a lost paradise, deserted and serene. Compare this to ESO's version and it's visually too crowded and loree-wise too well-known.

So, the Hammerfell vampires. The Grey Host apparently originates from the Alik'ir. That's not a problem, but them having the vampire lord transformation is odd.
Clan Volkihar was said to be very stealthy and they were isolated on their isle. It makes sense for them to have this power and the outside world not knowing about it. They also have a grueling story as to how they got that power.
The Grey Host? How are they hiding in an open, empty desert? They also seem to be a rather famous vampire clan. So really, if they had the vampire lord, it would be known. And since they seemingly pre-date Serana, have they sent a couple maidens to pervy Molag, too? Making them the original lords and diminishing the importance of Volkihar?
This story, this lore... it's a mess.

Considering how little focus was actually put on the Gray Host in Greymoor - including the supposed villain - I still hold out hope that all of this will be fleshed out in the Q4 DLC. As of right now, it seems so confusing I'm inclined to disregard most of it outright. There's just not enough to piece a coherent backstory together.

And agreed on Blackreach. It might not be wrong per se, it just sucks.

Well, I'll be damned:

Update 28 Prologue Quest – A Gray Host Rises
Join Gwendis of House Ravenwatch as she seeks to uncover the mysterious origins of the dark army that now marches on Skyrim. Investigate historic sites across Tamriel with ties to the legendary Gray Host and uncover new revelations that will force the Ravenwatch to confront their secretive past.