Okay, that damage is absolutely ridiculous.

LadyNalcarya

FabresFour wrote: »

Hurbster wrote: »

Story content is meant to be accessible to everyone. That's why we have vet content, arenas, PVP, and trials. Heck, they even beefed up world bosses.

Being accessible is completely different from having nonexistent difficulty. Skyrim is much more accessible than ESO, and mobs can be more difficult.

I know that one is singleplayer and the other is mmorpg. But still, accessibility and absurd ease in everything are completely different things.

This!
If they wanted to make the game accessible, they should've just taught people how to play it. That is actually needed because a lot of ESO players haven't played mmos before and could use a tutorial on how rotations work etc.
Making everything absurdly easy is just confusing (because there's such a huge difficulty gap between quests and dungeons/harrowstorms/world bosses) and frankly borderline insulting. Not to mention that it diminishes the impact of the story. It's kinda hard to believe that these easy mobs pose any threat to people of Skyrim.
It's also kinda annoying when people assume that if you don't like these *** easy bosses, you want everything to be on the same level as vet-dlc-hardmodes.

Everest_Lionheart

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

FabresFour wrote: »

Hurbster wrote: »

Story content is meant to be accessible to everyone. That's why we have vet content, arenas, PVP, and trials. Heck, they even beefed up world bosses.

Being accessible is completely different from having nonexistent difficulty. Skyrim is much more accessible than ESO, and mobs can be more difficult.

I know that one is singleplayer and the other is mmorpg. But still, accessibility and absurd ease in everything are completely different things.

This!
If they wanted to make the game accessible, they should've just taught people how to play it. That is actually needed because a lot of ESO players haven't played mmos before and could use a tutorial on how rotations work etc.
Making everything absurdly easy is just confusing (because there's such a huge difficulty gap between quests and dungeons/harrowstorms/world bosses) and frankly borderline insulting. Not to mention that it diminishes the impact of the story. It's kinda hard to believe that these easy mobs pose any threat to people of Skyrim.
It's also kinda annoying when people assume that if you don't like these *** easy bosses, you want everything to be on the same level as vet-dlc-hardmodes.

Have you seen any of your companions is battle? Worst fighters in the history of fighting in any game ever and some of them are in the fighter guild!

I want to see these undaunted guild NPC’s tackle a dungeon. The probably would get past the first trash pull!

caesarvs

Your post reminded me why, playing since 2016 (a month or two before one tamriel patch), the only zones i have fully completed their quests was auridon, grathwood and greenshade (when leveling my first character).
Except for Greymoor chapter, i have all the other dlcs and chapters, and still, havent completed (hell, havent even started lol) many of the their overland quests. I haven't done a single quest of elsweyr, dragonhold, and so on...
Dungeons and trials (and pvp, at less extension) are the only stuff i do. Its kinda sad because they are only a small portion of all the stuff eso has to offer, but still, questing in eso is like reading book, and if i'm playing a game i want PLAY IT, not "READ IT".


I miss the good old "leveled zones" age

SeaGtGruff

Sarousse wrote: »

I'm playing new world alpha right now, mobs hit hard, doing a 1v2 or v3 is very challenging, it's so damn cool not to one shot everything.

The sad thing is that eso devs will never go back on this part.

The weird thing is, that's pretty much how I play ESO all the time-- not one-shotting everything. And I'll be having a great time fighting 1vX in my leisurely fashion when somebody just has to come along and one-shot my opponents.

People can gripe all they want about how easy ESO is, and how it needs to be more difficult so they can't one-shot everything, but my observations in game tell me that most ESO players will never give up their ability to one-shot enemies because they clearly enjoy it so much.

And whenever something gets nerfed and players find out that they're no longer as powerful as they used to be, oh, boy, that's when the screaming in the forums really begins.

Personally, I wish they would add some kind of difficulty slider like in other ES games. In fact, I'd love to see a "Nerf you and the horse you rode in on" setting that basically removes your CP, nerfs your skills, and removes all of your riding lessons, so you can go around enjoying what it feels like to be a newb again.

Olauron

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Personally, I wish they would add some kind of difficulty slider like in other ES games. In fact, I'd love to see a "Nerf you and the horse you rode in on" setting that basically removes your CP, nerfs your skills, and removes all of your riding lessons, so you can go around enjoying what it feels like to be a newb again.

You forget two most important features to check whether players really want increased difficulty or not. It should also remove gold and crowns (being a crown-only 1-hour scroll like exp-scroll that also eats gold on using).

mairwen85

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Sarousse wrote: »

I'm playing new world alpha right now, mobs hit hard, doing a 1v2 or v3 is very challenging, it's so damn cool not to one shot everything.

The sad thing is that eso devs will never go back on this part.

The weird thing is, that's pretty much how I play ESO all the time-- not one-shotting everything. And I'll be having a great time fighting 1vX in my leisurely fashion when somebody just has to come along and one-shot my opponents.

People can gripe all they want about how easy ESO is, and how it needs to be more difficult so they can't one-shot everything, but my observations in game tell me that most ESO players will never give up their ability to one-shot enemies because they clearly enjoy it so much.

And whenever something gets nerfed and players find out that they're no longer as powerful as they used to be, oh, boy, that's when the screaming in the forums really begins.

Personally, I wish they would add some kind of difficulty slider like in other ES games. In fact, I'd love to see a "Nerf you and the horse you rode in on" setting that basically removes your CP, nerfs your skills, and removes all of your riding lessons, so you can go around enjoying what it feels like to be a newb again.

You need the top end power for group content, but it renders overland pathetic. So a customised overland de-buff is the only solution that addresses both concerns.

At the same time, I don't think it's an unrealistic or unreasonable request to expect some overland and quest elements to require a player to make use of the most basic aspects of combat (dodge, block, interrupt) and a degree positional awareness for survivability. You shouldn't have to be a dps demi-god for overland, but the game should require you to play defensively at the very least so you are prepared for group content. Players new to group content moan about toxic elitists and being locked out--seasoned players moan about having to carry, or be burdened by new comers. Both player groups have their issue resolved by bumping overland difficulty just a touch so it teaches not standing in stupid and getting the f*ck out of doge.

• Mobs can die just as quickly, but hit a bit harder.
• Story bosses should have interesting mechanics for meaningful experiences and effectively have the ability through that to slow or restrict dps .

Eifleber

Well I guess it's the big problem that comes with downscaling.

In games with no downscaling or just upscaling you can pick your own challenge. If you want to take it easy you pick targets at your own or a bit below your own level, if you want some more excitement you pick monsters above your level.

ESO doesn' t offer that possibility because almost everything automatically scales to 3 levels below your own level.

eKsDee

Eifleber wrote: »

Well I guess it's the big problem that comes with downscaling.

In games with no downscaling or just upscaling you can pick your own challenge. If you want to take it easy you pick targets at your own or a bit below your own level, if you want some more excitement you pick monsters above your level.

ESO doesn' t offer that possibility because almost everything automatically scales to 3 levels below your own level.

Scaling has nothing to do with it, GW2 also downscales players to match the zone level, and doesn't have this problem (overland is easier than group content, but no where near the degree of overland in ESO).

It's just a matter of the player scaling too high in relation to the mobs (for those under CP 160), and the mobs being severely under-leveled in relation to the player (for those over CP 160). Raise mob level up to a better middleground, raise the level ceiling for scaling to match, and reduce the effectiveness of scaling, and overland will be in a better spot.

To add a sense of progression through zones back in, the game can just spawn harder variants of mobs the further into the zone progression you get, while still scaling the same.

JTD

So a side thought here..

Overland is 160cp right? But players below 50 get a major buff?
And players above 160cp get their cp advantages right?
Does that then mean that overland is only 'balanced' (and i use the term very loosely for cp 1 - 160 players?

Then why not (in my case) scale my 'overland CP' down to 160 or the mobs i fight up to cp 810?
That could be a place to start and then adjust from there?
I mean we have had an off PTS cycle for the LA/HA tryout.. why not this?

Kiralyn2000

I guess it's always nice to have confirmation that you suck.

I've never one-shot anything. On my Magplar, delve bosses take a charge, a few sets of jabs, and a jesus beam or two (yeah, there's no chance of them killing me, but it doesn't just go down). Haven't really done well soloing world bosses, never tried to solo a dungeon, did a Craglorn party delve but it was an un-fun slog. Bit of a rough time soloing geysers, depending on what boss pops.
Of course, I've never followed a guide except once to see what a starting point for the Magplar was. My CP (~600) are probably assigned less-than-ideally (again, no guide - just looking at what they say and picking what sounds useful).

I only ever tried nMA once on my original "main" - an honestly poor "I just came here from Skyrim" Bow/- Stealth StamBlade build without Vigor . (The other two 'main' alts are the dual-sword/- Magplar, and a Bow/- Stamden)


But don't worry, I never clutter up your dungeon runs.

mairwen85

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

I guess it's always nice to have confirmation that you suck.

I've never one-shot anything. On my Magplar, delve bosses take a charge, a few sets of jabs, and a jesus beam or two (yeah, there's no chance of them killing me, but it doesn't just go down). Haven't really done well soloing world bosses, never tried to solo a dungeon, did a Craglorn party delve but it was an un-fun slog. Bit of a rough time soloing geysers, depending on what boss pops.
Of course, I've never followed a guide except once to see what a starting point for the Magplar was. My CP (~600) are probably assigned less-than-ideally (again, no guide - just looking at what they say and picking what sounds useful).

I only ever tried nMA once on my original "main" - an honestly poor "I just came here from Skyrim" Bow/- Stealth StamBlade build without Vigor . (The other two 'main' alts are the dual-sword/- Magplar, and a Bow/- Stamden)


But don't worry, I never clutter up your dungeon runs.

I don't get your counterpoint? Are you saying you have built your characters in a way which isn't ideal because the game hasn't taught you, and you refuse to look at materials and content created by users outside of what the game provides you with?

If so, that pretty much illustrates the very point several people in this thread are trying to make. The game currently doesn't give you the information or exposure to challenge or context to learn those things. You get the tools, but no manual. You might not die from or not really have a rough time with overland content, and you may very well be able to clear it because it doesn't push difficulty on you--but in the same frame, that has robbed you of the experience to better and progress your characters organically into group content.

Mortiis13

Why not a reverse hardmode aka easy mode? Make the story bosses dangerous if u ignore the mechanics, if it's to hard for the ADULT and he died and won't a chalange he can activate a "whatever" before the fight, to make it faceroll like it is actually.

The whole story you hear how dangerous all is, how mighty they are and then you meet those wet noodles...

mairwen85

Mortiis13 wrote: »

Why not a reverse hardmode aka easy mode? Make the story bosses dangerous if u ignore the mechanics, if it's to hard for the ADULT and he died and won't a chalange he can activate a "whatever" before the fight, to make it faceroll like it is actually.

The whole story you hear how dangerous all is, how mighty they are and then you meet those wet noodles...

Entire armies can't take them down, but a stern backhand from the vestige sorts them all out. It says more about the other champions and people of Tamriel really.

Mortiis13

Tigerseye wrote: »

JTD wrote: »

Sadly a game can be to easy and i think ESO fell into the trap of creating an mmo for everybody. The thing is Elder Scrolls players, a generalization, are not mmorpg-players. As a result this game caters to everybody and no-one.

Well, at launch, even regular mobs were fairly challenging.

But, apparently, there were complaints and so, it evolved in the way it did.

Let me guess, the complaints came from a very loud screaming minority? ;P

I'm mainly a pvp player, yesterday I had troubles to get into the mechanic of a vet dlc dungeon (first time) thankfully the heal and tank were very friendly and taked their time to explain me everything. After 5/6 trys we got it and I didn't even died. I would never ever call for nerfs just because I wasn't able to roflstomp a content that I'm new to. It was the best dungeon run for a long time.

whitecrow

All quest related bosses, including minibosses, should be much harder. Nothing more anticlimactic than having it fall before it's even finished its first taunt.

navystylz_ESO

ZOS thinks players are extremely stupid. And to be honest, a lot of them fit the bill with the crap they can't figure out on their own. Even puzzles finish themselves in Greymoor. Just keep clicking and when it's in the right spot it will shift and complete itself.

I don't think half the players in this game could handle GW2's combat. Make mistake on certain fights even in overland content and it's boom; faceplant. Granted, you don't have the healing capablity on most builds that you get in ESO either.

tomofhyrule

I feel like we constantly see the same thread over and over again. "I want to have harder overland!" "Nerf yourself!" "No, not that!" etc. ad nauseam.

I think what people want the most is mechanics on overland bosses. And I'm sorry to say it, but that would require a redesign of the entire game from the ground up, and is not gonna happen.

Consider your basic dungeons like Volenfell versus Moon Hunter Keep. Volenfell's major mechanic is that the three bosses do different attacks, and that's about it. Otherwise you can just go through the dungeon without really prepping. Moon Hunter? Every boss needs some decent teamwork to not get wiped. Every boss has complex mechanics you need to coordinate.

However, they are listening when it comes to newer zones. Look at the WBs in the DLC zones versus the WBs in the base zones - the DLC ones are much longer fights, where you have to deal with loads of hard-hitting adds (shudders in Ri'Atarashi) or minor mechanics. I also noticed that even Sister Tharda (one of the first story bosses in Greymoor) has a mechanically intense fight where she summons adds and goes invulnerable at times.

You would think that this would be what people want for everywhere, but gameplay seems to show that people avoid this optional content since it's 'harder.' How many times does someone post in Vvardenfell /zone "help needed at WB" and get nobody to come, despite everyone sitting in Vivec doing writs? Why? Vvardenfell WBs are really tough, and yet nobody wants to bother. Same with most of NElsweyr's dragons except the one that lands next to the wayshrine - those hit harder and take longer to go down than the SElsweyr ones, and they're not easy to warp to, so barely anyone bothers.

So people will clamor that they want harder content, but then you see very few people actually doing the harder content here. And I'm not even talking about trials, I'm talking about WBs in DLC zones. It seems nobody even wants to bother with things like Thrall Cove unless there is a double drop event because ostensibly the reward is not worth the aggravation.

One thing I'd like for them to have done is make the zone story bosses be in instanced rooms, so you didn't have to deal with some OP person running in and taking your big boss down in two hits before you could even talk to them. But I can't see them redoing the entire mechanics of the fight without rebuilding the game from scratch.

Now I will say that I don't usually take those bosses down in one or two hits. But that's because I've built a tank so I have basically no weapon damage. I even have a lot of times when I lose to them, but that's because I like to write my character's story and take screenshots, and it's hard to fight well when I'm too busy trying to set up a picture rather than fight back.

So yes, if you nerf yourself, the bosses don't go down in two hits. But we won't be getting the old bosses redone with mechanics. Instead, why not do some of the harder overland content? Help some new players with the harder WBs in other zones; they are designed to be tougher.

mairwen85

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I feel like we constantly see the same thread over and over again. "I want to have harder overland!" "Nerf yourself!" "No, not that!" etc. ad nauseam.

I think what people want the most is mechanics on overland bosses. And I'm sorry to say it, but that would require a redesign of the entire game from the ground up, and is not gonna happen.

Consider your basic dungeons like Volenfell versus Moon Hunter Keep. Volenfell's major mechanic is that the three bosses do different attacks, and that's about it. Otherwise you can just go through the dungeon without really prepping. Moon Hunter? Every boss needs some decent teamwork to not get wiped. Every boss has complex mechanics you need to coordinate.

However, they are listening when it comes to newer zones. Look at the WBs in the DLC zones versus the WBs in the base zones - the DLC ones are much longer fights, where you have to deal with loads of hard-hitting adds (shudders in Ri'Atarashi) or minor mechanics. I also noticed that even Sister Tharda (one of the first story bosses in Greymoor) has a mechanically intense fight where she summons adds and goes invulnerable at times.

You would think that this would be what people want for everywhere, but gameplay seems to show that people avoid this optional content since it's 'harder.' How many times does someone post in Vvardenfell /zone "help needed at WB" and get nobody to come, despite everyone sitting in Vivec doing writs? Why? Vvardenfell WBs are really tough, and yet nobody wants to bother. Same with most of NElsweyr's dragons except the one that lands next to the wayshrine - those hit harder and take longer to go down than the SElsweyr ones, and they're not easy to warp to, so barely anyone bothers.

So people will clamor that they want harder content, but then you see very few people actually doing the harder content here. And I'm not even talking about trials, I'm talking about WBs in DLC zones. It seems nobody even wants to bother with things like Thrall Cove unless there is a double drop event because ostensibly the reward is not worth the aggravation.

One thing I'd like for them to have done is make the zone story bosses be in instanced rooms, so you didn't have to deal with some OP person running in and taking your big boss down in two hits before you could even talk to them. But I can't see them redoing the entire mechanics of the fight without rebuilding the game from scratch.

Now I will say that I don't usually take those bosses down in one or two hits. But that's because I've built a tank so I have basically no weapon damage. I even have a lot of times when I lose to them, but that's because I like to write my character's story and take screenshots, and it's hard to fight well when I'm too busy trying to set up a picture rather than fight back.

So yes, if you nerf yourself, the bosses don't go down in two hits. But we won't be getting the old bosses redone with mechanics. Instead, why not do some of the harder overland content? Help some new players with the harder WBs in other zones; they are designed to be tougher.

Why not take the screenshots during and write afterwards?

They do not have to redesign from the ground up if they just make things hit a bit harder and increase base resistances, and put some creative thinking into the big bad story meanie for future content. I'm not asking for much retroactive work, but a less brain dead approach for future mainly.

exeeter702

There are two types of players when it comes to sitting down to play a video game.

Those that want to shut their brain off and those that want to turn it up to 11.

The issue with ESO is that it does nothing to condition and inspire its brand new players. It doesnt try to gently over the course of leveling, push them outside their comfort zone, not even as much as a slap on the wrist for failure. When you combine this with the abundance of double exp events and a showing of hand me down xp scrolls, you end up with a majority of the player base being will into 300+ cp with no clue how to approach the games harder content offerings.

Now, you often see a few rebuttas to this topic in the form of "quest / overland content is for story, if you want to be challenged, there is other content for you"

This response I always find amusing because not only does it assume the average human being playing an mmo rpg is unwilling or incapable of rising to the occasion to meet a win condition set forth by the developer but it also sidesteps one of the greatest strengths of the video game medium that no other story telling medium can take advantage of... there is truly something to be said for writing a strong story for a video game and having the wind completely siphoned from its sails when the audience / player finally meets the final encounter and it's an absolute pushover, completely deflating any climax that would be.

The other rebuttal you see is "if you want to make it a challenge, take off your gear, dont spend cp or use items x y or z"

The issue with this is that arbitrarily handicapping oneself in a game for an artificial difficulty boost completely robs the game of its agency and makes light of its design shortcomings. Use that in an online mmorpg and it's even further amplified since power progression and character development along with using aquired resources to overcome obstacles is one of the principle pinnacles of the genre.

I like to assume the average player is not a vegetable and is capable of putting forth an effort to clear a challenge in a video game they are playing, ESPECIALLY if it comes with the payoff to a well told story arc. Moreso then that, developers need to not be afraid to let their playerbase fail to achieve win conditions. They need to be willing to respect their playerbase enough to say "it's ok if you fail, here are the tools you need and here are the lessons you need to learn to beat this, keep at it and you will beat it, and eventually when you reach end game you will be a much better player".

I am a proud memeber of the FGC, I was raised in arcades throughout the 90s, and I know what it means to put up your money only for the privilege of losing and learning against an impossible challenge (in this case an experienced player). I've seen competitors at evo playing with their mouth because they have no motor function in their extremities. I'm simply not tolerant of the argument that a game needs to be so easy that anyone can play it without resistance.

If someone like this can beat me clean as they did
https://youtu.be/s1MYSgy4QMw

10 year old timmy and 60 year old susan should be able to at the very least flex a brain stem to beat an overland quest boss In the video game they have decided to sit down and play.