Okay, that damage is absolutely ridiculous.

FabresFour

This post contains spoilers from Greymoor's main quest


I understand the need to let the main quests casual because of the new players. I find it ridiculous, extremely disrespectful to the old players, but I still understand.

I understand enough to create a new character and make this new story with a friend. Both starting characters without using any ready-made set or anything, just using the things that the scenario provided for us.

We finished the main quest at level 24 (we don’t distribute the CP, of course). We didn't have a complete set. We didn't have a set with a color above green, and most of them were already dated.

And yet, we stayed for three minutes in front of a *** Vampire Lord laughing because he was unable to shorten our life.. Our regeneration, even without a CP, even without a set, was enough for our life to regenerate quickly.

That was one of the most deplorable things I have ever seen in my life. It was so deplorable that we were playing with memento during the fight, to make it slightly more interesting.

Honestly, Zenimax. This kind of thing is offensive not only for us, but for any player, newbie or not.

FabresFour

I forgot to mention: we were playing without any hint of combat. We removed absolutely everything, including interface and damage area. And yet, even so, it was absolutely pathetic.

We even had the rule of only attacking with light attacks, to make the boss last longer.

BohnT2

That's how they've managed to create a playerbase where 40% of the groups trying to do vDC2 fail.
Can't be suprised that people have no clue what interrupts, La weaving, dodge, avoiding AoEs, healing etc. are because in all overland quest there simply is no requirement to ever make use of that.

NoodleESO

I mentioned in a post before I could afk and the allied npc will literally kill the boss herself with her light attack spam

kojou

I once killed NPCs with Riposte on my tank just to see if it could be done...

Kurat

And then people queue for vet dlc dungeons. Afterall, I'm the hero of Tamriel, savior of this and that.

MartiniDaniels

You have powerful boosts to new character, so of course it is easy.
You must play CP160+ character without CP distributed, without food (provided by level up/daily rewards in abundance though) and without distributing attributes/skill points (though games advice it with huge splash-screen and sound que each lvl up).
That's how all newbies play
/s

Mr_Walker

Zos needs and wants to attract players of all skills to be able to play the game. They don't cater specifically for your needs. There's plenty of challenging content out there.

ArchMikem

They could at least give Quest Bosses 350k to 500k health pools. Make the fights last longer if they wont make them harder.

Gilvoth

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Zos needs and wants to attract players of all skills to be able to play the game. They don't cater specifically for your needs. There's plenty of challenging content out there.

this ^

mavfin

ArchMikem wrote: »

They could at least give Quest Bosses 350k to 500k health pools. Make the fights last longer if they wont make them harder.

That's not challenge. That's tedium.

BohnT2

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Zos needs and wants to attract players of all skills to be able to play the game. They don't cater specifically for your needs. There's plenty of challenging content out there.

There's a difference of challenging and being an insult to the playerbase treating them like a squirrel with brain damage.
We're talking about things that toddlers could do.

The whole game and every player would highly benefit from having at least mildly challenging overland content.

This requires the game to properly teach people what to do but it will be worth it in the long run, to use another analogy, the current overland content is the equivalent of not teaching children how to read.
There is a huge gap that the devs want to close but it's not because content is too hard but content that is too easy and doesn't teach anything.

But it comes at no suprise that handing a test to someone who can't even read let alone write which forces him to write a novel that he will fail and has no chance of doing it unless he was taught elsewhere.

To make things even worse, the game tries to teach people the base mechanics with the tutorial but then decides to just stop making use of those taught mechanics.
A new player stepping into the game will be overwhelmed by so many things, new skill, new world, lots of options, quests etc that he'll forget everything about the first 15 min over the course of the next hundred hours he'll spend with doing overland quests because the game just never encourages you to use those things again.


No matter what the devs will try unless they teach people properly they'll never close the gap and this will be for the disadvantage of both sides.
Endgame players will stop because their content gets deleted and every minor piece of skillful gameplay gets removed like bash weaving this patch and so many other things over the past.
For new players they will keep to mindlessly walk around the world and be unhappy because they can't improve.

Mr_Walker

Sure, OK, every trash mob should have full on hard-core mechanics, and it should take me half an hour to travel 10 feet. Awesome fun. Until I have a brain aneurysm.

People who want to learn will go into a dungeon/trial and learn, others (and a great many by the looks of it), are happy to just wander around overland doing their thing.

Kiralyn2000

FabresFour wrote: »

That was one of the most deplorable things I have ever seen in my life.

Goodness, you've lead a charmed life.

Noxavian

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Zos needs and wants to attract players of all skills to be able to play the game. They don't cater specifically for your needs. There's plenty of challenging content out there.

[snip]


Hey, [snip] wanna know why the Lich King and bosses from WoW and other MMOs are very hard on release? Because it makes their fight memorable. Challenges = memories! Nobody is going to remember this boss fight. Most of the people I talk with don't even remember the main Bad Guy's name he was that forgettable. (EDIT: Even though I clarified this in another post on this thread, I do not mean to make story bosses raid level. You all act like you've never had a challenging single-character boss fight before...)

There's a difference between catering to casuals and ruining what COULD be very memorable stuff.

Imagine if you actually had to learn a strat to beat the boss easily? Imagine if it had actual mechanics that took you a couple of times to beat?

That is what makes a boss and big bad character memorable. Not that they die like a limp lvl 3 adventurer.

To put it simply: no, not every player has the right to just be able to sneeze on every boss in the story and win. Stories are meant to be IMPACTFUL and **bosses** are challenging. I genuinely don't know of a single game that has easier story bosses than ESO.

And no, saying "well there is vet content guyyyyys" doesn't count. No one is asking for the boss to be vet-level hard. It should just require some....you know....mechanic learning and actually using more than 1 ability.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Noxavian

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Sure, OK, every trash mob should have full on hard-core mechanics, and it should take me half an hour to travel 10 feet. Awesome fun. Until I have a brain aneurysm.

People who want to learn will go into a dungeon/trial and learn, others (and a great many by the looks of it), are happy to just wander around overland doing their thing.

[snip] this post is directly about the FINAL BOSS of the ENTIRE chapter.

No one is saying anything about overland content.

Yes, every single trash mob having hardcore mechanics would suck.

But again, this post is about BOSSES. You know, those things that aren't trash mobs? The guy who is hyped up all chapter? Yeah him.

Go ahead, explain to me how having to use your brain for once on the bosses of a big epic story line would be bad.

Want to do easy overland content? It's there for you. Main story/chapter bosses aren't overland content. They're literally supposed to be the chapter's Lich King. They're supposed to be HARD to beat. Or at the very least challenging.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Noxavian

FabresFour wrote: »

This post contains spoilers from Greymoor's main quest


I understand the need to let the main quests casual because of the new players. I find it ridiculous, extremely disrespectful to the old players, but I still understand.

I understand enough to create a new character and make this new story with a friend. Both starting characters without using any ready-made set or anything, just using the things that the scenario provided for us.

We finished the main quest at level 24 (we don’t distribute the CP, of course). We didn't have a complete set. We didn't have a set with a color above green, and most of them were already dated.

And yet, we stayed for three minutes in front of a *** Vampire Lord laughing because he was unable to shorten our life.. Our regeneration, even without a CP, even without a set, was enough for our life to regenerate quickly.

That was one of the most deplorable things I have ever seen in my life. It was so deplorable that we were playing with memento during the fight, to make it slightly more interesting.

Honestly, Zenimax. This kind of thing is offensive not only for us, but for any player, newbie or not.

I wanna say I'm absolutely disgusted at all of these people in this community that are fine with the literal BIG BAD EVIL GUY of the entire chapter being soloable by anyone at any level with the press of 1 button.

Absolutely disgusted

[snip]

Like dude, yeah. Like there isn't a reason why bosses are hard on release in MMOs. It doesn't make them memorable. Lich king? Death wing? Sargarus? All memorable, challenging boss fights from WoW. Of course I'm not asking to make these bosses in ESO RAID level. But they need to at least be challenging for a single player. If I can go in and kill the boss with 1 ability while just sitting there, something is wrong.

[snip]

Even bosses in OTHER elder scrolls games, as long as you weren't playing on Novice, were decently hard.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

karekiz

Noxavian wrote: »

[

Hey, bud, wanna know why the Lich King and bosses from WoW and other MMOs are very hard on release? Because it makes their fight memorable. Challenges = memories! Nobody is going to remember this boss fight. Most of the people I talk with don't even remember the main Bad Guy's name he was that forgettable.

I agree to finish the main story you must complete Kynes Aegis.

Also remove normal mode from KA. Just leat Vet/Vet HM. Kthx

Noxavian

karekiz wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

[

Hey, bud, wanna know why the Lich King and bosses from WoW and other MMOs are very hard on release? Because it makes their fight memorable. Challenges = memories! Nobody is going to remember this boss fight. Most of the people I talk with don't even remember the main Bad Guy's name he was that forgettable.

I agree to finish the main story you must complete Kynes Aegis.

Also remove normal mode from KA. Just leat Vet/Vet HM. Kthx

I clarified that I didn't want to make the bosses raid level.

But go ahead, assume that.

[snip] there indeed is an ability to have challenge without being a raid/vet thing.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Mr_Walker

Noxavian wrote: »

Imagine being this low to think that the MAIN BOSS OF THE ENTIRE CHAPTER has to be casual-friendly and require no thought process.

Yes, zos' philosophy is obviously to have it so every player is capable of beating the overland story. Nothing wrong with that. I don't find it challenging myself, but I understand the reasoning behind it.

Noxavian wrote: »

Hey, bud

I'm not your bud.

Noxavian wrote: »

Angry mode activated

You do know, there's a whole world out there, chock full of real challenges, and even chock fuller of things you could legitimately be outraged about.

Noxavian

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

Imagine being this low to think that the MAIN BOSS OF THE ENTIRE CHAPTER has to be casual-friendly and require no thought process.

Yes, zos' philosophy is obviously to have it so every player is capable of beating the overland story. Nothing wrong with that. I don't find it challenging myself, but I understand the reasoning behind it.

Noxavian wrote: »

Hey, bud

I'm not your bud.

Noxavian wrote: »

Angry mode activated

You do know, there's a whole world out there, chock full of real challenges, and even chock fuller of things you could legitimately be outraged about.

There is something objectively wrong about everyone on any level being able to beat the boss of the main story. Just because it is a philosophy they have doesn't mean it is a good one.

And believe me, I do know there's a whole world out there full of real challenges. But I'm wanting challenge in the main story of my favorite MMO.

What is wrong with that? Every other MMO does it. Why can't ESO? There's a reason ESO is no where near as popular as FFXIV or WoW. Not saying it's that it has literally 0 memorable chapter bosses, but....it is a contributing factor. Remember Zumong phoom? Yeah I wouldn't. He got an entire story arc dedicated to him in Elsweyr and I bet you 90% of people that played that chapter last year when it came out have no idea what the heck a "Zumong Phoom" is. Most people don't even know the name of the main big-bad dragon in Elsweyr. Yet everyone and their mother knows who Alduin from Skyrim is.

Mr_Walker

Noxavian wrote: »

There is something objectively wrong about everyone on any level being able to beat the boss of the main story.

Subjectively wrong. Not objectively wrong. Objectively wrong would be the statement 2+2=7.

Everest_Lionheart

The game actually gets harder once you hit level 50. The training wheels come off and the hidden stat boosts go away. Base HP drops to 10K and decisions have to be made in the name of survivability. Now on certain builds even 10K HP is more than enough because some classes have healing and mitigation built in to their passives. You’ll need to start choosing proper armour pieces and sets to either boost your DPS, sustain or health. Now honestly you can power through most of it and all chapter finals bosses are really no stronger than a delve boss.

The real challenge comes with, wait for it...

Group content. This is an MMO after all no? If you want epic boss fights seek out world bosses. If you want punishing solo content hit some of the group events in Craglorn solo or base game 4 man dungeons alone. Some of those DLC world bosses are super hard with real mechanics you have to pay attention to if you solo or group with 1 other person. They are also a bit more tanky. Those battles are memorable. You first win at Maelstrom arena is memorable. The 20th time farming for a particular piece of gear that won’t drop not so much!

Some DLC dungeons will wear you out. Trials will do the same. Those are memorable battles. Chapter and zone bosses are merely conclusions to stories, just a vehicle to get the narrative over the finish line. Could they be better, sure. Still less skilled players, new players and also folks with disabilities playing with adapted controllers need that sense of accomplishment for finishing some content as well.

Bottom line none of it needs to be any harder. I wouldn’t argue with boosting the difficulty a bit If they choose to do that in the future but I think overall the game is OK where it’s at currently.

Noxavian

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

There is something objectively wrong about everyone on any level being able to beat the boss of the main story.

Subjectively wrong. Not objectively wrong. Objectively wrong would be the statement 2+2=7.

name 1 game where a starting level (equivalent to ESO's level 3) character can beat the final boss with no glitches/hacks/or extreme skill.

Noxavian

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

The game actually gets harder once you hit level 50. The training wheels come off and the hidden stat boosts go away. Base HP drops to 10K and decisions have to be made in the name of survivability. Now on certain builds even 10K HP is more than enough because some classes have healing and mitigation built in to their passives. You’ll need to start choosing proper armour pieces and sets to either boost your DPS, sustain or health. Now honestly you can power through most of it and all chapter finals bosses are really no stronger than a delve boss.

The real challenge comes with, wait for it...

Group content. This is an MMO after all no? If you want epic boss fights seek out world bosses. If you want punishing solo content hit some of the group events in Craglorn solo or base game 4 man dungeons alone. Some of those DLC world bosses are super hard with real mechanics you have to pay attention to if you solo or group with 1 other person. They are also a bit more tanky. Those battles are memorable. You first win at Maelstrom arena is memorable. The 20th time farming for a particular piece of gear that won’t drop not so much!

Some DLC dungeons will wear you out. Trials will do the same. Those are memorable battles. Chapter and zone bosses are merely conclusions to stories, just a vehicle to get the narrative over the finish line. Could they be better, sure. Still less skilled players, new players and also folks with disabilities playing with adapted controllers need that sense of accomplishment for finishing some content as well.

Bottom line none of it needs to be any harder. I wouldn’t argue with boosting the difficulty a bit If they choose to do that in the future but I think overall the game is OK where it’s at currently.

What would be wrong with making story bosses require thinking?

Genuine question.

The guys that are hyped up all chapter. The ones you go through all of these quest lines to face. Why can't they be challenging?

Why does challenge NOT correlate with that at all? Not even in the slightest? Why must there be such a big divide?

Mr_Walker

Noxavian wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Noxavian wrote: »

There is something objectively wrong about everyone on any level being able to beat the boss of the main story.

Subjectively wrong. Not objectively wrong. Objectively wrong would be the statement 2+2=7.

name 1 game where a starting level (equivalent to ESO's level 3) character can beat the final boss with no glitches/hacks/or extreme skill.

How would doing so mean it's objectively wrong?

ArchMikem

mavfin wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

They could at least give Quest Bosses 350k to 500k health pools. Make the fights last longer if they wont make them harder.

That's not challenge. That's tedium.

Its something. Im personally not looking for challenge, but meaning. Bosses are defeated so quickly theyre cut off mid monologue. I defeated one supposedly important enemy NPC by activating Toxic Barrage. I did nothing else, the Ult was enough.

Hurbster

Story content is meant to be accessible to everyone. That's why we have vet content, arenas, PVP, and trials. Heck, they even beefed up world bosses.

Derra

Hurbster wrote: »

Story content is meant to be accessible to everyone. That's why we have vet content, arenas, PVP, and trials. Heck, they even beefed up world bosses.

If you read bohns post you´d understand it´s not about making it inaccessible to people.
It´s about providing content that encourages people to improve and help them in doing so by providing them with parts of the harder content ahead of them to learn and get used to it.

This would benefit newer players in two ways:
1. It would be rewarding to finish content - nothing is more frustrating than realising you don´t even have to try because the devs think you´re a moron anyway.
2. It would enable them to play more parts of the game afterwards. Right now the gap between overland content compared to newer normal DLC, vet and arena content is so huge for players with little game knowledge that most of them won´t ever make that leap - that´s a failure of the developers imo.

Dusk_Coven

Sounds unlikely. Do you have a video?

colossalvoids

If they hype up some "great evil that needs to be put down" probably upcoming battle should be 100% instanced and have difficulty set according to cp level or just simple normal/vet switch. Right now it's not even near memorable, complemented with not so great story and treating players as toddlers not helping in a slightest.