Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Why should they? You never farmed for a perfected one so you should not have them handed to you
As for the imperfect wepon in normal, its just to be like the rest of the perfected system
Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »I remember when the Clockwork city patch came out and zos nerfed our "perfected" versions of the vMA and vDSA weapons because of power creep. Now they added back some buffs and want us to do the same old unchanged content again to get weapons that are hopefully as strong as they were before the first nerf. And I bet Zos nerfs arena weapons again later on to combat power creep and we go through the same cycle over and over because spray painting a busted car is easier than fixing the engine. Also, rip the Asylum weapons. I agree that the destro staff's glitch should've been fixed, but it should've been done without tossing in an additional cornholing with no lube.
They. Were. Not. Nerfed. With. That. Change.
They changed it from a unique enchantment, to a set bonus. You could then enchant the weapon with a weapon damage glyph AND IT WAS MORE POWERFUL THAN BEFORE!!!! (For the Bow and Inferno staff at least)
Why this myth continues to perpetuate is shocking.
As far as I have read, the only reason given to us is they say these weapons are new. I'm skeptical because typically when gear is changed our gear reflects the changes. I suppose that since our previously classified vet arena weapons still exist in the game something had to be called new. The problem for us who have the weapons is that we had vet weapons but now we have normal weapons. While my weapons do not have the bonus, the fact that I ran vet content for them did not change. In my opinion the weapons should have been upgraded.
Here is the announcement thread which is currently 37 pages long with the focus being mainly on customer dissatisfaction. The thread is still open for comments as of this writing.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521860/
MashmalloMan wrote: »Seriously.. we have Rich to blame. I guarantee there were developers against this decison, but had no final say.
You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.
You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.
I actually agree with his point of view. Just like all gear drops in PvE, they get buffed and nerfed, essentially you can see it as if vMA drops got buffed, and new drops got added into nMA.
I mean, I agree that it can be seen both ways, but as long as people see it the way I just described now, they will feel cheated. They will feel like their gear didn't get updated, while those that see it the other way (of perfected are the new drops) they see it as if the gear didn't get upgraded.
Upgrade vs Update depending on your point of view, and imo as long as some people see it as update (80% of the end game community) I don't think it was a good call to not upgrade/update them.
As far as I have read, the only reason given to us is they say these weapons are new. I'm skeptical because typically when gear is changed our gear reflects the changes. I suppose that since our previously classified vet arena weapons still exist in the game something had to be called new. The problem for us who have the weapons is that we had vet weapons but now we have normal weapons. While my weapons do not have the bonus, the fact that I ran vet content for them did not change. In my opinion the weapons should have been upgraded.
Here is the announcement thread which is currently 37 pages long with the focus being mainly on customer dissatisfaction. The thread is still open for comments as of this writing.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521860/
You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.
You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.
I actually agree with his point of view. Just like all gear drops in PvE, they get buffed and nerfed, essentially you can see it as if vMA drops got buffed, and new drops got added into nMA.
I mean, I agree that it can be seen both ways, but as long as people see it the way I just described now, they will feel cheated. They will feel like their gear didn't get updated, while those that see it the other way (of perfected are the new drops) they see it as if the gear didn't get upgraded.
Upgrade vs Update depending on your point of view, and imo as long as some people see it as update (80% of the end game community) I don't think it was a good call to not upgrade/update them.
It is not the cases that a new weapon was added to the drop list of nMA and the old weapon got buffed. That very fact the new weapon that drops in vMA has a new name and the old weapon that now drops in nMA retained its name makes that crystal clear.
You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.
I actually agree with his point of view. Just like all gear drops in PvE, they get buffed and nerfed, essentially you can see it as if vMA drops got buffed, and new drops got added into nMA.
I mean, I agree that it can be seen both ways, but as long as people see it the way I just described now, they will feel cheated. They will feel like their gear didn't get updated, while those that see it the other way (of perfected are the new drops) they see it as if the gear didn't get upgraded.
Upgrade vs Update depending on your point of view, and imo as long as some people see it as update (80% of the end game community) I don't think it was a good call to not upgrade/update them.
It is not the cases that a new weapon was added to the drop list of nMA and the old weapon got buffed. That very fact the new weapon that drops in vMA has a new name and the old weapon that now drops in nMA retained its name makes that crystal clear.
I ain't gonna argue, because they did change set names in the past. Also buffed things in the past. As it stands vMA rewards got buffed and renamed, while nMA got new additional rewards. As I said earlier, it is point of view thing.
I mean, I am fine with farming vMA again, I will be honest, but thing is, ESO was always about horizontal gear progression, and not linear. It was one of it's selling points. What stops them from highering gear cap when they rework CP? Nothing really (other than the backlash). Theoretically nobody is "losing strength" just everyone will be able to farm new and better gear. It is essentially they same as what they are doing now, just in a much much bigger volume. Ye sure, if it was any other mmo, that has linear gear progression, all arguments about upgrading weapons are void. But here? In ESO? There is a reason they stopped highering gear cap during v16 days.
So ye @idk even if you believe the new introduced weapons are the perfected ones, supporting zos in that decision might bring to the thing non of us want. Highering gear cap when they rework CP.
MashmalloMan wrote: »
Personally, I really like their pve equipment balance by offering small stat bonuses to perfected level gear, a good player using imperfected gear vs perfected gear will only see a rise of maybe 1-3% dps, if that.
Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Why should they? You never farmed for a perfected one so you should not have them handed to you
As for the imperfect wepon in normal, its just to be like the rest of the perfected system
MashmalloMan wrote: »Seriously.. we have Rich to blame. I guarantee there were developers against this decison, but had no final say.
This is easy to speculate but in truth we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this.
10:
Q: Why are current VMA and VDSA weapons not being upgraded to their perfected versions?
A: They are not imperfect, you didnt loose any power. Its still the same weapon. Current weapons became a lot more accessible. I made the call for them to not be upgraded, as players didnt loose any power.
You didnt loose anything. If you want the perfected versions, run VMA again.
Yes it may feel arbitrary, i get that, but again when youre kind of doing that kind of balancing act, i made the call to not upgrade them. Blame me (Rich) for it.
You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.
I actually agree with his point of view. Just like all gear drops in PvE, they get buffed and nerfed, essentially you can see it as if vMA drops got buffed, and new drops got added into nMA.
I mean, I agree that it can be seen both ways, but as long as people see it the way I just described now, they will feel cheated. They will feel like their gear didn't get updated, while those that see it the other way (of perfected are the new drops) they see it as if the gear didn't get upgraded.
Upgrade vs Update depending on your point of view, and imo as long as some people see it as update (80% of the end game community) I don't think it was a good call to not upgrade/update them.
It is not the cases that a new weapon was added to the drop list of nMA and the old weapon got buffed. That very fact the new weapon that drops in vMA has a new name and the old weapon that now drops in nMA retained its name makes that crystal clear.
So ye @idk even if you believe the new introduced weapons are the perfected ones, supporting zos in that decision might bring to the thing non of us want. Highering gear cap when they rework CP.
Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Why should they? You never farmed for a perfected one so you should not have them handed to you
As for the imperfect wepon in normal, its just to be like the rest of the perfected system
Adding the original stats back onto our staves that we used to have (spell/weapon damage) would have been a sound perfected version and non insulting change. And the nerfed version we have been using could be rewarded in future nMA runs.
That would have still incentivised more people to run MA for the normal and then likely Vet for the perfected once they got a taste. WITHOUT basically telling vets that your efforts mean nothing now Start again.
Nerfing your vet wpn (all of my vma weapons WERE nerfed), then handing it out in normal and asking you to do the content again is what happened here to a lot of us to cause this pushback.
A meaningful stat would bring it inline with the current perfected/non perfected system.
Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Why should they? You never farmed for a perfected one so you should not have them handed to you
As for the imperfect wepon in normal, its just to be like the rest of the perfected system
Adding the original stats back onto our staves that we used to have (spell/weapon damage) would have been a sound perfected version and non insulting change. And the nerfed version we have been using could be rewarded in future nMA runs.
That would have still incentivised more people to run MA for the normal and then likely Vet for the perfected once they got a taste. WITHOUT basically telling vets that your efforts mean nothing now Start again.
Nerfing your vet wpn (all of my vma weapons WERE nerfed), then handing it out in normal and asking you to do the content again is what happened here to a lot of us to cause this pushback.
A meaningful stat would bring it inline with the current perfected/non perfected system.
sigh... another post with the same disingenuous argument
Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Why should they? You never farmed for a perfected one so you should not have them handed to you
As for the imperfect wepon in normal, its just to be like the rest of the perfected system
Adding the original stats back onto our staves that we used to have (spell/weapon damage) would have been a sound perfected version and non insulting change. And the nerfed version we have been using could be rewarded in future nMA runs.
That would have still incentivised more people to run MA for the normal and then likely Vet for the perfected once they got a taste. WITHOUT basically telling vets that your efforts mean nothing now Start again.
Nerfing your vet wpn (all of my vma weapons WERE nerfed), then handing it out in normal and asking you to do the content again is what happened here to a lot of us to cause this pushback.
A meaningful stat would bring it inline with the current perfected/non perfected system.
sigh... another post with the same disingenuous argument
In what way is it disingenuous?
You are comparing adjusting an existing set bonus vs adding a new weapon with an additional set bonus. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is a brand new weapon that has never been in the game before so in fact, we have always had to grind to get new gear added to the game so Rich's choice makes absolute sense.
I actually agree with his point of view. Just like all gear drops in PvE, they get buffed and nerfed, essentially you can see it as if vMA drops got buffed, and new drops got added into nMA.
I mean, I agree that it can be seen both ways, but as long as people see it the way I just described now, they will feel cheated. They will feel like their gear didn't get updated, while those that see it the other way (of perfected are the new drops) they see it as if the gear didn't get upgraded.
Upgrade vs Update depending on your point of view, and imo as long as some people see it as update (80% of the end game community) I don't think it was a good call to not upgrade/update them.
It is not the cases that a new weapon was added to the drop list of nMA and the old weapon got buffed. That very fact the new weapon that drops in vMA has a new name and the old weapon that now drops in nMA retained its name makes that crystal clear.
I ain't gonna argue, because they did change set names in the past. Also buffed things in the past. As it stands vMA rewards got buffed and renamed, while nMA got new additional rewards. As I said earlier, it is point of view thing.
I mean, I am fine with farming vMA again, I will be honest, but thing is, ESO was always about horizontal gear progression, and not linear. It was one of it's selling points. What stops them from highering gear cap when they rework CP? Nothing really (other than the backlash). Theoretically nobody is "losing strength" just everyone will be able to farm new and better gear. It is essentially they same as what they are doing now, just in a much much bigger volume. Ye sure, if it was any other mmo, that has linear gear progression, all arguments about upgrading weapons are void. But here? In ESO? There is a reason they stopped highering gear cap during v16 days.
So ye @idk even if you believe the new introduced weapons are the perfected ones, supporting zos in that decision might bring to the thing non of us want. Highering gear cap when they rework CP.
MashmalloMan wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Seriously.. we have Rich to blame. I guarantee there were developers against this decison, but had no final say.
This is easy to speculate but in truth we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this.
Actually, we do. Feel free to view this thread where an interview with Rich was transcribed right before the chapter launch where he specifically said "Blame me".10:
Q: Why are current VMA and VDSA weapons not being upgraded to their perfected versions?
A: They are not imperfect, you didnt loose any power. Its still the same weapon. Current weapons became a lot more accessible. I made the call for them to not be upgraded, as players didnt loose any power.
You didnt loose anything. If you want the perfected versions, run VMA again.
Yes it may feel arbitrary, i get that, but again when youre kind of doing that kind of balancing act, i made the call to not upgrade them. Blame me (Rich) for it.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6789337#Comment_6789337
MashmalloMan wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Seriously.. we have Rich to blame. I guarantee there were developers against this decison, but had no final say.
This is easy to speculate but in truth we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this.
Actually, we do. Feel free to view this thread where an interview with Rich was transcribed right before the chapter launch where he specifically said "Blame me".10:
Q: Why are current VMA and VDSA weapons not being upgraded to their perfected versions?
A: They are not imperfect, you didnt loose any power. Its still the same weapon. Current weapons became a lot more accessible. I made the call for them to not be upgraded, as players didnt loose any power.
You didnt loose anything. If you want the perfected versions, run VMA again.
Yes it may feel arbitrary, i get that, but again when youre kind of doing that kind of balancing act, i made the call to not upgrade them. Blame me (Rich) for it.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6789337#Comment_6789337
I did not say or even suggest Rich did not take responsibility for the decision. In the end, nothing happens without Matt Firor or Rich's explicit or implicit approval All the other devs do what Matt and Rich tell them to or approve.
Repeating what I did say is, we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this. That quote you provided offers no insight into the discussions that occurred within Zos.
MashmalloMan wrote: »MashmalloMan wrote: »Seriously.. we have Rich to blame. I guarantee there were developers against this decison, but had no final say.
This is easy to speculate but in truth we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this.
Actually, we do. Feel free to view this thread where an interview with Rich was transcribed right before the chapter launch where he specifically said "Blame me".10:
Q: Why are current VMA and VDSA weapons not being upgraded to their perfected versions?
A: They are not imperfect, you didnt loose any power. Its still the same weapon. Current weapons became a lot more accessible. I made the call for them to not be upgraded, as players didnt loose any power.
You didnt loose anything. If you want the perfected versions, run VMA again.
Yes it may feel arbitrary, i get that, but again when youre kind of doing that kind of balancing act, i made the call to not upgrade them. Blame me (Rich) for it.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6789337#Comment_6789337
I did not say or even suggest Rich did not take responsibility for the decision. In the end, nothing happens without Matt Firor or Rich's explicit or implicit approval All the other devs do what Matt and Rich tell them to or approve.
Repeating what I did say is, we do not have any clue about discussions Zos had concerning this. That quote you provided offers no insight into the discussions that occurred within Zos.
The quote itself is Rich taking ownership of the choice, and that is all. But in context it is implied it was ultimately his decision, and he made it based on reasons not provided. On that, I agree with you. What bothers me is that it seems to be without reason, and despite requests for specifics, none has been offered. Now, on the one hand, they don't have to, they are under no obligation to provide transparency for any decisions they make wrt to the game, which is their intellectual property after all. However, given that this change marks a new precedent and complete paradigm shift in how gear and content are related in this game, and horizontal progression as established, I do feel we are owed some insight into whether we can expect more of such implementations, and what criteria identify gear and content rewards for these choices--likewise, if this is a one off, unique change, why? What specifically lead to dsa and vma weapons being handled differently? I for one would appreciate forewarning with respect to past and future investment of my time and effort.
this decision broke a lot for me as well. the first time i think i had to run more than 100 times to get a sharpened staff.
and i wont forgive that decision. get over it and continue, sure. grind them again, propably yes... but not forgive and forget.
i know they dont care about, but the crown store was closed for me at the minute i got notice of it.
and i still have a storage-only char (mule?) which holds 140+ arena weapons from dsa and msa, collected over the years, a lot of them upgraded to gold (just because i'm stupid) and I just haven't had the heart to deconstruct them, but it's basically the only thing you can do with it now.