The huge downtick in quality from Summerset to Greymoor

Vrienda

Greymoor disappointed me as a chapter. The writing was lazy, particularly for the side quests which all had predictable plots and outcomes, same that one old guy with the dog. The main quest had me scratching my head at multiple points, particularly the "big twist" towards the climax. I left the chapter feeling incredibly underwhelmed and none of the characters really interested me all that much. It was incredibly formulaic with tropes and plots we've seen a thousand times before.

But as both WoW and FF14 are in a bit of a content drought I decided to stick around and push my old Templar main through Summerset since I'd forgotten a lot of details about that chapter. And holy hell the difference is night and day. The quality of the quests, writing, world building. A chapter that actually respected our prior adventures and recognised what we had done over the course of the three year story arch that began as Orsinium ended. Playing THAT off the back of Greymoor completely blew me away, I had forgotten why I ever fell in love with this game until I sunk my teeth into Summerset. Just a few months ago I was considering ending the 6 year long subscription I've held with the game after having issues paying for it. Now don't get me wrong, Summerset isn't perfect and the Psijic order questline is one of the laziest questlines I've ever seen. But it just had so much more heart put into it. In Greymoor it seems like the writers just don't care. Our past history with characters like Lyris is brushed off in a single line of dialogue while Summerset is back here making references to Morrowind (Both side quests and main quests) and Clockwork City all over the place.

This is what made me fall in love with this game way back in the beta of January 2014. Seeing those characters I met on Stros M'kai move through the world, winding up in Glenumbra, Stormhaven and eventually the Al'akir. And then even making a return in the Dark Brotherhood DLC. But now your effort to make every chapter feel like a new game has cost us that connection to our character's past. The timeline is stagnant and confusing. Summerset was designed with you having played previous questlines in mind, but it allowed new players to proceed regardless. Greymoor feels the opposite, like it was designed for new players while old players are just kinda thrown into, completely disconnected from their past.

But you know what Summerset did that really blew me away? A minor delve quest giver on Artaeum appears in Orsinium once you've completed it. You're given no hint of this. And she's in the temple, a place so out of the way that most players would never think to go looking, but ZOS went and put her there anyway. Summerset was a chapter made with a real passion for the setting and the story. Greymoor feels like it was made to cash in on some vague sense of Skyrim nostalgia, there's no heart to it. And the greymoor caverns suck to navigate to boot, the amount of times I got stuck down the side of some rock and had to port to a wayshrine are beyond counting at this stage.

Do better ZOS, I know you can.

PS. On a positive note I'm really enjoying the antiquities system. Moreso than anything else in Greymoor.

Lord-Otto

Yup. Summerset was the last time ESO was actually good.

Hurbster

Can't argue with any of that.

Nestor

I finally started the Greymoor Main Quest the other night. I prefer to not do the quests as part of a Mob, so hold off the initial rush. Even avoiding all quest spoilers, I knew who the bad guy was the moment he spoke. Tired tropes and telegraphed plots do not make for an engaging story. I have not had much motivation to chase this story down, and I like quest content. The Greymoor quest remains unfinished, and I am not Thane of anything either.

I have decided to take an Alt through the Daggerfall Content, yes, the original 15 zones. That story content is still engaging.

Ashryn

I thought Summerset AND Elsweyr were both good and interesting writing. To be frank, I don't feel Skyrim was anywhere near worth its price, and the Harrowstorms still give out crap!

Ashryn

I should say that Southern Elsweyr was the one that shined the most for me. Northern Elsweyr's main quest line needed improvement; side quests were interesting.

Vrienda

Ashryn wrote: »

I thought Summerset AND Elsweyr were both good and interesting writing. To be frank, I don't feel Skyrim was anywhere near worth its price, and the Harrowstorms still give out crap!

I've forgotten most of Northern Elsweyr to be fair. That'll be my next stop once I've blasted through Murkmire. I remember somewhat liking Southern Elsweyr though.

MasterSpatula

I don't think ZOS realizes how much the high quality of the storytelling saves them from the poor quality of the gameplay, constant overreacting re-balancing, neverending nerfs, and genuinely horrid low-drop-rate RNG grinds.

But if they keep this up, they may learn. And that will make me sad, because I'd rather continue to experience this game at its best. I put up with a lot of bad because of what's great. If they lose the thing that keeps me here, why would I continue?

SidraWillowsky

I think it'll be hard to beat Morrowind -> Clockwork City -> Summerset because the Dunmer lore seems to be much more popular than Khajiit and even Nord lore. I'm not ALWAYS on board with some of his out of game lore (ie the Trial of Vivec, which undid a lot of what Vivec did to redeem himself a bit), but Michael Kirkbride built an amazing, rich, fascinating world via his work on Morrowind, and I think that's going to be very hard to beat. ESO's Morrowind did a good job of expanding that a bit without undoing the past stuff or going in a weird direction (sorry, but I cannot deal with Elsweyr and its dragons... I know it doesn't break lore but they plunked the thing that Skyrim revolves around into a weird place) and there's always the nostalgia factor.

And then there's Clockwork City.... After 15 years of being a mystery, we finally get to meet Sotha Sil. And man, did they knock it out of the park with him. I honestly think that's ESO's magnum opus and that they'd be hard-pressed to beat what they did with Sil. They greatly expanded on him as a character flawlessly, and there are so many interesting references to the TES Morrowind Tribunal expansion ("Prospect Almalexia: negative" and just the entire convo with him at the end of the quest) that somehow make his ending in the TES version less tragic but also portray him as more tragic in general.

Summerset, as someone mentioned, frequently references ESO Morrowind and CWC, and Sotha Sil plays a part.

I'm a Tribunal fanatic though, so this is very biased that said, even though I personally think that these three quests are the best that ESO will ever do, that doesn't mean that the terrible quality of Greymoor is justified.... EVERYTHING has a "best of" moment, but it can also have a lot of "almost as good" content, which ESO doesn't seem to be doing these days.

Western Skyrim doesn't feel the same- I don't feel the Skyrim nostalgia... It feels phoned in and rushed.

ArcVelarian

I'm fairly sure that the Pandemic plays a huge part in the lack of polish for this expansion, but that doesn't mean we should let ZeniMax off the hook or ease up on them. The Story Premise for The Dark Heart of Skyrim has a lot more promise than they've delivered so far. In fact I'm pretty sure most RPers in this game could cook up something more compelling.

Hurbster

I do feel that this 'year of' method of storytelling is detrimental to the overall quality of the storytelling itself.

For example, we get clues as to what is going on with the Daedra at the end of Wrothgar. And more hints in the Sweetroll Killer quest. This carries on through Morrowind, Clockwork City, and concludes in Summerset. Now (despite somehow getting Mephala and Nocturnal mixed up, and Veya becoming evil for reasons) that's a good, long well-told story. It was given time to grow and the stories were pretty much self-contained. Elsweyr was pretty good as well, with great NPC's throughout.

But now on our second 'year of' and it's getting stale already. We could have guessed that the main villain would bugger off and come back in the next part, they did that in Elsweyr. The writing was a big step-down, secondary villain being telegraphed all over the shop. And when it happens the heel turn just....happens. No explanation we just get the Austin Powers 'oh he was evil all along' trope. Not much explanation, side quests not that interesting (who else wanted words with Meridia ?) and don't get me started on Harrowstorms let alone all the bugs (getting lip-synching errors everywhere now). Oh and Rigurt is a well-meaning idiot and Narsis is still a pompous idiot. And Lyris just seems to be in a bad mood throughout the whole chapter. The only interesting NPC's are the ones we have seen before. If Fen had a personality I can't remember one. The collection quest was a step down in quality, where are the markers that told us where to put collected instruments? Whose idea was the initial wayshrine placement?


Blackreach was a technicolour fairyland, not the dark and dangerous place I remember. Very few sidequests (one with a very unsatisfying ending). The whole thing looked like a Roger Dean album cover, not gloomy or oppressive at all.


Yes, a definite drop down in quality for sure. And is the next bit going to be a tiny chunk of Skyrim and more caves ? Wonder why they have not given us Whiterun yet?

Dracane

My first reaction was to say: Look at Alinor and how lazy it is designed with aggressive clipping, ramps that lead into void and balconies with no doors so that NPCs could even enter them roleplay-wise.

But after reading, I have to agree. Summerset had indeed a lot more heart, even if in terms of world design, it is just as lazy if not lazier than Greymoor. They broke a lot of hearts with Summerset's architecture and design.

Maybe it is time to invite some different writers to bring some new air into the mix? Everything has become very predictable and the recipe is always the same. Which is only natural when it's always the same people writing.

Kadoin

They don't call it "the dark heart" for nothing...

YstradClud

The first quest I was greeted with when I got to Western Skyrim was for the trial. Obvious hint in the direction they are going.

Nareya726

Well said. One of the highlights of Summerset for me was how they not only brought back favorites like Raz and Darien (and acknowledged our past relationships with them), but they also made me care about the new characters Val and Leythan by giving them their own backstory, personalities, and motivations. In Greymoor, Lyris is extremely rude and condescending (especially given all we've been through), Svana is boring and cliche, and Fenn had potential but was severely underutilized and ending up feeling bland IMO. Even Southern Elsweyr's ending had an emotional impact with a certain character, but I'm really not invested in Greymoor's characters at all.

lucky_Sage

Greymoor was definitely not a great zone
I was hoping they would kee up with the puzzles they did in southern elswer I really enjoyed those quest and mixed with the worst performance ever.

stevenyaub16_ESO

I disagree. I think it excelled in some areas and not in others like all content.

What I really liked in Greymoor were the constant companions you would get with each mission, and each other those companions offered new dialogue with each area/load screen change, leading to tons of dialogue just for a single quest. It just made the whole main quest feel like a adventure novel.

Of course most people just zipped from objective to objective, so I can understand it feeling underwhelming to them, but for me it was the best main story experience I had in the DLCs so far.

Hurbster

I didn't rush through from objective to objective. Nothing stood out.


Maybe the drunk orc.

MasterSpatula

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

Of course most people just zipped from objective to objective, so I can understand it feeling underwhelming to them, but for me it was the best main story experience I had in the DLCs so far.

I'm pretty sure the overlap between "rushed from objective to objective" players and the "cares enough about the story to be able to critique it" crowds aren't very large.

Faulgor

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

I think it'll be hard to beat Morrowind -> Clockwork City -> Summerset because the Dunmer lore seems to be much more popular than Khajiit and even Nord lore.

I don't think that's it. Kirkbride in particular wrote a lot of cool Nord lore, the problem is that none of it was used in Greymoor (where are my snow whales at?). It's barely a Nord chapter at all. The most notable thing is the canonization of the original Skyrim design document that elaborated on the Nord pantheon (hearth gods, testing gods, etc), but that is just one small book in an otherwise forgettable zone, and it's not even represented anywhere else in the game. It's divines this divines that.

They did so much more with Khajiit lore last year. Just the Ashen Scar sidequest alone blows anything in Greymoor out of the water.

mairwen85

Dracane wrote: »

My first reaction was to say: Look at Alinor and how lazy it is designed with aggressive clipping, ramps that lead into void and balconies with no doors so that NPCs could even enter them roleplay-wise.

But after reading, I have to agree. Summerset had indeed a lot more heart, even if in terms of world design, it is just as lazy if not lazier than Greymoor. They broke a lot of hearts with Summerset's architecture and design.

Maybe it is time to invite some different writers to bring some new air into the mix? Everything has become very predictable and the recipe is always the same. Which is only natural when it's always the same people writing.

Summerset was never going to live up to the promise of its description in lore. It was far removed from the majesty and wonder of all the writings in every previous TES game, but it was cohesive in its design, and coherent in its story telling. Personally, I found the story longwinded, but I agree with most posters here that the chapter marked the end of ESO quality on that front. Elsweyr was predictable, greymoor is a repeat of the same story different setting, and is lacklustre. The zone is visually very well done, I can't deny that, but what has always made ESO shine has been its expansion of TES lore and richness of its writing; that latter point has been nosediving sharply since Summerset.

Kalik_Gold

Southern Elsywer quests were fun, brilliant and story driven. Summerset, Wrothgar and Morrowind are also incredible. I can’t even get into the Greymoor quest line Lyris and Fenn have horrible dialogue, haven’t started on Antiquities also.... this chapter Year is really underwhelming.

Nemesis7884

Cant argue that the quality seem to have gone down, I am wondering if its due to the release schedule that is very taxing or due to them focusing on balancing and performance issues and needing more resources there or if they basically try to reduce their "input" for standardized content that is basically the same every year in terms of content, story etc. (more of the same with minimal effort) to maximize profits on the other side...

But greymoor so far was definitely a bit disappointing compared to previous chapters in quality and depth and I am saying this as the biggest nord / skyrim fan...

wild_kmacdb16_ESO

I don't know who is on the writing team but I think it's time to bring in some relief pitchers if you know what I mean. A lack of a new combat skill line is also disappointing.

I will say the environment and new motifs are well done. And antiquities are an interesting diversion.

But on the whole, pretty lackluster for the asking price and its unfortunate ESO will stagnate for another year before we can expect more compelling content.

Aptonoth

I think they need to go back to a two year structure for the big plots, but they can spread out the plots and characters over 2 years but have 2 different provinces focuses per year just with one big overarching plot.

I think this would be for the best as its clear the writing is zooming by at too far of a rate and I can't get to know any of these characters or care about them.

Narvuntien

I kind of agree, Summerset has the deepest darkest quests. Like stab you in the hearts, super messed up stuff.

Elsweyr was a bit of change of pace but I didn't exactly dislike it, it was more traditional fantasy tropes but I think there is room for different kinds of chapters. Sometimes you want something a bit lighter.

I played only a little bit of Greymoor on the PTS and mostly the sidequests, I think the big difference is that a lot of the problems are super evil magic-related instead of interpersonal related like they are in summerset. When the problem is "evil magic" and obviously evil villains its not grey enough for the storytelling I want from ESO.

I think the problem is kind of having two chapters in a row like that rather than it being inherently bad.

I will note that Morrowind also had some very dark interpersonal conflicts going on that i liked.

BlueRaven

I wrote a whole post about Greymoor’s lackluster story;

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/532915/greymoors-story-and-how-it-could-have-been-better-heavy-spoilers#latest

Here is the main post;

•••

A common complaint about Greymoor is that the story was the least interesting of the DLC's thus far. Not because of the subject itself, but in the rather predictable story that seemed very simple compared to past DLC's. I just thought I would post my ideas to make the story better by making giving the characters a bit more depth and fixing some of the other elements that are bothering me in the game's world.

Obviously these are just my opinions. (And spoilers.)

High King Svargrim

Basically most of the games story's issues fall on the rather two dimensional depiction of the Western Skyrim's king. In the game he is depicted as a two dimensional bad guy who has a lust for power (vampire), why exactly he is willing to destroy his kingdom to become a vampire lord is not really explored. It's simply written off that he is mad for power. Other dlc's handled a king going bad much better, such as Wrothgar, here it just falls flat mainly because it is so telegraphed that the king is a bad guy, that the player is waiting to see what the actual twist will be. Only to learn later that there is in fact no twist.

However, what if there King had some cause to think his kingdom was in trouble? What if there WAS actual reports of Eastern Skyrim troops amassing near the border? This could easily have been done with a quest that showed the troops were actually vampires dressed as Eastern Skyrim's troops, in fact what if the vampires that take over Karthwatch were dressed as Eastern Skyrim troops to add to that paranoia. THEN the kings motivation in becoming vampire becomes more of a devils bargain. He wants/plots to become a Vampire lord to get power to SAVE his kingdom from a threat of invasion from the Ebonheart Pact, but the whole thing is a trick. And ends up becoming a pawn of the true vampire lord.

Queen Gerhyld

Another problem character who is only briefly shown in game. The king has her killed quite early and without any remorse or anger. Was this a loveless marriage the whole time? The game does not present itself that way. When did the King actually stop loving his family and his kingdom?

Again a better way of having her killed would have been if the Vampire assassin was disguised as an Ebonheart Pack member. Again reinforcing the kings paranoia of an imminent attack.

Also was I alone in thinking the queen was going to turn on us at one point? A nice plot twist would have been if a vampire were to mesmerize the queen making her do a complete 180 in how she treats us. Not essential for the plot but I was a bit surprised that a vampires mesmorize ability basically did not become a plot device somewhere in the story line.

Princess Svana

So the only child of the King and Queen just gets left to her own devices? She feels left out and just goes to a tavern all day? I would have thought the only child of the King and Queen would have been much more spoiled and dotted upon. Instead she seems depressed as she is left out of most of the royal dealings.

To me this makes zero sense, unless... Princess Svana has an older sibling. An older sibling (making the Princess NOT next inline to become ruler) would make her disenfranchisement from the royal court much more believable. She goes along with the Vestige as a way of helping her kingdom yes, but ALSO to show up the older sibling. AND if the older sibling is also willing to become a vampire along with their father, and their transformation is not as successful (becoming a feral vampire instead), then the King Svargrim's rage at his bad decision in becoming a vampire becomes the reason why he needs to be stopped. Instead of thinking clearly he starts attacking everything and the vestige has to put him down.

Princess Svana arc then becomes a bit more interesting. She goes from someone who did not expect to ever lead, to being the sole surviving member of her royal family with leadership thrust upon her. And another interesting twist could have been if she becomes paralyzed in indecision because of the events, creating a (temporary) drama in the court as others players start vying for power during the crisis. THEN having Princess Svana step up and become a leader becomes much more satisfying.

Blackreach

First let me say visually I love the zone, BUT there are WAAAAY too many people down there. The zone should have been much more devoid of above ground interaction.This is a mythical area that is shrouded in legend. There are too many people for me to believe that this area is a secret, nor that it will be forgotten. So how do we fix it?

Dusk Town

Eliminate it. Just start over. The town makes little sense to me.
First how are they getting food? Where is it grown? And if it is being carted from above THEN even MORE people know about the town and Blackreach. And why is there traditional Nord structures down there? Did they really bring all this wood all the way down there? Wouldn't they just find a dry sub-cave and set up there? It's just too much.

Now I understand the area does need a quest hub, so here is a better idea.

Make the quest hub the survivors of the Karthwatch attack. They basically run to a cave or barrow and become trapped in this legendary area. Suddenly the quests of this hub becomes helping them get help (food, medical injuries), find other survivors in Blackreach, and then getting all of them out. I can see it playing out a bit like Bleakrock Isle story arc, and not a weird Ghost hunters story. (There seems to be spirits everywhere in ESO, is anyone really doubting they exist?)

As for the rest of the caverns, quest starters could have been mysteriously malfunctioning dwemer devices, a vampire wanting to leave the bad guy vampires (and maybe joining Ravenwatch?) and the like. You don't need people from above ground giving out quests down there.

Falmer

It also surprised me how little the game goes into them, lore wise. It seems like they were almost an afterthought as so little is talked about them. They exist surrounding Dusk Town, but no one there seems to care or at least seem a bit creeped out about them. When people go missing, I would thought that the Falmer would be their chief concern, but apparently not.

Why this is I don't know, but why more history of the Falmer was not brought up. even in a side quest, seems bizarre to me. I could come up with some quest ideas, but really they should be pretty obvious.

•••

But it goes beyond the story;
Harrowstorms have such lackluster rewards I really have to wonder what they were thinking. (And why they have not been improved yet.)
Solitude really hits the nostalgia notes, but for crafting dailies it’s horrible.
The trial feels “ok” mechanics wise, but visually it’s a bit blah. Compared to elsweyr’s it’s fairly unmemorable.

I am sure the virus hampered them a bit, but the story and other mechanics were thought out a long time ago. It just feels a shame that for a title that could of brought in so many new players, they created (arguably) their worst dlc to date. It really feels like a blown opportunity.

mairwen85

Narvuntien wrote: »

I kind of agree, Summerset has the deepest darkest quests. Like stab you in the hearts, super messed up stuff.

Elsweyr was a bit of change of pace but I didn't exactly dislike it, it was more traditional fantasy tropes but I think there is room for different kinds of chapters. Sometimes you want something a bit lighter.

I played only a little bit of Greymoor on the PTS and mostly the sidequests, I think the big difference is that a lot of the problems are super evil magic-related instead of interpersonal related like they are in summerset. When the problem is "evil magic" and obviously evil villains its not grey enough for the storytelling I want from ESO.

I think the problem is kind of having two chapters in a row like that rather than it being inherently bad.

I will note that Morrowind also had some very dark interpersonal conflicts going on that i liked.

I think that's a great summation. What makes for an interesting villain is not the cardboard cutout big bad, but someone who does bad things with the best intentions. If you have a noble goal, but the methods to achieve it are damaging, or dangerous (killmonger in the mcu for example) it makes for a much richer plot, and more so if it has an interpersonal (not bs political) twist. Black and white polarised story lines are dull, we need more grey area plots.

PrayingSeraph

So while I do agree the quality has gone down, especially with Greymoor, I do notice these threads have appeared every single year. Morrowind was bashed post release, Summerset was bashed post release, Elsewyr etc.

Though I think it's fairly objective to critisize the story of Greymoor. As for the Dark Heart of Skyrim arc as a whole, we'll wait and see. The Reach has the potential to be REALLY awesome. The last two Q4 zone dlcs were good. Southern Elsweyr was really solid and Murkmire the year before was absolutely fantastic.

mairwen85

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

So while I do agree the quality has gone down, especially with Greymoor, I do notice these threads have appeared every single year. Morrowind was bashed post release, Summerset was bashed post release, Elsewyr etc.

Though I think it's fairly objective to critisize the story of Greymoor. As for the Dark Heart of Skyrim arc as a whole, we'll wait and see. The Reach has the potential to be REALLY awesome. The last two Q4 zone dlcs were good. Southern Elsweyr was really solid and Murkmire the year before was absolutely fantastic.

I don't agree on murkmire. In fact, it's been a templated formula for what's followed since. Always a reluctant protagonist, always a betrayal, always a usurper, always an obvious twist on who that'll be.

Faulgor

mairwen85 wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

I kind of agree, Summerset has the deepest darkest quests. Like stab you in the hearts, super messed up stuff.

Elsweyr was a bit of change of pace but I didn't exactly dislike it, it was more traditional fantasy tropes but I think there is room for different kinds of chapters. Sometimes you want something a bit lighter.

I played only a little bit of Greymoor on the PTS and mostly the sidequests, I think the big difference is that a lot of the problems are super evil magic-related instead of interpersonal related like they are in summerset. When the problem is "evil magic" and obviously evil villains its not grey enough for the storytelling I want from ESO.

I think the problem is kind of having two chapters in a row like that rather than it being inherently bad.

I will note that Morrowind also had some very dark interpersonal conflicts going on that i liked.

I think that's a great summation. What makes for an interesting villain is not the cardboard cutout big bad, but someone who does bad things with the best intentions. If you have a noble goal, but the methods to achieve it are damaging, or dangerous (killmonger in the mcu for example) it makes for a much richer plot, and more so if it has an interpersonal (not bs political) twist. Black and white polarised story lines are dull, we need more grey area plots.

Rada al-Saran is actually an interesting villain IMO, because his real motivation is to free his Gray Host buddies from enslavement in Coldharbour. It's just not really featured in the actual story line, it's a literal side note in Blackreach somewhere.
Even Svargrim's motivation to look for power in dark places out of paranoia and fear for his kingdom could at least be understandable, but the execution is so disappointingly lackluster ...